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Honestly, all of the Origin characters are worthy of a video as they all have tragic stories of their own. Orin's story is pretty tragic as well...a lot of layers there...especially when the Dark Urge is involved. Whichever you choose, I am sure it will be entertaining. :)
I think this is why Act II felt stronger than Act III for most, even putting bugs aside. All of Act II and even parts of Act I build Ketheric up to be this terrifying figure who cannot be killed. There's not enough of that for Gortash and Orin and the story kind of peters out as a result. Still a great story, but a missed opportunity.
I fully agree that the game builds up more narrative tension around Ketheric than around the other two Chosen. Recruiting Minthara and/or playing Dark Urge creates more tension with Orin, but yes, ultimately it's a missed opportunity. Orin is such a great villain, more could and should have been made out of her. We *could* also talk about the tension between Karlach and Gortash... but Gortash is too bland a villain for that to matter very much. However, I disagree about Act 3 more generally. It builds towards the final confrontation with the Elder Brain pretty effectively. But aside from that, it's full of dramatic crescendos, which have often been been building since Act 1. The Hag and Mayrina, Lorroakin and Nightsong, Cazador and Astarion, Raphael and his 'deal', Wyll's decision, Shart's secret past, the Balduran reveal... In short, I don't think it's lacking in narrative tension and I don't think it peters out.
Gortash is okay. I like that you can actually ally with him, and he is good to his word. Orin is too comically evil to be realistic in any way. There is no indication why Ketheric or Gortash would work with someone like her. How can she run anything when she has no control over her violent impulses? It's a good VA performance, but I didn't care for the character at all. Just because you follow Bhaal doesn't mean you turn into a common street murderous psycho. Sarevok was never like this in the old game. And don't get me started on what they did to Sarevok. It's also the only voice acting which I feel is wrong in this game.
I hoped that Ketheric would have a betrayal plan that he would accomplish and kill Gortash and Orin in act 2, or infect them with tadpoles so he can control them. That way he could escape after his defeat at our hands and we would arrive at BG with Orin and Gortash still intact OR if they died, we would have to fight against tadpoled Ravengard influence, which would in turn make Wyll's story much more interesting. Ketheric would still be alive and even bigger threat and we would finally defeat him in act 3. This way we could keep the dark undertones of previous acts, not have comically evil villains, expand on the excellent conflict of gods between dead three, Selune and Shar etc. Of course that's in hindsight and I guess Larian had to rush act 3 so they couldnt come up with a more interesting story there. Lots of people consider act 3 their favorite so perhaps its up to preference. I'm in favour of dark atmosphere so the lively, colorful and comical act 3 wasnt to my taste
@@RalphT666 Yeah Sarevok was bad. And yes, Orin was a bit too much. But I prefer that to not enough. Orin commanded the screen every time she was on it. Gortash was just meh. That's the cardinal sin when it comes to super-villains.
@@RalphT666 originally Orin was not the chosen of bhaal she usurped the position from *redacted* and that person was the original partners of gorash and ketheric if you listen to gorash words *redacted* was just as blood thirsty as Orin, but *redacted* was more disciplined and had more control over bhaal's need to murder
The note you find on his person legitimately messed me up. It's such a tiny thing but after everything that happened, it was like getting hit right in the gut.
I wish he figured more prominently. He ought to be the final boss of the three Chosen, to be honest. The writing and the voice acting deserve that imnsho.
Yeah, Ketheric along with the other main villains, bar Raphael, were not the most well developed. Baldur's Gate 3 does a lot of things right, but the villains could have benefited from some extra screentime.
What I find so fascinating is how Balthazar pretended to align himself with the goals of Shar, whilst secretly pushing the agenda of his true master-Myrkhul.
It's a bit of a shame that these lore deepdives don't garner as much attention as a simple patch rundown, this was a phenomenal video and really helped me put all the pieces of Ketheric's story together.
I know right. I wish I could do these all the time but this video has made about $50 for 25 hours of work lol With that said I will still do them, I just can't do them all the time.
@@WolfheartFPSfair! They’re very well done and hearing all the lore getting put in chronological order was so satisfying. Thank you for doing this and more when you can!
