Another great video. I tend to agree. I am a shoe geek but I still really appreciate my brooks ghost 15 and other simple daily trainers because they are so dependable and I don’t think brands will mess with them too much
I tend to agree in the sense of get there are too many Saucony models that have VEEY similar tech/specs and only if you pay attention to all the details, or try them on (in a store) can you know the differences. Most Scarface runners are not that engaged or want (need) to be… so it just adds to confusion and frustration looking at the product line. Sort of the opposite that brands Nike and Adidas have… where you look at their “running shoe” category and see 100 different models, where only maybe 8 are actually running shoes. Saucony basically makes 4-5 of the same thing with very minute tech/foam/geometry differences. Min/maxed in a lab but no clear product differentiation for average runners (again, not the runners who would watch videos on RU-vid about running shoes). But also the type of runner that would get overwhelmed and frustrated by Saucony’s product line and just go to Dicks Sporting Goods and buy a cool pair of Nike’s on sale…
...and whats the problem here? Didnt get where the "problem" is. Its like adding flavours of strawberry ice-cream is bad cause there are already a strawberry flavours.
Average runners, who don’t follow shoe tech or care, who also have no interest in a shoe rotation… running only in plated trainers… becoming dependent on that type of shoe and unable to run comfortably in any other type of shoe.
@@SagasuRunning Its the same as saying "average drivers that dont follow car tech and having no interest in latest features... getting dependent on automatic gearbox/gps... unable to drive manual/paper map anymore"... Still dont see the problem. Its called progress. Plated shoes are usually softer and easier to handle for your joints. An average runner will feel it in their long term health wo even noticing it. Same as automated gearbox and gps will keep your focus better on the road and therfor cause less accidents.
It's so true and among "us" often overlooked that "we" nerds are not the average runner who buys always the same Pegasus or Brooks or so. And yes, one should train in a diverse rotation but I don't see it as a responsibility of the company not to lure average runners into plated trainers by developing them. From what I see in my bubble these runners stick to tried and tested anyways and if they would buy something different, be it minimalist, plated or whatever the next trend will be, it's up to them to inform themselves or get advice in a running shop. If you buy a 2 door sports car as a daily driver you can't blame the manufacturer for not offering only station wagons 😉
I mostly agree with you…. I do think it is on manufacturers in running to temper the fad type hype (like the Kinvara Pro was milking) and educate as best they can. The Kinvara Pro was marketed as the next greatest thing and it wasn’t at all.
Great Video. I agree for the casual runner it might not be beneficial for them to have just a Kinvara pro or Mach X. It will probably take a few years for runners to decide if they want the tech or not. I myself never run back to back days in any plated shoe. Racer or trainer. Peba foam is far superior in every way to EVA. Not just plates but as the foams evolve, who knows how bouncy and soft the average running shoe will be. Who knows, Maybe plated shoes will become the norm as spikes are to Track running. Will be cool to look back at this video in a few years. I feel for now it's good to see the brands pushing the envelope. I have both the Mach X and Kinvara pro and find them much more fun to run in than a clifton or kinvara. For someone like me who keeps a few flats or basic no plated shoes around its not an issue but for the casual runner it could be something to keep an eye on. Probably because of the price but it's rare you will ever see a casual runner wearing an Alphafly for all their runs.
Yes, you get it. A rotation is key to a solid running foundation. I too rarely will ever run back to back days in the same shoe. I always swap shoes, not just plated/non-plated, but drops, stacks, foams, etc. I don’t think the KP is pushing any envelope. Saucony already defined a category with the Endorphins and Asics and Adidas beat them to the “super trainer” area with much better products. As for Hoka the Mach X makes more sense in their line as their plated shoes have all been much more race or true tempo focused. Still tie a shame they took a wonderful shoe like the Mach and “just stuck a plate in it”.I hope we see a proper Mach 6… It will be interesting to look back on this period in running shoes (and this video) in a few years. Something I can revisit. I’m planning on being around so remind me in 5 years or so. 🤙🏻
Average runner here! I’ve been running in Saucony shoes ever since I bought a pair if Jazz 4000 way back in 1993 for the London Marathon. Over the years the names may have changed but there was always a daily trainer for racking up the miles, a slightly faster option for speedwork and a racing shoe if needed. Today’s Saucony line up leaves me confused with multiple offerings in each category, but the speedwork zone in particular looks really crowded. Should I buy the Kinvara, Kinvara Pro, Speed or even the Pro? I think they are still trying to work that one out themselves. When the time comes, I’ll probably do the right thing and buy the model with the biggest discount 😏
Some good thoughts. I like say the Endorphin Speed line as it is sort of the like the "OG" Boston then the Peg Turbos and for me in a UK 13/US 14 provides a relatively lightweight "do it all" trainer that is cushioned enough for me but did not feel like am wearing a brick. The ones you mention just effectively seem to be inferior versions of the brand's top tier racers. So do I want to wear a realtively heavy shoe that is sort of like a racing shoe for daily plods and have no change out of about £200 for so doing. Might as well wear (as I often do) an older version of my preferred Vaporflys or indeed use shoes like the 2 Pro 3s, Rocket X2 as effective super trainers as for me they still come in under 300g. Then there is general thought I can't wear shoe x as it is "unstable" so the Endorphin Speed line added a bit in this area. I have seen some comments that the Kinvara Pro however is for those who still can't wear a Speed. Really ! That said good to have choice. Can brands really continue to make shoes that both work for elite marathoners going well under 5 mins/mile as well as those taking over twice as long. They seem to be trying to do so and does that mean we can struggle to find the "right" shoe for each of us.
Saucony has been leaning into everyday runners for years now and they have, very much, democratized alot of performance for that crowd. That is what is so perplexing about the KP is the Endorphone series is a series AND made to be extremely versatile. It is SUCH an extreme edge case that someone can't wear one of those but the KP works for them. I agre, more choice, the better in running shoes. However, as I said in the video, "average runners" arent paying attention to all of this and will end up in a shoe that is detrimental to then learning to run properly. Buying the KP, in addition too a Kinvara or Ride....fine.
The designers of the Kinvara Pro said on DoR that in their testing for slow-ish paces there was no difference in running economy vs the Endorphin Elite. They made a claim it was a viable marathon race shoe for a cohort of non-elite runners that are intimidated by the endorphin elite and endorphin pro.
@brianreiter5572 Kofuzi had an interesting insight in his review that Saucony is intending the KP to take some pressure off the Endorphin series, so one can be a proper trainer and the other a proper speed shoe. That does make sense. Though the design direction of the KP still seems convoluted at best.
