The Takeover of Kiev Pechersk Lavra (Pencils & Prayer Ropes) 

Amen.

I'm Greek Catholic, not Orthodox, and I agree 100% with what you say. It's unfortunate that the UOC-MP and Russian Orthodox Church hierarchy don't share your viewpoint as they have taken nationalistic stances. The UOC-MP had propaganda pamphlets advocating for a Russian takeover of the state. In the case of Kyril, he has openly stated that he believes Russian Orthodox soldiers will have their sins forgiven in battle and has built churches overlapping in Alexandria Patriarchate. If Patriarch Tikhon of Moscow is indeed a saint, may intercede for the ROC today, and restore Christ's beatitude to the Church. "Blessed are the peacemakers. for they shall be called sons of God."

@@supercoolbrian I would have to see one of those propaganda pamphlets you described - if you can find one, send it to me. That being said, it is actually a three-way struggle: The UOC-MP, which is canonically recognized by every other Orthodox Christian jurisdiction, rather gracefully and cleverly separated itself from all connections to the Moscow Patriarchate not long after the war started, in hopes that this would prove to the Ukrainian authorities that the UOC supported Ukraine's side, which it does. However, Kirill, to my regret, and to your credit, cannot seem to keep his nationalism out of this issue, and when he speaks about the UOC's troubles publicly, it just irritates the Zelensky Banderites or whatever and gives them fodder to say "See, Moscow is really pulling the UOC's strings!" - despite the fact that Met. Onuphry of the UOC has been begging Moscow to please be silent because every time Moscow speaks, the Ukrainian Orthodox people suffer. The third group is not canonically recognized by about half of the Orthodox world (and really ought not be recognized by anyone, even good Greek Catholics, in my opinion.) - This church structure masquerades publicly as "Orthodox" but seizes parishes in Ukraine with violent force, and it is supported by the government of Ukraine in doing so, to "Get rid of the Russian invader." No matter what happens, the UOC is the loser in the fight. The Russian side is stupid and hypernationalistic and the Ukrainian side is also stupid and hypernationalistic BUT WITH A CAUSE, and... well, there you go. I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church and I live in Moscow, (full disclosure, right?) but I understood the UOC to be basically independent for a long time before the documents were made in 2022 to officially say so. That is point 1. Point 2 is I am a Christian. You are a Christian. Our nation is "the new Nation which is called by THY name (Christ, the Cross), Kontakion of the Holy Cross" - so Russia, Ukraine, Zimbabwe... these nations have nothing in this. One of the biggest mistakes we as Orthodox Christians make is we place the earthly nation before the word "Christian" both in documentation and in real life. So, am I a RUSSIAN Orthodox Christian, or a Russian Orthodox CHRISTIAN? Right? And for you too, as an eastern-rite Catholic, who is your King? I hope he is the same as mine! Theological issues and history aside, Christ is the one thing needful. If we only would take the time to remember this, you know? God be with you!! Thank you for your comment!

