The Sans & Ice-E Conspiracy, and Deltarune Papyrus Mysteries | Theory Discussion 

I highly doubt it, but...If you read this I'd like to ask you to review Determination's actual effects. I believe a very very very severe fandela effect is spread on the entire community on HOW determination even works. People think for example that Determination KILLS monsters, when literally no case of determination has killed monsters directly, and some people think that it melts monsters, when every single case without exception is DYING monsters, and people say Undyne is arbitrarily an exception. I think there is a chance even you might've been hit by this misinterpretation. I want someone like you to actually cover this situation because it infuriates me how people insist on this when there is no actual concrete evidence. The MOST valid point I've seen regards alphys' theories on determination, but even then we have seen potential bias in her experiment, as she was testing without a variable for the way DT works, while we have a variable with undyne.

@@skullzans I think I MIGHT'VE touched on it a bit in the determination and red souls video, but that's a good point, and one I actually use in Inverted Fate as part of Undyne's whole thing. I think eventually it would melt healthy monsters, but I highly suspect that it takes significantly more, especially since Undyne is already predisposed to it. Like, the way I handled it in IF is eventually DT will make monsters melt, but it takes much more if the monster is healthy, power, and in Undyne's case, already predisposed. That she hit that point goes to show how excessively she relied on additional injections later, haha.

@@Dorked Personally, I think the idea that it eventually melts or kills them is dumb, because it is an arbitrary rule. We have no reason to assume it. However, I do think AUs using it that way is tolerable. Its like what you said in determination soul video, where the red soul isn't "Determination" but using it as such is actually fine, despite it being wrong or likely wrong. **SIDE TANGENT BELOW:** But, One thing I would like to say, since Determination can reform a monsters body, there is an arguement it could kill a monster if their identity isn't strong enough. IRL, spirits have to maintain a very consistent identity, or they begin to dissipate the parts they stop holding onto. With a body, thats anchored. Why I bring this up is because with DT creating Undyne the Undying, it has been shown to be capable of changing monsters shape, even flowey shapeshifted despite being physical. This implies that if a monster has too much determination but no direction, they could theoretically fall apart if this was sutained, it wouldnt be lethal, but it would be an amalgamate situation, and they would become dependent on the DT if their magic lost its natural stability. Then again, thats just a convoluted solution to how to "Retcon" IF's interpretation to mine, and I worry I sound like an arrogant ass for it.

@@Dorked Oh, also I do love the way you handled writing it, even if I disliked the fact of it, your storytelling made me see past it and even like that part of the story.

@@skullzans Here's the thing, tho: Alphys' observation is that the lack of physicality is what makes DT eventually melt monsters. I think given that this is stated in-game, it's reasonable enough to assume that eventually even a healthy monster will succumb and melt. Doesn't mean they will *die*, but when our only examples of DT in monsters eventually do lead to melting (Granted, with fatal wounds for Undyne), I do think it's reasonable to assume. My personal interpretation is that Undyne is able to handle it in her default state because he's strong, healthy, and more importantly- larger than, say, a Whimsun. I think smaller monsters probably have a lower tolerance even at greater health, and illness and injury decrease that tolerance because the monster's body is in a weakened state where DT is more likely to destabilize it.

Yeah, that's why I think it's possible he was faking it to keep up appearances. The issue is we don't have enough tangible proof to stay one way or the other- but I could totally buy that Papyrus wanted to seem like a normal monster, since if he came from DR's world, that'd raise a lot of awkward questions from other monsters.

@@Dorked Came to mention this. Papyrus really is enigmatic & it's hard to tell when he really doesn't know better, is just being comedic, or playing dumb for what could be any number of reasons. He DEFINITELY acted more naïve & cheerful around Sans in the King Papyrus ending, but then dropped the act once his brother left. So there's canon precedent for him hiding things from Sans. & he also mentions in another conversation that Sans never tells him anything. & Sans does talk about him behind his back, sometimes in endearing ways, but in others teasing (depending on interpretation of his tone). So, Papyrus also knows that Sans hides things from him too. They're both so mysterious, perhaps even to each other about some things. Despite him having the most dialogue in the game (though SO many people never experienced the majority of his phonecalls, both his solo versions & ones with Undyne along, EACH of which have two calls per room), he contradicts himself very often (example: he says he never sleeps, yet also says he cruises while he snoozes), changes his opinion of things depending on others' reactions (though of course, some of that may be his insecurities about being liked & wanting to fit in)... it's hard to really know who Papyrus is! Even HE asks, "DO *I* KNOW WHO PAPYRUS IS?" So yeah... His stilted delivery & awkward wording about the sun almost, to me, seems like he's trying too hard to seem A Totally Normal Amount Of Surprised™️ about seeing the surface For The First Time, Audible Wink! But... Who knows!

