How would you change up the list?? CORRECTION: During Wilt's segment, I said that no else averaged over 37... THATS NOT TRUE. MJ did in 86-87. No one has EXCEEDED Wilt's average as Rookie with a minimum of 50 games,, but someone has averaged 37. Sorry for the mistake. Carry on!
I’d add Donovan Mitchell carmelo anthony and grant hill on this list they were all immediate impactful players who also had great stats to start their careers
Just like game publishers, if there’s no reason to do better in order to be filthy rich, they won’t do it. As ESPN hit its stride they became less experimental with shows and topics. Staying with the safe money makers
I'm trying to figure out what the hell the debate is, Yo to say LeBron is ahead of Jordan as a NBA Player you are literally disrespecting Mike. There's no debate between those 2, Jordan Jabbar & Russell the only 3 Players in NBA History with atleast 5 MVPs AND 5 Championships an these 3 are on most people's Mt Rushmore that should be in of itself enough wherewithal to further look at this media driven phony goat debate, it's silly because winning and accolades are the 2 main categories in Sports, Floyd Mayweather losing most fights but have people call him the greatest wouldn't be accepted, Tom Brady losing most of his superbowls an running around calling himself a goat wouldn't be accepted because he has more stats than everyone else, same with Babe Ruth same with Wayne Gretzky etc etc it's about winning and accolades, LeBron James has media agents on various networks pushing this out anyone with a ounce of common sense can see it's an agenda and an argument without context, why? Michael Jordan played 11½ seasons in Chicago in this time frame this is what SEPERATES him from lebron 2 finals MVPs 2 titles 1 MVP 9 Scoring Titles 3 Steals Titles 4 All Defensive 1st Teams and a DPOY Award, if a player had this resume he'd be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer, LeBron James is witty enough to constantly have the obvious names on TV either 1.Disrespect Jordan 2.Downplay every era an make this era seem difficult when it's the weakest and easiest 3.STATS STATS STATS. LeBron James whole argument as the greatest of All-Time is stats, it's very sad how winning holds no weight, accolades rarely talked about, I played ball, my 2 teen sons played ball no coach on a damn AAU level will stand on stats as being the most pertinent because it is not even the top 2, it's always been winning and accolades but for some reason when lebron comes an needs 10 future Hall of Fame teammates an still has more losses than wins now we have to stick to stats? No. Jordan 30 PPG #1 All-time, scoring record means nothing Kareem made 1 3 Pointer an scored 38,000 check Karl Malone Charles Barkley Patrick Ewing resume had Jordan never played Malone would be top 10 -12 on most people's list easy, Barkley a champion, Ewing 4-5 Finals, Jordan presence alone once he started winning titles stopped every star of his era. He beat his 92 Olympic buddies LeBron teamed up with his after getting the bronze metal ironically he loses there too, that's why Kobe had to come save the day in 08, like Skip Bayless say the chosen one became the frozen one, (don't care who likes Skip, he was always right about LeBron an how he's fake woke) but according to the fans of this guy he should have atleast 8 championships he has no era in which he dominated. Jerry West 27/6/7 Lebron 27/7/7 both losing finals record nobody calls West a goat an my God his jumper is so much better than King Flop, King Flop shoots 50% from the field when most of his shots are 1-3 feet from the damn rim, give me a break. Wilt owns the stat book he's hardly mentioned in a goat debate, it's media driven with no context attached outside of stats, show the numbers show the years an that's it, 1 damn scoring title, no defensive accolades, 1 assist title which is funny since according to his fans he's allegedly a pass 1st guy, I mean he's doing the same thing year after year dribble dribble dribble dribble drive/kick out/flop/cry but pile the numbers up an pass everyone else despite playing damn near 5-6 more seasons than other Legends we shift from winning and accolades to a statically non contextual narrative. Unbelievable! Oscar Robertson played in a era where the MVP award went to 2 players 9 times an Robertson has a more cleaner complete game than LeBron an he's not in a goat debate. It's a joke guys! Michael Jordan 11½ seasons that's his resume until someone tops this in that time frame there's no debate. Teach the youth the truth! Shalom 💪🏾
It's not hard to do actually, NBA media actually knows so little about basketball in general that it allows NBA YT to capitalize on audiences that aren't just interested in top end talks
Honorable mention Carmelo Anthony. Nuggets improved like 30 wins and he was the best scorer on that playoff team, also won Rookie of the month every month
I feel like people are gonna complain that these are all players from the 90s and earlier but I think it’s important to recognize that the league wasn’t nearly as big on drafting high schoolers and 1-and-done prospects as they are today so naturally players had the advantage of being more league-ready from the moment they were drafted. They were much more developed out of college, hence the fact that rookie seasons back then were across the board more impressive than they are today
@@Mirror_of_the_Soul00i think Stronger is provable as players on average have more muscle mass (atleast most) compared to thier size than previous eras
This is exactly why I don't understand why people say players today are so much better than the past after looking over things the last couple of years I understand why some past players had crazy rookie years they had time to develop in college and a lot of them weren't 1 and done it makes me wonder maybe guys should stay a little longer in college
@@universalplayz7496more muscle doesn't equal stronger. The type of training you go through to get hypertrophy doesn't necessarily make your overall strength grow. You have probably seen some blue collar/farmer dude out lifting some jacked gym rat at least once.