@@SeraphimHanischMusic I will save my criticism of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church(UOC-MP), aligned with the Moscow Patriarchate, which currently claims to no longer be affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate, for a second comment. First things first, I think you are wrong about the Orthodox Church of Ukraine which is aligned with the Ecumenical Patriarchate (OCU-EP). First and foremost they are Christians. I’m not Eastern Orthodox so I don’t have a very compelling argument for why I think OCU-EP is canonical and not the UOC-MP. I don’t know whether the switch of jurisdictions in 1686 from Constantinople to Moscow was permanently canonically binding or if it was meant to be temporary. I recognize there is a serious theological disagreement that supersedes the political situation. I recognize people have a right to believe that the Moscow Patriarch is the Patriarch of all Ukraine, but the reverse is then also true about the Ecumenical Patriarch. Unfortunately, there seems to me to be a lot of hypocrisy in this. If it's a problem that Ecumenical Patriarchate granted autocephaly to OCU-EP, then it would seem to logically follow that it was a problem when the Moscow Patriarchate granted autocephaly to OCA(Orthodox Church in America). If it’s a problem that there are overlapping jurisdictions in Ukraine because of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, then it is also a problem that there are now overlapping jurisdictions in Alexandria because of Moscow. I know two rights don’t make a wrong. I don’t have an Eastern Orthodox answer to this question of jurisdiction, since for me the Pope is the answer, but in both the UOC-MP and OCU-EP there is a human right to follow one’s conscience in deciding who is the proper Metropolitan or Patriarch. Most importantly, if it is a problem that the UOC-MP is being denied Kyiv Pesherk Lavra, then it’s certainly a problem that Russia is outlawing, killing, persecuting, and systematically eradicating the OCU-EP in it’s occupied territories of Ukraine. The US think tank, Institute for the Study of War words it as such: “Moscow’s religious persecution campaign seeks to eradicate the Autocephalous (independent) Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), which Moscow views as schismatic despite the decision by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in 2019 granting the Ukrainian Orthodox Church its independence from the Moscow Patriarchate. Russian occupation authorities are likely systematically eliminating OCU churches in occupied Ukraine. ISW’s research found that 34 percent of the reported persecution events targeted the OCU, making it the single most targeted religious group. The high percentage of persecution events aimed at the OCU is not surprising on the one hand because it is the most popular confession in Ukraine. It is surprising on the other hand because the Kremlin has been posturing as the defender of Christianity in general and Eastern Orthodoxy in particular.[20] Witness reports indicate that Russian authorities are seemingly targeting the OCU for its Ukrainianess. The Russians pursued such targeted attacks on the OCU even during the short-lived Russian partial occupation of Kyiv Oblast early in the war, suggesting that this targeting was an intentional component of the Russian invasion from the outset.” Specific to your comment against the OCU-EP when you claim they are seizing Churches. A 2019 Ukrainian law allows individual churches to switch denominations if two-thirds of parishioners vote for the change. This is what’s been happening. The OCU-EP are not seizing church territories as you describe it, but the parishioners of specific Churches are voting to switch church affiliations. This has happened with some UGCC(Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) churches as well where they have voluntarily become OCU-EP. It may seem unfair since there are churches that were previously UOC-MP are becoming OCU-EP, but the reality is most Ukrainian Orthodox Christians chose to switch churches once the OCU-EP was granted autocephaly by the Ecumenical Patriarchate. What people should note about Church property in Ukraine is that it essentially belongs to parishioners, not the Church itself. It's not private property like it is in America. Considering that parishioners preserve the property and that the original ownership is in some cases ancient, this process makes a lot of sense. It’s regulated by the state, but this is out of legal necessity. The reason for this is it's actually impossible to restore churches to their proper ownership. The Russian Orthodox seized a great many Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholic churches while under Stalinism. This was not the Russian Orthodox Church’s fault since Stalinism used them as a pawn, but the fact remains that ownership of churches is very difficult given these past atrocities. The Synod of Lviv that liquidated the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1946 is a good example of this since it explains why today the UOC-MP, the successor of the Russian Orthodox Church in that area, has so many churches. Unfortunately, the UOC-MP doesn’t always look at these atrocities where they acquired other faith’s Churches as negatively as they should, but that’s a topic for my second comment. In regards to the OCU-EP, since Ukraine’s independence, Ukraine has aspired to have its own Church for some time. The success of the former Ukrainian Orthodox Church- Kyiv Patriarchate(UOC-KP) and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) is testimony to this. While most agree that the first of those (under Filaret) was definitely sketchy and not canonical and that the lineage of the 2nd was difficult to deter, most can publicly see that their success as churches indicated that Ukraine wanted an Orthodox Church independent of Moscow. While the OCU- EP is a new Church, it filled the role of this old desire rather easily and clearly when it was granted autocephaly by the most prominent Orthodox figure worldwide. My point is that it's not so much an act of force that churches of the UOC-MP are becoming OCU-EP, but rather a clear reflection of the will of the people(for better or for worse). It’s worth noting that it is common practice among some people in Ukraine to simply go to any available Church in your area without paying attention to affiliation. Therefore, in Ukraine, people attended UOC-MP parishes not by choice. In some cases, people simply didn’t know which Church they were attending. There was a recent legal battle in Ukraine that the UOC-MP won, in which they were allowed to present their churches as simply the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, without referencing their affiliation with Moscow. In the past, this made it very easy to confuse them with the so-called “Kyiv Patriarchate.” Many of these churches are remnants of the Russian Orthodox Church in the USSR and were simply the only churches in villages or communities. In fact, essentially every Church over 30 years old was part of the Russian Orthodox Church during the USSR, and the UOC-MP consequently inherited most of those Churches. People attended the UOC-MP for so long because for a long time, they didn’t have a choice. Now they do. Again, we can disagree with the canonical issues, and we can disagree over the theology, but the right to belong to a particular church is pretty human. The Catholic Catechism refers to it as a freedom of conscience. But where I challenge you is in how you characterize the OCU-EP. It’s possible the OCU-EP have been used by Zelensky in his sometimes excessive and sometimes reasonable crack down on the UOC-MP. However, it seems to me that there has been some justification for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine’s existence since 1686 and that the people of Ukraine freely and faithfully choose this Church. If Moscow and the UOC-MP really cared for the people of Ukraine they would focus their efforts on giving this Church Apostolic Succession(since they claim it lacks it). It is after all very logical that Ukraine should have its own independent Church given its secular government is being invaded by Moscow's secular government. Also, since you mention you live in Moscow, I do send my condolence to the civilians who I recently read were killed in the recent drone strike. While Ukraine has lost many civilians and has the right to defend itself, such retaliations against civilians are not justifiable. This is assuming Ukraine is the perpetrator and its not a false flag like Putin had in the 2nd Chechen War.