@@SagasuRunning "take the pressure off" seemed a little "odd" to me. Saucony are in the business of selling shoes. If they can convince runners to drop £200 or $180 on these then sure they will be pleased regardless of whether those runners think they may or may not need say a Speed or Pro or even Shift as well. Kinvara previously was always a more budget shoe than the Endorphin line. As well as the stack maybe Pro just reflects the inflated price. If you charge a lot for something must be great - right ?
@@brianreiter5572 must say I was only really "intimidated" by the price of the Elite although some of the reviews did suggest it wasn't a shoe say for an everyday runner to borrow a phrase. If the price had been more in line with say the 2 Pro 3s may well have tried it but I guess Elite meant it had to be a lot. I think it backfired as very few runners bought them considering they have not sold out well apart from seemingly the misery 4 pairs that made it to the UK in my size that were never restocked. However a friend of mine of similar just sub 3 standard does love them but the only person I know of here that did pick them up short of being gifted them.
Brands seem to be acknowledging this because we're seeing the inverse trend bubbling up at the same time. Some great non-plated uptempo shoes have released over the past year like Saucony's own Sinister, the Altra Vanish Tempo (their racer with the plate deleted), Topo Athletic Cyclone 2 (non-plated PEBA, like Endorphin Speed with no plate), Brooks Hyperion Max and Tracksmith Eliot Runner (non-plated daily trainer with two types of PEBA-supercritical and standard). You could even throw the Mach 5 and Saucony Endorphin Shift 3 in that category. I'm bullish that we'll see development dollars continue to go towards these non-plated shoes
I’d add the Nike Streakfly and Adidas Adios 8 to this list… as well as the solid Nike Pegasus. Sadly though, as much as some of us may love and depend on these shoes… from a sales POV I doubt they sell less than 1/3rd what the shoes with endless tech in them do (or the ones marketed as such). I do think we will see more brands, especially smaller more boutique ones,lean into the opposite trend like Topo has.
Thank you so much for this video. I was looking for a daily trainer and trying to make up my mind between Kinvara 14 and Kinvara Pro. And this helped me.
I said it several years ago...companies seem interested in seeing how much crap can they put in a shoe. And plated shoes are great, but not every shoe needs a plate--but manufacturers are obviously just putting plates in shoes because every other company does.
The Brook Hyperion Max , Hoka 's Mach 4/5 , Topo Cyclone 2, Two of the available Vimazi's Z30 ,Z40 are examples of shoes that can hit the paces without plates or form altering mechanics and support your point.
There are more for that list but this is why the Hoka Mach X is such a slap in the face. The Mach 4/5 was already such capable shoe without the added bloat. I'm all for tech and brands "innovating" their product lines, but not at the sacrifice of some of their best products.
I agree with you. I would add that it is also not just plated or not plated, but also about middlesole density and stack height, drop, etc. The other day, I did a long run with my Gel-Nimbus 25 and the next day I went for quicker but shorter run with the Ultraboost Light. It is a huge difference between these two shoes and that helped as a reminder for my legs that should keep strong my feet and shin stabilizers muscles in shape ! 😅
Yup… plated and non-plated shoes are just two variables out there. Check out my last video “shoes are tools” for much more on that. Also my video “what makes a running shoe responsive”. I go into it all in-depth.
Both cushioned trainers and plated trainers have their spot on a larger rotation. The issue is when either are sold as the ONLY running shoe you need. Thats an issue. Both are less than ideal for daily running.
I don’t think there’s a problem with super trainers as a trend. The average person wants 1 shoe that they can use on every run and feels amazing despite the pace and distance and I think super trainers accomplishes that. Sometimes I think us, shoe nerds, exaggerate the affect shoes have on our training and injury, but in reality that’s maybe 5% of it and the vast majority of injury related problems can be solved by more recovery, fueling properly, strength training, and mobility exercises.
Your video popped up in my feed. Good timing. I got a pair of Puma Deviate Nitro 2 yesterday and I took them out for a test run today. It took me like a month or two to decide what shoes to buy and I settled on the DN2. The amount of shoes in the market is crazy. And reviews tend to be all over the place. But the DN2 seemed to receive great scores and overall consistent reviews. Anyway, the shoes felt like I was cheating. As a side note, I'm just getting back into running after being sick and taking a break and today I felt great in the shoes. I went faster, and ran more efficient at the same efforts compared to my non-plated shoes. Basically, my heart rate would be one zone lower at all paces I tested. Could I see myself running in them as a daily trainer? No. They didn't feel all that great at the slow paces. But for my speed, tempo, and hills workouts? Yes! I'll also will be using them for time trials and maybe races. I agree with you that these shoes aren't catering to the 80% of runners. Honestly, the only reason I decided on a super shoe trainer was because my other shoes were having a hard time with the faster paces and the treads are beginning to wear prematurely due to the high intensity and forces I'm demanding of them. Great video, great discussion.
You bought a pair of super shoes for the right reason and are using them as intended. They are amazing training tools to be used IN COMBINATION with a flexible and non plated trainer. Thank you for the kind words. 🙏🏻
I only wear plated shoes a couple days a week. I try to rotate 0 drop, plates , I get 1 day with something like the Invincibles and then try to vary the brands daily too. Wearing the exact same shoes for 12 years caused so many problems that I over compensate now with the variety.
That’s the way to do it. Most of the year I make a point to rotate shoes with different geometries, foams, stacks, drops (0-10mm) and plates. I rarely run in the same shoe back-to-back days. Variety = more training stimulus!
I have Bondi 8 and Bondi X. Bondi 8 is great while Bondi X brings back my knee pain everytime i use it. I thought it was weird. Then I bought Deviate Nitro 2. Again Knee pain comes back and next day I run in Bondi 8, no pain. Futher, I tried Carbon X 3, boom, Knee pain is back. Next day, I get to More V3, no pain!! Nimbus 24, no pain. Ultraboost 22, no pain. I try Bondi X again, pain comes back. I concluded that it was the carbon plate issue.
Plates in shoes, carbon or otherwise, shift the forces form the ankles and lower legs up into the knees and hips. So your hypothesis is likely completely correct.
Great convo. Totally agree with your arguments here. Biggest potential issue is likely to be under use injuries in the Mets, such as stress fractures as they’re not being activated enough, and the smaller soft tissues in the feet becoming weaker. More education required, the same can be said about super spikes and traditional spikes, especially for younger athletes
Totally agree with your take. I was listening to the same podcast and could not get even 20% of that show when it quickly became apparent that the Saucony product guy was doing some heavy verbal somersaults to justify the creation of this “Kinvara Pro” that no existing Kinvara buyer would be asking for. Nothing more than a complete marketing scam that I could not bother waste more time listening to.
