This isn’t really related to this video, more like a potential video idea if you have any thoughts about it, but seeing helluva boss in the video and with hazbin hotel coming out soon, it made me think about how vivziepop writes her characters to swear a lot…like a lot, to the point where I think it’s less funny and more distracting honestly. I’m not even a religious person or anything, I swear all the time myself, but I think swearing excessively can usually be a sign of lazy writing and immaturity. Like, yeah they’re in hell, but I’ve seen other shows where the characters use swearing occasionally or for emphasis that are actually funny. Idk it’s something I see no one really talk about so what are your thoughts? Sorry for the ramble. TLDR: Do you think excessive swearing in helluva boss and hasbin hotel is considered immature and lazy writing at worst?
Spoilers, but I’d say one of the worst examples is Akito Sohma from Fruits Basket, she abused her entire family, controlled, gaslit them, almost killed 1 of them, almost handicapped another one of them, and threatened to kill Tohru, then she had next to no consequences, idc what her mother was like, she doesn’t deserve forgiveness from her family
I agree to a degree. The problem is that Akito’s potential journey ends too soon and focus instead on that fact that everyone is free of the curse. Which isn’t too bad because, frankly, I didn’t want to follow Akito anymore. I feel like this also happens in stuff like Steven Universe and Rise of the TMNT. Iffyness on the redemptions aside, they both show how it can be done wrong. With Rise, yes, stories had to be cut and condensed. However, when it comes to the character of Baron Draxum, the responsibility of redeeming him and moving on is essentially Michelangelo getting him an apartment, a job where he literally throttles a child without consequences and doesn’t need to do anything whilst the person he made the life of a living hell, Splinter, is told to forgive Draxum to begin the healing process. Mikey, you’re not a professional therapist. Stop. Steven Universe has the other problem; moving too quick and timeskipping over the actual work. In both cases, it’s very much a sense of “who cares about seeing these characters get reasons to be better and making that harsh journey?”
If you read the sequel manga you learn that she actually does have some consequences. Not sure if it's to the extent that she deserved, but she's not really forgiven by everyone. When Rin lashes out at the others; people seem to make the assumption that all is forgiven with the others between Akito. The truth is that they're just exhausted and don't have the energy to keep hating and being angry at her. Most of them just want to hurry up and sever the ties and want nothing to do with her at that point. In the sequel we learn that she doesn't really have any contact from most of the former zodiac members. (Tohru is basically one of her only friends.) Not only that but she's even been attacked and had to listen to a lot of hurtful things. She doesn't complain, and thinks it's deserved. In Fruits Basket it's easy to hate her, but in the sequel I can't help but feel a little bad for her. It feels like to an extent Akito is the only one who never actually got to move on.
@@kohaiame2691 I just can’t feel bad for her. Everything that’s going on with her is honestly pretty deserved considering her behavior in the first series. Kind of glad that we got to see a character actually face consequences for their terrible behavior.
What I love of Chai's developement is that feels earned, that' why the ending is satisfactory for me. Also in game, just seeing him during the team attacks and cheering up Peppermint, Macaron and Korsica, thanking them between sequences is dope.
I think one of the best ways to make a redemption arc is to give the character pre redemption some standards, moral/ honor codes or that there are people they do care about. I think showing this side of the character to the audience or heroes alike will make the idea of this character redeeming themself more believable.
Or possibly keep them a villain until an even greater villain shows up forcing the good guy and bad guys to team up, reveal bits about them that can endear them to the audience and eventually humanize them through good writing and character development over a long time.
Makes me think a bit of Fury from Darksiders 3. I've got my issues in the story that i can't quite explain, but all scenes surrounding the encounter with Lust are some of the highest parts in the entire Darksiders franchise to me. In the time leading up to the encounter with Lust she's abrasive, arrogant, forceful, ambitious and keeps wanting to have the last word in, and has stated that she wants to become the leader of the Four Horsemen instead of their oldest sibling Death. However, when Lust is seemingly shot dead by her brother Strife, and accompanied by Death and War, they agree to give her the role of leader and kneel to her. That sets her off heavily. For all the propping up of herself that she does and unpleasantness she carries, she knows her brothers would not give in that easily and is beyond affronted by the idea that they'd consider her a superior, or themselves as below her. It's a great depiction of Lust too, not a focus on sexual perversion but instead of an all-encompassing desire for what you think you want, what you think will make you happy. A desire that others have to make way for so that you can get your way, and people will find any excuse to justify these desires.
Every one say zuko is the best redemption arc ever. No, he was a pseudo protagonist that got more screen time than touf. He very easily could have been the protagonist. He was abused by his family and taught bad lessons. Iroh was what helped him see the problem with his ways. He was content to live a life with his grandfather making tea after he saw how much his search for the avatar was hurting him and his uncle. He was scared for not wanting to sacrifice soldiers.
Absolutely hate how Orochimaru had zero to no consequences. I can get Sasuke, who is supposed to be more of a "Lost/tragic antihero" (who still committed SEVERAL war crimes) but Orochimaru??? How is this guy even allowed to continue his sick experiments, let alone live?? It's beyond me.
@samflood5631 tbh lot of characters should have stayed dead. Almost no one died through the entire Great Ninja War arc, not counting Shikamaru's dad (and other adults who had no screen time) and Neji because... just because lol. At the other hand, a lot of characters were revived left and right, a lot of them even stayed alive like Tsunade (and Kakashi a bit earlier)
@@looniemoonie5955 really don’t know what was going through the mind of the author when he made that decision. Did he just forget everything a orochimaru did???