@@supercoolbrian Howdy! This is a very thorougly thought out reply and I appreciate that greatly. There are a few themes that are sort of takeaways on this: 1. Bishops often behave badly, at least in the Orthodox Church (I am not a Roman Catholic so I cannot properly address how things are for RC hierarchs, though I usually applaud Archbishop Cordileone in San Francisco and I have a very dubious opinion of Pope Francis - sometimes he seems to go off the Christian rails - but you see, these are opinions of a person who is not in communion with Rome, so it kind of disqualifies me from being any sort of authority. In the Orthodox Church the common saying is "We don't judge those who are outside the Church because they are not in the Church - that is God's business... we keep to what WE are taught in faith that it is the Truth, and in that sense we mind our own business." (something like that). But yes, bishops in our communion often engage in very petty power games. There has been a push-pull like that between the EP and the Moscow Patriarchate for some time, and while I am in the Orthodox Church I am not educated enough to give a "for sure" reason why, but I can say what I observe: The Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Ecumenical Patriarch himself are in a bind. They are based in Istanbul, but are under severe restrictions - they are not allowed to evangelize Muslims, they are very restricted in their ability to do things in Turkey, and there is very little money to support the five thousand or so Orthodox Christians living in the EP lands in Turkey. Therefore, the income for the EP comes from abroad. Many of its churches are Greek "The Greek Orthodox Church" is commonly EP, but there are other exarchates in other parts of the world. The biggest money source for the EP is the United States. Note that Biden is "good friends" with Patriarch Bartholomew. On the Duran we call Mr. Biden "Joe Bidenopolous, Greece's favorite son" as a way to poke fun at this relationship. But since one of the big failings across the Orthodox world (and I think it is a big failing every time this happens...) is that it seems that a lot of our laity and certainly a lot of our clergy and bishops forget that the Church is NOT a national entity. We fool ourselves even in the way we name our jurisdictions "The Russian Orthodox Church..." -- but where is the word that matters? The full name is actually surprising "The Greek Orthodox Christian Church of Antioch and all the East" is the real title of the Antiochian Orthodox Church, but you see the difference? That little word "Christian." I think most of these problems - including the war! would go away if we paid proper and due attention to that word and everything it means. 2. Your comments show that there are many ways to look at history. Your historical record is fairly accurate from what you wrote, but as you kind of noted yourself, it is possible for each side to view event X in its own way. I noted this too when the EP lifted the anathemas on Philaret Denisenko, that the EP can simply take a "new view on history" and do what it wishes, and so can the MP or anyone else. What is funny is that the EP legitimized Denisenko, and the other schismatic church leader - there were TWO schismatic churches in Ukraine - the Kyiv Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, and the EP tried to amalgamate these into one unity under the EP as "The Orthodox Church in Ukraine." BUT!! Philaret Denisenko eventually peeled away from that union as well, unless something has changed since hearing this - For me, this showed the folly in "magically" removing anathemas without the person making repentance for their wrongs, and so whatever Philaret actually DID to get himself in trouble was never resolved - it was just deliberately ignored, and apparently there WERE real things wrong with the man because he didn't step into his role in the new church structure and help it. So there is that. 3. There is one piece of information I believe you have wrong - thought I also know that the Institute of the Study of War promulgated this information: "Most importantly, if it is a problem that the UOC-MP is being denied Kyiv Pesherk Lavra, then it’s certainly a problem that Russia is outlawing, killing, persecuting, and systematically eradicating the OCU-EP in it’s occupied territories of Ukraine. The US think tank, Institute for the Study of War words it as such: “Moscow’s religious persecution campaign seeks to eradicate the Autocephalous (independent) Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), which Moscow views as schismatic despite the decision by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in 2019 granting the Ukrainian Orthodox Church its independence from the Moscow Patriarchate. Russian occupation authorities are likely systematically eliminating OCU churches in occupied Ukraine." Russia is not outlawing the schismatic Church, nor is it involved in any efforts to persecute members of the schismatic Church. It is also not using attacks against civilians and civilian institutions in its war effort. But Ukraine is. What you miss here, is that for the Ukrainian promoting the war, like Zelensky, but more profoundly Podolyak and some others, they are promoting a sort of hyper-nationalism that was championed by Nazi Stephan Bandera, who is a Ukrainian hero these days. The Ukrainian forces began shelling CIVILIAN communities starting in 2014 in Donetsk, Lugansk and so on when those two republics, alarmed at the nationalist setup taking place in Kiev, declared independence from Ukraine. For the Podolyak types, these are not Ukrainians, they have been and still are "Russian swine" that are literally, and in Zelensky's OWN words spoken alongside Biden "subhuman." Remember the Nazi term in Germany "Untermenschen" (sub-human) - Biden stood by and was probably unaware that this had been stated, but it is real for these people. I don't think it is real for all Ukrainians by a longshot, but we cannot hear from Ukrainians anything about dissenting views from the Zelensky - Podolyak regime because Mr. Zelensky outlawed all dissenting media outlets under the excuse that the nation is at war. This is VERY clever - the US probably would be just as drastic if it were in a real war on its own territory. One needs to support the national cause - I get it. But Ukraine's government has a national cause that is basically neo-Nazi in its membership (Azov Brigade) and approach. And they DO think that killing civilians is absolutely fine because they are Russians and therefore subhuman. YOu may or may not know this, but Moscow has been getting attacked for several months - not anything like every day, but ever few days to every few weeks there is a drone attack. The last one was Sunday, July 30. Several drones were sent against Moscow, and one exploded near a skyscraper in Moscow's business center. No one was hurt seriously, but the damage to a building was very evident. These are generally agitation attacks, and I could see people arguing that Moscow is doing this as an orchestrated effort to ramp up national angst against Ukraine and so on. I do not think this is the case, but I admit it is possible. It doesn't square with everything else that has been going on here, though so while I expect the spin to go that way, I don't believe it. So, your ISW information is a venture - even in the text it says "are likely systematically eliminating OCU churches..." key word "likely" - meaning "we are saying this" but in reality they are making it up. The leader of the Canonical church (and this is not as applies to Russian recognition alone, but by the entirety of the canonical Orthodox world from before the war) has begged Moscow to keep quiet because every time Kirill expresses support for the UOC, the Zelensky government starts attacking UOC people as "Russian Sympathizers." One hierarch, Metropolitan Pavel, is in jail and getting ready to be charged with basically sedition - all he ever did was lead services and pray, but he refused to take his monks and vacate the Kiev Caves Lavra when the government tried to seize the property. He is not alone - thousands of Ukrainians - loyal to their country but to the Church more than this (as it should be!) are refusing to let the government have its way. Be aware of propaganda - the US is really invested in this stuff with Ukraine, just as its authorities are trying to jail Trump for saying 2020 was rigged (It was, and this effort proves it more than disproves it in my eyes - you may think differently), but read everything everywhere. A couple great sources: Redacted.inc The Duran my own broadcast on occasion "American in Exile" Alex Christoforou (the Duran) Alexander Mercouris (the Duran) Dr Steven Turley And there are many others - balance them against what you already know and see what happens. I really am glad you gave such a well-thought out comment. Let's keep at it!! God be with you!

