Hey peeps, recommended you follow a few people and channels in the video! Here they are: twitter.com/braceyourselfok twitter.com/RaveofRavendale twitter.com/GreyAlien And indie game content creators: ru-vid.com/show-UC8nZUXCwCTffxthKLtOp6ng ru-vid.com ru-vid.com ru-vid.com
I'm making an open-world roguelike with limited time on runs so you uncover and explore the world each time until you beat it. Happy that you confirmed that it can sell well. I got a question won't players think that time constraint ruins the game? I think it encourages active gameplay and exploration rather then farming for hours and grinding enemys.
100000000%. I think before people even think about this stuff they should finish and launch a game. There's so much you learn just by going through the process.
Good points here. However, I also feel like it's very important to build the type of game that you would actually play. You can't just chase what's hot or seems to make the most money. The hardest part of game development is actually completing the game. I think it becomes infinitely more difficult to complete a game if it's not the type of game that you, the developer, would actually play.
I think you're half way there. You need to create games you like WITHIN the hot genres. That is, unless you're not doing this to make a living. A really really common mistake people make when starting ANY business (not just video games) is trying to sell an idea THEY personally think is good; they don't do the research to see what the market wants. That is a guaranteed path to failure unless you get really really lucky. Again, this only applies if you're trying to make money doing this. If it's a hobby it doesn't matter at all.
@@byteprimer4049 Yeah, I said I ALSO feel. I agree with him. Do your research, but don't base your decision solely on the numbers. I just meant if card games are hot at the moment, but you don't personally like cards games and never play card games ..then it's probably not a good idea to attempt making a card game. In addition, how good of a card game could someone who does not like card games possibly make? You can do all of the research you want, but in the end, it's partially a crapshoot. What's hot today may not be hot when you finish your game a year from now.
So I'm in the middle on this. I agree that generally making a game in a genre you're familiar with is a good idea...however there's a lot to be gained by deciding to tackle a genre you've never played. But you e got to do it right. You've got to talk to fans of that genre and do your research...and you've got to enjoy it enough to stay motivated. I know for me personally I like making genres I don't neccisarily play because it gives me a fresh outlook. And making those genres has actually led me into playing a bit
It's also very hard to critic your own game if it's not a game you would play. If your game is bad, how do you tell if it's because you don't like that type of game or if it's actually bad ? How do you tweak and balance your game if you don't even enjoy it.
Just wanted to say that I'm an indie film-maker who watches your videos every morning before I dive into editing a project, and your words really speak volumes on every level in the creative field. Thanks for posting videos almost every day during the quarantine. It's been uplifting, motivating, and great to hear your perspective on the different topics of game development that can be applied to many creative fields. You make it simple and relatable enough that anyone in any field can learn something.
Yea, great points made here. Making your games "replayable" is a big one. The less you can get the player to respond with the thought of "If I played this same game that this youtuber is playing, my experience would be exactly the same" the better. A great game can cause the player to feel like the experience which a game offers feel tailored to them, like they feel in control of the limited tools given to them. The more you can make the game relate to the player's experience, rather than making the player conform to the developer's experience, the better. Allow your game to be personal to the player in various gameplay/mechanics (personally choosing names, choosing abilities, choosing narratives, choosing the wheres, whens, hows, and whats of your game). I think this is why games like Minecraft did so well.
I think there's also risk in trying to get into a "hot" genre (like deckbuilders or rogulikes right now), because there will be a ton of competition, and you really need to make a superb product to get noticed (an "ok" deckbuilder is probably not going to cut it). Also, I feel a lot of gamers (like myself) are not into the "you can play this forever if you want to" type games *at all*. I would take a well made hand-crafted consumable experience over that any day, even if it was only 2 hours long (no offence to anyone that likes or makes replayable games, of course, people are just different!). I think finding a niche genre that people would play if there just were decent modern games in it can also be a great strategy. The potential playerbase might be smaller, but if you're a small team, it could very well be financially viable. And you could even build a stronger community/fanbase that way, since you're catering to the specific preferences of a smaller group.
