The TF2 Class Wars Tier List 

I will say Pyro vs Pyro is always the best match up because the insane amount of particles makes servers stop working properly

I started to get very concerned when I saw that every class was weak to Engineer

"A pyro can beat a soldier, but 16 pyros will never beat 16 soldiers" has some deep philosophical implications

i can say with full confidence the hardest i have ever laughed in TF2 was any time i was in a class wars matchup of medic vs. medic on either A+D or CTF. the server basically becomes 32 decapitated chickens screaming medic and threatening to saw through your bones

"You know what this team needs? Five more snipers." - The Sniper

Engineer is proof that teamwork is the most overpowered aspect of Team Fortress 2, who knew.

Throughout all of the video everyone's weakness is listed as engi. It's terrifying the slow realization that one single class rules them all...

Engineer is almost impossible to beat on defense by anyone except maybe Demoman. It's ridiculous when there's already 6 sentries scattered around your spawn by the time the gate opens.

Facing attack engie in class warfare that isn’t an team of demo and heavy is 90% the definition of slow and painful. It like a horror game where the horror is slowly creeping up.

Defense Engineer is simultaneously the most fun and most annoying to play against

I love it when when attack engineers use modified trench warfare to slowly secure defensive positions *using* defensive positions.

I remember my first time going against attack Medic, and my god did I underestimate them. As long as they know how the ubersaw works, it's an endless horde of invincible zombies

40:31 I imagine part of the reason defenseive medic plays better than attacking medic is becuase in order to capture objectives you cannot be ubered.

One note about Attacking Medic: If the team coordinates right, they can basically just use stock ubers like a fake Bonk and ignore the entire enemy team, save for engi. If they do it right, they can win games as fast as scout teams.

defense engineer plays like a tower defense game, playing against it can sometimes be really hype due to the severity of the challenge (if morale somehow remains high) the best strategy for attack spy is to try to turn the map friendly and sneak a back cap

Slowly watching the video get closer to engineer and seeing all the power classes have losing matchups is very suspenseful.

25:04 I love the box spy trying to blend in before getting his shit rocked by the funny boxing gloves

"Because the Gibus engineer who is just an absolute chad is just going around upgrading everything"... Jit got called out for the first time ever 😂

Sniper V Sniper on Sawmill turned into a Submachine-Piss-Fest. It was a ton of fun to beat people with the SMG.

Oh, we used to have class wars in the early days of tf2. They called them "the Medic update", "the Pyro update, "a Heavy update", etc.

One time I got into a casual Cp_Well game, and everybody on my team were Snipers... because they were doing Class Wars, in a casual game, and let me just say, Casual Class Wars is WAY funnier than Normal Class Wars Edit: HOLY SHIT I GOT A TOP COMMENT, what the actual fuck this never happens, thanks guys :) Oh and by the way, when I say Casual Class wars are much funnier than normal class wars, I mean I threw up the Dr. Pepper I had because I was laughing so hard, it was awesome... Or was that when I was watching Octo's video about Spy Reloading the same night? I dunno it doesn't matter.

I think the versatility of Demoman having the most different and distinct subclass in the game is underrated. Demo is more or less the only class that can have a balance of power classes to hold the line and pick classes that are completely different to deal with counters to stock Demo, which when played optimally has a lot of potential.

Props to Great Blue for not murdering the Kazotsky Kick Heavy at the start

I won class wars, as attacking spy, against defense engineers, once. How? I had me and a few friends take cloak and dagger and just sit in their base, invisible, the entire freaking match, until the last minute or so. The engineers decided to camp our spawn, except like, 2. We managed to kill the 2, sap their teleporters, and then take both points. It was hype.

The best game of class wars I ever had was heavy vs engineer, with engineer on offense. Ended up backcapping as one engineer with 17 seconds left in the round and was literally worshipped as a god by the rest of the server. Edit: The server I was on was the old skiver server that had a plug-in to prevent engineer from placing anything more than mini-sentries.

