The steam trains that don't require steam - Fireless Locomotives 

WOOOOAH! Steam engine with no fire

Fireless locomotives are some of my favourite little quirks of engineering! Especially the fact that they required specialised radiator fins on the pistons to prevent them from freezing solid due to the temperature drop caused by rapidly expanding air, and the truly bizarre looking ones that originated from the realisation that lots of tiny storage cylinders could allow drastically higher pressures- and resultingly, ranges- than a single big one.

Another interesting fireless steam locomotive were the Swiss steam engines that used electric overhead wires to power a resistive heater element to heat steam. Because there was a coal shortage in Switzerland during WWII, but they had enough hydro power.

Back in 1961 I was taken on a tour of our local power station where I was shown the two fireless locos and the railway line connection to the main line coal yard a half mile away. I was invited back the next week and spent the greater part of the day on the footplate and then driving one of the locos, collecting coal wagons and returning the empties. It was bliss and I have never forgotten it. I was 13 at the time.

Fireless engines always have their own charm. I mean their boilers are so fat and bulky it’s comedic!

0:00 "When you really think about it, all you need to run a steam locomotive is a lot of pressure" Me: Would peer pressure work?

Guess these tank engines weren’t such a “blown up” waste after all. In all seriousness they do look like a tanker disguised as a steam engine and a more reliable one at that

They were also used in places where open flame could be an explosion risk. I saw one of them at the old Gretna munitions factory.

Two additions. Some fireless engines used caustic soda dissolution to produce extra heat. They were more effective than simple fireless engine but aggressive compounds provoked corrosion and could cause serious burns. The earliest russian pneumatic locomotives was "Dukhokhod" (it can be translated as "pneumomotive") built by Baranovsky in Saint-Petersburg in 1861. Although it had several progressive engineering solutions it was retired soon as the maintenance was too difficult.

Greetings from America! I live in St. Louis, Missouri, close to the National Museum of Transportation at 2933 Barrett Station Road. There are at least two "Fireless Locomotives" there on display. One is the 0-4-0 switcher "National Cash Register #7 Locomotive," AKA "The South Park," (no, really,) built in 1910. The other is the 0-6-0 switcher "Union Electric Locomotive #2," built in 1940, with its famous "Smiley Face" painted on the front. Both were used in industrial situations where a firebox would have been dangerous, but where plenty of superheated water was on tap. Thanks for sharing this with us! 440th (4-4-0?) Like.

I think i can say this is basically "battery locomotives" back in the early days of railway

They ran one of those things in the local steel plant , had charging stations all around the yard . The steel plant has plenty of steam available

There’s a compressed-air engine at the Toronto rail museum, it’s so tiny I can’t see anyone actually using the cab unless they had a very short stool to sit on, but a cab it has! If I recall correctly it was used at a flour mill, not somewhere you want a fire hazard.

Here in Slovenia, we have a standard gauge fireless steam locomotive LBV-04, still in use at the thermal cogeneration (TETOL) in Moste, eastern part of Ljubljana and I just recently found out as well! Besides its the only steam locomotive in regular service in our country.

Dinky, a small American fireless engine, still exists on display near the beaches of Harbor Beach, MI, right next to the plant (a mine, prior) it served. Pretty cool little guy, with a nice board nearby explaining the area's former railroading past.

Tom Stanton needs to make this into an O-gauge toy train.

A Fireless locomotive is flash-proof I believe. Unless you count the friction of the flanges against the rails on tight corners. If you have a massive source of steam on-site they would make sense even today. One was retained for a long time at Glaxo Chemicals in Ulverston UK as late as 1992.

Fun fact: the tram car shown from 1:50 (with lettering BAERENGRABEN 5 BAHNHOF FRIEDHOF) is not powered by steam but by compressed air. It ran in the Swiss city of Bern, was built locally in 1890, retired and scrapped in 1901

I have seen a couple of Fireless steam locomotives at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, which are Pennsylvania Power & Light Co. 4094 (The largest Fireless steam locomotive in the world, and was later became basis for Streamlined version of Thomas the Tank Engine in the Great Rave 2016), and Bethlehem Steel No. 111.