I've been running in the Deviate Nitro 2 for all of my runs lately and I don't really feel much difference as far as a "pop" compared to my Novablasts. The DN2 picks up the pace very nice but, for easy runs, I still feel a lot of flexibility in the toes. I just bought it because I wanted the Nitro foam with a decent stack. I think it's good you're having this conversation though because I think it's important for us to cut through the marketing hype and ask ourselves what we really need. Personally, I like plenty of cushion in a not-too-soft but somewhat bouncy foam and a durable shoe and I don't really care much if it has a plate. Others may have different preferences.
Thank you for the kind words. One thing I will always do in this channel is be blunt and honest about what I see in running. From a product and performance standpoint. It’s the whole reason I started this channel. I’ve never run in Pumas… though enough people comment here about them I may try one at some point. I’ll keep an eye on the models coming out this year.
The Puma V2 helped me recover from a daily plated trainer habit. The Speed 1-2 set me up. It felt too good to be true after 15 years in the old Nimbus. The Speed felt fun and fast. I’ve since learned variety is certainly good. But more importantly I’ve learned daily use of plated shoes (even if not carbon) is not for me. After 18 years of running and having only one set back, this one sidelined me. No regrets. Learned a lot. Appreciate very much your approach to running shoes. Looking forward to diving into past episodes.
Running is such an amazing opportunity for learning and developing. Inquisitive and analytic runners are the ones that really get the best out of the activity. It’s really great to hear this! Plated shoes are great and have their purpose… but there are also other shoes out there that have just as much of an important purpose. Options are always good!
I understand your concerns. I have been running in the New Balance propel v4, which is a plated and rockered daily trainer, for quite a while and recently for one run I tried running in my Asics Gel-Cumulus 24, which is a more traditional and flexible daily trainer, which I normally walk in. Partly due to me just feeling sluggish that day, but it felt a lot harder to move and pick up my feet compared to when I wore the propels. Now I question how much I have actually trained and if I should go back to traditional style daily trainers when I have to replace the Propel v4
Yup… exactly my point. The training stimulus in a plated shoe is much different than a non plated shoe. Run in both shoes, alternate them and enjoy both… that will be your best bet. Both of those shoes are very complimentary to one another and will work well together.
I kinda disagree. The average runner you speak of typically goes to a running specialty store where, based on gait and foot analysis, are put into 'proper' shoes. I doubt a running store employee is recommending plated shoes to average runners. Average runners come out of these stores with Brooks Beasts/Adrenalines, Gaviota/Arahi's, and other support shoes.
Yup, many are doing this, in major markets. But for the rest of the world they go online due to access or price. Running is much larger than a handful of major US/EU/Asian cities with decent running stores.
Thank you for highlighting this and I agree with your sentiment in principle. I’m an older runner ( 62) who remembers the days when you bought 1 running shoe from the very limited choice available and ran it until it fell apart then bought another pair probably the same as the shoe companies then tended to churn out the same shoes for years. Now the global explosion in running interest has lead to a feeding frenzy for the next new thing which the shoe companies are only to happy to oblige. I have a pair of endorphin speeds which I love but I don’t run them all the time , my other shoes are non plated. So is it a bad thing that the current ‘trend’ is pushing us toward running only in plated shoes ? Look I think if it gets you out the door and makes you feel good then that’s absolutely fine and let’s not forget we have a choice. Good work and happy running! Ian 🇬🇧
Great comment! As runners, we have so much more choice in 2023 of what to run in and that is amazing. Finding what shoes work for you is easier than ever and (most of) the product out there is very good. That being said the industry push to capitalize of the "next big thing" (tech sells currently) is frustrating. The constant cycle of the industry jumping from trend to trend is also frustrating. But the same training foundations apply and building a rotation of different shoes for different purposes (shoes are tools) is easy given the great models out there (plated and non-plated). Thank you for the kind words!
It’s a great topic. Every shoe company needs a hyped “concept” shoe, whether it works or not, to peel runners off a brand, imo, at the expense of runners. For ex, I love Endorphin Speed v2, got them for $80, but all the sudden I feel compelled to get the ASICS superblast over the new Speed 3 (or another v2).
The Superblast is a very interesting shoe as far as this "super trainer" category goes. In fact it may be the best one in this new category. Honestly can't go wrong with it.
When i heard the kinvaro pro was coming out, i envisioned a competitor to the takumi sen 8. Lighter, nimble fast, lower stack with a plate and superfoam. Since that was missing in their line up. Back in the day i even ran a marathon in the kinvara so i was excited. Nope. They followed adidas and slapped a name from an existing product that has nothing in common with the namesake. They dump this thing which is really only what i call the saucony boston. And not the awesome 9 but the odd brick 10/11
I'm a fellow Boston 8/9 lover here. So respect! Saucony has been VERY clear they are uninterested in any shoe that is lower stack or low in tech. With the KP they are now clear that they are just chasing trends and now playing catchup to other brands again. Sadly the Endorphin successes seem to have left them already.
Very interesting video! Love your content 👊 Off topic: You like the Streakfly, as do i. How do you think Nike did overall with that? Since they marketed it as a 5/10k racer but it became more of a session/trainer, by the consumer. Never see elites use them either. Even in training. Maybe i don't look enough, but i have not seen it. Wouldnt Nike want to at least make it seem their pro's use them?
You see many of the Japanese elites using SFs in training but I’ve never seen an East African in them, ever. I have a video on this channel where is discuss how I think Nike did with the SF and what they likely will do with the SF2. Thank you for the support and kind words! 🤙🏻
I think the for hoka issue was more a marketing, lot of people wanted a mach with carbon plate as a tempo interval shoes. The final production doesn't feel like a mach 5 turbo, both shoes feel different.
@@SagasuRunning my guess they will do like mach supersonic for mach 5 take what works and apply some improvements on mach 6. I see x and supersonic as spin-off of mach
Very true! There 're studies showing that running in plated shoes could increase risk of developing plantar faciitis. As a runner who had surgeries in both feet, ( not from running in plated shoes), I am very hesitant to train in these shoes. Tried Endophine speed 2, felt the plate immediately. I am still only training in non-plate shoes, as it close to my race day, may started to try some plated shoes just to get used to it.
I have a history of plantar fasciitis so I’m VERY deliberate and careful with training stimulus and rotating a range of shoes. I do train in plated shoes but reserve them for workouts, some tempo running and important long runs in marathon builds. Otherwise I am in a non-plated shoe and usually lower stack and more flexible shoes. Shoes are tools… and having the right tool for the job is vital for serious running. Swiss Army knives are great… but when you need a hammer you NEED a hammer!
I think that's just how things are... when everybody was into minimalist shoes and others where into barefoot running, Hoka came out of nowhere and said maximalist should be the way, though they where laugh at, in the beginning everybody followed their example, everybody came out with their maximalist shoe...