@@anxhelovucinaj1576Killing Danzo (and raiding the five kage summit), working with the akatsuki, attempting to destroy the leaf village and above all tries to kill naruto
The Akzeriuth scene always hurts. For all of Luke's brattiness, he's still a seven-year-old, quite literally with the whole clone thing. The guy's only real father figure was Vandesdelca (yep, that's his full name), as he comments the man was the only one to praise him for his successes, scold him if he screwed up, and took him seriously. Add being the Order of Lorelei's Commandant, and you have a man the whole world respects, including most of the party. The fact he's brainwashed into doing the deed doesn't help matters, but the entire part sans Luke outright swings into Designated Hero territory when it'a revealed _several of them already knew something in regard to said tragedy;_ Guy had full knowledge of Van's plans, Tear had every reason to view Van as a villain, Jade found out key information about the plan, Anise was a mole put on by Mohs, and Natalia heard enough of Luke and Van's talk beforehand to at least have something to be suspicious about, and some of them _know_ Luke is truly seven years old, and they still give him crap which they justify with how he was spoiled and didn't try to improve early on. Also, Van knew from _the Score itself_ that Luke was fated to destroy Akzeriuth, and he uses that to kickstart a war. They don't even give the kid a good reason to actually distrust Van outside of telling him to do more critical thinking for himself and not go rushing in on the authority of others, which breaks the aesop they were trying to set up in the first place. Sure, Luke does change and become less of an ass, but he gets put through the wringer a bit too hard for it to fully work for me.
It's been year since I played Abyss, but I do remember feeling really bad for Luke. Yeah, he was kinda a piece of shit, but it's hard to blame him and, as you said, he was used by basically the only person in the world who really gave a crap about him and whom he really cared about.
Yeah, Luke's my favorite lead for the Tales series, and a standout JRPG protag in general for me, but the party he has are all comprised of hypocritical assholes. A lot of it comes down to cultural differences between the East and West. In the East, taking responsibility is very important, regardless of how old you are, and is very collectivist, so the party left Luke because he refused to take responsibility for what happened, regardless of the fact that he was being manipulated in the 1st place. Family honor is also heavily emphasized, hence why Anise isn't really given much flack even though her actions in the long run costed the group far more than Luke did. The West, by contrast, places more focus on individuality and the ways people can affect you, as such, while yes, Luke's actions led to the loss of many lives, but he's still just a kid who was tragically manipulated by an adult figure that he trusted, and was unaware of the damage and risks involved. Yes, it was for selfish reasons, but at the end of the day, he'd be let off because he was just a kid who wanted to be free from the toxic and confined life he'd been held in and was manipulated by the closest thing he had to a father. By contrast, Anise would be given far more flack if this was made by the West because, while her parents were held hostage, she was still perfectly aware that the people she was working for had ill intentions and never once tried to inform the party or anyone else at any point what was going on.
@@shadowwarrior3444 Reminds me a thing I read on a discussion: in the West a apology is admitingyour wrongs, in the East is being a scapegoat to a group
Bony Clay's final moments in the anime were genuinely heartfelt, sure we know he survives in the end, but it's still sad that inspite of everything they went through, he needed to stay behind in order for the others to escape and the fact Luffy ultimately fails in saving Ace just makes it sadder.
One example of a redeemed villain I really like is the one where they change due to people caring for them or just being around the heroes willingly or unwillingly. For example, Ice King from Adventure Time. At the beginning he kidnaps princesses and tries to force them into marrying him, though you can tell he is mentally unwell and probably doing this because he is lonely. As the other characters learn more about his past as Simon Petrikov and seeing what he has become, they start treating him better and with understanding. After a while, he stops his worse habits and actually becomes kinder and more sympathetic, though he is still insane. With how long they allowed it develop it came across as very natural, especially when you compare it to the "redemptions" in Steven Universe (Peridot excluded, I actually liked her redemption when it happened).
I never really believed the Diamonds got "redeemed", but rather they got the wake-up call they needed to start walking down that path. Its a shame we never got to fully see that arc though. What I wouldn't give to see a timeline where CN didn't slash the last season...
Thank you for providing some more nuance to the Scott pilgrim situation. It’s exhausting hearing people only want to talk about literally only the first line of the entire freaking series when it comes to his story arc.
Literally every video about redemption arcs talk about Zuko, he is THE example everyone mentions. It's a breath of fresh air to see a video about redemption arcs without mentioning him tbh.
Feel like Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho is a good example. Hiei at the start is just a demon criminal looking to cause as much destruction and death as possible and even when he joins Yusuke and his group he's still violent and a jerk, but gradually we see there is more to him and he gradually becomes a more likeable guy and by the end has for the most part moved past his villanious side.
I believe that an issue with a lot of more modern redemption is when it's treated as expected by the writers. Like in what I'd describe as "gacha game culture" where a character is meant to be marketable and reusable, it's frequent that you can have characters either treated with kid gloves in their awfulness or be way too easily "redeemed" by simply showing a tragic backstory, not changing them at all but saying "oh they're still awful, just an ally now so it's fine" or in some instances saying, "It happened off-screen." It isn't exclusive to gacha games but it's where it's most frequent since they have the general vibe of trying to make everyone a character that people open their wallets for.