There is more I could go in comment - but let's go point by point because you are principally correct in most of your thoughts, but I think your view is affected by the presence of bad information. Good propaganda always works that way - lies mixed with truth. So, I will ask you to do this thing for me: do NOT take MY word for what I say as "This is absolutely certainly true." - I don't think I am repeating propaganda, but I am just a dope writing comments on RU-vid. I am not God and I am not all-knowing - I could be deluded too. After all, I live in the Russian fishbowl and even though I don't pay much attention to its local news sources (they are generally stupid), I still live in the fishbowl and all the attitudes and feelings of the locals soak into me as well, and they doubtless affect my reasoning. See? But that happens for all of us, so this is why we have to really work hard and use our brains to THINK and evaluate everything carefully and critically. God be with you!!

Thank you so much for your kind words! Hope the issue gets resolved!

Perfectly put

All the more reason to NOT be pacifist. How are you gonna defend those who "just want to be left alone?"

Heard the same from multiple sources

@@BibleIllustrated BTW - with April 1 coming up, an "Orthodoxy and Tamagotchi" video would be hilarious.

@user-ct9sj3rh8pThe Russians forced Metropolitan Onufriy to break off from the Moscow Patriarchate so blame the Head Schismatic: Putin.

@user-ct9sj3rh8pf it is “not entirely clear” to you, then you must be Russian. In 2011, after “negotiations” with the Georgian Patriarchate, Patriarch Kirill announced that S. Ossetia and Abkhazia would remain under the Georgian Patriarchate. Why should Georgia have had to negotiate over its own canonical territory? There was no negotiation with the UOC when Patriarch Kirill took over UOC’s Crimean territorries. Unless I missed the news Kirill has still not decided on what he is going to do with the UOC churches and monasteries in the illegally annexed territories in Ukraine. Can you see it now? Putin invades Georgia. Kirill decides whether or not he will claim territory from Georgia. Putin invades Crimea. Kirill takes UOC’s Crimean territory. Putin illegally annexes Ukrainian land, Kirill decides… The Putin-Kirill joint venture sets its sights on the conquest of the whole of Ukraine including the UOC. Metropolitan Onufriy, the good shepherd, flees with his flock from this murderous duo.

@user-ct9sj3rh8pA good shepherd does not murder his own flock.

When you take away all the fluff and distractions it boils down to who has authority to create a new autocephalous church and why. A government cannot step in and claim something new that isn’t canonical while pushing out the only canonical church. Regardless of geopolitics this is what is happening.

The monastery already belonged to the state. It was leased to the Church. And the lease for a part expired. This cannot be compared to what happened in England. The only sort of bad thing is that the state was a little sneaky and did not give the Church a kind reminder that the lease would expire. I don't think they were obliged to do that, though. The lease for the other part was terminated. As expected, the state thinks this was legal and UOC does not. I've seen that both validity of the lease and breach of the lease and/or of other legal considerations were mentioned in the media as potential reasons for termination.

@@redlander55 to give to a non canonical church. The only patriarch that recognizes the newly formed OCU is the EP. He had no right to overstep his jurisdiction. You’re forgetting that little caveat. This is not some Protestant denomination game but a blatant disregard for church canons and history. These Orthodox Christians can’t simply take communion from whoever or wherever they want. That’s the entire point.

