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Im currently at around 1hr ish but, in the "Everyone will be better as a Zerker" part im surprised that despite mentioning how busted Supports are several times, no one has made the connection, The Supports themselves will be worse as zerkers. Can you imagine a Castoria or Merlin berserker? No you dont need to imagine it , it alredy exist and is Nightingale and she Suuuuuuuucks. There is a reason they never have tried again, and no one has ever asked for it again.
The issue with Nightingale is that she’s a Support that’s about sustainability as a Berserker with no hard survival. Of course she sucked. And even with hard survival options ‘tanky’ support servants would be made worse by being a Zerk. However support servants whose entire purpose in life is to be thrown onto the field, click all their skills immediately, then get order shuffled away would be made better as a Zerk. Specially Koyanskaya as well as most low star supports. Because then in challenge quests they’ll come in, cast their skills, die fast, and your next support comes in all the easier. Also in farming it wouldn’t make much of any impact, you’re never getting hit typically unless things go wrong. In that case even Castoria and Merlin could benefit as Berserkers if your team is undertones for the node and you need a little help in carding to push yourself over.
@@davidphillips-zee1083Of course I was referring mostly to sustain supports. But honestly even the "blitz" type of support might die too fast. The support might die early and make the next one come out at a really bad time, or using their skills in that particular turn might be wasteful. So you might need to wait a turn or 2, which, being berserkers, adds even more RNG to the run In regular content is whatever, but CQs are finicky by nature, adding even more randomness to it is not always an upgrade
@@aablanco48 I mean if it’s a blitz run then that RNG shouldn’t be too hard. Unlike in sustain where you’re crossing your finger’s hoping you don’t lose on turn 17 because the enemies all targeted the hypothetical zerker Castoria. Well, the regular Castoria but changed to a Zerker class, lol. But again, if your run in a CQ gets screwed on turn two because your enemy didn’t hit a support you wanted to die, then it’s obviously not that hard to try again. It’s rng sure, but it does open up different, if not maybe more strategy’s. It’s a ‘side-grade’ for non sustain supports, while a downgrade for the support themselves. Also, one bad take you need to cop to is that Nightingale is not Castoria or Merlin as a Berserker. If you gave Merlin or Castoria’s kit to a Berserker class, that character would be a better support than Nightingale’s kit on a Caster class. Oh, and one final point of note you’ve missed, Berserker’s have the lowest star weight. So your main DPS won’t even need Star Gather to absorb basically everything. Granted, that’s if the Supports were made Zerks only. Which, now that I think about it could make for an interesting quick support. But that’s just idle thoughts now.
Definitely agree that grails really aren't that limited of a resource anymore. Just did a count of used and unused grails and I have total of 137 on JP, I could have more with grail casting but stopped bothering a long time ago because I just don't need the grails. Been playing a bit less than 3 years. Everyone's different but I just don't have THAT many favorites, I've already done a few gameplay grails and I'm still sitting on 40+ grails.
@@PlushieMistress valid i prob just didn’t get far enough in the discussion yet then. I commented about 25 minutes in but I’m heading to the gym now and i normally listen while i work out so I’m sure I’ll get to it soon
I don’t think Ibuki is revolutionary, she’s just niche defining. They decided to let themselves cook and not hobble themselves, which they tend to do. Ibuki summer arguably shouldn’t have been printed as she was, since she straight up invalidated Musashi Summer, even for CQ. I don’t participate in the dogma that Musashi was ever better for CQ than Ibuki in the 1.5 years since Ibuki dropped. Obviously the buff changes that kind of, but not really. If you were going to go for 5 NP copies of Art AoE berserker, you’d be better served with 5 Summer Ibuki rather than 3 Ibuki and 2 Musashi or whatever. They were just too similar and one was better, and trying to partition the niches at such an atomic level was silly. Ibuki still has a ton of CQ potential and is far, far from just a farmer. That whole line of reasoning was always cope before the buff.
That is the advantage of being arts. Even if you lack something as a dps( in ibuki's case, survivability) there is always a support that can fill the gaps.
I feel like the argument of having 1 class that the alter egos can't hit doesn't make much sense when you think that you can bring other units to support. You need to bring units to make berserkers survive, what's the difference really between that and bringing someone to put down 1 unit in a CQ? Like, I even believe that it makes for funnier gameplay.
Otto, I think I either have your NA account or your doppelganger's on my support list. Just realized it by coincidence a couple of days ago when I saw that this support has a lv120 and a lv80 Queen of sheba, both at np5. Though admitably still call if a potential doppelganger since he also has a lv100 np5 murasaki caster and a lv120 np5 shuten douji. Name on the account is even Otto.
I dont think Ibuki is a tier above Arjuna Alter and Morgan. All 3 require high invesment, all 3 are used in 90++ and all 3 are good in CQs. Sure Ibuki is the best one of all them but a tier above?
