What is dunder? How is it different from muck? Why is muck & dunder used to make some rums? And what does it look like under a microscope? Join Patreon: / thisblogsneat
Glad I found your video. Wonderful to listen to someone educated instead of some of the talking heads that just repeated something someone heard from someone else.
This video completely fulfilled what I needed to know about dunder! The image of the mold is Exactly what I have in my dunder bucket! If not for that I would not have found out that my mold was Normal! I'm working on my new banana rum!
Hurray for the RU-vid algorithm sending you my way!! Loved the content and will now have to deep dive through the rest of your posts. Think I’ll need to invest in a microscope to have a peer into my dunder pits. Thanks Robin 👍
Thank you for this video. Both informative, entertaining and well presented and topic explained in understandable way. You earned your new subscriber. Lookin fwd to your next videos and exploring the old ones. Cheers (with a glass of high-ester Jamaica rum in my hand).
I'm just starting out on what I hope will be an ongoing journey of experimentation with rum, dunder and muck! The view from under your microscope is fascinating to see. Please keep the excellent videos coming!
I LOVE rum, but if I were to describe a Jamaican rum, like Ten to One, or Smith and Cross, I'll borrow a line from Hawkeye Pierce - "If you take a rotten egg, and put it in an old shoe and bury it under a chicken coop, but a brown egg, it's got to be a BROWN egg!"
I was always told that Dunder was simply the lees and left overs from a Rum fermentation. Never knew it was actually the backset. Thanks for the info. Subbed.
Hi Robyn, what a great video. I just stumbled across it on a german distilling forum (of all places) and I can't believe you don't have a bigger following on this channel by now if this is the kind of content you make. I'll definitely be checking out your other videos as well and use this one as a resource for when I start my own rum adventure, hopefully soon. Thanks!
Yeah, I think it's possible there is some brett in here! But interestingly, I haven't been able to find any articles identifying brett as a species of yeast in dunder... from the research I've seen, it's mostly various saccharomyces species along with various candida and hansenula species. And of course schizosaccharomyces pombe! I'll have a video coming out shortly where I discuss this in relation to my aged dunder experiments!
I am a longtime home distiller. I love working with grains and stuff and also love fermenting molasses but anytime I've ever tried doing rum,it never came out tasting like what I know as "rum". Now I am attempting it again and I'm going to try and use dunder to make it better and this episode has taught me more than all of the other distilling channels,very much appreciated
@@RobynSmithPhD Well I will quote Elon "The most ironic explanation tends to be the correct one" :) Really great videos! Seriously great. I'll sign us up for Patreon when I get a chance to sit down this eve.
@@RobynSmithPhD Absolutely. I’ve heard of dunder, back set and sour mash. I’m a shine/whiskey distiller… Thanks for the information. Life is a constant learning process. I learned a lot from this video. Best wishes.😊🥃
Rum was originally made from Jamaican sugar cane waste, probably for the slaves. SO it would have the cheapest ingredients and everything would be the waste from a process somewhere so there is no doubt that everything would be reused as far as possible.
Do you have any references for that, because I am doubting that rum was made just for slaves. I know that the molasses and sugar were exported. Why gives slaves rum, unless to placate them?
Within my deep dives, sugarcane came over from Southeast Asia maybe India, and was transplanted into the Caribbean and the process of distillation may have come up potentially from a place in Brazil and the earliest recordings of rum were likely in Nevis or Martinique. I’ve also heard that it might’ve been pulled from slaves but that really makes no sense if you’re a business owner and you’re making products the last thing you want is your employees/slaves getting drunk on the job or getting rowdy. It’s quite possible though that because true freshwater without microbes was so scarce they ended up making a weak molasses-based beer to give the slaves to drink so they wouldn’t get sick off regular regular groundwater. And then some enterprising person realized well if it’s fermented maybe we can make it stronger by distilling it. All of this occurred a little prior to 1630 so maybe the mid-1500s. From a strict numbers and books perspective if you can keep your manpower moving and not getting sick and working by giving them waste byproduct off your production runs it also helps with storage and waste elimination of leftovers that aren’t marketable for profit. I would imagine their drinks for the day were some kind of mix of molasses stillage and maybe some water that sat in jugs and got fermented. From thinking it out I think that’s the highest likely probability.
You're going to assume I'm not a rum fan. 😳 As for sweet. I couldn't believe several rums I've tried, Zaya and Plantation Barbados were two, didn't have sugar. I ran them on our HPLC and nope - none. Some rum is just sweet.