I imagine it's because of this game being so long and so large, many people want to wait until they either beat the game once, or play through a couple times with their planned builds.
There is an easy way to explain any "mistakes" in lore in that everything in the game was written by a character in that game, and just like with our history people get things wrong, exaggerate, lie, misremember, etc. Since people can make mistakes, if two points of info in a piece of media don't match up then it means the character that is the source of one of those points was wrong.
Precisely when in doubt Volo has been about @@alex-uw4mm
10 месяцев назад
The problem for me is the timeline, is very confused. And I'm talking about the people that was there (like Alen or Jaheira). The order sounds like: the mother's death, than Isobel, than he became shar's champion. But how long it's took between that? Because Jahira says they killed him 100 years ago, and Isobel was dead for 100 years... So, everything happened on months?
@ when they say 100 years ago, they don't mean exactly 100 years before today. It's a ballpark. Just like how we call it the 90's, the 1800s, the medieval age, etc.
Had not touched a computer game for what, 15 years or so? Had to pick up BG3, remembering the countless hours I spent playing the original and its sequel... have to say BG3 is an absolute masterpiece of D&D gaming... well done Larian and thanks to you for channels like this one!!
Dragons age was the last one i played (on xbox even!) literally! Very very good also. Planescape torment I remember, absolute classic! Played it all when it came out at the time on PC! ❤
Totally agree. I've very much been "over" gaming and it's state for a while. BG3 filled the bioware sized hole in my heart. Good luck to all future rpg developers! 😂
On my first playthrough I convinced Ketheric to redeem himself. ... which surprised me to no end. 😳 I did not expected him to actually do it! 😮 But I beat him and went into the "Myrkul" phase without having to fight him again deep beneath Moonrise Towers. I was stunned. To me he looked like he would never falter and embrace fanatism and cruelty until the end - but alas he didn't. A small redemption sure but a redemption non the less. It made me see him as much more Human... or Elven in this case. 😎
Oooh wow! How did you do it? His story broke my heart like few side character stories in games ever did. I wish I could witness that in a future playtrough.
@@Kanikanihia Hahahaha, he is a maincharacter though, just an antanogist. 😁 My character was a Sorcerer and as such I invested primary in Charisma. If you plunder through his private room in Moonrise Towers and check everywhere in the Crypt that Raphael greets you outside, your character can maximize information about Ketheric at some point. And then you can convince him that this is not what his lost family members would have wanted. He was not a complete Villain after all. Only through his pain he could be used for this farce that was the Absolute.
@@Kanikanihia you need to find out the letter his wife Melodia wrote to him in his bedroom in the moonrise, then you get an extra dialogue option to tell him that his wife wouldn't want to see him like this when you confront him.
@@LawfulBased Side character, in the sense that he’s not a companion and yet has an awesome story that touched me as much the companion ones. Thank you for the info! That’s where I went wrong, I only throughly searched his crypt, not his chamber.
The trope of characters going to great lengths in the name of grief is one of my favourites, as it always shows the different depths us human may go to seek an end to our pain, either through revenge, revival of the lost one, world peace etc. Its such an interesting plot thread for me with how many ways it can be taken.
@@TinMan445Ketheric is the best, but Orin and Gortash were still great villians too IMHO. Orin's greatness was largely in the paranoia she inspires throughout much of Act 3.
@@TinMan445 For me too. Orin is a good villain, but she could have been a great one. The game didn't make the most out of her. Introduced her too late, which made it hard to build any real tension. Gortash on the other hand is just fairly bland as a villain. Not especially memorable or interesting.
For me it's Raphael. Not close. Thorm is a fine tragic villain... but Raphael is a proper, charismatic, scheming, mustache-twirling, peak-90s Disney villain. An instant classic.
Small correction, Isobel was in the last light before the Harper's, you find that out if you return to the last light after reading thorms disries but before releasing dame aylin, you can acuse her if being kethrics daughter, and Jahiera will reveal that isobel was there before them.
Imagine if Larian put together some kit together using their game system, for people to come up with their own D&D game (using what's available in their game). I'd sign up right now.
That’s called modding support ^^ But the amount of work needed to write your story within a videogame is extremely high. It would be much easier for players to enable some sort of DMing, as this allows one to avoid writing all possible threads.
