I just love to imagine this dialogue between two guards in the Zelda series: "Okay, I guess we gotta call Link because Princess Zelda got captured." "Wh... how could that happen? Why are you so calm about it? I mean... who could ever kidnap Princess Zelda?" "It was..." "No I'm serious. She has the triforce of wisdom, she is an accomplished mage, she is always sorrounded by armed guards and she is usually in a secure castle. How the hell did that happen?" "Bro, the guy who kidnapped her is Ganondorf." "Oh, okay. That makes sense now."
Makes sense. The guy who kidnapped her isn't your run of the mill bad guy of the week. He is a part of the Triforce that the best hero and princess are also a part of.
I mean in the games where she is kidnapped she’s young and inexperienced (like the link to games and skyward sword) whereas games like botw and totk where she’s older and experienced she isn’t captured but instead is holding Ganon back or sent back in time Only exception to this is twilight princess but that’s because Ganondorf use the twili and was able to mind control her or whatever (haven’t played tp before so I’m not the most knowledgeable about it but I do want to play it eventually)
I hope more people take from the fact that just because you’re a girl who can save herself doesn’t mean your a hardened and masculine woman. You can still be cute and girly!! That’s why I love peach so much
I'm so happy Peach is getting more love lately, she's an amazing underrated character, and she was hated a lot before, glad to see that's not the case anymore, she's in my opinion Mario's best character. Peach is a sweet primadonna!
@@Joeeyyyyy Definitely. No matter how good something might be, too much of it will eventually get tiring, especially if there's a quality decline to go with it. The same goes for DiD and GB. Sure, they're both fine on their own, but severe overuse of either trope has unsurprisingly grated on people, currently being the recent girl boss trend. There needs to be some sort of balance.
While the "Damsel in Distress" trope isn't something that I like or care that much for, I think nowadays, a lot of people try too hard to compensate the use of the trope by making every female character into a hyper-competent, super independent alpha "girlbosses." Now, I'm not saying badass women are a problem, I've definitely spoken praises of many. However, a lot of writers fall into the pitfall of believing that a women who can't throw a punch or gets apprehended by the villain is automatically a worse character, so you have tons of modern female characters with literally no personality besides being "strong and powerful." Peach and Zelda might be the poster girls for this trope, but they are still great characters despite that. It just depends on how well the story handles their plot.
A lot try to show them as strong, but instead create cold heartless bullies. Wendy from the new Peter pan remake, for example. Her happy thought was being old and rich dying alone... HOW IS THAT INDICITIVE OF BEING A GOOD PROTAGONIST!? Also a lot just for no reason just spit on men, mocking them for any reason they can find as if it's normal
I feel like Princess Peach (not the mainline games, I’m talking about the rpgs)is a good example of how to write a girl boss correctly. In those games, she is a damsel in distress, yet she is still able to find ways to help out Mario like send messages about where the missing stars are and also give important information. Heck, in Super Paper Mario, she becomes a playable character and still has a personality and voice lines.
@@UltimateDespairado IIRC peach was also seriously offended when mimi accused her of being nothing but a helpless damsel in distress, even insisting the others stand back and let her take on mimi personally
In partners in time she actually seals away the final boss and when the sealing is undone she gives Mario and Luigi stars to lessen the attacks of the boss
The problem with Maya is that her premises often repeated. It's one thing to be abducted but 3 times she's in the wrong place at the wrong time, become murder suspect. But Maya while in distressed never a passive victim. In court by channelling Mia to give Phoenix clues to win the case. She also showed a strong moral principle in one case where her life on the line. The assassin demands Phoenix to do something for him that against his moral principle or else Maya will be killed. Maya still encourages Phoenix to do the right thing and not cave in to the assassin demands.
Not to mention using her own skills to send info back and forth with Pheonix on an “encrypted channel”, as it were, which is the clue that tips them off into putting the assassin on the run *and thus the only reason the crucial piece of evidence is acquired.* Everyone including Maya did their part to save her there. It’s Sisters and Reunion where she’s a true damsel in distress; in Bridge she does do the smartest thing possible in her situation, and I don’t believe for a second it was Mia’s idea. But then Maggey is seriously Damsel’d, so it still has a problem with this 😓
I hate that the writer chose to use Maya as a damsel in distress at the end of the series once again tho. We have Apollo, Athena, and Trucy now. Apollo and Athena were busy with Datz, so why not use Trucy as a damsel in distress this time? She was the one who was threatened and Phoenix was now in dilemma because she is his daughter, he has to save her! Maya got her scene at the second game already, so writer should really use the other character now. Because what I see is that the last game premise is basically the second game. With the first case was her being accused. And the last case was her being held hostage :/ Still, she is a good damsel in distress. She can't save herself but still able to provide support
Five accusations of murder in the entire franchise, including two happening in the same game and one happening in a crossover that only had two unique defendants in the entire game.
Part of the reason why I didn't enjoy the sixth mainline game as much. It doesn't feel like we return to familiar characters. It feels like we're being fed old plot beats to make us feel nostalgic. Instead it feels like lazy writing. "Oh no, she's being kidnapped to force Phoenix to defend the guilty AGAIN. Grandiose."