@@nel7105 I’m mostly with you, but Alexandria was able to be wrangled into the OCU’s side (which responded in the MP’s worst decision in the debacle: infringing on the African Jurisdiction after excommunicating Alexandria)

@@senorsiro3748 that’s a red herring. The EP didn’t have the jurisdictional authority to grant the OCU authocephaly, plain and simple. He’s not the pope even if he wants to act like it. It hasn’t reached the level of patriarchs being forced to choose sides and for good reason. It’s a literal stalemate. Either you recognize church canons or you don’t. We don’t have a Pope for good reason

They want to steal whatever they can their hands on. Poor citizens of Ukraine is now finding out how genuine their own government was and how corrupted. And much wheeling and dealing with the biggest corrupt Mr usa. Pray for the best. Hope this war ends and everybody will have their say . Much has been done by the zelensky and poroshenko government. People of Ukraine be true, don't close your eyes.

It’s always a tragedy when politicians divide Christ’s flock, especially through war.

A wicked and perverse generation asks for a sign. Look down at all the RED innocent blood that is pooling at the feet of the Muscovian invaders.

You'd be the first!

As a so-called "Uniate" I detest this with my whole heart.

It's a bit of a grey area, I think. I believe they didn't declare a schism officially in in order to show some understanding of the exceptionally difficult position UOC is right now.

@@BibleIllustratedThe so called “canonical Autonomous” status of the UOC under the Moscow Patriarchate looks to have been voided. The Russian Orthodox just annexed its fifth eparchy from the UOC: Berdyansk. The UOC is indeed in a difficult position, lying supine without even a whimper of protest or pain as the MP eats it alive. What do you call a “Mother” who devours her own children? A cannibal nihilist. A Putinist.

The Moscow Patriarchate stated that decrees of His Grace Metropolitan Ephraim of the Berdyansk eparchy of the UOC “are considered null and void” after their uncanonical annexation of the diocese. This kind of annexation and usurpation of authority is how the Russian Orthodox will snuff out the existence of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church unless they are stopped.

They are currently in an "exiled" position similar to ROCOR in the 20th century.

@@Calciu_83 Self-exile more like, while the Moscow Patriarchate is actively working to swallow the Ukrainian Orthodox Church whole. If only Constantinople would recognize the autocephaly of the UOC!

They are best described as neo-nazis, or more accurately neo-Banderites, or followers of a twisted recreation of the supremacist ideology of Stepan Bander and the UPA. Their influence shouldn't be overstated, but yes, they are disproportionately represented in the military and security services in particular, as compared to the general population.

I 100% blame zelensky as he is the one responsible for persecuting the UOC, for at least multiple years now. The issue of the schismatics really started with the maidan coup where the ultra-nationalist president poroshenko artificially created an unrecognized Orthodox Church to catalyze an independent Ukrainian National awakening. The primate of the OCU is not even a priest, the Ukrainian intelligence arm (SBU) routinely harassed the UOC and their believers. The UOC are systemically persecuted and suffering at the hands of the Ukrainian government.

@@thegloriouslion5200 The UOC is currently and tragically tied to the Moscow Patriarchate who blessed the SMO War Invasion of Ukraine, blessed the killing of Ukrainians in the name of denazification, demilitarization, desatanization 🙄… The UOC claims that it became independent from the MP in May 2022, but the MP still claims jurisdiction over the UOC. Not one of the Local Churches supports the UOC’s claim of de facto autocephaly. Not a single one. Voices within the MP have called the UOC’s separation an “illegal schism.” If the Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church takes up this call “officially” then the UOC will be branded schismatics. How many supporters will the UOC lose if they are labeled “schismatic” by the MP? But the MP will not exercise this option yet because it believes that its joint-venture with the little tsar pretender still provides the MP with the best opportunity to just absorb the whole of the UOC with a Muscovian military victory over Ukraine. What makes anyone think that Patriarch Killir and Putin would tolerate a rebellious Metropolitan Onufriy if the Muscovians secure a victory? What makes anyone believe that Met. Onufriry is not already marked for death by the forces of Muscovy for daring to rise up on behalf of the Ukrainian people? For now it suits the interests of the MP more to raise protest against Zelensky, the OCU, Phanar, “Globalists”, and even Jews to deflect the blame for its crimes against Ukraine and its Orthodox people. The UOC has no support for its claims of de facto autocephaly from any of the Local Churches. Neither has the UOC even declared its autocephaly from MP. The UOC does not fight the MP when the MP seizes its territories in Ukraine (cf. Crimean UOC). UOC has not broken communion with the MP. UOC has within its ranks supporters for the Muscovian invasion. All of this makes the UOC look like collaborators with the MP. Look at this situation from outside of the UOC, from the perspective of the majority of the population of Ukraine. The UOC stands alone in its claim of a full break from the MP. With no other Orthodox Church backing this claim, it looks like the UOC is posturing before the people, buying time… The UOC must take stronger actions against the MP if it wants to shift public opinion into its favor. The MP has a weak hand to play if Constantinople makes the bold move to recognize the autocephaly of the UOC or if the UOC-OCU get their act together and merge with Metropolitan Onufriy as the head of this new Church. Slava Ukraini! Ukrainians for Ukrainians!

​@@orthoodoxchristianfirst2964 I understand you very well. The problem is also that UOC might risk canonicity if it declares true autocephaly. As you said, not a single church recognizes its "independence", as the UOC declared last year. Who will remain in communion with the UOC, if it really comes to the point of it being called "schismatic"? They would face the same problem as tge OCU, maybe even worse, if not even the Ecumenical Patriarchate would recognize the autocephaly. It's all a mess. But at the end of the day, who is responsible for all the bad the UOC has to endure? Sure, people will automatically look at Zelensky. But we would've a completely different situation if this pseudo-christian unholy crusade of Russia would've never started.