Yeah, you're right that some rums are sweet without actually being sweetened! Just like how whiskeys and brandies can be sweet without being sweetened. Unfortunately, rum gets the reputation of being sweet because a lot of rums we're first introduced to are sweetened (flashback to the rums I drank in college). That's the impression I had of rum before I was introduced to good rums! That's really cool that you got to run those on an HPLC! I've only done GCMS analysis of spirits, but was pushing to get an HPLC for my lab too... one day!
The stuff I made was sweet af. I made it with molasses and table sugar and distilled it with a setup I cobbled together from a pressure cooker pot and some lab glassware with some copper wire inserted into the column. I was surprised how sweet the distillate was compared with other things I had distilled.
Well done on this video. Best description I have seen so far, and many have tried! Yes that school chem mantra came back " acid + alcohol = ester + water" and you gave a great example of that. It explains a lot about dunder and muck and why they work. Also explains, not mentioned in the video, is making run essence from dunder + alcohol, a la Bucaneer Bobs rum. I originally though the alcohol was a preservative only - but I guess "a+a=e+w" also applies here! From Oz..
Thanks so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I've never actually tried to make Buccaneer Bob's rum essence, have you? There's something about adding dunder to a delicious spirit that has held me back from doing it. But I'd be really interested to quantify how much esterification is occurring, so next time I have some spare rum lying around, I'll give it a try!
@@RobynSmithPhD Supposedly the quality of the dunder improves with each fermentation "generation". After each distilling run you add some of its dunder to the pit and add some of the updated pit contents to the next wash prior to fermentation. Its supposed to reach some sort of optimum after 5 generations - so that what I'm trying!! The "essence" will be 250ml of the dunder from the striping run of the 5th generation wash. Then when you combine the low wines and do a final spirt run, add 250ml of the heart cut to complete the essence ( let it clear and siphon and all that). I've done 3 generations so far. I will post back with the findings when I'm done. BTW you can make good quality drinkable product by adding commercial rum essence to your best neutral. Normally I hate essences, but the run ones seem to work. But why do that when you can go to immense trouble and expense to do it the Buccaneer Bob way!
@@brendancurtin6378 how cool! I didn’t realize it takes 5 generations to reach its optimum and I wonder why! My dunder pit is around 3rd or 4th gen and I can confirm that my it has continued to smell better with each batch. I guess this means I should do another rum run! Let me know how yours turns out!
@@RobynSmithPhD Well maybe not "optimum" in the sense of a peak in a curve a la Mr Newton, but at least diminishing returns after that. May I ask if any special rum recipe? Straight molasses or adding sugar?
@@brendancurtin6378 I wouldn’t say I have a special rum recipe, hence the experiments adding various amounts of dunder to the fermented and with mixing in queen palm juice, but my standard rum recipe just uses molasses. Regular Grandma’s unsulfured baking grade molasses, water, yeast and some yeast nutrient! I don’t mix in black strap or sugar.
Hi Robyn, Thanks for a wonderful and informative video. I have a few quick questions for you about your dunder / muck process. Do you ever use a product like "turbo clear" to clearify your molasis wash / drop out the yeast before you siphon it to your still ?? And would a product like that affect the "Lees". Second..... When do you add your muck to the next fermentation ?? At the beginning or at the end of that particular process... Thanks again and keep up the great videos.. I look forward to learning more about this process ( hobby distilling ) and seeing how your projects turn out.. 👍
Thanks, Chris! I’m glad to hear you enjoyed the video! I have not used turbo clear before… I just do my best to keep as much of the lees out as I can when siphoning. That usually entails using a funnel with a fine mesh in it. And this was my first time using dunder in a rum fermentation, but I added it essentially in place of water, so right at the beginning of fermentation! I treated it similarly to how I would using backset for a whiskey. Hopefully I’ll have a video up soon about the results (the molasses ferments tend to last a long time for me)!
Hey Chris, regarding when to add the muck: Authentic Caribbean Rum channel has a video called Rum Talk with Hampden Estate, in which they talk about this in the Q&A in the 2nd half of the video. They add it a "couple of days before the end". Cheers
I had no idea that muck and dunder were different. Rum in on my radar to produce, and using 'backset' for subsequent fermentations is on my radar. Keeping a 'muck pit' is not something I am quite ready to attempt...
Have you tried the Black Pearl molasses ? I was going too this week , price wasn't too bad for the product , but 3X the price for shipping and handling was more than this Texas boy was willing to pay .
I haven’t… I have access to 1 gallon jugs of Grandma’s molasses (baking grade) at my local grocery store and I find that works great! I have yet to experiment with any type of black strap molasses, but I really enjoy the flavors from baking molasses.
I tried this also, but I did not go far enough, My rum result after the pot still is more like St.Lucia, it's the closest I can relate it too. I tried following the Mount Gay process as much as possible at home, lol. It's going to get better though! Makes us all drunk as fuck though but flavors need work. No vomit more fruity but there's some weirdness still which is not spice, lol.