I like how even if Zelda is in the position where she needs to be rescued, her agency is a character still remains. It allows the viewer to be invested in her story and gives link not just an objective to reach, but a person he and the player wants to save, that they want to see again. It also helps that her arc in Botw about her self-esteem and now in ToTK on sacrifice resonate so much with other people
There's a very believable anxiety to Zelda's characterization in both games that majorly contrasts with her nerdiness that I find to be very relatable. Someone desperately trying to fit some supposed purpose in the world, pushing herself too hard but still trying to do right whenever she can, forming a research team, creating a school to pass the history down to the next generation, personally investigating the miasma causing sickness around the land with her most trusted, and effectively authoring her own prophecy to set up Ganondorf's defeat in the future. It really does feel like her legend by the end of it.
My headcanon is either that it's not Zelda but Hylia who is useless. Since Zelda without her spiritual powers or Triforce connection is actually pretty badass. In Skyward Sword she managed to survive two provinces all by herself. And BoTW Zelda can be a real badass and can kill thousands of mooks with an ancient sheikah tablet. Or that Hylia is a dick and hampers Zelda and Hyrule because Hylia wants that hot Link ass.
Does she have agency in BotW though? Apart from the fact that she's doing something difficult (holding back Ganon) as opposed to sitting in a chair, doesn't she play the same role as Rapunzel in the classic story? Rapunzel is stuck in a tower until a knight comes to rescue her. She has only one thing she can do: wait and call for help. Once the knight arrives she lets down her hair to aid the knight in rescuing her. Zelda is stuck in a castle until a knight comes to rescue her. She has only one thing she can do: wait and call for help. Once the knight arrives she aids the knight in killing Ganon to rescue her. Zelda has a lot of character in BotW, we get to explore her past and she's great, but as far as I recall she isn't able to make meaningful choices, which is what agency is
Speaking of Damsel in Distress, in the Scooby Doo live action movie. Daphne getting tired of being a damsel learns to be independent and studies self-defense…literally the next scene she fails and gets captured lol.
It’s definitely not the trope that is the issue: it’s all about how it’s used and how often you use it. Same can be said of just about any trope. Also, the Feminist Frequency joke was made all the more sweet because Feminist Frequency is no more. Thank you for that. Very appropriate and a fitting way to celebrate its end.
I think that Anita Sarkeesian p i s s e d off the wrong man and he basically told her to check herself before she wrecked herself, she tried to boll up, and he caused her to be shut down. Also, I would not be surprised if she ends up in prison soon for her misdeeds, and that she is an even worse serial murderer than Aileen Wuronos or Countess Bathory.
@@wakkaseta8351 last time i heard of that podcast a lot of anitas workers were mad at her for her legit not paying them anything at all. idk what happened after that
@@wakkaseta8351 I’m not sure what happened myself because I avoided Feminist Frequency like the plague, but yes, Feminist Frequency is done. That much I do know.
I really enjoy FemFreq videos for the most part since I found them comprehensive and the vitriolic backlash she received from the Gamergaters was absolutely atrocious. That being said, I'm curious to know what Anita has done to warrant these critical takes or if it's literally just sexism. If someone could enlighten me on that, I'd appreciate it.
I still don't know why people hate the trope so much. Not everyone can defeat anyone who stand in their way and not every character should be a killing machie. Saving the "princess" is funny in my opinion. I mean, I hate more the trope of: I'm a bad guy but that's good because I have a bad past.
I also don’t think a villain having a tragic backstory is a writer trying to make a character “good” it makes them empathetic. Explaining why a villain acts the way they do isn’t necessarily justifying it.
The overtly hostile reaction to the troupe is honestly just people assuming sexism where none exists. I'll bet that nobody has ever actually written a woman getting kidnapped and needing to be rescued as a way to suggest women are weak. I'm tired of that frankly extremely sexist assumption. People can remove agency from a character, even a female one, for the purpose of the story. They can play the troupe straight. It doesn't mean women are suddenly objects just because the story has her needing help from someone. It's an oversimplification spouted by tactless ideologues who don't actually care about good stories and just want their "progressive" politics thrown in.
I just hate how Hollywood and toxic feminism view the damsel in distress in ANY form is seen as sexist despite the context even when it’s done well because it’s demeaning for a woman to seek help from a man in any shape or form. Like you said when’s it’s done well it works.
We all know that the trope is not bad. It's the execution that can make it bad. Nothing more, Nothing less. Oh, and: "Your princess is in another castle!".
New trope: The Rule Of Execution states that the limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given trope is directly proportional to how well it was executed.
A tried-and-true method to test whether or not your damsel in distress has been reduced to a mere plot device is the frequently used "interrogation scene". How a victimized character responds under duress - physical or not - all convey a degree of character writing. How does she respond to threats to herself? How does she respond to threats to her friends and family? Does she point the villains to an innocent person to protect the identity of the real target the villains are going after? Does she lead the villains into an ambush by her allies knowing the risk that the ambush may fail and backfire on her allies? Good writing is not necessarily to have the damsel capable of resisting duress or escaping. She may buckle and confess under very specific types of threats, and that would bolster the character writings of both the damsel and the villains. Good writing is to have as much information about your character as possible. That's how a damsel in distress avoids being reduced to a mere plot device. That's how every character avoids the same fate.