I remember being in a game where medic was attacking and engineer was defending and the medics actually managed to push through and win through sheer force of uber

Engineer slowly being revealed to be the most overpowered class throughout the video is terrifying I’ve never feared a giddy smile until the “Engineer Incident”

>strong against every class >practically infinite resources >everybody can help each other >reliable damage, can kill even a heavy in a couple of seconds Engineer on class wars is genuinely the biggest threat to the world

Before watching video: Engineer on Defense is busted After watching video: yeah i guessed about right

Nothing compares to demo vs demo. The teams typically split into subclasses: regular demo, hybridknight, and full demoknight (and the occasional sticky booty). Holding the point as a full demoknight with booties, CnT, and half zatoichi is such a _RUSH._ Only other thing that comes close is soldier vs soldier. When the push comes and both teams are blasting their banners, shit gets _REAL._

I’ve seen a team of defending engineers lose ONCE. It was dustbowls third stage against a team of heavies, who had to gradually spam their way through the lines of sentries until they got to the final point, and even then it took the better part of 20 minutes to do so.

Engineer on attack often falls into the pitfall of “we captured the first point, now we must hold this area at all costs” and starts playing defense instead of pushing to last.

one thing to mention about defending sniper: use the machina. just have sixteen sniper shooting the machina down a corridor and nothing'S getting through there.

One thing I would like to add(and said it again) it dumb that most class warfare use rtd. I get the intended purpose was to give an advantage of the team that had a class disadvantage, but the problem is that since it rng, it possible for the winning to get good rtd, so many times it just adding insult to injury.

A question arises: what would a Highlander team vs. Single Class/Class War styled team tier list look like? Like, how would the nine classes going up against nine Engineers do?

Engineer stares into your soul as he appears in every other class’s “weak against” list

"I guess when u become the funny hardhat man,u just gain the ability to cooperate " - Great Blue

A lot of little details went into making this video (editing standpoint) and it's neat to see Not gonna make a massive list on it all or anything, but I appreciate it all the same

25:09 is probably the single funniest clip in this entire video

My go-to Spy strat is to hide in one spot with the CnD and spam voicelines. In all seriousness, I feel like attacking spies, if highly coordinated, could pull off a win if, while most of them went gun spy and distracted the enemy, a few went L’Etranger+YER+CnD, flanked the enemy, and silently chainstabbed their way from behind.

I can't wait for you to rank every possible class combination you could get on class wars

when people say RTD exists to beat stalemates, that could be a joke, or at least reference to when tf2 dev said crits are to break stalemates lol. "rtd is fair and balanced" ;)

Attack Engineer is basically the closest thing you can get to WWI trench warfare in TF2

I used to play on a class wars server where they realized how broken Engi was, so instead they installed a plugin that made it so that whenever a team spawned as engi it would force medieval mode Which was very funny when the inevitable Defense engi vs Attack demo came up

“If you loose as engineer it’s a skill difference” RTD: gives 3 heavies power play guess I’m just unskilled

I’ve been frequenting this server for a little while now so it was really cool to see some familiar names show up in the killfeed. Hope I get to see you their sometime!

Medics are my favorites of all time: If you're attacking, if you manage to coordinate well the enemy team will be so confused and surprised of the huge horde of ubered medics that you might actually rush them. And as being defensive, Kritzkrieg+Syringe combo makes you feel like you are rambo by putting surprisingly high DPS. And since a lot of times people underestimate a team full of medics, some teamwork can actually make the dream work.

Class Wars is a gamemode that I spend a lot of time recently and it's just a lot of fun. I must say, even tho defence heavies are insane, I've once played against them on the Attack Scout side, and somehow we even won. That was some really nice coordination of mad milks and probably the first time dustbowl was helpful with it's tight corridors. Never had so much fun killing heavies

Human brain ultimately works on hierarchies, so a tier list is a very fitting thing for taking in not very complex information

My fright grew massively when it got to heavy and there was still no one strong against engie Edit: it’s worse than I imagined, even engineer is weak against engineer

Theoretically if all 12 snipers were bots he would automatically be the best or 2nd best class in the class wars Attacking against them means jack shit if 12 botted snipers can basically delete the entire enemy team in seconds

>"Defense Demo wins 99% of the time" >Not Dominant

30:43 That nobody would be crazy enough to think "oh it's fun to have 3-4 of this one class, what if the entire team was the class?"