@@jiin6 A few examples that I've come across? - Carol from Symphogear. Literally tries to destroy the world in the third season because she wants to prove her dad's theories correct. Gets treated as tragic because her dad is dead and because she also dies in the season. In most future marketing and in a later season (and the gacha game spinoff because of course) she's treated as being more or less an antihero. - Aguilera from Kamen Rider Revice. She's one of the leaders of a cult dedicated to reviving a demon that is the main antagonist of the series. She gets backstabbed and then just hangs out with one of the main cast for a day and turns good and her history with the cult is more or less swept under the rug. This was confirmed to have been a rewrite and might have been due to the character being popular (ironically only as a villain). - In Xenoblade 2 the main antagonistic group are (with a couple of final boss exceptions) recruitable in New Game Plus and the overall only real acknowledgement it gets in the writing is, "Well let bygones be bygones." These aren't really gacha games (Xenoblade 2 has a gacha element though) but the overarching idea is just that they easily redeem the characters because of some marketing reason. I just noticed that this trend became increasingly common as gacha games became more popular and it's almost always needing to redeem the villain or excuse their actions SPECIFICALLY so that they can be recruited into the main cast. Fate/Grand Order is a gacha game that tends to do this, there's a chapter where the primary antagonist only redemption is, throwing in, "She had a tragic past and gets betrayed" in the last chapter she appears. In the game the fandom tends to be fine with this type of writing so it happens really freaking often and it's where I first started to notice, "It's because they want to sell this character."
@@Zetact_ Honestly for Xenoblade 2, I hardly consider the Torna blades’ recruitment canon to the main story, as Akhos and Patroka both clearly died on-screen, and while Mikhail would be more likely to survive, I feel his death would’ve been more fitting for him. I think they’re mainly just recruitable for the sake of using them, not an actual redemption.
@@Zetact_ Carol is pretty explicitly still the villain for the entirety of the third season? Like, you can make a character tragic and still be the villain at the same time. She's only treated as heroic when she comes back in the fifth season because she's a) Technically just a recreation of Carol's personality created from the remnants of her memories in someone else's body b) fighting to stop the end of the world. So I wouldn't call her character redeemed? Especially when the gacha is stuff is pretty non-canonical and fan-servicey in the first place. Edit: Also, which antagonist are you talking about for FGO? If you're talking about Tamamo Vitch, then yeah. Tunguska Sanctuary was just badly written as a whole. I don't think Vitch even has a "tragic backstory".
Ah yes, my possibly favorite trope in media as it replicates what we as humans are and that we can change and I'm so happy you brought up Luke Fon Fabre as he's one of the best examples of that trope but I'll throw in others that are also amazing Neku Sakuraba (The World Ends With You)-He starts the game closed off especially when he wears headphones to ignore everyone's voices besides his own which really shows how much he doesn't care for what goes on even after getting into the Reaper's Game unknowingly as he thinks is a joke not knowing the situation and was even gonna kill someone after believing it'll get him out of the game until Hanekoma stepped in and to tell Neku to trust his partner and after knowing the events of what happened to Shiki is what makes him start growing to survive the game and for the sake of Shiki even if it meant putting up with Joshua but he learned to trust him by the end of another incident that happened alongside not hesitating to partner up with Beat which is a dramatic growth of what happened before and it helps that TWEWY drives the trusting your partner aspect in the very gameplay besides the story even getting better results with good synergy and that's only scratching the surface of why I love Neku and TWEWY as a whole for being one of the best examples of redeeming a character Haseo (Dot Hack GU)-When you start the game, Haseo doesn't seem much especially as he first started playing The World and instantly trusted some random players only to turn out they're using him so they can Player Kill him until Ovan came in to save Haseo which jumps 6 months later as Haseo is now known as the Terror of Death and a PKKer (Player Killer Killer) as he hunts down other Player Killers to find where Tri-Edge is that he doesn't take lightly when one of them just says it's a playground rumor as Tri-Edge was a Player Character that put his friend Shino from a coma as it's one of the tipping points for his harsh attitude then later on meets Atoli who he is very rude towards as he gets angry about how The World is a fake and doesn't see the meaning of it being beautiful as it was because of this game, Shino was in a coma and why he has a lot of attitude towards it and pushes people away even though we see snippets that he isn't a bad guy after running a shop and even giving a kid named Bo a break by offering a discount, Haseo was wrapped by his rage to get vengeance for Tri-Edge for taking Shino away alongside being constantly betrayed by people he met and after a certain event where Haseo unlocks his Avatar Power, it seems like he goes power hungry and gets more aggressive than what he usually is but despite that, it's clear he cares about certain characters especially after saving one from AIDA or was worried about putting one in a coma as it's very clear Haseo hasn't mastered to control his Avatar Powers, it's why I believe Haseo is the subversion of the redemption archetype as you already can tell what exactly happened of why he's acting this way especially for me as I was that way in a online environment but I also know that for others they'll see a sociopath that wants a hollow revenge which hey that's totally fine maybe I would be in the same situation if I wasn't constantly betrayed online but it does help that Haseo does eventually opens up and finally admits that he values the friends he made in The World Yukari Takeba (Persona 3)-Now I move on to possibly the most misunderstood character especially with what happens in the answer, Yukari which I gotta say I do dig her growth as she was very rude especially to Junpei but over the course of the game she has learned to grow especially after a situation where her and everyone else was betrayed by a certain character as she was the factor to help out Mitsuru and eventually got her Persona to grow plus even managed to understand Makoto(Minato) as they both lost their parents, and even got to understand everyone by the end right before the final battle now let's move on to the answer and why people hated Yukari for it, I know it's one thing to hate her for not moving on with the death of someone important to her but most people forget that she learned that wasn't the right thing to do and why she accepted the fate of said character but it's insane how some people act like she didn't change when she clearly did and heck it's why the party grew as a result in the answer as they learned and understand each other by the end and if you still don't like The Answer that's perfectly fine but don't be misinformed by what clearly happened and acting like it doesn't exist, which tbf might be the issue of the trope itself cause people will know the characters at their worst before they see them at their best because of first impressions but it's why I really love this trope myself cause us humans always have the ability to change even if some people will disregard you because of what happened before but what matters is if you understand and evolve from the person you used to be and that's what Yukari alongside the previous characters I mentioned are, we always have the ability to change for the better despite our possibly rough first impression
One thing that makes Scott Pilgrim’s development in Takes Off so interesting is that despite being an objectively shitty person, he also isn’t unlikeable. His absolute unearned confidence gets him into trouble, but combined with his earnest passion, it also makes him fun to hang out with. He’s also unashamed of his shortcomings and doesn’t criticize other people for theirs, allowing anyone to honestly be themselves around him-something that the text of the story strongly emphasized as the reason why Kim and Ramona were even attracted to him in the first place. He may be a very shallow, unhelpful person, that will cause you trouble in the long term, but he is downright *charming,* and that’s why he even has a cool gay roommate, two ex girlfriends, and a band in the first place.