I live in southwest Virginia, I'm doing my first batch of all blackstrap molasses rum,I intend on letting the leftover stillage turn into dunder but it's really cold outside and is going to get much colder in the coming months. Any thoughts on what to expect from this?
That’s a really great question! I’m honestly not sure, but I’d definitely say you should give it a shot. Even if the microbes can’t handle the cold, there are some good things in the dunder that will add nice flavor to the rum wash! So regardless, it’s worth keeping!
Hi, thanx for the interesting information. Would the yeast you found in the dunder be enough to start a new fermentation? I have a few liters of dunder sitting for years now. It smells like real dark Soy-sauce. As a beginner (i have a small Alquitara) i pretty much lost interest in Rum after the first try because of all the different information you have to go through and my result was rather dull. I went for the (dutch) jenevers and eau de vie's/brandys an liquors but your video might have sparkled a new interest in Rum. Thanx
Hi! That's a really great question and I think the answer is yes, there should be enough yeast (and bacteria) in dunder to ferment a rum wash without needing to add any commercial yeast. However, since your dunder has been sitting for a while, I'm not sure how much microbial activity there is left in the dunder itself. Regardless, surrounding yeast will be able to ferment a rum wash. So give it a try! I will say that using 40% of my 6-month-old dunder negatively impacted the fermentation even when I added in distillers yeast. So I would suggest trying out a smaller amount of dunder. I plan to run another experiment where I allow the 20% dunder fermentation to naturally ferment. Anyways, I'm excited to hear that you might try making rums again! I also really enjoy making eau de vies. Let me know how your rums turn out!
@@RobynSmithPhD thanx for the reply. I will give it a try with 20% of dunder in the new fermentation. The molasse i have left is also sitting unemployed in the basement and is only now and then used as a fertilizer for my garden. Tomatoes and her relatives love it. I will keep you informed and thanx for the enthousiasm..
That's a really excellent question... I just did some digging on the home distiller forums to find actual quantities and one person said they add 1/2 tablespoon per 10 liters of wash. From what I remember seeing on other threads, this is a good starting point. Are you planning to try this out?
Hello and thank you for this video; there's really not much to find on dunder and muck that's relevant to using it in rum procedures. I myself am experimenting on "brum" with sugar beet molasses in Europe which gives interesting results with the correct yeast, but I would like to try on dunder and muck in this too. Last year over summer I kept some stillage (dunder) and it created some interesting bacterial infections, but with temperature drop in the fall, it started getting really dirty and I decided to throw it away. I never tried to create a muck pit, but I kept some of the last fermentation in a bucket just in case it's useable. My question is, since I never tried high ester on sugar cane molasses > how much of each (muck and dunder) do you use in the fermentation (say for a 25l wash), at which t° do you keep the dunder and muck in stock, after which time would it be useable and which bacteria do you suggest on using for the muck pit. I am following a distillation course and the teacher told us it's very hard to get a dunder working from scratch. He had to get his hands on a sample from the Carribean and he stays very mysterious about anything else. Can you help me out with any advise please? Thanks a lot!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you found your way over to my channel! I have never played around with sugar beet molasses... I'd be really interested to taste that alongside rum made with sugar cane molasses. You have excellent questions! I hope I'll be able to provide enough guidance, but ultimately, I don't have the perfect recipe figured out. There are many methods out there and it requires a lot of experimenting. I think that's the exciting part! Anyway, my dunder bucket is mostly stillage, which is why I refer to it as a dunder instead of muck, however I also add in the lees from each rum batch into it along with the new stillage. I haven't purposefully inoculated the dunder with any specific microbes... what's in there has come from the lees and developed naturally. The longer the dunder sits in the bucket, the more it changes visibly and there is a lot of microbial activity (both yeast and bacteria). I've found that adding 40% of this dunder into the fermentation negatively impacts fermentation, whereas 20% does not. So I'd say that 30% dunder is about how much you'd want to add in (unless you're pasteurizing the dunder before it goes into the fermenter). Some people don't add dunder in until distillation, so you can play around with that too. My suggestion is to start experimenting with dunder before attempting to add muck to the mix. I haven't gone so far as to create full blown muck, which some say requires close monitoring of the pH and regular addition of marl. I have a hard time believing that Jamaican rum distilleries were closely monitoring the pH of their muck pit back in the day though. My guess is that they're most likely using the smell of the muck pit to make any necessary changes. Regardless, I'm not sure that there's a proper method for starting a muck pit... or at least I haven't been able to find a concrete method. The goal of the muck is to add in a variety of short and long chain fatty acids so that those acids can esterify and produce delightful fruity flavors. I think that means creating an environment where a variety of microbes can coexist. And if you are able to create muck, from what I've read, adding 10% muck to the fermentation/wash should be sufficient. You're right that people tend to keep muck a mystery! Let me know how your experimentation goes!