Ah yes, the locomotives that looks like a toilet paper tube on a flatbed. Actually very unique.

the ones in the dayton caroline museum are interesting old examples that once saved the city after it flooded since they were capable of operating in the flood waters and were so massively heavy they kept traction. one of the interesting things is they actually kept boiling water as they were mostly filled with water then blasted with superheated steam until they reached the peak temperature

Lots of chemical plants used fireless loco's in their plants. When you have lots of steam avialble for production reasons it makes sense. f.e.the last ones were retired at Shell in the 90's! Only when battery powered loco's were reliable/safe (explosion safe) enough they were replaced.

Ptomac electric and power had one at a coal fired plant in northern VA. It was used to shunt coal cars in and out of the plant, and was replenished from the huge boilers of the plant. They did this because a steamer with fire ran the risk of setting fire to the coal piles inside the plant.

YES! I was hoping you'd talk about these engines every since I first heard about them. Thank you.

I had no idea these quirky little machines existed, let alone be useful in so many situations! I absolutely love this channel! (btw, what's the name of the music in the beckground? I swear I've heard it in a Nintendo game before)

Flywheel locos next please. A local colliery here in the UK trialed one on short branch lines.

Oh no, that isn't smoke. It's steam, from the steamed trams we're having. MMM, steamed trams!

Man, I asked you for trains on logs and pneumo-trains back when you asked for ideas. Now that the log trains are being covered, we have the pneumatic ones. Did you read my comment, or am I just exgremely lucky?

The mines in Belgium in Limburg used to use fireless engines for shunting duties, 1 still exists however it's not in usable state

Ah goody! I’d been hoping you’d cover this topic at some point

*I NEVER KNEWS* these were a thing - thank you

A little superficial. Would have appreciated if talked about the systematic difference between locomotives that use hot (overheated) water that is kept from boiling by the pressure in the tank and thus take benefit from immense growth in volume when this water gets into steam on the one hand and the locomotives that just use the energy stored in pressurizing a gasious medium (as air or pressurized steam). And by the way, most of the shown locomotives shown still require steam, but are just fireless as they do not carry around the fire with them.

My grandfather owned one of those his brothers and him owned a asphalt plant in the early 40s and they used it to interchange with the big railroad

some of these in germany still operate and theres lots of existing ones in england including multiple at the SKLR

This is brilliant!

I was waiting on these

These are my favorite type os locomomtives. I like these little guys so much.

Excellent!

Thanks for sharing 👍

in Indonesia, the fireless locomotive is at the Semboro sugar factory, unfortunately the locomotive is no longer operating

Many locomotives used in mines here in western Canada used compressed air until they were replaced by electric ones.

It feels weird commenting on a Train of Thought video less than an hour after it’s uploaded as I’m usually in class when they come out, but today I’m doing my leaving certificate and am currently on my break.

In Germany those engines are still in service today! 😃

This video needs some clear statements. Yes their are compressed air engines- no steam involved, just add compressed air to the tank. Open the throttles and compressed air will go to the cylinders and push the pistons. Much more common were fireless steam engines. These ARE steam engines, but their tanks are filled with high temperature, high pressure liquid WATER. When the throttle is opened the pressure in the tank decreases a bit and the high temperature water begins to boil, producing steam that goes to the cylinders and provides power. Fun facts : at the normal sea level pressure of 15 psi water, will boil and turn into steam at 212 F. But water at 430 F in a pressure vessel will boil and turn into steam at 375 psi, more than enough to drive a locomotive. When the water temperature gets down to 354 F the available steam pressure will be about 150 psi, still enough to provide useful power. The limit is when the water runs out OR the temperature gets below 212 F.