It was confirmed by the Scott Pilgrim creator than the comic ending was untouched and that it’s in its on timeline. The show comes from a different timeline. So it’s not the same Scott. No lessons were unlearned.
... Great, word of god - Something that wasn't actually confirmed in the show, and had to be pointed out by the writer in some obscure manner... GREAT WRITING.
@@Mangakamen I don't know how fair it is in this situation when it's two different media that people will watch separately. The author is just saying that these two aren't connected in terms of continuity, so I don't think it has to do with writing
@ashroy9454 ... Well, for one - It makes reference to the original story, that's literally the motivation of Future Scott, and it's blatantly explained. And for two, yes, it doesn't have to do with writing - If you're claiming that the original story is separate, don't include elements that contradict that - Which Takes off clearly does.
If Luke gets at least a fifth of the blame for sinking an entire town into a pool of poison than tear gets another fifth as well, because the whole thing with her trying to assassinate her brother. Was that she knew that he was up to something and was a master manipulator, and she still left Luke alone with him even though she knew he had the mentality of a child.
I agree. It was annoying how the party treated Luke. Van was a master and a father figure to Luke. He had no reason to distrust him, but when Luke asked. questions, they brushed him off
@@tyroi1059 While I like the story overall, I did feel that tear and guy we’re running away from their part of the responsibility with the incident. Even without Guy having some inkling of what was happening, because Van had been talking to him in secret, he was still, the person most aware that Luke was extremely naïve and manipulatable, and as you can tell, Tear was on the opposite end with her brother. Yes he needed to take responsibility because he allowed an ability that he made aware of as being dangerous be abused but even though they had warned him that Van was a dangerous liar, they still left him alone with them. Heck, Ion was almost as active participant as a van, since he had been reading the forbidden score for the grand maestro, and knew exactly what was about to happen, and still opened the door.
@@emeraldpichu1Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been years since I last played the game), but didn't Jade know Luke was a replica? I understand where they were going; Luke needed to grow up and stop being selfish and spoiled, but I feel like Luke's development with Akzeriuth was kind of forced.
@@tyroi1059 while I don’t agree with Jade but at least he was very consistent about being a giant coward who didn’t wanna face his past until he was forced to and being quiet about Luke was just part of him, compartmentalizing his problems.
Yeah Jade knew but didn't say anything but then again Jade is also a terrible person despite his humor and it can be said her is probably the most responsible for creating a lot of issues in the game
A good game that also has redemption as a major narrative point is Darkest Dungeon. Most of the playable cast are seeking redemption one way or the other. But the one that stood out most to me was Barristan, the Man-at-Arms. In DD1 it is hinted at that Barristan suffers from Survivors Guilt and that he feels like he has betrayed his comrades. Then in DD2 Barristans backstory is revealed. He was basically an ambitious lower nobleman that wanted to make his career in the military. Through manipulation and political manouevering he managed to get promoted to commander, despite having no experience in the field. It went as you would expect. Barristans orders were absolutely not helpful and caused confusion amongst his men, leading to his company getting completely routed and massacred (and you get to play this part to hammer it home) with him being the only survivor. This completely wrecked him to the point that he hallucinated ghosts (or was haunted by them, Darkest Dungeon is no stranger to haunting spirits) and him losing one eye in the process (not specified how, but the narrator mentions that it wasn`t the war, but pride). Stripped of his rank and haunted by the ghosts of the past, he went to the battlefield to properly bury his men and giving them last respects. And while he didn`t feel haunted anymore, he never got over the guilt and spent the rest of his life fighting in wars, hoping to "die alone and unremembered, as surely he deserved no better". And in a twist of irony he survived and over the years gained the skills and experience he lacked before, to the point that he got promoted to a Sergeant. And if you complete his upgarde tree, the Narrator of DD2 tells what his future will be: "Humility fortifies the hand and the heart. Behind his unwavering shield, the peasant militia will rally."
Honestly Luke's redemption is by far my favorite character in the Tales series and I love his story. Despite looking like a teen, the guy's literally a child at heart, mind, and body. He doesn't understand things that normal people would because he's been sheltered by his family, and treated with little to no respect by the gang until he changed. But you can't exactly blame him for his actions, he didn't know what was going on because people kept info from him and had to basically learn the hard way of his consequences, he was lied to someone he deemed as a father figure (Van Grants) who actually told him what was right, what was wrong, and scolded him. Sure everyone had some kinda idea Van was bad (like Jade, Guy, etc) but never filled Luke in on it (from what I remember) so they leave him out of practically everything but still expect him to know what he did to Akzeriuth and its people. I understand they're pissed at him but again, you can't expect someone like him to understand that someone who he trusted hurt him, ruined his and countless lives, and never tell him about it or tell him how he shouldn't rush in blindly. It's always about blaming Luke, never the other characters getting blamed besides maybe Anise and her involvement with Ion's fate.
Another good example of redemption: Miles Edgeworth. Another bad example of redemption: Saint Germain (Castlevania anime version - literally doomed the world just so he can reunite with a woman he simped hard for, even after realizing he was being manipulated by Death).