7:08 deck building games 8:08 procedural or roguelite 10:15 tactics 13:24 city-building/ crafting games Is there any recent hit from these genres? I only noticed deck-building tactis hit with Arkknights from mobile games scene.
I can`t remenber any by name but ive seen some pop up more then once recently. Point is its not about big hits. Big hits are rarer, now more so then before since a lot of first comers got spotlights in a less competitive setting. It may become even rarer (indie wise) but we may have hit a plateau already (the more stuff out there and tried before the harder it gets but more devs and riskier takes also come so it kinda levels). A game being profitable and more viable don`t need to be the next hollow knight. Sure we all want to hit gold like that, but theres a big gap between hits and being viable.
I agree with your points about consumable games, I've been watching Resident Evil streams this past week and I have no intention of ever playing those games. But I also think there are other things to take into account. For one: I don't think I would play resident evil in any case, even if I didn't watch all that content on stream. For many of those games that I watch and don't play, I think I wouldn't have played it anyways, like I was never in the audience for that game. Another thing I believe, as a player, is that consumable games create a demand for more games, in a way. I like RPGs, and when I finish playing through one, I will probably start looking on the internet for similar games to play next. The relative lack of replayability I believe is an encouragement to try new games in the same genre, which can benefit the genre as a whole. By comparison, for non-consumable games (fighting games in my case, maybe not a good example because it has a multiplayer element, but it is non-consumable), I find I'm actively stopping myself from trying other games because I don't want to stop playing my current favourites and I can only play so many games at a time, and so I'm never really in the market for a new game (though I'm still guilty of purchasing games I know I won't have the time to really play, but I really think I should stop doing that).
I'm just the opposite on RE. I don't want to watch people play because I don't want to spoil the story for when I play the game myself. I love playing horror survival games.
I am glad you're thinking about these things now. Looking at your game and using my data the tags on Philophobia are in the bottom 18 or lower worst selling (and also most saturated) tags on all of steam. The video of random game X the big RU-vidr plays is also getting most of its views because that audience is there to see Jack or Mark; they want the reactions and personality. For many it isn't even about the game at all. Combine this with highly saturated bottom of the barrel genres and you end up with not much interest or sales. It's not an insult. I'm just evaluating numbers here. I want you to succeed and make a career of this as much as anyone else. It's also my goal so I think about this a lot. I have failed many times now at creating my own businesses. We all need to learn from our experiences and improve over time. That is how you succeed. Just don't give up. You are a talented game developer and you're doing great on RU-vid as well.
Totally I 100% agree with you. Philophobia was a game I started out of emotion and I never really knew any of this back then. Now that I've got the game launch under my belt and years in the industry I feel like I've got a better grasp of what I can do and how well it will sell. Curious byte, based on your data what are some of the high performing less saturated tags?
What most people dont seem to realise is how god damn profitable Idle Clickers are. I got 4 games on the GP store, 32k downloads, 10k Downloads and 260k downloads. I am averaging 15.000 Players a day with 50.000 impressions. 17 $ average eCPM. I am still quite shit at making clicker games, I always aim way too big and end up cutting out most off the conten or (like in my most reasent project) over crowd it. Also it seems like people now value Style over gameplay. Look at Idle Miner Tycoon. There are like 4 exact copies, like almost plagarism type copies, that got more than 200k downloads.
I think binding of Isaac is a great example of what you're talking about - there's meta progression through multiple playthroughs, there's deck building with the items and procedural dungeon generation
I appreciate the way you speak because I can tell you constantly think of other people's perspectives on what you say, and then feel the need to justify what you've just said by acknowledging their perspective. It almost feels like you're having a conversation with someone who's opposing you, which I really relate to. Good video!