That is absolutely fire!

Thank you

Fascinating

Considering that bus brakes are air actuated, they probably wooshed, honked, and whistled a lot!

When I was a kid there was a museum of transportation called "Pate's Museum of Transportation" that actually had one of these next to a customized private rail car I don't know whatever happened to it it disappeared about a year or 2 before the museum closed!!! 🤠👍

I learned something new today.

The boots factory in Nottinghamshire had one to shunt there wagons, I found that it was still intact and is held at a Heritage railway in Nottingham too I went to see it, it’s in a mess but it’s interesting to look at

This is great and more facts about these locos the more you know

I live in the netherlands and there's a museum not far from where I live which has a fireless steamer which is owned by a private entity, really cool!

I'm not sure why you say that compressed air won't work when you show at least 2 compressed air locomotives in the presentation! These were a catalog item for a number of builders including Porter and were typically used in mines.

Took a while but thanks!

A big warehouse near me uses a small shunter that probably runs on compressed air. I have never seen it in action but it is not much more than two axles and some cylindrical tanks.

seems a lot of people are missing the fact that these predominately run on steam and not on compressed air. water has a high latent heat. possibly the highest of all. it stores all the heat pumped into it. they hooked it up to a big boiler, and just started blowing steam into it until the water was the same temperature as in the boiler. unhook, and the thing ran off until the water was too cold to steam effectively, or it ran out... very popular as shunting engines with short trips in one place... compressed air suffers from losing all the heat of compression and requiring external heat from teh surrounds to get full expansion.

OMG, they're so cute!

There are two fireless locos looking unloved at the south end the West Coast Trains yard at Carnforth, Cumbria, which can be glimpsed from trains passing on the West Coast Main Line

I thought I'd seen one of these before! There is one at the Sittingbourne and Kemsley Light Railway in Kent on static display

The compresed air engine are still built and use today for the mining industry

I remember them in Gravesend working out of the Bowater paper mill, they were bright green I recall.

Yeah, when London subway was built, originally there were real steam locomotives but it quickly became obvious that fuming engine in tunnel can choke to death not only itself but also all the passengers and the crew.

Informative videos be like: "Short answer, no" "Long answer, maybe" Throughout the video: yes.

The Toronto Railway Museum has one that ran on compressed air for use in a factory that made flammable products.

I wonder if there ever were attempts to create a steam turbine train. Steam turbine engines were used on ships around the turn of the 20th century so surely the idea had come up. Steam turbines have a continues flow so they don't need pistons or valves to regulate the steam as it just flows from the high pressure of the boiler to the low pressure of the outside. The only big valves involved are to regulate the amount of steam that goes in. Though they do rotate at a very high speed which means you need gearing to slow the RPM but ships managed that just fine and even with the heavy gearing they still had a better power to weight ratio than piston engines.

cool

We have a preserved fireless locomotive in Norway. It’s was given the name “PAAL”.

Props for the Mario Galaxy track at the end!

Intresting…but how did they keep the super heated water hot. Seems to me that in about 15 minutes the water in the tank would cool down and there would be no pressure.. Thus no energy to move the engine

There is an awesome series of videos by Tom Stanton of him creating a compressed air powered engine, it runs into many of the same issues.

The Great Northern railway ran two , ‘teakettles’, as they were nicknamed at the tie treatment plant a Somers, Montana. They have been given to a museum and one was displayed near West Glacier,Montana.

I once helped a guy with taking his steam tractor to a show. it had a water issue at the time so couldnt be fired up so we filled it with air. It was just enough to get it on the trailer and then off and right to its spot inside

Steam Battery locos? being used for sensible applications? maybe those huge Battery Electric prime mover conversions should take some notes...