Ok. The Damsel in Distress trope exists because there is no higher motivation for humans than love. It overrides even our desire to survive. We will do things we never would otherwise with this motivation. The reason this is a trope is not because it's lazy or it's sexist and men are all evil or whatever anyone says. It's a trope because it's universal. You want to know why Peach gets kidnapped all the time? Because her strengths are not in combat. She has magic that is for protection, growth, and healing. Meaning, if a turtle army would want to take over her land and maybe use those powers, they would have to steal this person. It has nothing to do with her being a woman. And who comes to save her? Not her subjects. They are weak, and frail. No. It's a plumber who loves her. Someone with no real combat experience. Just a good set of legs and a dense mustache. Yet, because of the motivation so basic and pure in humanity, he succeeds. You want to know why Zelda gets kidnapped all the time? Because she is the reincarnation of a goddess and rightful wielder of an artifact that grants magical abilities and a wisdom far beyond normal people. However, this artifact is a piece of a threefold set that, once brought together, has the power to reshape civilization and the world. Normally, none would be able to match Zelda with these gifts, but one that can is one who holds another piece of the artifact. This artifact grants nigh immortal strength to it's wielder. Through conquest or trickery, the one who has the power seeks further might. This would set it's eyes to the one with nigh infinite magical power. Once gained, he would not want to kill Zelda. If he did, she would just be reincarnated somewhere else one day. So he keeps her locked up until the last piece, a substantially weaker, yet very much necessary piece, of the artifact is brought to him by a wielder that could be anyone, anywhere. These examples each have nothing to do with what sex the ones being captive are. It is because of their abilities and their kingdoms that the invaders want. Now, as for why the protagonists are male...I'm sorry, this may be unpopular to say but it's been proven true, but on the whole men will have the thought process of "Screw it. I'm going to bring her home myself." more than women. It's general human nature. Is it an absolute state for either sex? No. Of course not. But, on average, men will step in front of a woman to defend them from something threatening them. Not because of "chivalry" or "Toxic Masculinity" or whatever. Because a man tends to think of active solutions to problems and women tend to think of passive solutions. Now, does this mean Mario or Link couldn't get kidnapped and Peach or Zelda have to embark on a quest to rescue them? Absolutely not. I'd love to play as Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, or Twilight Princess Zelda. As for Peach...well, something not involving a "vibe scepter" would be preferable. But, to be clear. I don't want to play a game that is just a palate swap of the original games. I don't want Zelda with a boomerang, hookshot, and huge hammer. I want a game catering to HER style of pursuit. Being a wise, magical person, this could be a partial RTS and RPG style game. And Peach? This is harder because her abilities are so passive, but, again, an RTS/RPG style game where she is convincing other kingdoms to help her would make more sense to the character than "Suddenly is Mario, but float."
Another good example on how you could do a Damsel in Distress right, is Marina from Zig and Sharko. As she does show in multiple episodes that she can stand up for herself, but it has its cake and eat it too. Where she's often a Damsel in Distress when she's naive towards what's happening around her, which leads to Sharko needing to save her
Yeh she very naive that zig trying eat her like every zig try stuff to capture marina but end up defeated sharko even maria even angry about when zig di some stupid stuff
It’s pretty funny that Princess Peach is probably the poster girl for the DID trope but have been one of the better examples of it due to the diversion or inversion of the trope…..despite the times she played it straight. Goes to show how it’s all about how the characters are handled.
The idea has been being toyed with for way longer than you'd think. In classic literature like Don Quixote, Orlando Furioso or the Hunchback of Notre Dame, the "damsel in distress" is someone who doesn't even care about the knight in shining armor and the exploration is more about the obsession that the core characters have over the object of their affection. In Arthurian mythology, Guinevere is the "damsel" but Lancelot's effort to "save" her ends terribly for everyone involved. In a work as old as the Iliad, Chryseis is the "damsel" but it's more what she represents that is the driving force of the plot - Agamemnon offers to return her to Achilles if he rejoins the battle and Achilles more or less responds with, "You really think that's all this is about?" In video games the damsel has been convenient because there wasn't really a good amount of space on the disk to make a full narrative and a lot of people don't care for the story anyway so a shorthand excuse is good as any other. It's probably why series like Sonic or Megaman can avoid the damsel formula by simply saying, "The villain is trying to take over the world again." It perhaps comes across more unfavorably in non-RPG games because they have historically not had the opportunity to do more complex narratives.
I've been watching the new Pokemon Horizons series and one thing I've noticed is that there were several occasions where the protagonist Liko has been placed in damsel in distress situations, yet she still takes on active roles/stances rather than waiting for one of the other characters to come in and save her: *She gets hunted by Amethio for the pendant but makes the effort to get away and faces the Explorers without hesitation * She insists on saving her Sprigatito rather than waiting for Friede to do it and fights back despite being overpowered * When Spinel wipes her memories and leaves her stranded in Levencia, she makes the effort to go back home & then actively takes part in the hide & seek challenge since she thinks it’ll help Nidothing * When she realizes her pendant was taken, she fights alongside the others to get it back and occasionally takes charge These moments follow the same beats as the trope but still feel like organic subversions where Liko chooses her own path to take in the story.
One of the few people that I came across that said Liko being a damsel in distress doesn't fully makeup the character. Good points that you made and shows that there is a balance that is needed.
For me a damsel done right is Lillie, it’s not just because I have her look and she my fav. Here me out, Lillie is trouble and need the player to help but, she attempts to get stronger but not just for herself but her Nebby and even mother. Later stand-up to her. We also explore of her character. She takes a more active role that people consider herself as main protagonist. And Ultra she supports the player in a few battles. Trying to save her mother and also Alola. But that’s my take.
Thinking about, Dedede could be a 'Damsel in Distress' in Kirby Triple Deluxe, being kidnapped by Taranza. But what I like about it is, it is used to show the extent of friendship Kirby and King Dedede have in the series, and how King Dedede is no longer just a pure evil bad guy but a friendly rival to Kirby. And plus, he provide a lot of help in the battle against Sectonia, freeing Kirby from her vines and throwing him to get the Hypernova ability.