@@RobynSmithPhD Thanks for your answer. The sugar beet molasses contain similar organic acids, but in different proportions then cane molasses. Also, the sugars are more complex, so we need to heaten to 79°C max with some enzymes and a lot of yeast nutrient in order get them fermentable by a DistillaMax RM. I use the beet molasses because it's a local product where I live, and cane molasses is import. The result is a very fruity fermentation (4 weeks 30°C+) and off the still the caramel and vanilla notes are present. With some good ageing, you get a descent distillate. I have my exams in distilling tomorrow, I have asked for the teachers to look in to my procedures for more tips :) This summer I will start with the dunder experiments again; what I have now is quite OK for a beet-rum without dunder, but I wonder what'll be next. I will keep you posted.
I hope your going to spew in that dunder bucket. One other ingredient they used in the best Jamaican Rums in the 1800's was the contents of a chamber pot (Not Kidding), so in the interests of science and tasty rum you need to step up lady. I am pretty sure its OK to throw the paper in too:) don't forget to wash your hands afterwards in the interests of Hygiene after all we don't want you spreading germs LOL.
Haha this is just a dunder bucket, not a muck pit. And even though I am guilty of spreading the legend that is the involvement of chamber pots in fermenting high ester rums, I’m almost certain it is a fallacy that came from distillers trying to throw other distillers off their scent. Same with goats heads haha.
@@RobynSmithPhD From the research I have done I am pretty sure its a real thing. The urine in the chamber pot would actually be a valuable yeast nutrient. Animals or parts of animals would wind up in muck pits. Its a risky thing, I once or twice got an infection in a batch of fermented Molasses and decided to distil it any way. One such batch would give you a frontal lobe headache after just one shot. Another batch would give you the most horrific nightmares.
@@MegaDavyk that’s interesting! Do you have any resources you can share with me? I haven’t found any written documentation that would suggest that the myths of chamber pots and goat heads held any truth.
Great question! What is the ABV coming off your still when you stop collecting hearts? I think generally it's safe to assume that the ABV in your dunder is low enough that it's insignificant and shouldn't impact the growth of any microbes.
@@RobynSmithPhD I typically run a reflux setup. I will stop collecting when pot is between 204-206, In combination with the ABV starting to nose dive, and obvious odor change. The rig usually stays flat at about 180 proof, then starts to dive, I usually cut off about 165 or so.
Amazing question! I think as long as the dunder bucket smells good, keep it and use it! If it smells very off putting, it should go. I've read that some home distillers have had their dunder buckets for multiple years and legend has it that the dunder pits at Jamaican rum distilleries are just as old as the distillery. Of course, there is new dunder cycling in as old dunder is used.
So you're like, wait for it, a muckrobiologist? Sigh... BTW I think the olive aroma is something my nose reads more like soy sauce and I think it comes from lysing and peptonizing the the yeast lees which is something the lactobacillus in there are good at doing. Also, I find a lot of the better carboxylic bacteria like a higher pH, C. butyricum for example prefers 5-6 pH, propionibacterium prefer 5-7, while acetobacter (boring carboxylic acid) is fine down to like 3-3.5. So I use a slurry of CaOH2 (pickling lime) to bump it up occasionally, though at some point you'll probably start precipitating more salts than you are forming acids so I don't try to maintain it constantly. I think it's the kitchen version of the use of marl in Jamaica. You can always let it ferment the pH back down if you really need it to lower the ferment pH.
Haha muckrobiologist! Love it! How are you determining when to add pickling lime to your dunder? That seems like it would be an art, and I haven't tried to play around with that at all.
@@RobynSmithPhD Like most things I over think the science when its thinking time but when its doing time I just fly by whim and fancy. So I just stick a pH meter in it when I think of it and decide from there with some thought to how long it's been sitting and how much longer it will sit before I use it. Cheers.
Sorry about that… I haven’t added any word filters (didn’t even know that was a thing) and have never deleted a comment. I’ll check out my settings and see why comments would get deleted without me being notified first.
@@RobynSmithPhD Hmmm....OK then. Sorry to be snippy with you......YT is getting to be several degrees beyond stupid with their censorship. I take it back.
@@theghostofsw6276 No worries! I don't see anything in my settings that would cause a comment to be automatically deleted, so I'm not sure what went wrong. I apologize for whatever's going on on YT's end! If there's something I can do to fix it, I will!