Late to the party, but I don't think Saint Germain is a bad example of redemption. He is truly despicable at the end, serving only himself. However, he died trying to help the heroes against Death, and possibly helped Trevor and/or Dracula and his wife in his final moments. If he was still alive maybe some form of punishment would be in order, but he died and failed to get what he wanted, what point is there in hating him still? Or maybe it's more apt to say that he has not redeemed himself, but that I forgive him because at the final moment he gave all he had to give. Which is maybe not surprisingly very Christian when I think about it.
@@thomaslacroix6011 One good deed does not correct a lot of wrongs. He literally sacrificed and tricked people in order to just have a chance at seeing a woman he had a crush on. The effort and cost did not equate to the potential reward. His last act didn't redeem him. The whole thing just made people pity him at how pathetic he was. Side note: He didn't help Dracula. He helped in tormenting him and his wife by trapping them in a makeshift body, which was going to drive Dracula insane and go on another murderous rampage (Death explained this).
@@neonnwave1 it was never explained how Dracula and his wife returned to life, nor how Trevor managed to escape the castle. If I remember well, the key flash for a moment in the hands of Saint Germain at the end of the battle, suggesting something happened. He was also manipulated by a shapeshifting being as old as humanity to believe he was pursuing alchemy's ultimate achievement, and that fact was revealed only after he was far too gone to stop, the innocents were already dead and Death would just kill him if he didn't finish it. I feel like that should count for something. My personal view of redemption is that at any point a character can be redeemed, if they pay the price, up to everything they have to give. Often for really despicable characters, that means death, or imprisonment even after they have done everything in their power to fix the situation. In this situation, he gave up his life and his dream, so there's no higher price he could have paid.
@@thomaslacroix6011 The key thing is what brought Trevor into the Infinite Corridor and Trevor found his way out of it. As for Dracula and Lisa coming back, it's due to sabotaging the ritual by destroying the makeshift body which released their souls. That wasn't done by Saint Germain. Only saving Trevor was his doing. Yes, Saint Germain was being manipulated but he could have listened to his conscience and said no from the start. Instead he went along with it knowing full well what horrors it would bring. And when Death revealed himself, explained the entire plan and admitted to fooling him.... Germain continued with the ritual when he could have refused in order to save humanity.
Guts's redemption from Black Swordsman arc going foward is my favorite to this day From demonic demon slayer with little care for others into a badass dad of his squad
Not an interpretation it was confirmed to be a separate timeline a “bad ending” timeline. Where he got the girl but things didn’t even perfectly. The comic ending was the “good ending” that stayed perfect. The creator had to reinsure people that evil Scott in the show is not the same Scott from the comics.
Another example of a jerk protagonist being redeemed that I’d like to bring up is Neku Sakuraba, from The World Ends With You. (Spoilers inbound below, obviously…) Sure, you’re probably gonna hate the kid at the start; there’s not much to redeem him and he actively tries to KILL his partner to get out of the game (granted, he thought he would die if he didn’t do so, but he also sucks at apologizing for it later after the misunderstanding was cleared)… but by sticking around the kindness of others like Shiki and Mr. Haneko, you can see how he starts coming out of his misanthropy and tries to support them in their worst moments. You can really see him grow from one week ingame to the next, pushing aside Joshua’s own misanthropy and supporting former enemy Beat as they go from just saving each other to inadvertently saving ALL of Shibuya once they learn of the mass mind-control plot behind the scenes. It’s what makes TWEWY one of my favorite game stories to have experienced thus far… He also gets put through the wringer, like, a *lot*. In some way, it makes his frustrations feel a little more justified when his attempts to come back to life are constantly yanked away, and I guess in some way it balances out his jerkishness.
There is a trope I love writing but I have not found any example of it in other media: a villain that goes through a redemption / face turn purely out of self preservation and pragmatic reasons. As in, the only reason they were doing evil stuff was because they had a safety net and knew they could get away with their crimes, but once that safety net is taken away, they're more than willing to appease the hero's side and essentially join the winning team. I know this video is about protagonists / flawed heroes and I know my rambling is only tangentially connected to the subject of the video, but I thought I should share this anyway.
Have you played Disgaia 5? (Spoilers below) Majorita, in the post game, has to get along with one the main cast or the curse she used to revive herself (make the person you hate the most happy) will kill her.
Off topic but I love the bit at the end about improvement. I too want to keep getting better, for me right now, It's art. You've actually been a huge inspiration to me in trying to improve my art style and writing. So, thanks!
One of the best examples of redemption in a game is Arthur Morgan. He went from being a common outlaw to a good hearted man. He had good in him, since in his journal, he said that while he kills people with his gang, he doesn’t enjoy it because it makes him feel bad. Then he finally tries to fix the wrongs he did, like unknowingly partaking in a scam, hounding a man for money, and killing people. The main thing about it is that he knows he can’t undo his crimes.
Haven't watched rhe video yet, but I really enjoy your channel. Keep up the great work, great commentary and great ideas. There are tons of characters and content I want to see you talk about. Though rather than ask, I want to see what you have in store for us. Here's to a great year for you Kamen!