Peach is the face of this trope because even though she breaks the trope so many times she also plays it straight far too many times to be considered a bad fit for her
I feel the issue with damsel in distress is that in itself it's not really problematic, but the amount of negative baggage it has it tends to be put aside in recent works, which I don't really oppose to. Again, I believe tropes must serve the story, so asking "why should I put a damsel in distress situation here?", "how does it contribute to the plot?", "is it in-character for both perpertrator and victim?" and so on; if there's no good answer to questions like these, it's better not, but if you do put a good answer, then you have to write it in a good or satisfactory way, but you'll also have to take that baggage.
My favorite trope is Breasts of Steel, where it strong woman have large breasts, I guess the reason why I like it is because people who complain about large breasted woman like Tifa being sexist for having big breasts, Don't understand character design or visual ques,
Your princess is in another castle. Also the line you said, "tropes can evolve" does make sense. As time moves on things do change and when things change the tropes need to adjust to it. Basically play around it rather than use it for basic niche. Not to say using it as a basic plot isn't a big thing. Its just won't get you any awards.
I think it's important to realize that the Mario Movie "Woke" problem was simply due to the recent trend of terrible movies that have "Strong Female Characters". Changing your opinion after receiving new information (like seeing that Peach was not like those characters) isn't grifting, it's being intelligent and reasonable.
I agree. I think people like MangaKamen are heavily misunderstanding the people who were worried about the “Woke” problem infecting the Mario Movie after seeing the pic of Peach in her biker outfit looking confident. After having to deal with so many shitty movies, tv shows, comics, and video games that push the strong female character type in the form of a try hard, obnoxious, preachy, condescending, unlikable, and poorly-written selfish mary-sue bitch of a character, can you really blame them for being concerned? You can only blame them for having limited knowledge on the Mario Franchise, that’s all. But after having to deal with *so much* Hollywood’s lecturing of what they consider politically correct, disingenuous pandering, virtue signaling bullshit, and their toxic misandrist feminism, the concerns were kind of understandable. It’s one thing to have people who will defend Hollywood and the western mainstream’s toxic lecturing and disingenuous use of certain types of characters, messaging, and themes, but it’s another when you have people who completely misunderstand the people rightfully criticizing Hollywood and the western mainstream for their shitty messaging, “political correctness”, and whatnot, calling them “grifters” and “stupid” for being rightfully concerned about a recent piece of media that’s coming from the corrupted filth known as Hollywood and the western mainstream because the undeniable truth is that all of this fucking toxic progressivism and virtue signaling bullshit that’s been plaguing western media and even killed off mainstream, pop culture franchises such as Star Wars like a virus epidemic is getting out of hand. I’m sick of all of it and it needs to burn to nothing. This current world of western media needs to fucking die. Look at all of the damage it’s done and try to convince me that all of this filth and grime made by these corrupt human beings doesn’t deserve global purification. Is it wrong to show caution and concern about an upcoming piece of western media or localized media after everything that these filthy, lecturing, “politically correct” vermin have done? I’m sorry for the edginess but my pure fury, frustration, hatred, and contempt of the current state of western media couldn’t be any more powerful.
yeah if this movie came out 2000's or early 2010's i don't think most would bat an eye at that but after so many movies with poorly written "strong female characters" i think people had every right to be skeptical and while the films version of peach did turn out better than expected i still don't think it was perfect, she's definitely better written than a lot of recent female characters in modern movies but one problem i had with the films portrayal of peach is that she's was kinda lacking a bit of the sweet and kind personality that game peach is known for.
Yeah, the way the trailers, promotion, and interviews presented her certainly didn't help matters. People weren't exactly wrong to be skeptical, it just so happens that we were stuck with grifters as well. That said, while Movie Peach was certainly far better than characters like She-Hulk, I still feel like she wasn't a good adaptation of Princess Peach. She wore the dress, but in terms of personality and capabilities, she just didn't feel like Peach to me. I feel like that's still reasonable.
There are also plenty of manga/anime where they reverse it (girl is more powerful/competent then boy, but boy tries to improve himself so he can protect SAID girl from the biggest of threats)
This video mostly focused on video games, but I think this trope is very interestingly utilized in anime and other media. One Piece is a great example for how it can be done right, as in contrast to many shonen, it doesn't turn the damsel into some powerless trophy, but uses the situation to expand on their characters and tighten the bond between the main cast.
I think one part that especially helps P4 is that most of the characters who become damsels in distress don't stay that way or at least don't do it lazily. The majority of them become party members with their own individual identities and stories, converting from damsel in distress to ally. Mitsuo Kubo was in this strange in-between of damsel and enemy where they still need to get him out of the Midnight channel, cause he'll die if they don't, but also need to directly question him and find out if he is really the actual murderer. Finally, there's Nanako, who's the only one that plays the trope straight. This stills work though, since she's the only one after multiple instances to do this, but also the most logical and developed instance. She's a small child who the player has grown attached to and cared for over the course of the game. Her being kidnapped invokes a serious Mamabear reaction from the player, especially with how the dungeon reveals her trauma and insecurities, showing just how vulnerable she is.
Women can be in trouble. Women can need men in some instances. Men can also be in trouble. Men can also need women in some instances. I'm tired of people telling me what can and cannot be portrayed in media.
At least Maya has actual supernatural abilities. Which makes her more of an actual witch than all the women that were burned at the stake all through history during witch trials.