@@RafitoOoOthats a good point but the reality is that players nowadays have better training methods and technology to keep their body in top physical shape. Also there is more knowledge and a better establishment of fundamentals for the game. The rise of the 3 pointer and analytics prove this. Therefore its safe to say modern players are more skilled, stronger, faster, etc. However this also proves that greatness should be measured by relativity to era and what players accomplished in their careers because players like bill russell shouldnt be held at fault for not having that priviledge
He said Playoffs did not count in factoring his list . Cause Magic would be eliminated cause his aid to team was very little overall cause they won before his arrival .
@bananaman5668 I didn't say Magic did not deserve to be on list & while I am not or was not a fan of Lakers his years there He was what helped Lakers get over hump . I was fan of 76ers .
Because he was a playoff choker compared to his regular season stats. If you go by regular season alone, he is by far the Goat, but all of his stats just halved in the post season, making his numbers not so impressive compared to other greats, while also constantly losing to his biggest rival Bill Russell
@@phillipcummings3518 Nope because younger people understood why players and media back then was criticizing him for, also the drop out in every playoffs and being outplayed bu others center multiple times even when he had superteams, anyway too much playoff flaws
Walt: "Hello Mr Chamberlain, i am Walt Bellamy" Wilt: "Hello Walter, you will not get a shot off in the first half" Then proceeded to block ALL his first 9 shots Wilt, if you ever cared, you'd be the goat hands down
Wilt is far from even been top 5, his stats went down tremendously in the playoffs, he lost too many finals, and he played a league of 8-10 teams where the majority of them had to go to other professions in order to provide for their families, this was not nearly a competitive league as it is today, so please stop with this Wilt GOAT nonsense.
@@rankarat it just went down tremendously in playoffs because the majority of his playoff games were during his Lakers days, where he anyways had a low PPG. Being in the same conference as the Celtics as a warrior, he didn't play much playoff games as a warrior due to consistently being beaten by the Celtics before the finals.
Not to mention had alot of steals per season for a big man, almost causing 6 turnovers a game, as a high scorer also. To take a team from 21 wins to 56 wins is crazy.
Elvin Hayes rookie season was phenomenal 28 points, 17 rebounds a game and leading the league in scoring and 6th in rebounding playing center And respect to Walt Bellamy who was even more dominant than Hayes in his rookie season!!!
I learned something cool from this vid Elvin Hayes was allowed to wear just a simple ( E ) on his Jersey way back then That's pretty cool. I wanted to see Shaq Just wear (Shaq) on his jersey. Or Magic do the same.
I love the frequency that youre putting out amazing, well researched content with. youre always providing a nice historic context for all of us younger people out here! Respect!
I think Magic deserved more than just an honorable mention. If we're talking about the whole season, being a rookie and the finals MVP is something no one else did in this list
@@zer0freed0mhe didn't deserve that finals MVP, Kareem played way better in the series. Also his numbers outside of the finals weren't great at all. Many of these rookies could have performed better in those finals, but since 90% of them go 1st overall they don't get to be in a good team.