@@georgianpatriot9328It took the Moscow Patriarchate 150 years after breaking off from Constantinople in 1448 for its autocephaly to be accepted. “A journey of 1000 miles begins with one step.” The UOC should take that first step by declaring autocephaly and then trusting in God, move forward. By moving forward they will see who their real friends are: the Churches Who Will Remain In Communion With Them. At these beginning steps the frightened Local Churches don’t even have to cry “Autocephaly” but just have to retain unbroken communion. What’s the worse that can happen? The poor UOC has already experienced attempted murder from the MP, its bad-Mother Church. Phanar and its allies have already betrayed the UOC…Both the MP and Phanar are acting as schismatics! How can they even dare to judge others? Time to give the Local Churches of goodwill and newly kindled courage a chance to step out of the dark shadows of Moscow and Constantinople and show true support- by maintaining communion with an autocephalous UOC. The UOC, if it is indeed free of Moscow must declare its autocephaly or else it looks like a MP trojan horse in Kyiv.

@@thegloriouslion5200Though Zelensky is not an Orthodox Christian, years ago I read that his children were baptized in the UOC and that the UOC (years ago) thought they might have had Zelensky as a sympathizer within the Ukrainian government because of this. But that was years ago. The spiritual ground has shifted violently since then and the UOC is losing members, both clergy and laity to the OCU - more and more so as the war progresses. The UOC is still identified as “Russian” by the majority of Ukrainian citizenry. Whatever personal sympathies Zelensky has or had with the UOC do not matter now because he is the secular President of his country and must answer to the Ukrainian people - the majority of whom have turned against the UOC. Archimandrite Abraham, formerly of the UOC now the “new” head of the Kyiv Pechersk Monastery appointed by the OCU, said this about the UOC that he left behind: “They are still trying to convince us that the only reason for these events is the attitude of the state. However, it should be honestly recognized that our hitherto Abbot and clergyman in the person of the Metropolitan and the Synod step by step formed the sad situation in which we found ourselves. Instead of dialogue - closedness and threats. Instead of realizing the need to truthfully, sincerely and definitively break the subordination to Moscow, which is waging war against us - vague and half-hearted decisions and statements that everyone interprets as they wish. Instead of searching for ways to unite the Orthodox and reconcile, it is incitement to hostility and confrontation.” I sympathize with this Archimandrite, and I agree with his points that the UOC has not done enough to distance itself from the MP, that the UOC wrongly assumes that its downfall in Ukraine can be fixed via state and legal means, and that the UOC has closed itself from dialogue with not just the OCU, but from Ukrainian Orthodox who have left the UOC.

I was at a PreSanctified Liturgy and the Priest was defending the Ukrainian government in this situation very strongly; he was not Ukrainian or under the EP so I was a little perplexed

@@johnbonnewitz-coffey4666 I attempted to attend an interfaith prayer service for the victims of the war at my Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral a couple of weeks ago. I made it 20 minutes into the hour of propaganda before I had to leave. ru-vid.com7Fsq7bw_Cl4?feature=share

Absolutely

Yes, he is a layman

@@Calciu_83 not even. he is shismatic

@@juliusbakker4415 my point exactly

So if Metropolitan Onufriy takes over as leader of the OCU then the OCU would be canonical?

No one recognize it

May God protect Ukraine and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church! I'm praying for you all in Ukraine!

@@isaacasunciongallardo9781 they haven't declared autocephaly yet, so they don't need special recognizing from other churches.

@Коля Красоткин РПZ не равно Христос

@user-ct9sj3rh8pDenying Putin and his “Mir” is not denying Christ unless Putin is your messiah.

lol what

Ah yes. The radical solution! 😂

Y'know thank you for saying this. We all wanted to, but didn't have the courage.

ክርስቶስ ጌታ ተኀስቷል ዛሬ!

beasts don,t have churches but stables

@The Inquirer the pope cant just start a rite you dont understand the papacy it isnt a bishop of bishops he quells disagreements not a God like figure

@The Inquirer Constantinople had jurisdiction over kiev metropolitan but temporarily gave control to Moscow as to deal with the separation of Constantinople's jurisdiction not as a sort of gift to Moscow

@The Inquirer no i didnt he speaks infallibly on morals, of which he speak as and WITH the church, the only infallible statement since vatican one was on the assumption a contention of the church for centuries the pope cant just make stuff up

@The Inquirer i study ecclesiology and theology the papacy is historical and in scripture whereas the patriarchate system was a system to help the organization of the church i found this difficult but i hope you look into this with the vision of neutral truth

@The Inquirer there is no consequences what happens in a loose sea of bishops people split and we can see that happening

Services in all orthodox churches - in Russia or other country are held in Church Slavonic, not in any national language! It's not a spoken language and it origins from IX century from Moravia and monks Kirill and Mefody.