And in that game in particular, the town is whipped into such a frenzy about witchcraft that it would not have made sense if she had not been accused of being a witch at least once. Spirit Channeling is a form of witchcraft within the Judeo-Christian canon and so she actually would be considered a witch. The thing that would have made it more interesting though would have been if she actively channeled someone dead in front of people and then we'd see what would have happened to that trial system if there was a witchcraft done that didn't fit 'the book's' rules of witchcraft.
Zelda, while usually not in the frontlines or as an active party that's not ST, her support is the key for Link to actually finish his mission, such games as OoT, WW, TP, SS, BOTW and TotK... without her Link would be a sitting duck. Hell, even in the original, Zelda split the Triforce of Wisdon in 8 pieces so Ganon couldn't get it. Princess Peach, Admittedly one of my favorite Nintendo girls in general, she's not just a damsel, or as a lot of feminist rethoric paint her, a "trophy" for mari to save, Peach in a lot of games shown her as caring and benevolent, and specially in a lot of RPGs and Strikers quite sassy (Her attitude in Mario Strikers Charged was such a delight to see) so i usually ignore any of those complains about the Mario Movie making her a Boss Girl, where, bruh, she always has been shen she's allowed to be shown Also great analysin on the P4 characters! you nail it right in the head
Can’t say about anything about the opinions on Peach after the movie’s release. But prior to release? People had every right to be skeptical about Peach’s portrayal due the abundance of badly written “girl bosses” in recent years. If it was released in the 90’s or 2000’s no one would’ve batted an eye. Maybe not no one, she ain’t perfect, but there would’ve been *FAR* less groaning. Also, she was a brat in Strikers Charged when things didn’t go her way. Which I found hilarious.
Your princess is in another castle. I loved the fact that many characters that were damsels are now becoming active parts of the games they're from or in some other way. And I loved that this started early on with Peach in the first RPG and in the Paper Mario games.
I mean… nah I can’t sugarcoat it. As a Maya Enjoyer, I have to agree with it. Although her powers have been useful and when she contribute without them in the cases, her trope of being framed of murders has been so repetitive that it became a meme on its own. Hell even when she comes back to AA7 (PLEASE CAPCOM, ITS BEEN 7 YEARS. AT LEAST TELL US THE DEVELOPMENT HASN’T BEEN CANNED YET!) we’ll be there with our wristwatches just to see how fast she’ll break her “being framed” record. Although I’ll say if the AA Writing Team either decided to finally give Maya a rest or to subvert her trope on a good twist on AA7, it will be a surprise to see and in a good way. Thought the chances of them pulling that are slim, so we’ll just have to wait until then. P.s don’t worry Kamen, you won’t be executed by the Ace Attorney Fandom for not liking Maya like we do… well I lie, I won’t be taking part of it. The rest however… yeah you better disappear like Gumshoe before they find you.
@@TyshaggyGaming it will be heartbreaking to see, but at the same time it’s the logical step to subvert the trope. But I’ll be done with ur as long as the murder was like self defense, cause if it was with malicious intent… man it would be a 180 to her character.
I don't think I heard you mention for Wind Waker Zelda, that at the end she helps you fight by using the light arrows, and while still in the dress on top of it.
19:44 Credit where it's due, it wasn't the jumpsuit or her fighting _themselves_ that were getting people worried; it was more of a warning sign due to the on-going trends that Hollywood has been following, and considering that apparently Miyamoto-san had to keep Illumination on a tight leash during production, we should all be _very_ grateful that he kept her from being turned into another Carol Danvers or Rey Skywalker... 31:00 ...Oh, crap! Give me a sec... *_"YoUr PrInCeSs Is In AnOtHeR cAsTlE!!!1!!"_* ...Did I do it right, Mister Kamen?
If the only time you'd like the damsel-in-distress trope is when it's subverted or inverted. Then you just hate it period, No shame in that, Just don't pretend it's anything else.
No, that's not how that works. You don't get to twist what is said in this video: "If you were to ask me, the trope is at it’s strongest when it’s being inverted or averted, and it’s at it’s weakest when it’s played straight, and it’s at it’s worst when it actively removes agency from a much more dynamic character."
@veilure No it isn't. I even say at the end of the video: I like to believe that no trope is completely bad, even the damsel in distress one. Sure, some tropes get overused, and some writers often over use them, or try to subvert expectations to shock the audience… That isn't what I said at all.
@megabear8905 First, if you weren't quoting me directly, you need to be clear about that - When you leave a comment, you're responding to the video so you need to be clear about hat. As for your other point: " If the only way you can use damsel-in-distress trope without murdering character agency is to subvert and play with the trope then why ever use it at all? And what would you recommend to add tension instead?" I literally gave an example in the video with Marian. You have the character grow from the experience of being a damsel in distress, you can still use it straight, but you have to have it be able to work for the development of not just the hero but the victim. Ain't that hard.
Small reminder. Children being kidnapped is a damsel in distress trope in everything but the victim themselves being a kid/baby. So it's never an issue of the trope but just make a good story. Tropes existing is like complaining that fast food restaurants sell unhealthy burgers. People are more worried whether those burgers are affordable or good verus being unhealthy. When internet people start talking "unhealthy fast foods", they are now forcing their view of a product on other people instead of giving an opinion of a product. Tropes are a thing that happen and almost any trope, even the negative ones, can be used properly. Ever pay attention to a good comedy movie? The main characters are mary sues by definition most people use.