@@rogelioatempa1115 Nuggets went from 17-65 to 43-39 and made the playoffs in Melo's rookie year, and he was the leading scorer. He had better stats than LeFlop damn near across the board...while LeFlop missed the playoffs in the weak East. You didn't think LeMedia could let their "Chosen One" lose ROTY, did you?
Can't believe Wes Unseld won MVP as a rookie. They also gave him the 78 FMVP over Big E. Voters loved that guy. Maybe b/c he was a 6'7 C(it was fun watching Barkley rebound among trees so maybe he had that effect on them) and those outlet passes maybe reminded them of Russell's game
I was a Seattle SuperSonics fan. Unseld had no business winning that Finals MVP. Neither Elvin Hayes. He was a playoff choke artist. Bobby Dandridge should've won 1978 Finals MVP
@@mongoslade277 big e had a weak game 7 but he had a monster game 6 and overall the best stats for the series but the argument for dandrich is strong too
@@HailKingCeezer Okay!! Didn't realize that. You're right. All I remember when the Big E was doing his dance at the final buzzer with his warm-ups on and The Human Eraser having a monster game & 0-14. They announced that Dandridge was the MVP then after the commercial break they gave the trophy to Wes Unseld. They both deserved it more than him
@@mongoslade277 agreed. elvin had the numbers but fouled out in game 7 and was a miserable prick. dandridge was the quiet mvp. but no one can tell me damn 9 ppg is an mvp
Well, I'm 60 years too late for Wilt. But just In time for Victor. Hope the kid delivers, at the very least, stay healthy. Just survive the summer league at least.
Wilt is the real GOAT. I hate people diminishing his accomplishments "because he played against plumbers", if that was true then we would have other guys doing what he did, but no one ever replicated a glimpse of the things he did in the court. Not to mention he probably had tons of triple doubles with blocks but the league didn't track it back then.
Carmelo Anthony helped the Denver Nuggets to the playoffs in the 2003-2004 season, but it was very disappointing that he didn't win the Rookie of the Year award. Carmelo should have won 2004 Rookie of the Year award, not LeBron.
That’s a good list Jonny but I don’t know how someone can make a claim that MJ rookie season was a better rookie than David Robinson. The admiral improved the Spurs by 35 wins in comparison to their previous season while averaging 24, 12, 3.9Blk… That shouldn’t be a discussion
I agree, not to mention 1.7 steals a game. Caused just about about 6 turnovers a game as a rookie plus was a high scorer. And made a team go from 21 wins to 56. That's insane.
Because David Robinson was 3 years removed from his rookie season, where if he played his actual rookie season they definatly wouldnt have won 35 more games, They added Sean Elliot, and another Top draft pick in the in between years that really helped out.
I agree with you. Dr J as a small forward averaged 27.3 ppg and 17.3 rebounds as a rookie with the Virginia Squires. / Connie Hawkins Averaged 26.8 ppg and13.5 rbpg for thePittsburgh Pipers. / Spencer Haywood averaged 30 ppg and 19.5 rpg for the Denver Rockets. All 3 had outstanding rookie campaigns.
Awesome video. Would love to see your list of the best NBA seasons. As in the actual seasons as whole themselves. I would be interested in seeing what kind of criteria you would come up with to determine something like this.
Faster pace, or minutes, if Wilt's stats were inflated, why wasn't anybody else, getting 37 points and 27 rebounds, at the same time during that time. Oscar was close on points, but not on rebounds. Russell might have been close on rebounds, but not even in the ballpark on points. That is the only two other players, as far as I know. Yes, he played the most minutes, but Russell was the only other player close there, also. Why should Wilt, or anybody else, be shorted because they have the stamina to be productive for an entire game, game after game? I'm talking Rookie season.
Meanwhile greats of today need load management. I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying playing 48 minutes a game 82 games would still be beyond impressive of it was done today.
For Wilt it's more the overall skill level of the league at the time, or lack thereof, that diminishes the impact of the numbers. Getting 20 seems easy now, but it wouldn't be for most of these guys. dribbling techniques, team defenses were not on point in this era. Well there are exceptions Baylor, Robertson and some others but overall 60s numbers have to be weighted down when compared to even the 80s, let alone the current era.