"Enemies are constantly going to be milked" -Great Blue 2020

One thing I might add is that if you go into class wars with a pre made team you can do a really funny thing with projectile classes like soldier, medic, and engineer with pomson, which is coordinated firing squads. I've done that, me and some friends lined up and staggered our shots so that by the time the last in the row fired the first had already fully reloaded so it was just a constant barrage of cowmangler shots, it was fun, class wars allows for a surprisingly high amount of coordination, because it doesn't matter how bad the matchup is (unless it's spy) a well coordinated team led by somebody who understands actual tactics will always be the victor. I've seen engineers on defense crumble because scouts just smash through the first defense and then cap last before they can even get set up

Class wars is just a well made depiction of irl war

25:02 legit clever move by that spy

I remember once in casual on Frontier we all decided to go heavy. There was literally nothing red could do against us, it was hilarious

As someone who did attacking medics in class wars, they actually are more brutal than you'd think if any amount of coordination is applied. Half going uber/kritz and the other half going syringe/crossbow/ubersaw and then switching off for the other 50% turns into a massive pushing tide that can catch the other team completely off guard. Defending engies are still bull, but all the other classes besides pyros with airblast capable flamethrowers really need to beware an army of crazy german men.

Spy beats engie if you have a good team, but since you don’t really get great players often, and if you do they rarely play together it sucks. Class wars as engie is op is because it’s a class made to work with others so a engie doing well himself is doing well for his team.

Tbh if there's something I can do about this gamemode,this is what I will do: _Ambassador in this gamemode is revert back to the pre-nerf Jungle Inferno state _Short Circuit cannot get metals from dispenser or payload cart while active _Reduced Wrangler shiled resistance from x3 to x2,when sentry is unwrangled the shield is gone _RTD can only be used when the number players on both teams are 7 or more

Gotta say a no to surrendering as attacking spy, sneaky backcaps are WAY too fun to not try for on A/D Defo surrender on payload tho, no chance dude

Turns out Engineer really took to his motto of “use more gun” and used 16 Engineers worth of gun to dominate everything

You'd never expect it in a tier list video but the buildup to the engineer reveal with the matchups list, always present but never directly commented on, is some amazing storytelling.

I remember playing in a class wars server back in the day that restricted engineers to mini sentries, if I recall correctly it was skiver's class wars server but I have no clue if that server is still around since its been years

I had a situation with being spawncamped by pyros and we were snipers. Since we did have limited options we returned to the Napoleontic war and just using machinas we made a line of snipers and one of ours was sacrificing himself to open the spawn doors, so we could make some progress. It worked ... somehow. We lost, but we had a lot of fun.

I was in constant fear for the first 5 classes, because literally all of them were weak against engineer, _even when he was attacking_

The fact that you say you should surrender when you and your entire team are Frenchmen is irony at it's finest.

I will always rembember that time where I was playing class wars on dustbowl, it was the 3rd phase, the matchup was Engineers (blu team) vs Pyros (red team), I was on the red team and the blu team capped the 1st point and they were getting dangerously near to the 2nd point because they built a whole nest on the 1st point, I then used the !rtd command, and I got a Powerplay which allowed me to whipe the whole nest, long story short, we (red team) won, with a total of *SEVEN* powerplays in the same round. Truly astounding.

The fact that the engineer portrait is smug makes it 10x better

Seeing you hover over the dancing heavy and not taking the shot was heartwarming

12:07 Hey, wait a minute. How is there a dispenser there when your entire team is nothing but soldiers?

Maybe adding 2fort Any 3 and 5 Control Point map and Halloween maps into Class Wars could spice up Class wars. Maybe making RTD 120s wait or having some servers where it is disabled or customized to put a balance which otherwise wouldn't be there.