YES, I love act 2, it was such an eerie experience and Ketheric was that ever present thread that connected its different locations and characters together. Larian really made such an enveloping ecosystem that I got lost in. I love lore videos like these!!! Great work as always Wolf! SKÁL 🍺
I think the dead three are also behind the death of isobel. Its somewhat of a grand scheme that includes breaking ketheric's mind and then introduce balthazar later to recruit him and use him until he can discard him once ketheric fulfilled his part in their said scheme as he admits in one of his diaries that you can find in the mindflayer colony that he was never really loyal to ketheric and he's only putting a front so he can bring about total annihilation in the name of myrkul. That combined with the emperor's memory that he shares with you where you see him being abducted at moonrise towers by mindflayers and the vision clearly shows a pre-curse rithwen which assumes that this plan was in effect long before ketheric unleashed the curse
Someone looked through the datamined info and early access junk about Halsin and found out his original storyline was that he had killed Isobel (accidentally) using the glaive 'sorrow' thats hidden under the emerald grove and thats why he's so desperate to get rid of the shadowcurse bc he felt responsible, but it was cut in full release, likely hinting about the tense truce between the harpers and druids. Ik its not canon anymore but its so interesting to think about
Ik this is late, but someone found more data mined info where Isobel was soul trapped by Balthazar. Aylin was then framed for her death because she wouldn't leave Isobel's body.
Yes! I want more of these lore videos from the game! There are like 10 editions of A is for Azuth, the Arcane Tower story, and more! Love combining in game events, books (that we totally read…not just right click read and close) and lore to make great stories. Wolf you are the best.
Wow this video is so enlightening for Act 2’s lore. I’m just in awe. Anyway one thing you mentioned really stood out to me about why Ketheric needed to get Aylin out of the Shadowfell was because after he betrayed Shar he could no longer guarantee She would not screw with his soul cage that he left behind. But of course Shar is a Goddess and the Shadowfell is her realm, you would think she could end Ketheric’s immortality by killing or releasing Aylin herself with the snap of her fingers, BUT she didn’t, and I think it was because she believed Aylin could serve a greater purpose, the purpose of anointing the Selunite girl she had her Highest Priestess Groom for over 40 years ascend as the first real Justiciar in a century and her new Chosen. But of course in the meantime she wouldn’t let Ketheric’s forces anywhere near the Shadowfell, which would explain why Balthazar wouldn’t be able to get to the Shadowfell until the player (and Shadowheart) arrived. (And why Shadowheart was resistant to the Shadowcurse, not because she’s a Cleric of Shar but because she was in line to become Shar’s Chosen.) In some playthroughs it works and Shadowheart fulfills her mission, in others this plot ultimately fails just when it reaches its climax.
That's a great video, Wolfheart, thank you! There are so many interesting little stories in BG3 to uncover, deeply rooted in FR setting. I'm playing my second run and I find I have missed so many the first time I played.
Great video! Ketheric is definitely a complex character with a tragic back story. During my playthrough I empathized with him, much more than I did Orin or Gortash.
Thank you for this! You've got the knack for storytelling! Since i first read about this area I was very intrigued by it. Ketheric is a very well made villain, but the story is mostly told through reading, so many players miss small connecting informations (including me) Glad you did this! very well done.
See, Ketheric should have been the final villain too. Like, Myrkel should hold off on making Ketheric an Avatar of Death until the other two Chosen are vanquished so he can get their stones and fight the player for theirs.
I just finished act two last week and man it was a thrill to see this story play out and this video helped fill in some of the blanks I had, I really wish my character was able to make him redeem himself bc those fights whooped my ass lmao
In my playthrough i tried to get ketheric to surrender on the top of the towers before the fight. and so when it came to his main fight under the towers i offered mercy again and he decided to just give up and give himself to myrkul so i never actually fought him a second time. I also saved isobel and aylin so they are together.
This was really insightful, Wolfheart, thank you! Could you possibly create a video on the history of the Astral Prism, or perhaps one that explains what happened to each companion leading up to the start of the main story? It's a bit confusing and would be great to have some clarity.