@@alexandrefaure4576 As far as dribbling, back then they actually called traveling and carrying the ball, if the officials even thought the players had done either, which they let everything go, for the most part, today. That gives the offense quite an advantage over the defense. There may be a little more athleticism today, but that was not as lacking as it may appear in some highlights. I don't see it quite like some, probably younger than I am, see it. I watched a lot on NBA games from the mid 60s to into the 70s, on TV. I am a firm believer that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle, when it comes to two, possibly valid, though different opinions. Most people can be a little biased, for whatever reason, and I am slightly, but admit it.
Hakeem deserves an honorable mention. His rookie season gets overlooked, I suspect partly because the ROY winner that year was MJ. Rockets improved by 19 wins and made the playoffs. Hakeem had splits of 20.6p/11.9r/1.4a/1.2s/2.7b on 54%fg/61%ft, made all defense 2nd team, ROY runner up, 3 rookie of the months (tied with Jordan).
Wilt Chamberlain gotta be on top I already know 🤓 averaged 40 points his first 7 years If the golden age of basketball had the benefits of todays social media coverage we will all know who the real goat is 🏀
Luka started his NBA career at 19 years old Elvin Hayes 23 Walt Bellamy 22 Tim Duncan 21 Shaquille O'Neal 20 David Robinson 24 Michael Jordan 21 Larry Bird 23 Oscar Robertson 22 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 22 Wilt Chamberlain 23 Luka also only averaged 32 minutes per game his rookie season Elvin Hayes 45 Walt Bellamy 42 Tim Duncan 39 Shaquille O'Neal 37 David Robinson 36 Michael Jordan 38 Larry Bird 36 Oscar Robertson 42 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 43 Wilt Chamberlain 46 Had Luka been older as a rookie and played as many minutes as these guys, he would've made the list for sure
Kareem's Bucks was part of the Western Conference during his time with the team and didn't compete as an Eastern Conference team until the 1980/81 season.
How TF did I screw that up?! I think I meant that no one else has exceeded Wilt's average, but instead I just told a lie. lol. I'll post a correction in the pinned comment. Thanks for pointing it out!
The 1960's nba was so shocked by Wilts dominance they made up an unofficial rule for wilt and not for the rest of the players in Wilts era... Referees ignored the pounding that Wilt suffered from competing teams to the point that Wilt seriously considered retiring from the nba after one season and going back to the Harlem Globetrotters.... He didnt but he put on fifty pounds of muscle to try and get through the next few years of nba seasons and he used his fade-away, finger-roll much more prolifically and in one season scored the ultimate season in basketball history... averaged 50.4 points, 25.7 rebounds and 2.4 assists in 80 games, he also played 48.5 minutes-per-game and even the eight minutes he missed was according to evidence a wrong decision by the referee.... and he never fouled out in his career...scored a 100 point game....lost against the championship Boston Celtics by the bounce of a ball....thats without taking into consideration that he was able to literally take the ball out of Bill Russell’s hands for steals and he was never credited for one block throughout his career... when he and Bill Russell were considered the greatest blocking centers in their era....
In fairness to the Celtics in 1978-79, they had a huge roster turnover, only returned 6 players from the previous season, they fired their coach after 14 games and instead of hiring another coach, player Dave Cowens coached the team. The Celtics hired Bill Fitch in 1979-80, a HoF coach who was named one of the top 10 coaches of all time during the NBA's 50th anniversary celebration. That was a pretty significant addition too.
Hakeem's rookie season 20.6ppg, 11.9rpg, 2.7bpg The Rockets record that year 48-34 19 more wins than the season before and led them to the finals in his 2nd season.
I like your list considering the criteria you use...while magic and Russell didn't have spectacular rookie regular season its important to be mindful they both were champions in their rookie season!!!
Magic being the only rookie ever to win finals MVP. But his scoring numbers weren't as great as Birds was because Kareem was the goto for scoring. The Lakers won that first year off of the Showtime offence which was driven by Magic and that's why he would of made my top 10.
Wilt's numbers are ridiculous and a lot of people underrate it because of the era in which he played in. Wilt also played 48 plus minutes in his career. Wilt was playing the whole game and then over time minutes. Wilt has as many rebounds or more then a lot of Hall of Famers. Bill Russell also has a rebound total that is ridiculous. Kareem's rebound numbers are crazy. You can call the rebound totals apart of there time and that is still impressive. The amount of threes Curry makes in this era is also impressive. People need to pay respect to all eras!!!