I think most of the time the issue is the damsel in question is used as a mcguffin for the character and nothing about the character, affiliated characters or even the plot is built upon in any way other than that
The point of a damsel in distress is that she (because she is a woman) is distressed (extreme: anxiety, sorrow, and/or pain). Trapped somewhere unable to escape: Sorrow. Stuck holding off a monster for a thousand years or else the whole world would be overrun by evil: sounds Very Stressful. Girl suffering from an ailment that is leading her towards death with every passing moment: Pain. Basically the element of a girl saying “I can’t do this, I need a hero” and yes, it has to be a girl. Hence the word “damsel” a young unmarried woman. That’s not to say you can’t go on a journey to help a distressed king, or your grandfather, or some other differently aged male or female that may or may not be in a relationship, it’s just no longer “a damsel” in distress. It’s a “King in destress” a “kingdom in distress” a “mother in distress” “your horse in distress” etc. To say you can’t “play it straight” and have it be good or even great is hogwash. “Though I am powerful, I cannot accomplish X because of Y” is all you need to do. “This powerful king has the power to restore the land, but is trapped inside a magical box & no one else is strong enough to free the king from the hands of the evil squizard” King in distress. “Local lady chief is utilizing her power to protect the town from an ever increasing winter. She could go out and solve the problem, but her people may die if she doesn’t resolve it soon enough. It’s up to you, to resolve the problem quickly.” The lady general made queen regent to the kingdom is beseeched on all sides, she is forced to marry the untrustworthy king of another nation to form an alliance to help the kingdom she is momentarily ruling pose a strong enough stance against the neighboring kingdoms. It is her duty to defend the kingdom left in her care and being the wise tactician she is, sees this as the only means by which she can do so. She does not fight the man, though she knows he carries not the best reputation, but yields to any advances he has because she is in need of his forces.” There are many different scenarios where you can make the “Sorry I can’t do anything. I’m a helpless attractive girl and you must save me” scenario work. Heck you can even make a random daughter that was kidnapped and whose parents are about to be murdered a story too. You just have to put in the legwork.
Just because a trope is a trope doesn't mean its bad. Its really just whether its an excuse for the writers to not give the character a personality. Obviously people harp on this one for current year reasons. But there are plenty of tropes for males that can suck too. The surface level people complain about the trope, genuine people complain about the execution of the trope.
Not to mention that Nintendo had to step in to apparently tone her down and even then, she literally shits on Mario with the obstacle course scene and doubting his skills. I know some people did overreact, but for that movie it wasn't a grift, it's just the movie was decent, so the complaints were ignored
@Rediscool9 sorry, condescending was the word I meant to use, when she tries to cheer him up but she says she got it on the first try and yes I know that she says she has lived there her whole life but it's in bad faith.
Kyrie in DMC I feel like gets way too much hate. Maybe her character wasn't completed since DMC4 was a rushed game, but when I played through 4 again and read the light novels, she is just supposed to be a supporting character who is this kind girl who is just a normal human and not a fighter. There are scenes that speak to how saintly she is like how she was going to risk her life to save a crying child and how she didn't run away when Dante attacked the order of the sword. Post 4 she ran a orphanage and soup kitchen(essentially) and provided aid to those hurt after the Order of the Sword debacle. The only thing I hate was the moment she got upset at Nero hurting Credo and not trusting Nero.
When it comes to this trope, I feel it goes constantly misused to disregard a character seen as inactive or non-combat focused, when as you said it's all about how the trope is used. When it comes to Zelda, she isn't a damsel because that is what her character is defined too be, it is because of what circumstances she is put into, in Twilight Princess, while I have issues with her character wise it at least made sense for why she's inactive, it comes off of a choice she made saving her people. In BOTW she isn't really someone who's made to be a fighter and her entire arc is about unlocking her powers, but this doesn't make her weak, not everyone is built around kicking ass the time, it's actually a very realistic thing to have someone be weaker because they are out of their element or aren't like everyone else, it also adds diversity to the world. Zelda isn't less capable than them, she just hasn't had the same experience as them due to her full potential not being yet shown. When Zelda helps out in the final battle its always like she's giving a big "take that" toward the antagonist because now nothing can stop her from helping out. Even in Phantom Hourglass, I never understood why Tetra gets hated in that game because her being kidnapped is the point, she isn't kidnapped because that's what defines her character, she was kidnapped because she was IN character, she was brash and wanted to tackle the ghost ship head on and her being captured was just a coincidence. The only Zelda's whose role specifically defines her as a Damsel in Distress that it consumes her identity are Four Swords and Zelda 2. Because her agency in return is robbed Even Amy Rose is misunderstood as a damsel, in games like SA2 where Eggman holds her hostage, she isn't really damseled, its actually everyone in the room, Eggman just used Amy as the vehicle to pilot his upper hand, when in reality he could have done it to anyone, he just happened to choose the right time to use Amy. In that case Tails is dangered too because he is stick in a situation where he also needs help, as is Sonic. It was also kind of the point that Amy was out of her element around that time, she wasn't as combat ready as the rest of them were, she just put on a brave face to feel like part of the team. While her entire role in CD was used in this way, it also contextualized Sonic's role in Little Planet, it allowed him more of a lens to explore the world beyond stopping Eggman, but it was also Amy's character that put herself there due to her determination to meet Sonic. I'll even add the extra layer here and say a character being a plot device isn't a bad thing, as long as it can be used to help the story in some way then its fine. Zelda in Spirit Tracks is a good example, she's a plot device in her body is needed to resurrect Malladus, yet her spirit being with Link and helping out still allows her to develop as a character. You can even just use them to tell a story. I'm also a MASSIVE Peach fan if my icon hasn't made that clear and I hate how she's always defined as a Damsel to a tee, when it's only the 3D titles or 2D ones that do this (and even so not all of them)
I think what bothers people about Tetra's role in PH is that it's following up and will naturally be compared to WW where a lot of people took issue with her characterisation when she becomes Zelda. While she has imo a realistic reaction (I think a lot of us would act as shocked and reserved as she was), it contrasts a lot with how Tetra has been established beforehand. Then she's locked in a basement and doesn't show up at all until you learn she's been kidnapped offscreen. Zelda helping you in the final battle is super iconic, but I can see why a lot of people dislike Tetra's treatment in WW after the Zelda reveal. This makes her role in PH even more disappointing as she gets kidnapped, has a lot less screentime (even though she's characterised really well in the scenes she's in) and the constant "Save me Link" visions you get at points in the game. I love PH a lot but I do think it's a shame how Tetra was handled, hell I'm not even against the damsel thing, I just wish she showed up more.