There's something funny just watching all the classes have losing match ups to Engineer, before even getting to the Engineer class.

i just noticed something.... You designed the class icons SUPER well, hell, its amazing to look at! Attack icons are most obviously blue, but notice how they always look right? they do! every attack icon looks right. Same for defense, obviously red, but they always look LEFT! what about for even? Well Great Blue did an amazing thing! they have a more soft coloring, not blue, or red! And get this... THEY LOOK FORWARD. Im probably going too far into this but GOD DAMMIT i would be sad if graphic design wasn't my passion! Oh and uh... the rest of the video is good. yeah.

theres a weird discrepancy where on the defending engineer part it says they have a two star advantage but on the attacking engineer its says they have a 3 star disadvantage to defending engineer

i just watched the introduction and i can already tell you did your research, especially from the perspective of someone who follows the FGC, love that you take more than just matchups into consideration and the way you divided the classes

I've honestly had more luck playing attack spy than defense spy.

Medic VS Engineer is actually a lot less unfair than you'd think, I was medic and won against engies on defence because we could just keep shooting and healing over and over

Great Blue uploading a tier list video always gets me excited. Or any video for that matter. They’re always so well produced!

The greatest weapon of a spy is their stealth. While Class Wars does announce classes and reveals the spies' intentions, that doesn't meant stealth can't be used. Dustbowl Stage 2: Spy Vs Scout I was on a team of spies against a group of scouts, attacking in this situation. I realized very quickly that this was going to be a hard match. Spies lacked speed and firepower of a scout, and the pure fact was that I could not headshot with a pistol for my life. However, I had a different tool in my kit. The Cloak and Dagger. Compared to stock and the Dead Ringer, this device is usually seen as lesser. However, I found it very useful in situations where I don't want to be seen for a long time. Equipping it, I began to move my way through the battlefield. My allies were getting slaughtered, but I didn't care about that yet. I needed to get into position anyways, and an early capture could make further engagement troublesome. Eventually, I made my way to a spot close to the second point. Standing on the point would have been too obvious. Any scout could jump on it and accidently bump into me. I instead went into a corner usually ignored. With both my allies and my enemy focused on the first point, I was able to sit their patiently. Waiting. Watching. Then it began. Overconfidence. The blight of any army began to infect my enemies. Scouts began taunting and relaxing next to the secondary point. While it did make my job harder, it meant that my allies would had to deal with less of them. The Scouts began to do parkour, jumping on fences and going into an idle taunt. All while secretly being watched by me... and this other spy who disguised themselves, but the Scouts eventually killed him. Finally, the first point was grabbed. I waited a moment, took my chance, moved to the second point, uncloaked, shot at a scout that was in an elevated position, and was able to capture the point before Scouts could kill me. Thanks to the sacrifice of my allies and my own patience, we were able to win the game against the Scouts... Only to be immediately f---ed as the final stage was Spy vs Pyro, with us attacking as Spies. That ended... very poorly.

this video is SO well put together, the graphics, the transitions, the DETAIL, good stuff!

Medic is a force to be reckoned with on attack if they get momentum. Really hard to place on a tier list, I think the placement is accurate.

While i do understand that engineer is a powerhouse, i feel like you're overhyping him a bit much in offense. Short circuit spam will literally only save you if the locker has a direct sightline to spawn exit to hurt people spawn camping, 'cause other than that, even those small delays of running to it to recharge wont help them get out if the defensive class is too oppressive. Also, offensive engineer will at best control the 1st point but the second they have to go through a choke it's over. They're too slow to move and that's their weakness, they tend to require much more time than given. In regards to the classes that can precisely keep them in check: Any of the main 4 powerclasses unless it's some dumb stuff like stage 1 dustbowl and even then, heavies will still have a field day. At the end, offensive engineer is as good as the set up time he gets. If he gets none, he can easily be kept contained, which is why i believe heavy to be the best class (other than defensive engine) to deal with them. They don't care about losing their projectiles, they have a lot of HP and will shred buildings (and engies), plus they can heal themselves as well. In regards to defense engie: he's broken yes, but saying that the best pick against him is soldier is like...what about the short circuit literally deleting their primary??? If anything heavy's the one with the best chance to pierce through (like you said), at that point it comes down to skill. If engies split up to protect all points they're fucked. If they focus defense on last then yes, nothing beats that. On neutral is like i said. It comes down to how well they can be contained and some classes can absolutely do that. ...i really don't understand why you seem fixated on implying that soldier is the one with the highest chance when both him and demo suffer the same issue. Heavy is the one with that chance, the class that doesn't care about projectile deletion