Been waiting for this video…!!! & shoutout to the BIG-O…!!! He was before my time but I’ve come to understand he’s Definitely one of the most underrated Hall of Famers of all time & could Easily be in the GOAT Conversation…!!!
Honorable mentions were good! It's tough for any highschool-to-NBA player to have the kind of incredible rookie year compared to guys who matured for 3-4 more years in college.
There’s great players, great stats, great players with great stats and then there is Wilt. I challenge anyone in the comment section to try and put up those stats against the local 8th grade team and see if you can do it for 50+ games. Insane.
Another great video Jonny. Really glad you had Oscar Robertson in your video and giving an honorable mention to Elgin Baylor. These two guys don't get enough respect. People seem to forget that Kareem didn't win an NBA title until after Oscar came to Milwaukee. Also, the Minneapolis Lakers were a dead franchise and on the verge of folding when Elgin Baylor brought new life into the team and took them to the Finals before losing to Boston. Also, Baylor refused to play in a road game in Charleston, West Virginia, after the hotel the team booked denied lodging to the team's three black players.
Great video Johnny! I argue that Magic should have been in the top 10 since his the only one of the bunch that won a Finals Mvp as a rookie. And for that alone I think is reasonable. I know Kareem carried the season but Magic was there 2nd best.
Though you made a compelling argument for Elvin Hayes, I'd still put Wes Unseld over him. Can't really complain about anything else - tbh, I'm surprised LeBron didn't make the top 10, but when put against those who made it, it makes sense. Great content as always!
Duncan needs to be far higher. He was 1st team All-NBA and 2nd team All-Defence as a rookie. This is a guy who didn’t even start playing ball until he was 14 years of age, and was given the keys of the team his first day in practice
ADMIRAL WAS BEST CENTER IN NBA EASY TO HAVE BETTER DEFENSIVE WINSHARES NEAR GOAT CENTER. DUNCAN SHOULD NOT BE ON LIST BECAUSE WES UNSELD WON MVP LIKE WILT ALSO BECAUSE LUIS SCOLA IS BETTER THAN DUNCAN
Robinson helped Duncan tremendously, and helped Duncan not get doubled and tripled like Robinson always had to face before Duncan. You have to remember that they were a 62 win team with Robinson in 95, then they only won 20 games in 96 because Robinson only played 6 games that season. So Robinson played a huge part in Duncan's instant success in 97.
Great analyses of these men. Memories of each of them. Elvin Hayes, in my mind, was always ready to shoot first and look later for a teammate--DAYS later; Bells established himself quickly as a dominant force (until he met Wilt); Tim Duncan was like a Porsche among a group of Prius; we all waited anxiously for The Admiral to finish his commitment to the U.S. Navy; the first sight of MJ: "Did that guy really jump that far?"; Larry Bird's arrival was so anticipated after his battle with Magic in the NCAA finals; Oscar was a role model of determination and power; EVERYONE in NYC was waiting for Lew Alcindor to show his moves; and the best laugh I've had in years was Wilt's comment upon meeting Walt Bellamy: "You won't score for the first half"--and then he shut him down. And then at the start of the 2nd half: "You can score now, Walter."
Most of these players entered the NBA after 3 or 4 years in college. I wonder how good lebron rookie season. Would have been if he had to play at least 3 years in college.
Lol. It does. One of the best things for a RU-vid channel, is when people jump in and comment early, so naturally, I give the "first" people a Heart every time. haha
Donovan Mitchell Grant hill Vince Carter and Carmelo Anthony deserved honourable mentions. Donovan and Melo essentially made their teams playoff contenders(I know jazz made it in 2017 with Hayward but he left and it’s uncertain how well Rudy would have done at that time without a scorer like Mitchell. Also Mitchell and Grant posted some interesting averages in their respective Rookie seasons alone and set a few record breaking events for both themselves as players and for their franchise.
yea good call on grant hill for sure. 20pts a game, 6.4 rebs, 5 assists, and close to 2 steals.. co rookie of the year, and the leading vote getter for the all star game.
Alonzo Mourning also had a great rookie season. And Zo's team went to the playoffs and won a playoff series (and shot the game winning shot against the Celts), unlike Shaq's team who didn't make the playoffs in 1993.