*Spoilers for Chrono Trigger* For Chrono Trigger, you had Magus, who was originally called Janus and was separated from his timeline in 12000 BC Antiquity by Lavos (main antagonist of the game) when time gates appeared and stranded him in the Middle Ages. There, he was discovered by Ozzie, leader of the Mystics/Monsters, who raised him to become a Lord in a way. While he barely seemed to care about the lives of anyone even after being raised the Mystics/Monsters, he still seemed to think about his sister, Schala, who was forced by their obsessed mother, Queen Zeal, to awaken Lavos for the purpose of immortality. When Magus was Janus, he also didn't use magic. Whether this was an act of respect for the Earthbound Ones (the people who were cast back down to the ground for being unable to use magic in comparison to the Enlightened Ones) or simply because he didn't want to be a puppet to Lavos like his mother is a mystery. Even then, he tried to summon Lavos in 600 AD so he could kill it for his own personal thirst for revenge. He is also responsible for killing one of Guardia's best knights, Cyrus, who was also a best friend of Glenn, and also turned Glenn into an anthropomorphic frog. When the party meets with a second time at the Northern Cape of 12000 BC, and after he mocks Crono for dying to Lavos, the party gets upset at him. He then asks if they wish to fight him. Should the party choose to fight him, he lets the party know that Crono can still be revived by speaking to Gaspar, the Guru of Time. He will then disappear permanently (unless you savescum), and leave behind an amulet than Schala gave him. If the party then decides not to kill them, they will insist that defeating Magus will not revive Crono for them. Eventually, when the party then tries to walk away, Magus then says he'll accompany them, and even still chooses to tell them that Crono can be revived. And then bam, he's in the party just like that with little-to-no consequence or objection from any of the party members. Interestingly enough, if Frog/Glenn is in the party when you decide to fight him, he will tell the other two party members to stay back so he can fight Magus himself. Frog/Glenn then even announces that Cyrus has been avenged after defeating Magus.
I love the Tales of series for how they handle redemption arcs. I feel like they're the best when it not only comes to RPGs, but video games in general.
@@maxmasse1029 Agreed, I think Thorfinn is my favorite character ever written. His journey is extremely relatable to me and he is the exact kind of man I want to be and try to be
I'm really glad to get that copy of Tales of the Abyss for the 3DS when I saw it. I love hunting for games that I long missed out on in their initial debut.
IMO Scott Pilgrim Takes Off feels like a multiverse introduction, it was only one of the many endings that could have happened after the comics ended, with scott getting old and becoming his own dark reflection, while in other iterations Nega-Scott is Scott's own vices and what he hates about himself. ofc its still up to interpretation, but that's just my opinion.
I like the Redemption of Dhar in Indivisible because, even without being forgiven for what he did, he still did The Impossible to atone for his mistake It costed him more than he could ever give.
I've been listening to the indie synth pop duo Magdalena Bay and I feel like this line from one of their songs sums up a lot of characters. "He was a lonely cynic Neither hero nor villain."
15:00 It’s always a trip for voices you’d hear in western toons to come out of characters from very Japanese games Watching this video inspired me to think of ideas for this fanfic. Basically it’d be about Kirby making new friends in the face of a multiversal calamity. I had the idea of Invader Zim being a crass jackass (Due to the reality of his mission being fake setting in) who aside from Kirby is only barely tolerated by the rest of the main cast. Perhaps due to the positive influence of Kirby, Zim would move on from being an incompetent invader turned stupid drunk to a large ham gunslinger.
In Scott Pilgrim Takes Off, I definitely agree that the whole thing could have used one or two more episodes to round everything out properly, expanding on where Old Scott and Future Ramona went wrong and maybe adjusting the plot so that Young Ramona plays an active role in helping Young Scott get back to the past while at the same time giving the Twins some focus. However, I don’t see Old Scott and Future Ramona having relationship issues as an explicit bad ending to the comic. The old timeline is starting from an alternate universe where Nega-Scott doesn’t exist and his character growth is more on par with the movie. Comic!Scott and Comic!Ramona still have their happy ending, as far as I’m concerned.
For Scott Pilgrim, I don't think it really kicks the comic ending in the nuts like you said since that show, the comics, and the movie are all their own timeline stuff. And if the point was you were supposed to learn from Scott, I think the point was something you already touched on. Your personal growth doesn't just stop when you reach whatever goal, that and you have to be careful not to backslide into old bad habits. Which both Scott and Ramona did in that timeline.
@MangaKamenTheRealOne Yeah, it wasn't stated in the show itself, fair enough. I just know the creators said that, and it's also how I approach a lot of things that aren't trying to be a 1 to 1 adaptation. If only to not bemoan every change. 😆 And I don't fully see it as dashing the ending as much as it being another lesson that some people need that you have to actively keep working on yourself and not just have one big adventure and become a better person forever afterwards. But maybe I'm reading too much into Canadian FLCL. 😂
A very different theme of entertainment, but when redeemable characters, especially protagonists are mentioned I like to think about Gumball from TAWOG due, not only him growing *worse* as the season progressed, but him being stated as an awful friend by the show itself, yet the antics of each episode make him incredibly iconic and at the very least he's decent to the people around him when he *wants* to be, or at the very least when the whole theme of an episode is that all the dread he causes is completely unintentional just because he is a massive goofball
Honestly Bowser Jr's Journey should've made it on here for how much they developed the prince's character. At the start he's a real unlikable prick who basically mistreats his adoptive siblings because he thinks that his dad only got as strong as he thinks he is because he's unreliant on his minions and does his dirty work solo, to the point where he went from travelling with an entourage of 7 Koopalings to Morton and Kamek being the last remaining elites of his dad's army still giving a crud about him (ok to be fair some of them were forcefully removed from the story while some deliberately left for personal reasons). Then when he lost Morton and was left all alone with Kamek being the last of his family that he can still cling onto he starts to appreciate the minions more and even recognizes how much of a prick he was to his siblings and caretakers and makes amends with them, including Roy who was the first of the Koopalings to deliberately leave Jr's side due to him being a complete ass in the beginning of the game. Honestly it's such a shame that Bowser Jr's Journey flopped as hard as it is both from a gameplay standpoint and from a sales standpoint because these games are like the heavy hitters in terms of what made the Koopa Troop in my eyes, superior than the Mushroom Kingdom as characters. Even if that game wasn't necessarily good gameplay wise the one final bang Alphadream gave to their literal final product was to give Bowser Jr one of the most emotional and well written development arcs in Mario history, nay, one of the best character development arcs I've ever seen, and for that I respect it.