I think the reason Ketheric is not immortal yet during the fight with harpers and druids is because the spell syphon's Aylin's life by 'dying'' and going back to life. There might be a required number of deaths. Or simply, he died before the immortality kicked in.
I might be wrong, but the game clearly shows, that Ketheric is immortal only when Aylin is caged, cuz the soul cage is making Aylin share immortality with Ketheric.
Thank you Wolfheart for another great video. BG3 has a complexity that is both excellent and frustrating. But the story, especially through the notes, letters, and books add so much to the immersion. Let's not forget the Voice actor(ess)s. The funny thing is when I finished off Ketheric, I felt bad for him because I asked myself, "What would I do in his place?" See you next video.
Nah, the Canon end is saving Isobel from being captured, then have Shadowheart decide to save Aylin, turning from Shar. High enough relationship with Shadowheart allows this without even needing to do a persuasion check. Show Ketheric mercy which skips phase one of his boss fight and jumps right to the fight with Murkul. Then watch the love reunion of Isobel and Aylin. And Shadowheart gets her white hair and becomes the players official romance as well
Just find out these days that JK Simmons gave his voice to Ketheric Thorm 😅🙈. I try to imagine how his city was like 100 years ago, as the events of Neverwinter Nights (+2) happened. That would be great storys for Larian to tell. I like the reference to nwn and the swordcoast (games...). There are so many storys that could be told. And of course, as always a great presentation Wolf and also great storytelling from the writers of Larian 👏
Speaking of Kethric Thorm, I come with a possible game breaking bug that almost made me restart the fight. When you fight him and before the fight make sure you have a ton of scrolls of protection from good and evil. I was playing dark urge necro with evil party, he was able to kill 1 of my members and frightened the rest of the party. However kethric's frighten causes your party to not be able to move and it doesn't go away in two turns like it is supposed too. The only solution is to use a scroll or spell of protection against good and evil to remove frighten. If not that bug ruins the game. This bug is still active so I hope my warning helps. Happy hunting.
I was sad to see that I couldn't talk to Isobel regarding her father's motivations, and at least show her some of the notes I found - for example the fact that he kept a note she seemingly wrote him when she was a child, even at his last moments, shows just how much she meant to him. I get she wants to just move on, but I thought it a disservice to simply write him off as a mindless lunatic. Then again, playing devil's advocate, even slightly, for a man that caused countless deaths and tragedies all so he could have the chance of bringing his family back would likely be something nobody wants to hear, especially since there were bigger things to worry about at the time. It's easier to just forget him...
Thanks for making this, I didnt read all the books and notes and had no idea what was going on at the end in act 2. Literally met the nightsong and was like (-_-) "who are you?"
I like that you caught on the Ketheric Thorms disapproval of the pairing of Aylin and Isobel had nothing to do with them being a same-sex couple - nobody says anything about that. I've heard a lot of misrepresentation of that from other gamers...but there is no evidence of that. Only the power-dynamic, which in truth is off - but Im sure they'll make it work 🙂. Anyway - who to deep dive into next? Gortash? He has a pretty tragic backstory. In fact it is awful and something that is so easy to miss. Orin - she is awful but so is her upbringing... You could make it a "Chosen" trilogy. Jaheira - a lot of people don't know her full story because much of it happens in the other older games. Cazador has a pretty tragic backstory as well (not that it excuses anything - but still) and he has a pretty interesting family - also easy to miss and would include a rummage in the attics in Cazador manision. Just a few ideas.
Great video, I love also how in the game you need to search and find these pieces of information to get the complete story. Great game and storytelling.
I love these lore dump videos, they help for people who don't read the books in the game or talk to certain NPC's etc. For example I knew the other Thorms but didn't know the relation! Thanks Wolf, I hope you do more! 🍻
This is so good!! Ever since I first completed Act 2 I was hoping to find a video like this outlining the story of the Thorms and now you’ve brought this to us and it’s perfect! Amazing job Wolf! 🎉
I am not sure I see him as a tragic figure. Sure he suffered loss but in his grief he inflicted those losses on countless people and unleashed unimaginable horrors on the land. How many innocents suffered mutilation, torture and death due to Ketheric's actions? Pledged allegiance to an evil god and killed unbelievers when he turned to Shar, raised an army to bring war to the innocent, unleashed the shadow curse on the land killing and twisting everything it touched, switched to a second evil god, participated in the Absolute crisis leading to more countless death and ruined lives. I think madness and evil was always under the surface, likely his happy family kept it at bay.