@@user-zu4fd7nw4y not entirely true, that's just Russian crap you're speaking. Ukrainian s have often used Ukrainian in the choir and responses etc. Kirill has no place in Ukraine he should evacuate his monks and onufriy he is their bishop, they respond to him.

@@Luke_19951 He is right. Ukrainian was never used in the churches until very recently. As far as I know, it was the Ukrainian Catholics who first used Ukrainian in place of Church Slavonic, and that only happened in the 50s.

@@josephmoya5098 time for the Russian Patriarchate to shut up shop and go back to Russia or they should go and buy their own churches. The OCU is the official church of Ukraine now, the rest were dissolved. Onufriy is dancing to the tune of Russia, but he also knows If he was to leave Kirill would defrock him or probably just kill him.

@@josephmoya5098 You are correct

Give it back to the Greek Catholics that Catherine the Great took it from.

You have a serious brain defect if you think the majority of UOC stands with MP please give me the list of millions of dollars they have sent to Russian military, or the food and medical needs they donated to Russian Army. You cant because you're a liar

I don't know if it's true. :) And Metropolitan Onuphry and his Church have broken ties with Moscow long after he supposedly got that passport.

How has Metropolitan Onufriy broken ties with the Moscow Patriarchate? Has the UOC released their revised Church Statutes to reflect this fact? The supporters of the UOC need some official UOC documents to define and certify this independence to counter the accusations by the OCU and the Ukrainian government that the break did not actually happen.

UPDATE: Metropolitan Onufriy responded to the accusations, explaining that he received Russian citizenship because he studied in the Moscow Spiritual Academy, one of the three Christian education institutions that were permitted during the atheistic USSR after the Ukrainian Odesa Spiritual Academy rejected him as a student. In 1971, he became a monk of the St. Trinity-Sergiy Lavra in Moscow, where he was registered and lived until 1988 and inherited Russian citizenship when the USSR fell apart. The Russian citizenship was extended by default, but nobody cared about that in the period of “good brotherly relations” between Ukraine and Russia, and neither did he. He wanted to live until the end of his life in the Moscow monastery because of the godly people he encountered there, “and citizenship open up the opportunity for me to realize that dream,” but the bad relations between Russia and Ukraine, the dissolution of the CIS, and war of Russia against Ukraine killed that dream. “Now I do not consider myself any other citizen except for my native land - Ukraine… I do not have a Russian passport,” Onufriy added. euromaidanpress.com/2023/04/08/moscow-backed-ukrainian-orthodox-church-leader-20-other-hierarchs-are-russian-citizens-media-claims-church-denies/

@@BibleIllustrated So if the UOC has unilaterally broken communion with the Moscow Patriarchate (who in the opinion of many commenters here is the guarantor of the UOC’s canonicity since it was an “Autonomous” Church “under”the Moscow Patriarchate) does this act of insubordination make the UOC uncanonical? Commenters throw around the word “schism” to describe the “canonical” UOC’s standing before the MP. Can it be argued that the MP is granting a grace period, some time for the UOC to repent of its schism before calling the UOC uncanonical? Or is there a more straightforward reason for the MP’s seeming forbearance - such as the MP expects a Russian military victory which will subdue the rebellious UOC and force it back into the MP fold? Or Metropolitan Onufriy might somehow lose his job (e.g. out the window) and have to replaced with a MP-friendly? Does the MP expect to kill the UOC back into communion?

Bishops and priests of UOC have had common liturgies with bishops and priests of Polish, Romanian OC and even Moldovian metropolia of MP since UOC declared disassociating from ROC in May 2022. And it didn’t confuse anyone.

"The lavra belongs to the Soviet Union, not the monks. So they have every right to do what they what." Hopefully, this helps show you how ridiculous your position is. Just because they can does not mean it's right. Kicking out praying monks from their homes is not okay, no matter how drunk on ukropaganda you are.

@@TsaristCossack the law is the law. There are different religious or former religious buildings that belong to the state elsewhere in the world, too. And you can do what you want with your property. Do not confuse legal ownership with propaganda.

The new ukranian church is lgbtq satanic

The monastery was leased to the Church. And the lease for a part expired earlier this year. The lease for the other part was terminated. As expected, the state thinks this was legal and UOC does not. I've seen that both validity of the lease and breach of the lease and/or other laws were mentioned in the media as potential reasons for termination.

Yup

"Звон пливьот пливьот" у виконанні кількох жіночок після молебну, це "pro-russian song"? Ну, дуже натягнуто

The Masonic Broadchurch conspirators from the CIA have been determined to force Glasnost Ecumenism and sexual revolution on Ukraine and Russia since 1991, but got lazy under Bill Clinton who had them focused elsewhere. When they realized the kind of tactics Operation Gladio used to bring down the Vatican could not work on Orthodoxy, they have gradually adopted a divide and conquer strategy that are also useful for their secular political objectives. I don’t trust ANY of our secular politicians, not mine, yours or Russia’s. The wheel of the cycle of regimes is turning over and the Church is caught in the mutual crossfire of worthless scoundrels.

@@user-ch8ig2cb8q Усе інше не то нормально?

@@sergiistarosyla аа, пам'ятаю ще молитву о спасєнії росії от пьянства, яку СБУ знайшла на 167 сторінці якоїсь старої заниканої книжки. Сильний доказ антиукраїнськості!

