The TRUE History of Clerics in D&D 

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I think I prefer Clerics to have a god or gods in my campaign, but if someone has a great character idea with an ideal they want to follow, I'm ok with that as well. The character of gods is based on human ideals anyway, so as far as I'm concerned the same can be said in D&D.

I once was in a game where there was a Warlock and a Cleric, both serving the same deity on their own way. It created a lot of good RP moments between them. A lot of fun things can come when you blur the lines of what a cleric, warlock or paladin must serve!

Currently playing a cleric who worships ancestors. It's quite fun describing spells in terms of him calling upon the knowledge/skills of the tribal spirits.

Clerics worshiping deities to gain abilities is one of the reasons they are my favorite class. I love all the different gods with their varying themes. I will always choose one for my Clerics but if a player wants to go with an ideal, I'd allow it as a DM. Even though that kinda treads on the Paladin a bit imo.

As a Counterpoint to Dark Sun: In Dragonlance (the beginning) was the big thing that the Deities where no longer present and therefore there was no Divine Magic.

I understand the whole "I want your personal opinion, not a recitation of the book" but a lot of people really do prefer to defer to the book. Ben Milton referred to this in his last video as the official vs folk d&d dichotomy. Definitely worth a watch.

One of my favorite parts of most TTRPGs is that the different divisions between classes and abilities don't have to be tied down to the in-universe explanations given in the sourcebooks-- they're essentially just templates of abilities that give your character life! If your group is fine with it, warlocks can absolutely have their power without a patron, or a cleric's magical power can come from entirely within them akin to a Divine Soul sorcerer. It's just a whole book of suggestions that can be modified or replaced as your group sees fit!

Hey Bob, thanks for making your Established Title sponsorship more clear that those are not real titles. That's appreciated.

The 1st Ed AD&D dmg pg 38 has an interesting take on a cleric's spells. Where depending on the spell level they received it from different sources of the deity. 1st and 2nd levels needed no divine source but 3rd through 5th were from a subordinate of the deity. And 6th and up directly from the deity. So technically in 1st Ed you don't need a deity for the first 3 level. Though having a deity for the character imo adds a lots of RP interaction.

Personally, I don't think you should abandon role-playing elements unless you have something to replace them with. As a DM I'll insist you explain yourself whenever you want to have the powers without a patron / deity.

Unless a player explicitly wants a god involved it is never needed.

I think it comes down to the setting and what the group wants. As a DM I prefer to go with what the story wants, and if a player wants a god for their cleric, or if they wanna be based on an ideal. That’s cool with me. 🎉

Bob... you navigated the intricacies of Established Titles MASTERFULLY!! Loved the video, too!!!

I feel like cleric having a god can be a good plot device or otherwise so I like clerics having gods.

So true. It all a matter of what and how you want to RPG. The books are guides for your table

Yes. Clerics need a god. There needs to be a source for that power.

I think these rules are just mechanics, and shouldn't be tied to flavor that strongly. As a DM, I let players write whatever they want in their sheets in order to realize their vision.

My girlfriend played a sort of atheist cleric - a Knowledge Domain gnome. She had the theory that the gods just weren't there anymore, and divine magic was only the manifestation of cosmic 'residue-like energies' coming through the light of the stars. She dropped out of her monastic school and set out to the world trying to assemble other people with her ideas. It was a lot of fun.

What i think is extreamly intresting is that the blood hunter is essentially the modern variant of a vampire hunter, which a cleric was already meant to be. Its very intresting that the celric was meant to kinda fill 2 roles in ADND

Not a "god" necessarily, but some sort of divine force that certain ideals would easily connect to. You could be one with "nature" or a follower of Gia, and I'd believe your character as a nature cleric. But re-flavoring can always change the dynamic. For example my space Marine in a sci fi campaign uses his "esprit de corps" to obtain his War cleric abilities and uses his Military symbol as a religious symbol/arcane focus.