@@bigbird7838 Zo's numbers are comparable to Shaq in their rookie seasons. The big difference is that Zo's team made the playoffs and won a playoff series. Zo also took on two all time great Centers in the playoff series in Parish and Ewing.
@@kadarbraxton4717 Zo did not take a step back against the Knicks in the semi-finals of 1993 playoffs. Zo's and Pat's numbers are comparable but the Knicks were just too playoff savvy veteran team.
He is a big Iverson critic, that is obvious from the history of his content, Iverson and the 96 draft came in the league at a weird time, it was very hard for them to truly have "incredible" seasons, as they came in a heavily defensive era which was the era that had evolved to neutralize a Jordan type iso ball dominant player, and didnt get the Jordan soft rules that gave them fouls just for giving the refs an eye signal, the Sixers record even improved during that year. I would also say his impact was bigger than given credit for, because there was probably automatic tension, being that the year before, the Sixers must have already been a pretty trash azz team, as they got 2 1st round picks in a row, but the player in the previous year probably thought he was the franchise player, but got the Patriots Drew Bledsoe treatment with Brady lol, so that team wasnt going to mesh anyways, and the east was pretty beast at that time for 2 rookies vying for the "franchise player" spot, they werent even concentrated on truly winning. I think Shaq's rookie season is somewhat overrated as he literally pressured the Magic organization to also put Penny Hardaway on that team, so he needed to move the game in his favor to get that "amazing season" Johnny wants to bring up.
If Shaq didn’t gain all the weight, he may not have been the eventual offensive juggernaut, but he would’ve been a better overall player. His defense would’ve been at least above average in LA and I think maybe he would’ve had a slightly longer dominance. If he would’ve kept his Orlando body, he would’ve been a complete player and arguably higher up on a lot of lists on all time greats.
Sorry for the slightly off topic question, but when jordan came up, i thought of the 84 draft class, which also made me think of the 96 and 03 classes as well. Just wondering if there has been a draft class comparable to those three since.
Here is my top 7 off the top of my head and without looking at any stats. 1. Wilt 2. Kareem 3. MJ 4. David Robinson 5. Hakeem 6. Bird 7. Magic Edit: dang, I am terrible for overlooking Shaq and Oscar, yuck. Also, I shouldn’t have Hakeem after looking at his advanced metrics. Robinson was incredible and in my opinion, he’s the most underrated player ever. Great video.
We’re are the aba guys? If you’re not going to include none of them then at make an aba list. It’s ashamed not to have David Thomson, Dr J, or George Gervin on this list!
Starting to wonder where Wemby’s gonna be on this list when you do a new one. His team didn’t make a big win jump, but good lord he is putting up numbers and transforming their defense.
I know that this is NBA, but Spencer Haywood’s rookie year in the ABA was epic. At 20 years old he averaged 19 rebounds and 30 points per game. He won Rookie of the Year and MVP. His first full season in the NBA He averaged just under 13 rebounds and 26 points a game. He single handedly disrupted the somewhat archaic system of college to Pro leagues for basketball players. This offense kept him out of the Hall of Fame for much longer than it should have. He was also married to the future Mrs. David Bowie. Truly one of the most interesting players ever roam the hardwoods.
Jordan was fun to watch as a rookie, but the Bulls were 10th in the Eastern Conference before MJ and 8th during Jordan's rookie year. Jordan brought more fans but his team did not win. Jordan forced a lot of shots, would not pass when he should have, and made silly turnovers. MJ definitely evolved as a player which was great to watch, but MJ did not become a winner until Pippen AND Coach Jackson arrived. The Bird quote was nice, but Bird was being polite. Bird was still besting Jordan into the late 80s.
so if jordan utilized his team more when he didn't have pippen, he magically makes a 30 win team a 40 win team and they magically beat a superteam like celtics? Is that correct?
My auto generated guy on 2k is a shout, a 1 year euro stache guy drafted 8th 2nd year into the vancouver ravens creation. After his year in Europe came as the onl7 main edition and got 4th worst team in the leauge to a chip in his 1st season. Put up 20 12 5 1 1 for the season, all nba 2nd team, put up 28 15 8 1.5 1.5 to get the fmvp