This gamemode is basically a microcosm of why casual needs a class cap, but it’s literally the entire point of the game.

I played class wars for a few hours today, and there were about 8 people in the lobby discussing this video. Ultimately, it was decided that this video is a pretty great guide for players. I hadn't actually watched it yet so I didn't give my thoughts lol

FaN is probably the best scattergun for defense because of it’s knockback!

You forgot to censor the spray at 50:24 lol

I've developed a fun little habit anytime I have to be against engies on defense; I start playing (JP) Bad Future Wacky Workbench, from Sonic CD. It cheers me up enough through the very stacked odds. (not taking RTD into effect of course) This is very effective when the local rotation server is full and I'm stuck on the 24/7 Dustbowl server where we ended up wiping the first 2 rounds then get stuck on the 3rd area for 18 minutes because no one on the team wants to surrender.

Played in a casual game with class wars on fronteer. It was epic

40:15 Well yes, defense is easier than an offense! Scout is literally the only exception there, being worse in defense.

i remember getting a Sniper (Defense) vs Engineer (Offense) on Dustbowl last; everyone thought it was game over. What no one expected, is that the snipers hold last for over 30 minutes straight and win.

I really like class wars even tho some rounds are straight unfair with some matchups but still like playing because its hilarious sometimes and fun i love when its arena Just shit when you want to change weapons in arena

Halfway in, and I'm noticing two trends: spy tends to end up in disadvantage a lot, and engy seems to end up in advantage a lot... I think I know who the top and bottom tiers are.

one note about attacking spy, i have been in a few games where we won while getting spawncamped to shit because someone somehow backcapped and nobody on the defending team noticed in time

When you think about it, fighting an engie is like fighting a stationary amalgamation of a heavy, soldier, medic, and pyro if you include the short circuit.

I want to give spy the benefit of the doubt, he actually does stand an *even* chance against engineer for only one good reason: his sappers. Specifically the red tape recorder is insanely well on class wars because it halts the growth of buildings and makes them much easier to destroy. As well as his revolver can usually 2-3 shot engineers at close range. It’s an uphill battle for both, if the spy acknowledges he can’t rely on backstabs or headshots, he can do well against (at least) defense engineers. Weapons I suggest, be the enforcer (surprisingly), stock revolver, your eternal reward, stock/spycicle, and the red tape recorder (normal sappers are useful too).

it is very funny seeing the attack engineer clip on the last point in dustbowl vs defense pyro because, from my experience, a good team of dragon's fury pyros can completely prevent engineers from even pushing past the first control point

Heavy actually does surprisingly well against Defending Engineer, at least on the first and second stages of Dusbowl. Third stage not so much, but mostly because that whole segment is designed to be defense-favored. You’re not gonna win that without a few Powerplays / Mercs Die Twice. Short Circuit spam doesn’t do much because of Heavy’s large health pool, and miniguns do not have (as much?) damage drop-off against buildings, so it’s pretty easy for one or two heavies to take down a level 3 sentry that isn’t being actively repaired. Plus there’s lots of corners/ledges in the first two stages to abuse and shoot around. Specifically, in Stage 2 of Dustbowl, there’s a stack of tires just before the final point where a Heavy can stand on top of it and the sentries will try to shoot you, but they can’t shoot over the ledge....but you can still shoot them. I always tell the team about that and we mow down all the sentries in the corner pretty easily.

An older class wars server that doesn’t exist anymore had an engineer nerf in place that restricted them to mini sentries. It made the balance MUCH closer.