Hoka's idea had merit and it took them YEARS to convince everyone of it. It also took years, like over 10, for the industry to jump onto the maximalist thing completely. Much different than "super trainers". The good thing is that in 2024 the super trainer thing already seems on its way out or at least evolving more into fast trainers/race shoes for everyone and not daily trainers.
Interesting take! I guess my thoughts are that everyone should have the opportunity to buy the “wrong” shoes at least once or twice in a lifetime 😂 so if even these average runners you mention find themselves in the wrong shoe, whether that blame falls on the shoe company or whatever, they can course correct or stop running (or become a more serious runner/shoe nerd like us!)… anyway, great thoughts! Thanks for sharing!
Interesting point. I do agree. We have all made mistakes with buying the wrong pair of running shoes and it can be a huge catalyst to get more interested into the space. Well said.
I think a wider 2e and 4e version of the endorphin speed and pro would have been way more useful. This would address an audience with wider feed that have almost almost no alternative for super trainers and race shoes. I would bet it would increase their sells and attract more people to the brand. There are already altra and topo who have built a whole company for the audience with wider feed. I think in general running shoe companies have way too many models that don’t real differentiate too much in between them and just confuses the customers. Two or three width options for each model would allow more people to find the perfect fit. But I guess the marketing department can’t sell that… (I ordered a pair of endorphin pro 4 based on your recommendation for wider race shoes and am waiting for them to arrive. But I already know that it will be a compromise at best in terms of the fit. I just found you through your review of the metaspeed paris and enjoyed a lot of your videos since then. Keep up the good work 👍) Greetings Felix
The original mission of both Altra and Topo wasn’t about wide models or wide feet. It was actually about natural shaped shoes coming from lessons learned in barefoot shoes. By proxy they work well for wider feet. I do agree that all running shoe lines need a good pruning. Removing 50% (or more) of models in most running lines would provide clarity and help to focus them on the models that matter. The Pro 4 is wide by comparison to something like an Asics Metaspeed or Nike Vaporfly… but it’s not wide by 2/4e standards. However, it has a good upper textile that will be the most accommodating in the category for a wider foot on a midsole platform than can also handle it. I hope they work out for you.
Been running for 12 years now, and have been a shoe nerd for around 7-8 years (probably). So since before these super shoes and super foams came into market. Agree with most that you said, and I've found it hard to advise my friends in saying that at the end of the day, shoe is just a tool in running. They need to strengthen and train their body. Being a stronger and healthy runner is more beneficial than to be a (bit) faster, instantly, by relying on shoes. Marketing and hype of shoes is massive in influencing the average runner, just like you said. At the moment, EVERYBODY suddenly popularize the term 'super trainers', which may be a part of what you said as normalizing plates in daily training shoes. It began since the zoomfly series came to the market, accompanying the 1st vaporfly, of course, but it actually really exploded in the market when the Saucony Endorphin Speed 1 came along. It was the first plated shoe that actually feels good for any type of runs. Since then all brands trying to have their own version. So, obviously, marketing is more dominant here, to compete with the Endorphin Speed. On Kinvara Pro, it's good that you still left room of good prejudice for Saucony, but for me, this is definitely market driven. They want to take a bit of share from the market hold by Adidas Prime X, Asics Superblast, NB SC trainer v1, etc. etc. That is of course the >40mm stack height shoes. I never really understand this type of shoes. Clearly not needed, but the market influence you to feel like you need one of those. The Kinvara Pro I think is a lame attempt by Saucony. Basically just shoved all that they have into the shoe, and hoped it works. They already have the Endorphin Speed 3 as their 'super trainer' (I'm starting to get bored with this terminology). They just don't have a >40mm stack height shoe, so they made one. Probably v2 will get better, I don't know. What really disappoints me is (like you said) their choice of using the "kinvara" in the shoe's name. The Kinvara Pro is obviously nothing like the Kinvara. It just contradict the whole concept of the Kinvara lineup as a simple, low(er) stack, 4mm drop, flexible, natural feeling, light, versatile tempo shoe. Every single word in this concept is contradicted by the Kinvara pro. Then why do they use that name? It just ruins the Kinvara heritage name. Just find a new name, whatever it is, find a random cool latin word or something, but just left the Kinvara alone. As you may have guessed, I'm a kinvara fan, so this thing irritates me the most. For info, for the last 1 year, as a shoe nerd, i now find joy in having a barefoot sandal into my rotation. Yep, that's right, a shoe nerd that loves to talk shoe tech and can give you most running shoes specs instantly without googling, like me, has now fall in love with a minimalist barefoot sandal. I'm not 100% converted to barefoot sandals, and have no intention to do that, but it feels refreshing to run once or twice a week with the most minimalist footwear you have, and just let your body works as it is supposed to. So refreshing that I now struggle to not run in these sandals for every run. However, I'm a strong believer in shoe rotation to avoid injuries, so I do that. The furthest I can run in these sandals is (at the moment) a half marathon (easy longrun, not race pace or tempo pace). Anyway, sorry for the long comment, and thanks for the video. It's a good one 👍
Great comment. We think alike. A lot of your market realities of why the KP was developed I fully agree with. It’s feels like a “everything and the kitchen sink” play that marketing can promote form any angle and try to capture the magic of the Endorphin series again… Also… I am also a runner who runs in barefoot sandals often. Check the Luna video on this channel for more about that. Great comment. Thank you for this. Was fascinating to read.👍🏻
Hence, shoe "rotation". I have my Endorphin Speed, but I also have a non-plated show, and a carbon plated shoe. Depending on the day and training, I use one or the other. However, personally do not think that carbon plated shoes should be used daily due to the impact on lower extremity muscles.
Yes, a "rotation" is the answer here. However, I bet most runners, those I cited as "average" don't know (or care) what that is end just throw on the same pair of shoes to run every time they go out. That is the crowd I'd be more concerned with.
Choices are good. In that Dr's of running discussion Sauciny was open and saying in their testing at slower speeds that there was no difference in running the Endorphin Pro 3 vs Kinvara Pro. The market will dictate if that shoe works or not. Ultimately these companies have to make money to continue to exist soi dont have any issue with Saucony putting themselves out there and seeing what sticks.
Choices are fine and Saucony is a for profit company. It when the product choices feel like they are the result of some marketing department for no other reason than grasping at whatever trend is popular right now or trying to milk past successes… that’s a problem. The Saucony Kinvara Pro feels like that more than any other “Super Trainer”. That’s frustrating.