It's so embarrassing that there are people who still try to act like Forespoken is some sort of underappreciated masterpiece and Frey is an amazing character
One of my favorite redemption arcs is Sandalphon from Granblue Fantasy. He goes from someone angry at the world and trying to destroying, to being forced into the role of being its protector. By the end of his arc, he realizes that people do care about him, and chooses to fulfill his role of his own volition in order to protect the things he loves, not because of some duty. Yet despite this redemption arc, he's still remorseful of his previous actions and does his best to make up for what he's done.
Full metal alchemist manga/brotherhood spoilers: Greed was perfect I mean: starts slightly dickish Then redeems himself And at last died for his friends
A great example to me is Miraculous Ladybug. They decide to banish a child from Paris for working with Gabriel Agreste, but decide to make Gabriel Agreste, a man who was willing to start World War III and destroyed Paris numerous times, a hero, with even a freaking statue in his honour. Oh and nobody knows he's the villain except Marinette, the protagonist, who even kept it a secret from her boyfriend, Adrien, who is the son of Gabriel, and they didn't exactly have a good father and son relationship.
Gabriel winning doesn't sit right with me. They taught about trust and putting trust in others, yet trusting Gabe results in him making a wish on his own terms and making the main heroine promise to never tell his kid about how he was a villain, but remember how he "tried to be a good father" and dies happily.
To me what Made Chole rise and downfall work was when Giving moments to be helped and Redeemed she had Moments to see and realize her Mistakes but only saw the Bee miraculous as a Golden ticket to get loved and Noticed despite it not working out for her as People can be helped at times but will always ruin it for themeselfs than admit some fault in their downfall than seeing somethings will never work
Should we expect a follow-up next week talking about the much less common inverse, corruption arcs? Where a good character slides down toward a much less noble path.
I still need to finish Tales of the Abyss... then again, I'm thinking of just starting a new game to try and get everything. Still need to play some other Tales games, too.
Here are a few redemption arcs I consider good examples: Sunset Shimmer, Starlight Glimmer, and Discord: (Yes, I will address the issue MLP fans have regarding rushed redemption for villains who receive little to no repercussions for their actions) Sunset was the previous student of Princess Celestia before Twilight Sparkle. Her condescending ego and selfish ambitions are what led to Celestia dismissing her but she escapes through a mirror leading to the human world of Equestria where she rules Canterlot High with an iron fist until Twilight and the human versions of her friends end Sunset's reign of terror and throughout the films, Sunset slowly changes herself for the better, becoming part of the Mane 6 but struggling with her past as a cruel bully. Starlight Glimmer becomes Twilight's student after she was shown the consequences of tampering with time travel when she attempted to sabotage the Mane 6's earning their cutie marks as revenge for exposing her scheme of removing cutie marks to control a village, yet received no punishment for nearly destroying Equestria via time travel and given a weak excuse for her villainy. Discord, the embodiment of chaos, while still making mischief for his own amusement has formed a close bond with Fluttershy and it's to the point he's very protective of her (ex. He shows genuine remorse for tricking her into believing he reformed so she'll take off her Element of Harmony, letting her guard down and was horrified when Tirek captured her along with the other Mane 6 and regrets betraying them after Tirek backstabs him. Ken Ichijouji: Ruled the Digital World with an iron fist as the cruel Digital Emperor while in real world is a child prodigy who excels in school. He views Digimon as nothing more than slaves to used and tossed away as a they outlived their usefulness by controlling them with Dark Rings connected to Dark Spires, even went so far as corrupting Tai's Partner Digimon Agumon, creating Kimeramon, an amalgamated abomination, and was particularly abusive towards his Partner Digimon Wormmon. It wasn't until Wormmon's sacrifice does Ken finally realize that Digimon aren't just data but living beings, emotionally breaking down in horror of his atrocious actions. Later on he begins to come to terms with his guilt and after tearfully reuniting with Wormmon, joins the DigiDestined in cleansing the Digital World of the remaining Dark Spires and during the World Tour arc it's discovered that Ken was infected with a Dark Spore as part of Myotismon's plan to revive himself through Yukio Owikawa and conquer both worlds. Hanzo Hasashi aka Scorpion: In the Midway Timeline, Scorpion participated in the Mortal Kombat to seek revenge against Sub-Zero (Bi-Han) for his death, the massacre of the Shirai Ryu and the murder of his family, eventually killing him. Then a new Sub-Zero (Kuai Liang) appears at the next tournament confusing Scorpion until he discovers that the current Sub-Zero is the younger brother of the previous he murdered so in remorse he vowed to protect him. During Shinnok's invasion, Quan Chi flat out reveals to Scorpion that he orchestrated the Shirai Ryu massacre as payment to the Lin Kuei triggering the revenant's wrath that lasted until the Netherrealm Timeline where history repeats itself with some changes due to Raiden's interference and up to MKX where Scorpion is finally freed from Quan Chi's influence. Now going by Hanzo Hasashi, he rebuilds the Shirai Ryu clan to grant shelter to survivors while raising Kenshi's son Takeda after Red Dragon assassins killed the boy's mother. He eventually makes amends with Kuai Liang and kills Quan Chi to avenge his family. In MK11 Hanzo and Kuai are now allies serving as protectors of Earthrealm.
hold on a second 18:06 i dont know anything about Abyss but i recognize that voice anywhere. Thats the voice actor of Haseo from the dot Hack//GU series, a personal favorite of mine and another character that starts as an asshole that later becomes good.