I'm about to create my first game which will be a multiplayer pvp game. Those have a lot of inherent risks because a lack of other people to play against can immediately kill it in the first couple of days. If it doesn't die, then players can find it as thousands of hours of competitive fun. Marketing is the only way to really save it.
just started making games and coding 1 week ago and planning on making a billion dollars with my first game soon. but yea what i didnt expect getting into this topic, was this fucking amazing youtube community. this is nothing like i imagined. actually entertaining stuff so yea nice video keep it up dude!
tbh i'm not really convinced that people who would watch a playthrough actually have any interest in buying/playing the game, I personally avoid videos of games i'm looking forward to and know others do so too. The term "media blackout" gets thrown around a lot, I think those people are there for the personality playing it rather than the game. At least you have a small chance of converting a few people.
It's funny to hear you call them "Consumable" games. I've never heard that term before, but it's perfect. You play it once and you're done. I've been thinking the same way myself. Even if you're going to make a single-player game, you need to build it like it's a multiplayer game - so build it in a way that the player wants to keep coming back for more. It doesn't necessarily have to be fully procedural though. A game like The Long Dark (sandbox mode) is a perfect example. The core gameplay loop is built around seeing how long you can survive and the game itself really never ends even though the levels are static and it's not at all procedural. Hoard mode is a game mode you could do a ton with and still not have to go into the complexities of making everything procedural. I do agree though that procedural will definitely help. Great video Tim!
Really good points again, Great point about single player games funded by studios are there to be "console sellers" you are 100% right on the consumable aspect too, story games by indies have to be exceptional to pass . really good content man, seen you around for a while but now only just taken the time to listen to your videos properly - great work
What about this theory: If you design a game with the idea of trying to sell it, it will suck and it won't sell. If you create a game that you would love to play, it will end up being a good game, and you'll find a way to market it. I would create a good game as the first priority, and figure out the best marketing strategy for that game. I could be completely wrong, I realize, but that's what makes sense to me.
Somebody watched the GDC talk lol. I personally use RU-vid channels to find games I want to play. Sure, I watch a lot of games I’m not going to play. But there are a lot of games I end up thinking are way too good for me to experience in a RU-vid video. To The Moon and Finding Paradise by Kan Gao are what come to mind when I think of this. He’s very good at writing stories and it shows. I would rather play his games myself. Kan Gao himself is also very engaged with his audience, and seems like a really nice guy. And he’s financially successful because of all this. So I think if your game has a profound experience that players would rather play the game themselves, I think you can be successful in consumable games. I think it also helps that there’s so much fine detail in To The Moon/Finding Paradise that you only learn more from replays, and exploring more. It pisses me off when a player doesn’t check out a room, or a set of drawers and just continues to the next story area. I think these are ways you can pull people in to buy consumable games. You have to be damn confident in your execution.
I liked the video but there were some things that I think you could work on. 1:- Provide links to your steam page,. I was interested in finding out more about your games but I couldn't find a link to your games which means I have to go through all your videos to find out more which is meh. This might also help you get a few sales here and there, dude. 2:- You were way too apologetic. I get it, it's your opinion and you'#re afraid someone will lose money because of some bearded guy on the internet. One disclaimer at the beginning and maybe a short reminder at the end would suffice. 3:- No link to any of the devs or youtubers you suggested. I have to make sure i'm hearing you right and try and type every name which can sometimes be harder than you think. Even if it goes without any issues it still means that i have to mess about with the video timer to get all three names instead of just clicking the links. Anywho, good video. I have been working on a strat/rpg because I've pretty much come to the same conclusion as you but there was a lot of extra info you gave that I hadn't thought about, thanks.