In my opinion the difference between a cleric and warlock is not that the source of the power, like what entity provides it, but how it is provided, These days you also have celestial warlocks that can make deals with gods, so its no longer an argument that their patrons are weaker, even from just the phb an fey warlock could choose a god from the feywild as their patron. What I think the big difference between an cleric and warlock is is that a cleric gets their power through faith, while a warlock gets their power through a deal, and is handed it from his patron, A cleric could theoretically be a cleric of a god without the god actually knowing of its cleric, unlikely, but since the magic is based on the faith of the cleric, the gods state or even existence is irrelevant. That while a warlock makes a direct pact with their patron, they are given their powers, and thus its a very different thing.

I was really surprised that you didn't mention Deities and Demigods- the entire book on gods, planes, and clerics.

I have no idea how the Established Titles controversy hasn't reached this channel yet, but it's honestly shocking that it hasn't.

I made a godless Tiefling cleric whose whole schtick was traveling from church to church, pretending to be whatever domain that town's church was in order to grift free stuff. Also, he grifted the party by knowing no healing spells, adding to an inside joke that our whole group had no healers or tanks. Fun stuff lol

"If it were up to me, two of them would just become subclasses" This had me curious. I'd love to see your version of classes/subclasses. Maybe a future video going into how you classify, what you'd add/remove, and your reasoning? Could even be the start of an awesome expansion, but obviously you've got enough work on your plate as a content creator, so no pressure.

Its a world of magic. Worship the barbarians sock collection if you like. That's the fun of the game for me.

I'm in the camp that cleric cleric don't necessarily need a deity, it as you and others mentioned can be philosophy or force of nature. This allows for more customization and I'm all for variety. 15:20 Praise the Sun Y'all!

I think you should have a closer look on where Mentzer went with clerics later on. Basic there is mostly a re-skin of the earlier Moldvay Basic, but by the third box (Companion, character levels 15-25) he raises the possibility of beings called 'immortals', each serving one of 5 'spheres' of power (Matter, Energy, Thought, Time and Entropy) and the possibility that such might even be the end point of a PC's life. Through the Masters set (level 26-36) we get specific pathways whereby that might happen laid out, and then we get the real game changer, the Immortals Set. A D&D rules set whereby PCs who have become said immortals are play out cosmic scale adventures. When Classic D&D was repackaged into the Rules Cyclopedia this all stayed, and the revamped Immortals rules even had Immortal level spells such as 'hear supplicants'. Mechanically classic D&D doesn't require that clerics have 'gods'. But what we got in its place was bigger, broader, and both playable and far more interesting. I don't know if you're familiar with the rest of those product lines, but it's very much worth checking them out.

Just wanna say I like how you handled the established titles sponsorship. There's a lot of drama around it right now but I think you laid out clearly what it is. The products not for me but I understand we all need to earn a living and I think it was a good sponsor spot. (Corrected spelling)

We should define first what we mean when we say "god". We could assume that some cleric can derive its power from an undetermined "entity" or "force", not necessarily a "person like" god with a name and humanoid semblance. What I think is necessary is that the force has to be immanent.

I always interpreted clerical magic coming from faith itself, and this makes the cleric think that their faith or god is the real one (the one and only). This will shape how clerics either want to keep their faith for themselves, or spread it: peacefully and not shedding blood; or bloody and chaotic, like a crusader, or a crazy fanatic, or an evil worshipper with reversed spells. And maybe there wasn't even a god or force answering to their faith or praying, and it's just that their faith is so strong it becomes their source of magic.

Just got my dice set and I love them. Great collaboration.

In my campaign, we have a non-god cleric. I worked with the player and we decided that ultimately, clerics were more about faith and devotion, so a specific deity wasn't strictly necessary. Instead, they went with a dad-style character whose magic comes from his love for his wife and kids. Sets up lots of good tension for the sessions in a way that feels classically cleric, without a god.

On the topic of the Sun being a deity, I have a convention of giving each star system with life in it a solar jinushigami (essentially, that system's Ameterasu) that is the patron of unspecified sun worshipers.