Yeah I reserve plated trainer close to a race. I just use regular running shoes majority of my runs. It’s why I chose the Superblast for daily marathon block training. The Magic Speed 2 closer to peak phase of training. I feel like sometimes plated shoes are a crutch for not improving your running mechanics or economy.
I think plates are already becoming normalized and not necessarily to any detriment to the runner. The same concerns arrived from max stack trainers from the minimal craze transition. Nowadays nobody alternates days between zero-low drop minimal shoes and their stacked trainers. Stacked trainer running is the norm for most people daily and it’s generally okay. I think running in conservative carbon plates, whether peba or a non full length articulated plate doesn’t cause anymore harm that regular shoes, it’s simply just different with a performance benefit. Yes it directs different muscle groups that need adapting, as did high stack trainers from minimal drop trainers. But ultimately I don’t see it as an issue. I trained exclusively in the mach 5 for the last marathon I ran. Tried out plated trainers endorphin speed/mach x/deviate nitro etc. ultimately deciding the kinvara pro was the comfiest long distance ride. I ran in the shoe last weekend for the marathon (only my 3rd time using them) and ran incredibly light and strong. No different pain or sore spots and performance boost was evident. Earning your keep is arbitrary at this point, spending money on all the prep, physio, recovery,etc is trying to get a leg up anyway one can. I don’t see it as an issue for the average runner at all, call me a convert. I think it’s a performance boost here to stay. Yeah superfoams can get close, but the pop of a plate + foam is just faster, and with the way companies and widening bases it’s quite stable in the new offerings of “super trainers”. Now actual super racers, those probably will do harm to the average runner is prior training isn’t done. But that’s just user error and I think most brands and POS would do their best to explain that difference.
So...I alternate from zero-10mm drop shoes often. Usually in the same week. I also don't know any runner, personally, who doesn't also do this or at least move from 4-5mm to 8-10mm drop shoes regularly. I also train in plated shoes often, especially when in a build for a race, though this usually means training runs in the shoe I will be racing in. However I balance that with running in neutral flexible lower stack trainers as well. Shoes are tools and every shoe geometry/tech has a purpose. Running injouries have not significantly changed in the error of high stack/max cushion/plates shoes. Instead the injuries have moved from the Achilles/calves/knee into the upper legs/hips. Doctors of Running has cover this extensively...as in, running is a impact sport and you cannot escape the forces on the body...you can only move where you feel the impact. As for plated daily trainers...100% the loose of stimulus and training load on the muscles of the lower leg and foot is a massive deal. It makes one a weaker runner, more prone to injury, especially the casual runner who doesn't pay attention to what a running shoe rotation is and just wants to go run. Running 100% of the time in a plated shoe looses them quite a bit of training stimulus and benefit. If they rotated in a non-plated daily trainer, even 1 or 2 runs a week they would benefit greatly when in the plated shoe. Running moves in cycles. When the next cycle/trend hits, and it's not plates daily shoes... then casual runners will have the same issues as the minimal/barefoot trend caused. Luckily, from what we saw at TRE23, the plated daily trainer thing seems to not be as hot as it was...though we are still plagued with everything being max stack/rockered all the time for all purposes...though that is better than plated daily trainers.
@@SagasuRunning Thank you for your insight. I know many people alternate between 5(hoka’s)-9mm(standard) trainers quite regularly, but I was referring to zero to extremely low 1/2mm drop craze 15 years ago. Those needed adaptation and caused a whole host of different injuries and user error, ironically it was meant to salvage our perfect ancestral gait. Whilst I do understand the injury shift has moved higher in the body with plated trainers, I am also skeptical that it’s solely the “plate” to blame. Whether it’s just a super foam, an EVA composite, sandwiched nylon/carbon plate, etc they’re all trying to achieve maximum rebound energy return after deformation. I think that aid is ultimately going to shape susceptibilities in the body, so in that sense I do concur with you that perhaps running in a range of trainers is the most ideal for a more holistic strength and conditioning. What do you think about this? Do you think as super foams, rocker shapes, gradually improve, it’s also just as important to run in absolutely no frills trainers?
@@Nextman916 I 100000000% think that everyone should run in a “boring” trainer often. It’s a base of one’s running foundation, run durability and conditioning and learning what form works best for them. That way when you do put on one of the super foam super shoes or trainers you both understand how special that shoe is but you have a better understanding on your own mechanics and why the modern shoe may (or may not) work for you. No matter where shoe tech heads there will always be a case for a standard trainer… neutral, flexible and with a traditional geometry.
Yeah, truly a pertinent commentary; and, as I think you alluded to, shoe design and trends are cyclical, maybe? Your points on injuries and their location are so true - I finished Benno Ng’s book, The Biomechanics of Sport Shoes, and most of the recent research bears out that plates and super foams just relocate the injuries. I have to say, personally, w/out being a minimalist, plates and super foams are also antithetical to what we know about proprioception and its necessity in building strong feet and legs. I’ve always felt high-stack, super cushioned shoes are on a par w/ putting our feet in a cast - and, yet, the Hoka Bondi sure helped me on my road back from year-long PF! I see plates being common in training shoes, again, until the pendulum swings back with the compilation of hip, knee, lower back, SI joint problems, etc. But, as you say, tech sells shoes; and, it’s interesting that these designers do, in fact, switch from company to company, Having worked part time in running retail back in the late 70s into the 80s, I always took note of the emerging tech and the commensurate injuries - there is definitely a correlation. Who heard of periformis injuries before lots of midsole stack? …or rampant ITBS before super-structured shoes? Anyway, the beat goes on! Apologies for the ramble - but, much thx for a great and unique topic and perspective!
The DOR podcast covers a lot of the bio mechanical aspects of running shoes and tech and is fascinating. If you’ve never listened to it I highly recommend it. Interesting… we have the same savior from PF… Nike Invincible 2s and Alpha Fly 2s helped me about a year ago, though in hindsight while they allowed me to run through PF they likely made it worst. Plates for some training, even ALL of your tempo and race pace work… makes alot of sense if you are actually racing in them. But daily training in them, when you need to develop the foot strength and mechanics feel… I just can’t. Thank you for the kind words on the content. I’m glad it’s interesting! 🤙🏻
I feel I represent people that you mainstreams often took for granted/ omitted. When I used to log miles in those max cushion shoes I thought they were great until they started to f up my feet real bad. I later learnt that some max cushion shoes are just too flexible/soft/plush that may exaggerate pronation issues. It may also worsen existing plantar fascitiis. Solution? you guessed it. I swapped all my rotation to plated shoes(well, not all fully carbonn plate ones though.) and the problem just disappeared. Plus some pleasant bonus those shoes brought to me like more exciting and fun rides that made my cruising a lil less boring and more enjoyable. If I enjoy puting those shoes on and go out for a run, and they help me mitigate injuries, I think they're a win. If brands think that main bulk don't need plates, then I'll have to buy flagship plated shoes to just continue, then guess I have no other choice coz my feet told me so.