@@Dorked Assuming that Papyrus is the knight also lets you put a few more things into context; Papyrus would be trying to hide that he is from another world because he almost personally destroyed it and he's friends with Undyne of all people, who literally defied monster biology as soon as someone was threatening the fabric of their world. It also shows that his "ANYONE CAN BE A GOOD PERSON IF THEY JUST TRY!" philosophy could be a result of experience, that he was the worst but became a good person because he tried. This idea also lines up with lines like Papyrus claiming he's a "tough kinda dude"

so I think we can safely assume sans told him about it afterward to which he was able to tell frisk when they entered the lab. I also skimmed through papyrus dialogues, notes, calls, and labels it seems that he only mentions the lab after that call, so I think that supports he wasn’t lying and his brother explained afterward.

@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her *I will say he says he never sleeps, but that he takes multiple naps? So that in itself doesn't contradict, but yeah

That's a good observation! xD And now I'm reminded of that weird milk cat in chapter 2.

@@Dorked do you mean the milk dish alphys keeps in the alley? because i’m pretty sure it’s Susie that’s the cat then

@@nraflower No, the one in the store.

He owns that store though so hmm

Also the random sun in shadow puzzle with Susie and Berdly in chapter 2?

I think it'd be cool to show Papyrus being in the know about certain things, especially when the fandom tends to boil him down to being a dumb "cinnamon roll". x-x

@@Dorked Papyrus has meta knowledge too; he knows about the dating HUD (even remarking on it if you choose not to display it), & in several of the endings he specifically critiques the quality of said ending (often with comedic contrariness). Then there's him uh... seeing over the phone. Repeatedly. I think there are a few more cases, but those are the first that come to mind.

Oh! That's an interesting take! It'd be a really interesting character exploration if Papyrus was the one dealing the the existential crisis and depression instead of Sans!

Also, Sans's reply "We call that "the sun" my friend" is a bit weird for him to say to Papyrus because he wouldn't call him "my friend" but it makes perfect sense if he is playing it up for show instead of genuinely trying to tell his brother that information.

There's so much wacky stuff to chew on and it can be so hard to tell when he's trolling and when he's serious. xD I respect that, though.

Huh, that's an interesting point regarding amnesia as a possibility. Hadn't considered that angle!

I don’t want papyrus to be a redditor or a discord mod

@@Dorked There's also the very odd description of Papyrus when you Check him in the G-route: "Forgettable." Like... How? He's very memorable, both to players & other characters. Then again, Papyrus seems to think nobody likes him, yet if he's killed in a Neutral Route, SOOOO many townsfolk speak fondly of him & wonder where he is. Maybe they just took him for granted, &/or never really told him they liked him (Though at least the hotel lady gives him candy). It's one more piece of this puzzle, I think. A single word, but SO significant when "Don't Forget" is such a recurring theme in Deltarune, & is held in such a deeply secret place in Undertale.

I do think having a note to not forget (something) about those unknown people is a little suspicious, like, does Sans actively need a reminder...?

Cool ideas! I want to add another random peace of information and how I took it if that’s alright. Papyrus mentions the “wind in his hair, sun on his skin” in a previous conversation in his room when you look at the racecar bed, suggesting that he does know what the sun is, but then asks what the “giant ball” is later at the end of the game. I think it’s a similar situation to the laboratory conversation, he contradicts himself depending on who’s around to hear him. He seems to know what the sun is around you/Frisk, but once everyone is on the surface and Sans, Undyne, etc are next to him, he pretends he doesn’t.