From my humble experience and research I have done. Best way to make a decent living or side coin depends where you live at- is to focus on mobile. I know few guys who never coded or did any art and they still made around 15kish in 12 months by developing game as a hobby. They are not big games, they are quite short and most of them are shoot em up or rogue like based. Month ago me and my brother started working on our first game with literally 0 knowledge on how to do so. Thanks to Covid19 lockouts in our country and being on complete country lockdown gave us some time to start working on game dev. I did some art several years back but nothing serious, I have been doing some pixel art research and my bro completed several C# unity courses. I think we are onto something right now as you did mention we are building Roguelike RPG with side mini card game, you basically crawl through game killing bosses praying to RNG gods to get some Card/Deck drops. We got few systems in so far, combat at really early stage, some basic boss mechanics and few prototipe areas. Just to see how everything ties together if interested check out our screen shots imgur.com/69UBiBB imgur.com/nXl4JMw
Pretty much on the same path as you! Is it 15kish without all the predatory ads and gamble fueled iaps? I love the pixel art style haha, I wish you good luck!
@@IT-vy7kx they didnt have aggressive ads on their games. 15k is profit they achieved. Basically they made around 26k minus all taxes and minus some % they paid to publishers. Not all of them went with publishers but i know few did, that are aiming at switch too.
@@IT-vy7kx I'm glad, you should also look into some stardew valley developer interviews. That guy deserves alot of credit considering he also has 0 game development backgrounds with lil to no coding/art skills. Sure it took him 4 and half years to release Stardew valley but considering how packed with content that game is and with no prior game dev experience 4 and half years is not that long.
@@Niko_3D I never looked into it, thanks for mentioning it, putting success aside that's really inspiring to read! Something is changing in the gaming world.
Personally as a viewer of those streamers that play consumable games, the things that really drive me to buy that kind of game are controls and the layout of levels and extras. I want to experience the gameplay for myself in my own way, which is why I often avoid those games with strict, must-do-it-this-way kind of puzzles or level designs. This is why I don't really like games that are so focused so much on the story that it becomes nearly pointless to play the actual game in the first place. Can a great game have great, variable gameplay that allows for unique player experiences AND have a great story? I really think so, it just isn't done too much. The first thing that comes to mind, for me, is The Legend of Zelda BotW (minus the story/ progression part). Yes, it is a AAA exclusive for a console with a lot of money put into its development, but there are certain parts of it that could be adopted in indie titles without such a huge world. For instance, the ability to mess around with the world and have fun just traveling from place to place is a huge part of it. Also, allowing for multiple solutions to problems that occur after a certain amount of time has passed. Also, the fact that some of these streamers aren't very good at some of these games just gets me more motivated to play them myself, so there's that. Honestly, there are legitimate reasons why consumable and infinitely-varied games are both great and not-so great. Consumable games can be cleared in a set amount of time, but offer a certifiably wonderful experience every time you play it. Variable games are often the breeding ground for unique experiences all of the time, but aren't always the most immersive, grand-scale epics that keep us hooked, especially after a certain amount of time has passed playing them. The latter definitely has more appeal, which is sad but understandable in the game market, but having consumable experiences are always welcome amongst the gaming community. Some genres have not seen much action since the early 2000s, like 3D Platformers, which have just recently seen a slight increase in interest amongst indie and AAA devs. I know that a large chunk of the gaming community really misses this kind of game, but it's probably one of the hardest to do right and it's a lot of work for a consumable product, so I assume devs just say it's more trouble than it's worth and avoid it, which is really sad since these games, when done well, are some of the most memorable gaming experiences ever.
@Mark Erjavec all three tags, horror, psychological horror and survival horror are ranked 123 through 180 in terms of estimated lifetime revenue >$100k (17% to 22% earn this much and n is 350 to 1100) which actually isn't THAT bad, but it's on the lower half of my scale. FYI on my scale rank 349 is the worst-selling tag and 1 is, obviously, the best selling.