Totally agree they overly cushioned shoes are a problem. They do mask alot of problems with running for and mechanics. However running in plated shoes 100% of the time is equally the same problem. Just the other side of it. While it may be supportive in other areas it still masking inefficiencies and problems in overall mechanics. In fact running in any one type of shoe is a problem. Alternating shoes and therefore trainings stimulus on the feet and legs helps make a healthier runner. I run in plated shoes, often when in training for a race. I know the excitement I feel everytime put on Vaporflys for a workout of long run. However I make sure to spend more time in flexible shoes to balance that out. So if the super trainers help you get out the door and enjoy running more there great. But I would mix in a non plated, lower stack, more neutral shoe little by little into your running and focus on building foot and leg strength and overall mechanics. That will only build durability in you as a runner AND make the runs in the plated shoes that much stronger and more fun. Variety is the key with running.
@@SagasuRunning Well, with respect, you could be assuming things if you feel that way. Runing wasn't something that I used to enjoy as much. It wasn't even my main exercise of focus. I only picked it up recently as a cross training items to combine with my alternate days of lifting in gym which obviously includes leg days. So I just slot it in the next day after a workout which I'll have to rest my muscles to let it repair. I'll just get up and cruise around. Sometimes long distances, sometimes faster workouts depends on my energy level on the day itself. I definitely won't say I'm like the strongest guy in my gym whatsoever but I did serve in the army for few years, you know, rush to beat a timing while carrying loads through obstacle courses, or face punishments; and also regularly lift weights that is well above my body weight routinely. So I'd say I have some confidence in my ankles and joints to be strong enough. Even after I'm done with my service which includes rucking extremely long marches with load, I still enjoy travelling abroad, carrying 10-20kg of camera gears, hiking in the mountains and make photos. I don't feel a lack in strength in foot and legs. Obviously there's always room for more of that but unless you somehow have to be best warrior, otherwise it's not worth to sacrifice the whole portfolio of time in life to train that much harder. As you may be able to tell by now, I'm not really that much into the idea of marathon. I ran one while in the army as ordered and it made me quite sick afterwards. I later through work opportunities in health industry learned about how much damage it can potentially do to a body. While I wouldn't stop challenging it as one of an achievement in my life to ever complete one for a decent timing for an non atheletes. I would not be passionate about becoming really fast at it. I'm just someone who is experiencing the positive externalities of cutting edge runing shoe tech developments streamed down. I don't need to be the most efficient in runing economics. For some they put this as important as their lives maybe dependant on it. For me it's part of a lifestyle and anything that helps with consistency and preventing injury is indefinitely more important.
You have an interesting perspective I can’t argue with. It’s based on your personal experiences. I would also add that I wouldn’t consider you an average runner either. Maybe you do, due to mileage, but you are much more self aware of the sport and how it effects you than the average runner. Running is my main sport and a integral part of my life. Yes, I race, mostly marathons, but that is not why I run. I’m competitive and see racing as an outcome of training. However, if I couldn’t race… I’d still run. Running in very important to me. I’m also (obviously) both a gear nerd and someone who cares about run form and mechanics. I don’t think there is a one size fits all with run mechanics, but I do think one should strive to understand their own bio mechanical mechanics and optimize them so that they can run more comfortably and more healthily over the long term. It’s not an obsession but it is striving to be better at an activity very important to you. Therefore rotating different shoes, technologies, foams and geometries is key to both understanding for but also building run durability. I will say this. Plated shoes, which also generally have lots of toe spring, take forces off of the foot and ankles, but move those forces more to the knees and hips. It makes sense why you don’t like the ultra cushioned and high stack shoes as those types of shoes put more stress on the foot and ankles (especially).
@@SagasuRunning I definitely know how it affects coz I work in the health industry. Not only I have to work hard on promoting others' health, I must dedicate part of my life to lead as a positive example to people as well.(obviously or else my words would have very low credibility lol) So I train hard, and if an athlete choose to come to me I'd know exactly what they put their body through. It's part of our requirements to know as much as we can so as to be able to assess and examine all possible impacts. Every little thing in life plays a part somewhere to health. Can attest to what you mentioned, yes I do own 2 pairs of prime x strung and they did make me worreid a lil bit about my ankle at times, espeically during warming ups of a run. And the real waking up call was developing foot pain whilst trying triumph 20. Such a pity that I can't enjoy those max cush shoes and I endedup selling all of those. But deep down I feel the dispreference of high stack max cushion shoe is more due to my mental side of things. I outright hate boring and repetitive things. I started runing with a pair of nimbus 25. Although great shoes, they tend to make the run somewhat calm and soothing. I felt literally like runinng with a pillow that I'm about to sleep inside. Until I tried speed 3. I absolutely love that feel. It's so much more nimble and exciting. My legs felt like paperweight that I just want to keep them moving, and I absolutely enjoy the feel of speeding. I did grab a pair of superblast and tried them once but couldn't experience what others raved about them at all. So it added up to help made me more bias towards plated trainers. I'll try a few more runs to see if I can make something up out of that huge piles of cash. So I can have a non plated trainer in rotation.
@@jamesjin8839 I know every time I lace up my Vaporflys, for a workout, long tempo run or race...it's an exciting feel to be able to run in that shoe. So I know that feeling. I get the same thing running in my Pegasus. I love the natural flex, traditonal geometry and lack of bells and whistles. Again, you see FAR from the average runner... especially given what you do. I think you aew well versed in what you are doing. Though i will still say, alternating training stimulus on the feet and legs is vital to building long term run durability. Plated or non-plated, alternating shoes is important.
You raise some interesting points. I believe that the foot and ankle flexion has alot of power in it and using plated shoes all the time undertrains these area, thats why I like the plastic/nylon plates over the carbon plates due to their flexibility. The saucony kinvara pro is really a racing shoe/ all in one shoe for stability people. Hence the pwr run cage and 3/4 plate, but marketing as a stability shoes reduces the customer reach. I found the speed, too unstable in the heel, so a wider base like the kinvara pro would work better, I just don't think a carbon plate was needed. So using the kinvara name they would hopefully pick up the kinvara fan base, which it may have the opposite effect. They should have marketed it as a new endorphin shift. The kinvara 14 is all so in the same boat with marketing. It is so different to the original concept that it's no longer technically a kinvara, although I love the kinvara 14.
I agree with your breakdown… though the KP doesn’t have a carbon plate. It’s a 3/4 PEBAX plate. The Mach X has a nylon one as well. I do think non-carbon plates, like nylon, are better in training shoes. Nike would solve many issues with the current Zoom Flys (but not all) of they swapped a nylon plate into it like the Tempo has.