I wish there was video of these in use today

Humidity could be a problem underground. Every liter of water in the tank will end up condensed on the walls somewhere. But that's a ~sunk~ cost if you already have water ingress problems.

their still some that are used today! I saw one in a vid and that also that's probably their still very simple, easy, and such to work with and use I'm sure their still plenty that are used today but yea are great but not as much as they were as the 20th century but still can see a lot of em in europe

For some reason theres a load of these rusting at Carnforth Steam Town.

There's a load of these at the Carnforth West Coast Railways depot. I'm not sure whether they're waiting restoration though. They look pretty dilapidated.

I wonder if any of these survived into preservation, aside from the ones mentioned to still be in use.

These engines are odd..but very intresting

Neat. Wonder if i can find one in HO scale

Where do you get your music for the videos?

What’s the background music called? It sounds familiar. =_=

Interesting how they're still used today for shunting. They're interesting engines too

Hi: Recomiendo a los turistas que visiten Lloret y la Costa Brava, que visiten en Blanes la Orenstein & Koppel 040 que está expuesta en la Avenida Europa. Era propiedad de SAFA, sociedad anónima de fibras artificiales. Creo que es la única locomotora de vapor acumulado para vía de 1668 mm conservada en España. Best Regards: David.

The first time I heard the phrase 'fireless locomotive' was in a fantasy story about a dragon. The tale was greatly detailed, and I later found out the author had an interest in engineering... I had no idea this was an actual invention! :D

They still use steam. Just no fire. Ideal for gas works etc.

I saw video of one in Germany still running in the past few years. I wonder if it's still there?

You could absolutely run a steam train off my damn blood pressure 😅

_In Mannheim's technical museum there is a locomotive powered by compressed air _*_. , ,_*

I want to look up that specific yellow one with cylinder fins on the engine itself.

Hey #trainofthought can you make a video on caustic soda locomotive?

I wonder about the conversion of some heritage steam locos, which might solve the coal supply problem... (refuel at stations?)

Now do the diesel-pneumatic locomotives, like the V3201!

fireless locomotives can be recognized by having a large vessel. The cylinders are also extra large to get by with low pressure. The chimney and the coal bunker are missing.

The titel and some of the explanation in the video is confusing. The main type of fireless locomotive still requires steam, and a steam engine can run on pressurised air. The fireless locomotives can be divided in two main groups, those which use steam and those which use air. Usually the first group is meant when talking about a fireless locomotive In the fireless steam engine superheated water is held under pressure in a vessel. There is a steam space above the water. By taking steam from this space the pressure in the steam space will drop and more steam will be formed as a result until the pressure is restored. The superheated water in the fireless steam engine expands 1800 times when evaporating into steam, so there is a lot of energy in that water. As temperature of the remaining water will drop as the evaporation takes energy from it the resulting steam pressure will also drop over time, so at a certain point the useable steam pressure will get too low before all the water is used, not unlike a normal steam locomotive when you stop shovelling coal on the fire. This means that not all the water in the barrel can be used before topping up is needed. But this type of fireless locomotive still has a relatively large range compared to the other group, the pneumatic locomotive. And yes, a pneumatic locomotive works with the same system of cylinders and motion gear as a steam engine, the cylinders have ribs to take heat from the surroundings as the air in the cylinder cools down when it expands. For this reason the air source must deliver dried air as otherwise water can condensate and cause water lock in the cylinders. Many small long cylinders hold the pressurised air. But this air under pressure stays in gas form, and this means when half of the air is used, the pressure will have dropped to half in the holding cylinders as well. So they need topping up very regularly, and were mainly used on underground mining railways where a source of steam is not available but pressurised air is as most machinery there works on air. This because air as a power source is safe to use in an environment with explosive gasses such as a coal mine and can be transported long distances trough pipelines unlike steam which would cool down too much. Also steam would create an unbearable humidity in the already hot tunnels and the emitted steam can impair visibility.

Fun fact: an atomic, if built, would still be a steam engine

The Huntington pit at Cannock U.K. had two. They took trucks to the main line. Maybe pug sized? Used until recently ( I my terms of time )

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