I totally expect Ice-E to be some kinda nightmare hellscape. There's even precedent with Toby describing it as hell in the anniversary livestream. The main reason I omitted that here was because HBC already talked about it in their vid and I was more focused on how Ice-E could potentially prove that UT Sans is the same as DR Sans before blowing holes in that point with the sun. xD

@@Dorked Exactly where I got that theory from! HBC has some great videos, wish both you and him got the attention you guys deserve! Also, I'm surprised no connection was made to Ice-E melting, and Papyrus's sun dialogue... More food for thought!

It’s pizza pants in deltarune

Remember when Jevil said that hell's bubbles roar from the deep? What if he wasn't referring to The Roaring and was actually referring to Ice-E? Could tie into that song Onion-San heard too 🤔

@@Dorked I suggest you check out HalfBreadChaos's Theory on Ice-E. Lemme check what it's called

THAT IS A GOOD POINT. Both having amnesia I could vibe with a LOT better than just Papyrus, tbh. At least then it'd be more balanced.

This is a good theory

assuming that sans and papyrus only got to the town around the day of chapter one, that they're darkners who found a way to move there from the dark world, and that the events of deltarune's final chapter will involve some sort of world ending event... it seems very likely that papyrus could've just gone the week that deltarune (probably) takes place over without seeing the sunrise. it's a lot of assumptions but it isn't impossible!

@@gretchling5012 Papyrus is a monster. There is no doubt about it. Sans on the other hand... Who knows.

@@Dorked would make sense as well in that something would probably have to go SERIOUSLY wrong in deltarune for them to appear in Undertale

IT'S A NEAT IDEA. It would tie into the other Deltarune connections with the Fun events for sure. xD

I really would not put that past Toby. xD

I hate when that happens!

xD Yeah, if it turns out they are separate Sanses, that would be an A+ prank across time and space.

@@Dorked ...Papyrus did say Sans tends to do those doesn't he? HmmmMMmMmMMMMmmmMm

LOL That's honestly pretty in-character ngl haha

YEAH, same! I love the idea, and I really do hope to talk about it more in-depth in a video on possible knight candidates. It just might be a lil' bit since there are other vids on the docket that my patrons seem interested in.

@@Dorked that would be cool

i hope it’s mad mew mew

@@DoodleZoo stop

@@thekingofdoges why

UNDERSTANDABLE. English is a hard language even for native speakers. Happy to help!

pizzeria is the formal but usually people just say Pizza Lollapalootza

Heh, Jesse Hunter is joking, you're still correct. (Hopefully more people over time will get used to using tone tags to indicate sarcasm.)

@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her Yes I thought so. Thank you

@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-herFrom what i’ve experienced and seen, tone indicators introduce more complexity and misunderstanding. It is usually better to let the weird statement be judged wrong by it’s weirdness. It was more useful for me when i got started with english to have people to ask if given confusing elements rather than have more precise and complex statements to determine.

xD It would open some holes, but it is a funny and wacky idea for sure.

@@Dorkedboth of them being the older brother,,,, funky

I could see him doing remote learning, if we're to assume he's still in town. :o Maybe he's such a shut-in because they moved from where they lived before and he's still a lil' blue about that.

Actually it seems that Deltarune is taken a few years after Undertale? After all, Monster Kid is older Now that I think about it, this video is literally talking about how probably Sans and Papyrus moved from Deltarune to Undertale so... yeah. But I think that Papyrus isn't that young. I mean, he seemed to be just a little younger than Undyne, considering that their usernames are "CoolSkeleton95" and "StrongFish91". But I don't know. Maybe I'm rambling nonsense

Yeah, Toby's really good at leaving mysterious hints and buildup.

just like the inside of 'Sans is different from the inside of GRILLBY'S

Also true! It depends on how long he's been down there among other factors. xD We really don't know what his deal is yet with regards to DR.

@@Dorked Yep, personally I find ice e decently compelling evidence as I cannot think of a single other place where ice e is mentioned in Undertale but we'll just have to wait and see.

I do wanna touch on it at some point, but I think if I do, I'll wanna do a couple of different knight theories as part of the discussion, e.g. the Alvin theory, Dess theory, etc.