@@SagasuRunning I might have to double check the kp having a carbon plate. Alot of review's are stating carbon. It would make sense if the KP has the plastic/nylon plate.
Agree that using only plated shoes in training will weaken some foot and ankle strength, on a similar note a bigger problem for me personally is the heel flare or the foam that is uneven under the heel too soon. As primarily a midfoot to forefoot runner this has reduced the life of training shoes for me e.g. Hoka Clifton 8, New-balance multiple models, Saucony Speed 2 has all started to give me achilles insertion heel pain after only 100 to 200 km. The only shoe free of this problem for me is Brooks Ghost 14 GTX. I am now looking for a non-gtx trainer from brooks because of this heel flare madness.
I couldn’t agree more I really think the real main issues is that every shoe on the market is massive stack hight 35-40mm, stiff and plated and all look the same like there’s no light stability shoes anymore, no real natural shoes, low to moderate cushioning like the freedom iso 2 and the brooks launch series and all those shoes in that category don’t exist anymore as well as real stability shoes. I just don’t understand why everything looks the same and is the same. It absolutely makes zero sense to me. Like just make old school shoes with modern technology. And call it day all this so called “innovation” is wack, truly wack. I work at a local fleet feet and when I tell you the shoe wall is all the same. I had to buy a adidas supernova 2 on adidas. When I get 50% in shoes. Saucony tempus is trash, don’t get me started with how they ruined the guide and the new Kayano 30 is an absolutely joke to me, like changing that was wild simply for the let’s make it softer and higher stack and call it day. Company’s must be drunk when making shoes. Like marketing is hard, reminds me of road bikes problem. Like the new kinvara makes no sense either like no rubber and the stack height and cheap upper. Just really not thoughtful. Skechers is going crazy, I was with them for a while but now they just over doing it. I don’t think it’s just plated shoes, but it’s just all shoes look like a bondi or a carbon X. A company really need to either come out or a new brand really needs to put all these companies to sleep and make high quality thoughtful running shoes again. Like the only shoe category that exist is stable neutral shoes
We are for sure in a “tech sells” era with foams, plates and stacks. Sadly I don’t think we will see a peak until 2024 or 2025. But then things will start to swing in the next direction and whatever new trend is to happen will kick off. Luckily there are still a handful of good neutral and flexible low(er) stack shoes out there still.
I watched the same podcast yesterday and I was confused as well. Not only for kinvara but also for their general stance on running shoes. I've never tried saucony shoe (they don't ship to where I live) before and if I was a brand new costumer I wouldn't pick kinvara pro because it's obvious kinvara pro has an identity crisis. I'm not against training in plated shoes but I'm not fond of brands using plates as justification to drive up the prices and manipulate the costumers into thinking they are buying 'premium' products.
“Tech sells” is the main message I got from both of them. The whole “We don’t prescribe, we just make products” thing at the end was infuriating as well…
The underline issue is brands are making good daily trainers anymore like the Pegasus turbo 1-2, freedom 1-2, the old Pegasus 34.. and so on. But how these training like the superblast, kinvara pro… literally all trendy running shoes are…. Just bad like the endophin speed 3 and 4 are trash
There are still great non-plated daily trainers out there: Puma Velocity Nitro, Adizero SL, Superbove Rise, Pegasus… etc But they don’t move as many units as they don’t have “tech” or seem like they “help” you as much.
I don't see the problem so much. Super trainers they are calling these shoes now. I have all kinds of shoes, plated and non-plated. Lately I mostly run in the Puma Deviate Nitro 2 and I don't notice the plate that much. There's also a big difference in carbon or nylon. And the 'average' runner will probably still buy non-plated as they are cheaper.
You must have flipped your lid when the Saucony folks suggested they don’t prescribe or suggest certain shoes for types of runs or runners 😂 I agree that your concerns are valid, especially if brands restrict your options by only producing a plated Frankensteins of dual density foams. I think Adidas lost a lot of faith in their core customer base after the destruction of the Boston and transforming it into a plated stability shoe with an awful upper.
I commented on that point in these comments elsewhere...but yes. The "We don't prescribe, only make product..." thing was infuriating. One of the core needs of a good product team IS to have a point of view on the product they are creating, which actually Saucony's product team certainly has ("democratizing innovation for all" at best or "more tech, the better" at the worst). Stand behind your product direction, don't take the easy way out. This also makes me think that the product team knows this is not a great direction but the marketing team is driving the bus at the company...so the product team is washing their hands of it all. I've worked in those companies and teams before, it's not fun.
Little stiffness and a bit more cushion cannot hurt. I remember, I don't wanna say pain, but the huge discomfort, when I wanted to run with mininalistic shoes. Everything in it's extremes isn't good.
I would argue a little too stiff and too high of a stack can hurt… if that’s all you run in daily over and over. At least as much as being able to run comfortable in a none stiff and high stack shoe. I will agree too extreme in any direction is not good!
I mostly agree re: the plated trainers. However, marketing driving this (almost surely the case) is not a bad thing. Saucony is a for-profit business and the vast majority of those are driven by marketing. It's incumbent upon them to increase revenue.
Sure. I’m all for that. I’m a product designer after all… I totally get it. That being said it does feel a little like throwing the a average consumer under the bus with a product that ultimately is not great for them. Additionally the Saucony product team seems to uninterested in how their users actually use and understand their products. That rubs me the wrong way.
I agree that the trend is real and the appropriation of formerly non-plated model names is both concerning and misleading. I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say people will “only” be training in plated shoes. As a 60+ runner myself, I credit my more liberal use of plated “super shoes” with allowing me to train more consistently and with higher volume. I still love a regular run in my Adios 7’s and Novablasts, though
An "average runner" who buys 1-2 pairs of shoes a year...will end up running full time in one of these shoes. That being said, some people benefit from time in plates shoes... and as I said in the opening of the video, I have no issue training in plated shoes sometimes, even often... I just don't want to see them be prescribed as the "norm" by the running shoe industry. Though if that happens, it will for sure be a sign of the peak of this tech era in running shoes... and we will definitely be headed to whatever is next.
I think the problem is a much wider trend where running shoe makers are morphing almost their shoe range (race, tempo, easy) to try to fit them all into the "daily trainer" category. My concern is this will reduce our choice range and lead to fewer shoes being available for an effective rotation. As you pointed out, we need different shoes in our range to build muscle and joint strength and to develop the ability to adapt. Anyone else notice this trend?
This has already happening. "Classic" daily trainers (Nike Pegasus, etc) are becoming fewer and fewer. There are some good modern daily trainers (Asics Novablast) but many are just over-designed and over marketed. I've noticed this trend for sure. I think we are only at the start of it as well.