Probably never. The further we got into the first part, the more apparent it was becoming that we were trying to do too much. Sorry for the really late reply.
Artoria Caster berserker is way better than Summer Ibuki berserker tho... former has much stronger survival (just kits wise, ignoring AOE vs ST). Ibuki can absolutely be a pain to keep alive in CQs where enemies have AOE Nps.
Avengers > berserkers 1. Neutral defensively in most cases 2. Better passives 3. The 1.5 advantage diminishes when conparing highly invested units ( i have no proof nor calculation just spouting nonsense lol) 4. Avengers deals one of the best damage against berserkers amongst all classes 5. My top 3 waifus are avengers class (definitely not my main reason and im not biased Kappa)
I think for S. Ibuki to be EX+ she has to be able to replace an EX+ support and do as good as said meta support in at least a notable amount of situations. ie NP1 S. Ibuki with Waver, Reines, Oberon vs NP1 Spishtar Castoria, Waver, Oberon Meanwhile Melusine who I do think is EX+ can do that. Melusine with Waver, Reines, Oberon vs Ereshkigal with Waver, Koyanskaya, Oberon (or Ereshkigal double Koyanskaya Waver) Melusine does win. or Tezcatlipoca who I think is EX+ compare double Koyanskaya to double Tezcatlipoca. One needs Kscope, the other can use any CE. Sure you can plug in Oberon for Koyan and it helps more than Oberon does to double Tezcatlipoca, but running no plug comps is a fairly common situation. you aren't going to run double Summer Ibuki and do better than double Castoria Summer Ibuki in any situation.
-And since Castoria can't do damage as a caster, she is worse than Ibuki. Isolating a servant from their best use cases and then saying that they are worse than Castoria is very poor logic
@@Ottobean By that logic nearly everyone should be EX+ Phantom in best use case lets Saber Medusa or Kama do things that Summer Skadi doesn't because of debuff res down should he be EX+? There's been CQs where Alexander in place of Skadi would have ended the fight a turn faster because of his buff removal. Should he be EX+? Reines or Waver work better than Koyanskaya or Summer Skadi when looping Amakusa Shirou or Voyager should they be EX+? EX+ isn't just about being the best in their specific use case, it's about creating new use cases entirely.
@@adrastos8401 When part of the reason why Ibuki is so broken is because she has so many strong use cases, it's very unfair to ignore them just to try and force her to only be a support. She's not weak as a support, but if your main reasoning for ranking her lower is because she is weaker than Castoria, then you have dogshit logic. You're barely coherent in your first comment, but from what I can glean, you're ignoring the rules of the list. All meta supports are assumed. A servant can be EX+ without being a support. I might have phrased it poorly back then, but Tez is going to be up there too. Lastly, it's not your tier list, so your own rules don't matter.
@@OttobeanYou misunderstood, I am not ranking her as a support. Melusine has literally 0 support skills and could never support anyone. But she still deserves EX+ IMO. Ibuki isn't just weaker than Castoria, all the suggested EX+ servants (except Castoria) are obviously weaker than Castoria. It is the lack of changing anything. Unless you rate basically every decent arts omnilooper in EX+ you can't rate Summer Ibuki in EX+. EX sure, EX+ no. Because they don't change anything. Summer Ibuki might be a very strong omnilooper, but she is only one in a long line. I am not making up the rules, I am following the rules stated by Myst. Which is game changers, specifically in reference to meta supports. Though Van Gogh was brought up as a non-meta support that could be put in EX+
@@adrastos8401 "I think for S. Ibuki to be EX+ she has to be able to replace an EX+ support and do as good as said meta support in at least a notable amount of situations. ie NP1 S. Ibuki with Waver, Reines, Oberon vs NP1 Spishtar Castoria, Waver, Oberon" You started the entire conversation by stating that she has to replace a support (btw that isn't a rule, and you treat it as such), and then proceeded to downplay her effectiveness by comparing her to Castoria. "you aren't going to run double Summer Ibuki and do better than double Castoria Summer Ibuki in any situation." "Unless you rate basically every decent arts omnilooper in EX+ you can't rate Summer Ibuki in EX+." Summer Ibuki isn't a decent omnilooper. She is the best one in the game. Her looping is very easy to enable, the damage is higher than most of the competition because she is a berserker with anti-earth, and she is really solid in multi-core. Her CQ performance is excellent, she has supportive tools, and her only downside is a lack of survival, which isn't a problem because Castoria covers that. Spishtar is a farmer with no particular sell in CQ's. Skama is a farmer that has some good tools for CQ's, but she is at the mercy of the enemy's ability to resist charm. I get that people's perception of Ibuki is that she is just the next omnilooper of the bunch, but people like that are not thinking objectively. Ibuki is miles beyond what Spishtar was.