If I may offer my personal reasons for believing it, in case you might not have heard of some of them, here are some of my personal reasons for believing that Papyrus is The Knight. Papyrus in Deltarune would be MISERABLE given what we know about his personality from Undertale. He's eager to know people in Undertale, but in Deltarune he's a shut-in and has no known friends, or even anyone who's remarked on him outside of Sans. There's a common misconception that I've seen used by some people in comments to try and disprove Papyrus as being even a contender to be The Knight, and that is an automatic assumption that The Knight is inherently evil and that Papyrus could never be truly evil, only misguided. And to that, I personally agree with the latter. Papyrus (possibly quite literally) doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He's too nice, that's what makes Undyne hesitant to let him become a Royal Guard. He's the only monster in Undertale who seems to be capable of NOT killing the human outright, and a human's ability to deal damage is tied to how much negative emotion they put into their attack, how much hatred they let course through their strike. If the same applies for monsters and their ability to damage humans, then it could be further proof of Papyrus being quite literally too innocent, too worried about others to fight or kill anyone, and there's good evidence to believe that a monster's power scales with their negative emotions towards their target, with Undyne the Undying and Sans becoming vastly more powerful than they normally would be based on their sheer hatred for you. Flowey MIGHT be a counterexample for this, given how they're... kinda the most outwardly negative being we could fight in The Underground, but they're also toying with us every time we fight them, which could explain why they leave us at 1 HP at the start of the game and why they deal constant damage during the Omega Flowey fight in the Neutral route, regardless of your Level of Violence. Back on track, if Papyrus is too nice of a person to truly wish anyone any ill will, how could he be The Knight? I personally believe that his sheer loneliness drove him to create worlds where he could have power, where he could have friends, as an escape from a world where he didn't and couldn't. In the Dark World, Lightners are seen as incredibly powerful beings, and many Darkners are open to being spared and interacting with Lightners. As queen posits, "is it not possible for anyone to make a dark world?" While it's possible that she is truly unsure of the answer, it's also possible that in the Deltarune timeline, monsters possess more physical bodies, and as such, can access the power of Determination. (An example of this is the fact that Kris, a human, is physically healthy in Deltarune despite being what seems to be the only human in Hometown, and would need physical food to be specially prepared for them if they had any special dietary needs compared to the local monsters, since a human needs physical food and not just energy to sustain their body, both in Undertale and the real world.) It's entirely possible that monsters in Deltarune DO have access to determination, and if someone was lonely enough, they could channel their determination to make any friends into their blade, plunge it into the earth, and make a dark fountain. As for WHY Papyrus would even make a dark fountain if he knew about The Roaring, it's possible that he just straight up doesn't know. He could have been manipulated by The Angel's Heaven into opening up Fountains, blind to the balance of light and dark he is tipping. It'd be a very Papyrus thing to do, given how he gathered everyone in The Underground to The Barrier during the True Pacifist Route at Flowey's urging. As the final piece tying my belief down, Papyrus' main outfit he wears in Undertale has a knight motif, bearing an emblem on the lapel as the most obvious and most important detail. As for where I this would take the story, I think it's possible that Susie isn't The monster mentioned in The Legend, but that Papyrus is. I'd imagine that if he got chased down and told of the magnitude of his actions, he'd be more than willing to try and stop what he's wrought with his new friends, restoring the balance and finding his own balance between reality and escapism, because that's just who Papyrus is. If Papyrus in Undertale is Papyrus from Deltarune, it's possible that this experience is what ingrained in him the idea that anyone can be a good person if they just try to be better. That line just feels like something Ralsei would say to cheer someone who has given up all hope at being able to fix something, in my personal opinion. Sorry, I went into this wanting to only list my points but the storyteller in me decided to have a bit of fun with this. Definitely looking forward to your video on the topic, and you make really insightful Undertale/Deltarune content. I hope I was able to bring up something that you might not have considered, that you might be able to use in your video!

I think the main reason I suspect Papyrus is gonna be somewhat important is because I feel like it'd be really mean spirited of Toby to tease Papyrus like this and then never have any payoff. Doesn't mean he'll be THE Knight, but I'm sure he'll have something going on.