I think characters are the best when they are developed as characters first and their role in the story comes second. For me this is true when it comes to the damsel or the "girl boss".
To be fair the only protagonist in Ace Attorney that hasn't been arrested/accused of murder is Apollo. I kind of want Ace Attorney 7 to have a case where Apollo is arrested for murder when he's coming to visit the WAA. Set the murder on a plane, I think that'd be a fun callback to Investigations.
One Piece uses damsels in distress, and distressed dudes, very well. The distressed characters are often members of Luffy’s crew, who we know are very capable, but are forced into situations that make them helpless. That, along with the abuse they suffer at the hands of their captors, makes us want to see them saved, and builds tension, knowing that if the others don’t hurry, it may be too late to save them.
There are a number of things that we do need to look at and question. If we look at the raw unfiltered plot device it is then a simple story that can be told within 5 to 10 minutes which looking at how most historic folk lore tales came to be was the length of most bard's songs. Next when we look at who the damsel is it is usually someone who has the power to change the fate of those within an selected area, which if we then again look at historic records and folk lore are told during a time where the strength of leaders and armies we tied to the stability of a region and a treaty through marriage by leaders was binding. In the earliest of video games where plot based video games had to be simple with its story to a point due to the limited amount of data storage and processing, any backstory had to be given in a user manual with the game and even then those games were simple, one of the biggest titles that did have a fully played out story was a series of quick time events accompanied video files. The thing that has made this story method change is how we consume media, we consume too much of it to a point where we get obsessed more over how we want to see characters and want to see them do everyday stuff where we are then watching a reality TV show. Fact is the story method is too simple for modern audiences to follow for they are constantly looking for distractions from the main story where they are more obsessed with finding easter eggs and animation mistakes than following the story. While I can see how people have a issue with characters like Princess Peach, it is foolish to think a person doesn't need help and the story of Princess Peach is noble one for her world constantly gets invaded by a person who means to harm her people and she sacrifices her happiness and free will to appease the villain. As far as Mario's story it too is noble for he is someone in the lowest of stations who risks his life to save someone and their people from despair and tyranny.
19:52 there is a huge difference between speculating if something is woke and then finding out for sure. For instance, you damn sure Nintendo had to step in to make the Mario Bros the ones who beat Bowser, as Universal definitely wanted Peach to "girl boss". Were it not for Nintendo, her part in the movie would have been worse. Peach is suppose to start out as a damsel in distress and come into her own later.
I thought it was funny that at the end of Odyssey after fighting over Peach, Mario pats Bowser on the back after Peach gets mad at Bowser and Mario fighting to hand her a flower.
Mario was going to *pop the question.* She was probably going to either politely turn Mario down or actually say yes. But getting desperate from Bowser of all people and getting all in her face made it a definite no.
@@EWOODJ it's just weird for Bowser to start crying after spending the game trying to force a marriage on her. If she could have just shouted enough at him right from the start and had it work, the whole g a me could have been avoided. It's just an example of how Bowser goes from threat to goofball at the drop of a hat
Funny enough its just short of outright stated that most of the time when she gets 'captured' its mosty to keep bower out of her kingdom as he usually just grabs her and bounces.
yep. In most cases she could just leave, but since she can't beat Bowser in a straight fight, it's counter-productive as he'd just do it again immediately or hold her kingdom hostage. That's the only reason she doesn't immediately escape in Paper Mario. As long as he's got that bullshit star-power no one can beat him, so she spends most of the game playing the good hostage while sabotaging everything she can lay her hands on and subtly interfering with his plans to buy Mario more time to get the means of removing his invulnerability, so that once it's time to spring the trap, Bowser will be all alone and it'll be a classic 1 : 1 again, which Mario can win.
I actually think that the damsels in distress in the ace attorney series provide a bit more when looked at in context of their games. They either serve as an introductory case, teaching the player how to play the game without the hand holding of the tutorial, or the finale case. Both times the damsel in distress case works pretty well. For the introductory case, it gives you a reason to care about the case, especially while first figuring out the game. I remember the first time I played, gathering all of the information from the non-court sections of the game was actually pretty challenging, as I didn’t yet know what I was looking for. However, by having an obviously major character as the client, it gave me a bit more motivation to work through the more frustrating parts. For the finales, it actually works even better. Suddenly, a person that you have built a connection to and have a personal relationship with is under fire, and now only you can save the person you care about. It makes for a much more climactic ending to a game then if it was just another random person. In addition, the entire court case scenario has a damsel in distress aspect built into it. As a lawyer, it is your job to help clear your client for suspicion for a crime, as the client isn’t capable of doing it for themselves, as they have been arrested. So in every case in the ace attorney games, there is a damsel in distress element to it, we just don’t fully recognize it because of the scenario that it is put in. Sorry for the long rant.