I want your opinion on something that's been on my mind lately. Does it seem that games nowadays focus is on monetary gain through visual cosmetics and not addictive core gameplay? Has the main target audience become kids that are 10 with parents with credit cards? My main point I'm asking is this: Is there an untapped group of gamers who will see the value in building their own experiences? Is there a demand for groups of gamers becoming online developers?
agree with you, but makes me curious as to how games like celeste and hollow knight got big. For me, i got celeste to learn the speedrun so it had infinitely more replay value, but what about the millions of people who bought it casually? Did big streamers and youtubers not play and finish the game on their channel?
@@thehambone1454 You could have just answered my question in the time it took you to write your smartass reply. I wonder who is lazier: Me or you? Maybe google knows.
This is why the Souls series does so well. On the surface these games are consumable. Millions of stream views, but people still purchase because they're known for being hard. There is a "can I beat it" rite of passage mentality.
I think he means a game with little replay value; it's story-based and NOT procedurally generated. Once you know the story there isn't much reason to keep playing it over again. This is a consumable game.
Hey sorry, thought I did. Yeah basically it's games where their content can be consumed.if you can play through a game, and the next time you play through it's the exact same, it's consumable. Story games, linear content based games, hand crafted level based games, etc.
For everyone searching, the three people he mentioned at ~15:00 are: Ryan Clark @braceyourselfok (Twitter) Mike Rose @RaveofRavendale (Twitter) Jake Birkett @GreyAlien (Twitter)
But story used to ship with more thant just story. Golden eay had multiplayer. Time splitters had multiplayer and arcade mode. Halo had multiplayer, warcraft had multiplayer. Half life had deathmatch and bunch of modes. The same goes for doom and the other shooters. Every game without something to do after you finished the game was only played once. Crash team racing and the lego racing games was played alot cause they had pvp. And there for was fun after
I spent hours watching Nookrium playing Kenshi on Sundays. Safe to say it´s my favorite game of all time. Oh yeah, hit me up if you need music or sound fx for your games guys, really interested in trying it out. Cheers!
I'm interested in making something of a rogue-like game on a possible future after I finish college, and I was wondering, are there any websites or discord servers where you can share your progress with other people/developers?
I think you have a good point about "consumable games", they're difficult to play through more than once within a short time period, take undertale for example. I played through once but decided not to play through again. Instead I watched a let's play. Havent touched the game since.
I'm curious what you think about paid early access for indie games. I think it its a good way of raising money and staying relevant with dev updates until final release. Trade off is likely just the commitment to regular updates and possibly a longer development time (which isn't that bad if your getting paid.)
I think it highly depends on the games. I think ea works great for run based games and procedural content that has an end, where you're just adding to the middle. For me though I think it would hurt my motivation a bit. I like working toward a goal and then launching.
Yeah they play the long haul and make a game that gets continued sales from procedural content generation mixed with really complex gameplay. Harder to make. It's definitely more long haul though. I personally play more consumable games. I like when they have an ending. I like when it's mixed up a bit though.
I had what I think is a very good idea about a tactics + deck building kinda game, but I'm scared about what it would cost to hold servers, and I thought you'd have to launch it free with deck lootbox kind of thing or whatnot and all of this scares me so I'm just developing a solo platformer instead...
I'm probably going to start making a 2D TBS game inspired by the Heroes of Might and Magic series (particularly the 2nd and 3rd installments). I want to take their recipe and add a bit more realism to the game mechanics as well as mobile support and modern multiplayer options. Wish me luck :)) Also I think Nookrium is too soft when it comes to criticizing the games he plays, he likes everything :P
hahah I love you brother. You sound like *insert any cryptocurrency youtuber*: "Just my opinion, this not financial advice". Kidding aside, keep up the great work man!!
interesting arguments here but in this scenario couldn't it be argued that music industry and game industry are the same thing? both products are consumable but people play a song a million times over after the first listen. Similarly people play certain rpgs over again and even some openworlds games over again. so what makes the game industry different?
VR Games are getting easier and easier to make, and there are lots of unique concepts that haven't been explored yet. Definitely take a look into that stuff. Edit: Puzzle games are always good if you have a good idea for mechanics and a way to make it different.