Nope, UT Papyrus is plot relevant AND mysterious. The only thing is that it's more hidden. Basically just offhand comments that are pretty easy to miss. I don't think Toby would tease Papyrus for so long just to make him some comedic relief character.

Honestly, Sans personality is WAY different from Undertale. Behind his inital layer, it feels like hes geuninely happy and is trying (Given he owns a bar), and seems just a lot more relaxed and chill. And Papyrus being the Knight wouldn't be too unlikely, espeically considering his whole goal in Undertale was to make other people happy and to gain admiration. What better way then that but to create massive worlds for people to adventure in, places where people never have to grow up or be seperated from eachother? Places of adventure and imagination... that defientely sounds like something Papyrus would want to do.

You know, it's funny because Mew Mew exists in both games, but Ice-E is almost irrelevant in UT outside of that one puzzle. Very odd!

Yeah, I mentioned that- like, Ice-E as far as we know isn't a thing in Undertale outside of one scene, but the existence of pizza is shown in other scenes. :p

Did you see Jaru’s video on this subject?

Another commenter did point out that Papyrus is known to feign ignorance at points. e.g. "science house" vs laboratory depending on when Sans is around, so it's possible that it's that, but I think the biggest question if we assume only Sans came from DR is what that means for a potential UT Sans and what it means for UT's Papyrus, too.

Honestly, that comment during the stream came across as pretty sarcastic. I do think it's more than just a fnaf reference, but at the very least Toby seemed pretty aware of the fact that people would draw attention to it.

When I saw you wrote "Barney is E vil" it felt like my heart skipped at least 15 beats before it clicked that you were simply censoring that word. Thought the universe was going to implode for a second.

@@petruciosxd1374 Huh? What's so scary about the phrase "E vil"?

@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her Made me think for a moment that people were seriously using the phrase like that with E separated from vil, as if Toby could have possibly known about that too and made a seemingly random off the walls reference to it in Undertale before expanding on it in Deltarune with the pizzeria and the purple guy.

@@petruciosxd1374 Hehehe, well, kind of cool that telling this tale ended up creating a kind of meta tension, even if unintended. It kind of makes those old legends feel like they're coming back to haunt us again. 😈

@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her People kept making Barney jokes about Susie, and she was considered a menace even though she isn't _really..._ This. This is the true one. The true Nightmare.

Oh, certainly! IF is a long running AU webcomic/multimedia project, and the chronological reading order can be found here: invertedfate.com/chapters Thanks for the kind words, btw. c:

@@Dorked I'll check it out!!

Eyyy, thank ye. c:

Imagine if The Warrior turns out to be the Roaring Knight or something wild. xD I don't expect it, but it'd be funny.

Honestly, it's actually pretty likely. (Both the warrior and Ice-E cryptid are in my top 10 canadites for the being the roaring knight)

I doubt it. Kris shows a lot of caring for the situation. If you interact with the cages in chapter 1, they worry about the end of the world. If you talk to Undyne about dark worlds, they worry about those, too. I don't think Kris is actually soulless. I think we are just forced to control their soul and thus have uprooted their agency, for better or worse. They seem to be in pain when the soul is removed, but it's the easiest way to resist us short term.

What about... WE, the player, are souless? In undertale you frisk has 2 bands for having chara's and their soul, and kris has one for theirs, too (This is an old theory but it could help). So I think we are the souless puppeteers

@@anothername2557 That would be kind of funny, considering we control people with their soul

Yeah, I think it's good to trust in Toby. He knows what he's doing and he's always had a pretty strong persistence of vision in his work.

@@Dorked Yeah, especially with deltarune since I think he confirmed he saw the ending in a dream. Very interesting indeed. Can't wait to see how he'll surprise us with this.

Eyy, thanks! I was thinking I'd do a leitmotif vid on Victory Lap like I did for Defiance For Your Friends to promote the recent chapter. xD Might do that on, like, Tuesday or something.

@@Dorked looking forward to it!

One thing that helps me a lot is writing it all down in a script. Figuring out the topics and breaking it into chunks and sometimes prewriting also helps!