Being a princess in disgrace is "historical" that archetype is not based on imagination, in ancient times stealing the daughter of a ruler was a symbol of stealing power or to "force" miscegenation between 2 kingdoms, to maintain autonomy of a kingdom or nation it was an important mission to rescue the princess of the kingdom. Nowadays we still have princesses! e.e and we all know them, Gales, UK, Monaco! and they are quite useless, even a few years ago I remember the news. They kidnapped a woman from the royal family of the Arab Emirates? Or was it... gales, I don't remember anymore, they paid the ransom and she was released, as you can see, EVERYONE IS WRONG, the princesses are weak and continue to be kidnapped EVEN TODAY, are politic events on all cultures around the world , if someone kidnaps your princess, rescue her and show her that you appreciate her and give your life for her
Damsels in distress can also be apart of good storytelling. Motivation for someone else to strive to save someone, overcome their fears, etc etc. I’ve started to hate the girl boss trope. It’s especially annoying seeing characters changed that have existed for many years to almost be unlikable or unrecognizable. Like how I think Snow White remake will probably be terrible because they’re trying to overcompensate for her being a damsel. And sue me, I don’t like what was done with Peach in the Mario movie. She is almost completely unrecognizable in terms of personality and teeters on the edge of being unlikable. Part of it is that the voice actress performance, another part is she is given a generic personality that teeters on being the generic girlboss but not quite. I don’t like that at all.
While I do agree that Maya Fey being a damsel is annoying (though she does help Phoenix out a lot and doesn't just sit back waiting for the problems to solve themselves) she herself as a character is arguably one of the best in the series. Normally someone who has had multiple murder attempts on them, or put into situations where they're life could end, would have the trauma consume them. Despite going through so much, she's able to stand back up, smile, and look out for those she deeply cares for. That takes a lot of strength.
The key thing is the removal of participation as a person. A character in captivity has a lot to deal with. Its a direct denial of self agency and they're burdened with doubts and powerlessness. Stories using this and preaching the virtues of saving people never seem to want their powerful protagonists to be imprisoned and dependent on another. Usually they bust out alone or at most get handed a bit of help then muscle up and escape, again under their own power. This is because putting a character in that helpless position cuts them off from taking action on the story or being affected by those actions they take. They are no longer a character experiencing and enacting change, they're a trophy with some usually flimsy emotional lures to dress them up for the rescuer. I heavily disagree with the totk example. Zelda doesn't get to participate. She's present but doesn't get to act on any of her mistakes or really affect change. None of those events really change her as a person and she doesn't try anything different. Aside from one idiotic scene that hands ganon power she is just there moaning over the inevitability of it all. She's a camera pov for link and the player to know what happens, watch her get some regrets, and then become a dragon who doesn't remember anything or take action that is her own. That last part is what really bothers me because if the dragon thing had consequences and post victory zelda was dealing with them then not only would that be a decision that affects her but she'd be directly teaming up with link for the flashy finale. Instead its some nebulous help link instincts that ends with her still needing to be saved because they can't just calmly land after exploding evil. If she was instead potent but not enough, learned how to use her power, held off ganon and directly helped preserve old hyrule that much longer instead of just powering one beam from rauru like one time, and was directly engaging the holy aspects of the master sword to figure out an actual skill driven repair system instead of apply directly to forehead? All while tying those scenes to her finding her confidence to be a ruler her own way? Then we'd be getting somewhere. Totk has too many oddities that need patching for a cohessive story (why does one bad stone > 6 good stones for example or why does it enhance skills that the good guys already have but gives ganon powers he never had). I could say something about how saving a girl is a fantasy of side stepping needing a personality to endear oneself to a woman for dating purposes too, but this shit just goes on too long. A trope that oculd be fun to explore if it was ever made for the purpose of the captured character's plot. Instead its usually just a titty temptation for defeating a bad.
The normal damsel in distress trope isnt bad writing, it just means that the damsel is a background character/supporting cast. No story fully explores and grants agency to every character
11:41 Something tells me the writers do though, once or twice is... Well fine I guess but LOOK at how often this has happened to her and tell me someone writing for these games doesn't have some vendetta against Maya. Or, they just think it's funny or something. Hard to tell. It reminds me of Astruc and his irrational hatred of Chloe (who is apparently based off a girl he knew at some point) and all the stuff he's done to her but without the implications that an abuse victim is irredeemable and isn't actually a victim because said victim is rich. That whole thing is a very big YIKES and off topic but yeah.
The impression that I always got from Twilight Princess is that Zelda did not sacrifice her life to save Midna, but rather bestowed upon her the Triforce of Wisdom. "Accept this now, Midna. I pass it to you..." Zelda disappears because she is no longer protected by her Triforce. Both Zelda and Midna could be considered "damsels in distress." However, Ganon is a demon king with his own Triforce of Power. Using this power, Ganon's minion Zant was able to both transform Midna and defeat Hyrule. Someone needs to take up the Blade of Evil's Bane.
For Yakuza, I thought you were gonna talk about Haruka, but Makoto is still a pretty good example, especially when she played a major role in Majima's development. Im sure alot of us wouldnt know what to do in that situation