Awesome video. But a small correction at 10:25. Halsin was not yet Archdruid during the first battle for moonrise. The first arch druid at that time was lost after Ketheric was entombed and the shadowcurse fell upon the land. Halsin took charge during the chaos.
I just finished act 2 and Ketheric Thorm was a great character. I loved that he was voiced by J.K. Simmons. I wish there was more of him though. He has the part where you meet him and then the battle and that's about it (at least on how I dealt with him. I partially want more because I love J.K. Simmons' voice. I also heard that he was potentially going to be a companion at one point in development and that would have been cool.
I just realized that you can skip the first phase of the 2nd Ketheric fight, if you tried to convince him to give up in the first phase. I thought it was kind of dumb and corny to just be like "hey, if you stop now, I may spare you, lol." to the most badass villain ever, so I didn't even bother. This was the first fight that really forced me to change the way I approach combat.
Fantastic Purveyor of Storytelling is what the FPS is all about! Sunday story time is so great. Something more on Zevlor or Duke Ravengard might be interesting. Thanks for the lore dives!
I am half way through my third playthrough. There are two things that I just don't understand how to use: Lighting Charges and Reverberation. It seems pretty clear how to gain them, but how to use them is a bit obscured. Now that I think about it, I have no I clue as to what Arcane synergy is supposed to mean. I know that I can google these terms, but that doesn't really give me an answer when it comes to BG3.
Exactly what I needed :) It was all a little confusing where Ketheric was a Selunite, but then turned to Shar, but somehow was not worthy any more... Interesting how it all tied together with Halsin and also the Harpers, hints were already in the Emerald Grove. I was actually interested in the temple where the githyanki creche was located, it was so pretty. And the deity seemed quite positive, as opposed to all others 😅😅😅
Thanks for watching. The temple where the Githyanki creche is located is in honor of the God Lathander. The morning lord. The deity of spring, rebirth, and fertilization.
I would love to see a campaign take place in a newly rebuilt Reithwin dealing with the fallout from the shadow curse fighting some former followers of Thorm and maybe discovering a Thorm family member who survived
Ok we need more videos like this for the background stuff in BG3. Love to see a video putting together all the information on the prologue of the game, stealing the astral prism and crown of carsis
My theory on his death 100 Years ago mirrors his final death. When we beat him, it seems as if murkyl had abandoned him as his champion. I think when the Harper’s and Druids beat him. What was done with him. She probably figured immortality would be wasted since they would have captured him if he couldn’t die and closed off his access to the nightsongs powers. As you said as well. After his was brought back by Balthazar, they knew they would have to reclaim the night song because they couldn’t trust shar as the gatekeeper to his powers.
I do enjoy these lore videos and how they tie into one of the best games in recent memory. If you find yourself looking for more subjects, maybe something about Withers, now that many have at least one playthrough under their belts! :)
Something interesting about Ketheric I didn't notice at first is he is the ONLY character/NPC in the game with an American accent. Which I doubt was an intentional choice, stylistically. But it is interesting because it never really stands out. Probably because JK Simmons is just so commanding as an actor.
It feels like the preferred and poetic canon ending is after reading through Ketheric’s diary you are given the option to persuade Ketheric to be saved. Then the whole fight with him in the nautiloid ship is skipped as he decides to fall in to repent. After you beat Myrkul, the dialogue is changed from cursing the player, to instead Ketheric reflecting on his life and says he has *nothing* and calls out Isobel’s name. So his final words come full circle to Isobel’s question asking why did he change.
I think Ketheric didn't die, but he instead feigned his death. it looks like he suffered a mortal wound, but he slowly recovered from it until he was sure the Harpers and Druids were effected by the shadow curse before returning. That way, he's technically died, but didn't really.
Knowing that Shar likes to use mortals as disposable pawns its also likely she let go of Ketheric after his loss and used him to further her domain via the shadow-curse.