I certainly think there is a trend now and largely adopted by influencers/ShoeTubers that can every shoe do every type of run at every pace for every type of runner. They probably can do so far more than in the days when "flats" did not sell too well as most runners were sort of "told" that they were not for them. Maybe there is also inverted snobbery. Saw a vid yesterday where a sub 4 miler says often does interval sessions in the Ghost 15. I am not exactly "enthusiast" doing shortish easy runs in them despite that seemingly being the "point" of them.
@@TimGrose The fact is fast runners...just get on with it and likely will be fast in any shoe. Also, I agree with your that this "shoetube" space we are in has really turned the spotlight on a few select models that brands want to be featured... much more than the magazine ever could. It's a fine line here... wanting to talk about these shoes we love while remaining an independent voice in the space. Something I have some strong opinions on that will come out over time I guess. I'm all for getting more people running and all this shoe tech does that, great. I'm also all for those of us more into training and performance running having tech options to choose from. It is just that I'm afraid the entire industry is swinging in one direction now and it will be a bit before we see some new ideas.
@@SagasuRunning Pegasus is a good example of that. Seen many references to Nike elites doing lots of miles in them and even some sessions. Some ShoeTubers just turn their nose up at them as outdated, too firm, too boring etc. All valid points but on easy days when you just need to get some miles in then I feel you just want something to "put on". That sort of shoe isn't £200 either!
@@TimGrose The Pegasus is hands down my favorite shoe form Nike. It’s the one I spend the most time in and find very exciting. I am especially enjoying the 40. I will have an update video coming about it soon. It’s a shoe many would be better off spending g more time in. All the Japanese Elites train in Pegs, especially those around Suguru Osako… and yes you do see most of the East African runners, besides Kipchoge, in Pegs often. Also the Bowerman Elite all train in Pegs. The Peg is a strong shoe and these is a reason I have a lot of Peg content on my channel.
Hoka IS having a moment as a lifestyle brand right now. The ironic thing is their main consumer seems to like them for their low-fi and nostalgic vibe (80s’ish vibe) and as the “anti-tech” brand (the opposite of Nike or Adidas)… I guess Hoka is trying to have the best of all worlds.
How I understood the interview on DoR, Kinvara forcthem stands for democratizing new tech for the everyday runner. Not ‘jumping on trends’. I do fully agree with you that it’s a niche shoe that’s hard to pinpoint correctly and most buyers won’t. That might be a problem if it’s their only shoe (or maybe not?). Them again: I see some runners that do every single run, slowly and with poor form, in an Alphafly. They’d probably are better served with a Kinvara Pro…. Tech sure made running shoes more confusing 🙈
They would possibly be better served by a Brooks 15, Peg 39/40 , Puma Velocity or Reebok floatride bla bla .. at half the cost in some cases .. 'democratizing new tech for the everyday runner' sound like spin to me .. but hey, I am sure they will sell bucket loads.
@@JohnBirtchetSharpe totally agree that a daily trainer would probably be best! Thing is: the new tech is there, it's fancy, it's sexy and everybody seems to want a piece of it. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing when it gets implemented in a package that's actually designed for everyday runners. So that idea: I get it. But for the Kinvara Pro: completely over engineered If you ask me... And bad marketing on top of that: 'Kinvara' has been associated with low drop, low tech minimalism for 14 iterations, 'pro' is usually associated with shoes for fast running. This shoe is neither 😂
They used the word "trend" as well. It's both. Saucony has been very good at democratizing tech over the past year or two... that was the Endorphin series. The KP seems a bit like an attempt to to do that again, while at the same time convoluting their existing product line.
I find the Kinvara Pro a hidius idea.. I don't do well with mixed foams.. However.. My friend who is a good runner got them on Prime discount (how.. 😂) and he says they are amazing for slow long runs.. I personally don't buy anything heavier than 260 gr.
The Kinvara name because the outsole is a Kinvara.. If it was a light shoe (230gr) it would make sense to run in but why bother.. I think it is a marketing answer to the Superblast. But it's so much heavier.. I personally don't care if it's plated or not. I do care if its flexible. No flexibility makes the heel slip so you need much better heel cup..ie lock down. For slow runs you need the flexibility to bend your toes etc.. So the shoes are actually fighting our mechanics. For some it's good in repairing the deficiency caused by injury or my age...
The Superblast is a MUCH better and more versatile shoe all around though that more runners will be better suited in and ultimately learn to run better. I do agree it is Saucony’s answer to it though. And yes…you nailed why having a flexible shoe for a daily trainer is SO important. 100% agree! 👍🏻
The Kinvara has always been an uptempo shoe for faster workouts, The Pro seems to be positioned as a enhancement. I hope that runners do not see this as a daily trainer.
@@SagasuRunning It sure appears that Saucony has redefined the purpose of the Kinvara with its Pro moniker. I hope that they continue to offer the Kinvara as it was meant to be used, perhaps we will see a Kinvara 15..
Shoe companies could sell runners whatever they want, regardless of the effective benefit/advantage of the product. Just think of the barefoot shoe craze ! Orthopaedics' and chiropractics' heaven. Then, soon after, boom !! It comes Hoka ... Nowadays, whoever care about 10mm. stacks (and maybe zero drop..) ? I heard even Altra has a new NON zero drop shoe coming soon. Fear of losing market shares, I'd say ??...
It's a misconception of the design process. It might have been an established and customer oriented. Carbon have stirred it and placed UP side DOWN. Catching Vaporfly has made every brand going through so many tests and concept designs, it was just a matter of time many of those would surface. No matter the names THESE NEW KIDS just couldn't get shelved! Unfortunately, it's the same for cinema industry. Market is flooded with Marvels and copy paste sitcoms. I'm not amused. We'll see 🤷♂️
This is why I mentioned that many of these products we are seeing now in this "super trainer" class were started back in 2020 (2-3 years product dev cycles at least). That was the era of all other running shoe brands frantically trying to catch Nike by "just put a plate in it and hope for the best". It seems that we are just now seeing the final wave this methodology.
Up next: carbon plated walking shoes🤭 Blame hoka, got regular folks walking around on 40mm super foam doing standard things, so the next logical thing is throw carbon at them. I run A LOT, I only train carbon once a week, but I also cycle in toe shoes once a week. Imagine only running in a slab of one type of something, or worse yet, relying on the mechanical doping…..nah bruh, can’t be me.
Given Hoka is in a HUGE casual market growth phase (have been since 2020) I expect to see more and more carbon plated lifestyle shoes coming up for the brand. I know you said it as a joke... but i don't think you are far off the mark.