Great video, Tim! I have just a small complain - video is overexposed. Lights are too bright. It looks like Gamma color space in Unity :-) 3:11 - isn't SteamSpy a good way to see half-accurate sales? Like for RUST, for example: Owners: 10,000,000 .. 20,000,000
Owners aren't even remotely close to sales. Lots of people get it for free, lots of people buy bundles, lots of people buy keys, etc etc. Steam review numbers are only from actual steam buyers so it makes it a little more accurate I think. Also lighting...yeah every time windows updates it freaking wipes my camera settings and I forgot to change it.
@@tim-ruswick Thanks for explaining! Yeah - every major Windows Update defaults sound and video settings. You may delay major updates (maximum for 365 days). Delaying those is safe - you still will get security updates and bugfixes! This video explains it quite good (a little exaggeration about how Windows is bad but information is solid): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-N3MH9wizGfw.html
Good video/topic and definitely worth a deeper dive. I feel like your picks do lean toward your preferences There are so many genres and when you get into cross-breeding genres/mechanics (hybrids), all bets are off in terms of what might be a viable project choice. As for consumable vs non-consumable, I feel like "re-consumable" is a better way to describe a game with replay value.
I agree. I think instead of viable genres maybe I should have said "markets I think have more demand than supply that are reasonably doable by a small developer". Viable is the wrong word because I think it implies everything else is not viable.
@@tim-ruswick I'm ok with the term "viable" and its a good fit for what we're talking about. I was really interested in the tag-breakdown one of your comments brought up. Wondering if we could get a hold of some of those stats.
Hey sorry, posted this in another comment but just so you see it: Basically it's games where their content can be consumed. If you can play through a game, and the next time you play through it's the exact same, it's consumable. Story games, linear content based games, hand crafted level based games, etc.
There's always a place for products that are difficult to sell. Problem is, the chances being lower makes the competition for those few successful spots way harder. Someone is gonna make a buck with a linear, non-replayable game soon? Sure. Will it be you? Hardly. "Viable" niches are just slices of the market where more people can get good results doing that thing at the same time. Think of the explosion of Battle Royales, right at the beginning.
Making a good game is the first step. You need good marketing too, but you actually need both to succeed. If you make a good game and nobody knows about it, you don't sell any, if you make a shitty game and pour all your money in marketing, you still wont be successful, cause your game is bad. It's one or the other, you need both.
people always ask him to ease a little on the ranting or organize the content more but I guess he wouldnt do that otherwise no one would watch the full thing
yeah. I usually skip most of his videos because of that. the themes seem interesting, he seems experienced, Im even subscribed and I rarely click a video, let alone watch it fully. I remember commenting once about the content being disorganized and people got upset. I think he even responded saying he doesnt like scripting the videos. like, at least script a summary and rant the other 15 min.
this kind of content would fit way better on a podcast, where youre expecting ranting and free flow of ideas for longer times. Id totally listen to that seeing an interesting topic on a video title from an experienced dev and realizing its lost somewhere in the middle of a 20 min long rant really takes away motivation to watch it.
A game that hardly differs throughout playthroughs and hardly differs whether you play it or watch it played. Think linear story-driven games as prime examples.
Ugh, this might be an unpopular opinion? but games dying financially because of "Let's Play" videos that show the *entire* story...that's piracy and should not be happening! When my daughter was younger she was watching entire games like this and not buying them. I would actually buy those games for her when I found out what they were, but I still feel like even with the game purchased, her core experience was RU-vid. She wouldn't even finish Persona 5 because she knew her favorite character was going to die lol.
Thats a good point that people can just watch games for the story now on youtube or streaming. In a way it feels like copyright infringement, but the positives of streamers for gaming outweighs the negative, so we have to adapt. Emergent gameplay and procedural generation is what really sells games these days