I am a Ukrainian also, and member of the canonical church and what you worte there is just such a propaganda. Do you watch Ukrainian state news all the time? Something tells me you are from the "patriotic" camp of ukrainians.

Honestly, kirill is the pope wannabe here.

@Коля Красоткин Yes, Kirill is going into Theodoros’ Aexandrian patriarchate and establishing his own churches. He also calls Moscow “third Rome” and views Russia as the center of Orthodoxy.

@user-ct9sj3rh8pPatriarch Killir is the arch-schismatic. He blessed the murder of his former flock in Ukraine. He breaks communion left and right in an effort to fracture the Church. He invades the Patriarchate of Alexandria and seizes UOC oblasts.

@@derekward3512 Kirill is not the one who believes he can invade the canonical territory of another patriarch and recognize people with invalid ordinations as clergy. Bartholomew believes himself a pope, despite ruling over a couple thousand people in Turkey.

First of all, thank you for keeping your comment civil. I will go through your points one by one: - It really does not matter which city (Kyiv or Moscow) is older, but under which jurisdiction one falls under. Serbian Patriarchate is only technically in Peć, even if it's located in Belgrade, and even in Peć is not where Serbs first historically accepted Christianity. - If you believe that the clergy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate are any less political than the ones of the Moscow Patriarchate, you are sadly very mistaken (their very existence in Ukraine is a very political move); - As for harboring spies and hurting their flock, I can understand the resentment and these people should properly be brought to a trial (through, I am uncertain of fairness of such trials, considering what the Ukrainian government is doing to the canonical Church); - Same goes for support of the invasion, and I know that Metropolitan Onuphry has been denouncing it from day one and was the reason he broke communion with the Moscow Patriarchate; - Monks and priests owning expensive things is a problem that exists in literally every Orthodox country (Serbia as well), I do not see how is that anywhere relevant to anything); - Far more Churches do not recognize the Orthodox Church in Ukraine and for a very good reason. Again, absolutely no reason to give any precedence to Kyiv just because people were baptized there first. In Orthodox Pentarchy, Jerusalem does not come first, but Rome, despite Jerusalem having a far greater significance than Rome (in fact, Jerusalem barely became a Patriarchate in its own right); - "Bowing to no other authority than the Lord's" is 1) very Protestant thinking because it goes against the established canonical rules of the Orthodox Church 2) you are still bowing to American politics.

The new jusrisdiction was formed in 2019 out of people who were already in schism. There are only 2 canonical clergymen in the new UA church and both of them switched from the canonical UA church. EP can recognise whoever he wants, it does not make schismatic a cannonical.

The seizure of the territory by the EP was hundreds of years too late to be canonical (they had 30 years to backtrack on granting jurisdiction to Moscow, not 400). There was also no effort to repair the ordinations that took place back when the EP too admitted they are schismatics, meaning the overwhelming majority of their clergy have still never been ordained under proper Apostolic succession.

The main argument I hear is that the Russian Orthodox Church / the Moscow Patriarchate has to recognize it in order for it to be canonical, because Ukraine / the Kyiv/Kiev Patriarchate is under their canonical jurisdiction. It's not under Constantinople.

I think it is canonical. At least to a high degree. Constantinople showed that UA is under it, not Moscow. The 30 years period mentioned by some does not apply in this situation, it is taken out of context. Or at least it can surely be argued as such. I don't know what to say about the validity of the OCU bishops, there might be a problem there. There is also your argument of existing recognition. The main point, however, concerning EP and OCU is that EP tried to heal a schism and actually it was the only one that could do that. UOC opposed. For this, EP is to be praised and UOC is not to be praised and recent events showed again that UOC was wrong, as they kinda ended up breaking communion with Moscow.

The dude in constantinople is not pope

The view is canonically indefensible, as Serhii Dumenko isn't even validly ordained. His 'ordination' was carried out by 'bishops' who, at the time it occurred, were recognized as deposed by BOTH Moscow and Constantinople.

Reminder that OCU is schismatic according to Bulgarian Patriarch, Georgian Patriarch, Romanian Patriarch, Antiochian Patriarch, Jerusalem Patriarch, Serbian Patriarch, Albanian Church, Macedonian Church, Polish Church, Estonian Church, and many more

Ukrainian Orthodox Church is UOC. So-called OCU is political schematics semi-religious organization, created by former president Poroshenko in 2018.

@@user-ch8ig2cb8q So you believe that their Holy Mysteries/Body and Blood of Christ are of no good-no grace?

​@@orthoodoxchristianfirst2964correct!

Unsupported EP cope. History proves the independence of the Moscow Patriarchate

Yeah right. The bishop in Istanbul can keep dreaming about his papacy. It won’t happen.

not until you read the history of the sergeist

If this is truly the case, then why does the Ecumenical Patriarch recognize and commemorate Patriarch Kyrill? Why would it have taken this many centuries for this "error" to be discovered?

Constantinople patriarch is cia

You dropped this: 🇺🇦 🏳️‍🌈 🏳️‍⚧️ “☦️”.

OCU are schismatic psychopaths

No u