I feel like a huge part of Papyrus's shut-in nature in Deltarune is due to the fact he has very little to project on in Deltarune to hide some of his more deeply-rooted insecurities. As we know, Papyrus is both a far more intelligent person then he lets off, and has some pretty deep insecurities. Hes constantly seeking for the acceptance and approval of others around him (Hence why hes always attempting to join the royal guard), and generally making people happy in every way he possibly can. However, if you cut out most of Papyrus's outlits for the issues he hides behind his extroverted personality, I could really see him sort of closing in on himself and spending his days in his home, just working on puzzles in hopes he'll one day make something that'll get people to admire him. Honestly, would be a REALLY interesting parallel to Sans's seemingly better off life in Deltarune. Where he owns a bar and seems to be relatively well off with no signs of Nilhism or self-loathing. Thinking about it, the phrase 'Your choices don't matter' really does sum up sans's entire philosophy in Undertale pretty well... Eh, starting to ramble a bit. What do you think, Dorked?

The end is not as near as people think... but I don't wanna say too much more than that. ;) Thanks for the kind words, btw!

@@Dorked hm, i see, regardless i will still be looking forward to it, ‘cause you’re quite talented, at least in my opinion.

It's very silly when Papyrus is outright mentioned on the game's steam page. :P I think it's a lot of shitposting but some people legit do think he doesn't exist, and I don't get it.

Hope you enjoy!

The problem with that is that Sans leaves Papyrus alone in their house which I don't think he would do if he was that young lmao

If anything, I suspect DR Papyrus is closer to Kris' age, haha.

*Then it must not be finished.*

The theme is just gonna change to DT Papyrus going “who the hell is that?” in response to Prunsel

I think as long as Toby refines the concept so he's not as mean-spirited as the original beta concept, or at least he develops from it. Toby did say he changed it out of concerns for it being too mean spirited, after all.

@@Dorked fair, i just think seeing a version of papyrus who is completely different from expectations would be funny

It's definitely possible! I definitely don't think it should be ruled out.

Buff Toriel is a gift and a treasure. I respect her workout routine.

Flowey's buff too. They're ALL buff, except Sans. XD

That's a good point! I think the main reason I hadn't considered that is that the line is said specifically in the context of resetting (e.g. if you come back to fight him after he dunks on you). It didn't quite occur to me to look at it in that context, but it's a fair point!

Awesome! Hope you enjoy.

A big thing is that "the void" as a concept is purely a fandom construct- Gaster was shattered across time and space, and what that really means for him has never been fully articulated on. I talk about this more in this video here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Phd0cjrc1F8.html

@@Dorked thanks! But the void is still a possibility! :)

To be fair, it is odd how Ice-E only appears in UT for one scene involving Sans yet is omnipresent in DR. :p

@@Dorked yeah but still, we are diving deeper then ever probably.

I think Mysteryman definitely is connected, given the fun value 66 and the gaster follower noise, but I also don't think Mysteryman is Gaster Himself so much as a fragment.

Aha! But Onionsan's SON is Gaster! Now it's all coming together... Damn, Toby really is a genius.

Onionsan is also Onionsans dad

Another Onionsan is Onionsans dad

Then we have Onionsam, the one diferrent guy

Eyy, thanks a bunch, Shayy! :)

I definitely think they've been there longer than a day because Sans already knows Asgore's routine. It's too early to say for sure what their deal is, though. The bros are very mysterious!

Huh, interesting! We'll just have to wait and see. I have nooo idea what Toby is doing with Papyrus, but I just want to see best boi.

@@Dorked me too, but I think the wait will be Worth it ;3

I already am aware of the non-goner versions of the followers and even showed an example in the video. Not sure how that has to do with the theory, though. xD

I have no clue

YOO EGG

INDEED. I felt obligated to follow up on the last one because I missed some pretty crucial stuff.

Papyrus being a shut-in doesn't fit with what we know of Papyrus in Undertale, tho. The Grillby's building could've gone out of business and been repurposed in DR's world. I talk about this more in the video related to this one, riiiight here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uyWHp7pAbsw.html

@@Dorked thanks

I already explained why this isn't the case in the video. :P It's Papyrus.

@@Dorked I hadn't reached that point in the video when I commented.

I used to be into homestuck. xD I just wanted an easy sun graphic and my mind went to the homestuck sun.