If someone is interested in a story with character focus and redemption I recommend Library of Ruina (game), it has a good story and the 2 best protagonists in my opinion, though a warning is that the difficulty may become vertical.
I'm all for the change in avatar, to represent yourself. I'm used to the swapping of looks by now. However, there's no need to change your tone in with the avatar. Just speak how you normally would, be yourself.
I'd say Vegeta from Sragon Ball Z is one of my favorite redemption arc stories. He started out as a ward (lackey, henchman? I don't remember what he properly was in Frieza's Empire) to Lord Frieza, and when he was thrown away, he began changing. He started as being cold and antagonistic towards the Z Fighters team, but as time went on, he began showing compassion for his son, and the people around him, in his own strange way. He wasn't immediately forgiven, and through every roadblock he faced during his time with the Z Fighters, he learned humility and humanity through his successes and failures. I still have to see the Buu Arc to finalize my statement, so I'll edit this when I'm finished with that.
You know as someone who managed to grab my librarybooks and backpack on the way out and whose sister managed to get her cat when our house started burning leaving a bag of MONEY that you could just pickup in like 2 seconds is beyond stupid.
You know, there’s a lot of redemption arcs that felt really impactful, but one of my favorites still has to be Vegeta’s redemption arc from Dragon Ball Z.
Vegetas really worked because A we see a lot of his trauma and despair about losing his planet and people so we can understand where his bad actions come from and B he had a lot of time to self reflect and was shown kindness from the first time from Goku, both letting him get away on Earth and being there for him when he was dying on Namek. While he still had the edge to his personality, it felt like he had a realistic change in heart, and it took time.
@@DangericeDreams for the most part he kinda just sticks around and it feels like his atrocities go ignored for a long time til the buu arc and even the granola arc. He also partially responsible for the death of half the cast in the first arc
I think flawed male characters are great. As long as it is addressed and there are consequences. My biggest problem is usually the fans that surround them. Look at amrican psyco, walter white, barry, and the guy from fright club. No shame to the characters, the people that idolize them just suck.
@thomasraines1396 Sorry, I am not as familiar with him or watchman. Though he does fit it. They are good characters, just shity people. People think that because they empathize or understand the character a bit, they should emulate them. All of the characters are white men who feel emasculated and like they deserve to be treated as gods because of who they were born. They blame everything around them and decide it isn't what they want, so they should get to burn it down, rather than figuring out anything about themselves or how outhers feel. I know you probley already gotten this. It just infuriats me how media illiterate some people are and how the world promotes this idea of "masculinity."
I never trusted Scott Pilgrim because I never really felt his redemption was showed in the original comic series. Part 5 was a great part to have him commit to being better, but instead Part 6 is still 50% him being a jerk. Redemption arcs NEED payoff. Setup is good, payoff is essential. And that payoff must convince us that the character is sincere about sticking to it
Luke's kinda turned me against the story actually since almost everyone was either aware he was simple and spoiled brat who literally was a sheltered 7 year old or did WAY worse war crimes to their own agency than being tricked by the only respectful authority they had. Like the pity party got me from not just renting the game and watching the cutscenes on youtube. It's not like Laharl in Disgaea where everyone but Flonne has an agenda or war-based philosophy anyway that makes his sour attitude validated. Everyone had the ability to be diplomatic and fair enough for Luke to settle down, but didn't try to stop it.
The biggest thing I've seen about writing a redemption is that you don't rush it, and you make it clear that the character may be flawed/bad but has human elements. The biggest one is probably Zuko, given that his redemption is his entire arc and feels like proper character growth for him. It's all about making a giant satisfying payoff, where the character slowly grows over time until they finally blossom or hit a dark enough point that they end up shaping up to face the consequences head on. I mean, Vivian's character in TTYD follows these. You meet her in Chapter 2 as a villain but it's still obvious she's not as terrible as Beldam, and it plants the seeds for her to move on from her abusive sister.
An important thing is that they admit that they were wrong. Too many were only sorry about their plans not working. There is also "redemptions" where other characters put more effort than said character in that "redemption." I hate how Dracula and Isaac were handled in the Castlevania cartoon since it acts like they didn't do anything wrong.
I thought they were handled alright but from what I understand there was actually meant to be another season which is why the last one feels so awkward and rushed.
@@thomasraines1396 The writing of season 4 felt like they thought they will be given infinite episodes and they did the writing equivalent of shading random dots in the test sheet. The pacing of season 2 was both too slow (on scenes that don't actually move the plot) and too fast (on scenes that featuring the main characters). Season 3 was a filler arc for everybody but Isaac. Alucard is alone in castle then goes back to being alone in the castle. Trevor and Sypha go on vacation then come back from vacation. Hector became a slave then stayed a slave. I'm not going to bother explaining why Dracula and Isaac didn't earn anything.
Spoilers: To me, "Scott Pilgrim: Takes Off" is more a sequel to the movies than it is an adaptation of the comics. In it, Scott actually becoming an evil ex and Ramona becomethe catalyst to that which would make sense since they weren't as well developed in the movie compared to the comics.
14:48 Have you played Dark Cloud 2 by any chance? It came out earlier the same year as Teen Titans and Max in that game also happens to be voiced by Scott.
Credit to Bentham, he didn't get free from Impel Down, but he _did_ succeed Ivankov as the Queen of Newkama Land (honestly, translating "Okama Way" as "Oh, Come My Way" as a play on the phrase kinda stops working after the Newkamas show up since they aren't called "Newcomers", but that's just me) as a result, that counts for something, right?