I'll just copy what I wrote in the community post yesterday: A lot of people seem to be hanging their answer on the class' name - "cleric". Forgetting that D&D classes are (or should) rarely be known as distinct metaphysical entities in their settings, meaning while we call the class a cleric, people in a setting would neither know of the cleric class specifically, let alone the name we use for it; And on top of that the "cleric" name and the worship of gods is only _flavour,_ not part of the class' mechanics. Flavour that can, is and should be often changed out for different flavour depending on character and setting. Flavour is important - you need _something_ if you want your D&D to have a narrative -, but the choice of flavour is not integral. A lot of clerics will worship gods, since the class lends itself to that idea very well, but insisting every cleric should is both a failure of imagination and an unreasonable, controlling edict upon your fellow players. I'd even venture to call it slightly toxic. Sure, if that's an important part of the setting, you can insist on it, but insisting it be part of _every_ setting your group plays in, let alone every setting _any_ group plays in? That's toxic.

I think if you don’t have a god, you’re kinda missing out because that could be a great role playing opportunity! Not that I would stop a player if they had a good story justification! Edit: After seeing everyone’s thoughts, I think I feel even more strongly that the Divine spellcasters should have a truly unique magic that differentiates them from a warlock. It would be cool if divine magic could not be counterspelled or even be called magic. I always thought it was really cool that despite a wizards godly power, they can’t cast healing spells. I like that healing/resurrection is different somehow and it makes sense that this requires nothing short of a miracle. This makes the bard unique too as the only arcane spellcaster that can heal, I’ve always thought that symbolized picking up holy songs and words of protection from divine texts. I also think the divine spellcasters should have clearly defined relationships with their deities to enhance the flavor and theme. In 5e i think paladins have much stronger flavor than clerics because they take an oath and have to adhere to it. I would like to see more mechanical/ role playing elements involved with being a cleric (ie the powers of the Rot domain are useless over flowing water, the followers of the sun domain wear gold masks when they cleanse the undead, nature domain clerics grow mushrooms etc.) This question makes me yearn for a time when a cleric was badass simply for being the best at fighting undead, rather than all the zany subclasses that overshadow the core features of the class, but maybe I’m being a bit of a dnd boomer about that.

"Crom!..." -Conan the Barbarian

Mr Bob I would LOVE to see a full length DnD history documentary from you. Your voice very relaxing and you presentation perfect for the format! Your knowledge is seemingly pretty vast and I feel the quality would be much higher than other docs I've seen. I would gladly donate towards the cause if need be. =)

These sorts of videos are absolutely my favorite things to watch on RU-vid. Old D&D (and other TTRPG) lore is just so enthralling to me. Professor Dungeon Master over at the Dungeon Craft channel did a series of these a couple years back, and they’re just awesome. Keep it up, Bob! I’ll definitely continue watching, liking, and sharing. 😊

In the Forgotten Realms, I definitely think Clerics need to worship gods. The power doesn't come from inside the Clerics, it is granted from an outside force. The rain cannot decide to grant a particular person power, at least in traditional D&D settings. Perhaps in other settings, everything in nature not only has life, but also consciousness to decide. In older editions, taking a strong stance on the war between chaos and order might have been fine, because the gods that exist may have enlisted your help even without worshipping them. But I would bet a lot of players who said "no" also don't want to take a side in a cosmic conflict. However, divine power may flow differently in different settings. And I say this as an atheist in real life: having to choose a god to access divine power doesn't seem like a big ask to me. It isn't offensive to me; I am already playing a game with magic, psychic powers, and realms of order and chaos. If anything, I would like a way to do a little healing with arcane magic; artificers in 4e had some ability to do this, so that'd fit the bill. But I'm not picky, though; it's not something I need. But very good video showing the best of both sides.

I wouldn't say that clerics NEED to have a god or even gods to serve. After all it is just a class, but a lot of the abilities are derived from having a supernatural being or greater force at work within the cleric. It definitely comes down to the player and how they wanna roleplay it. However, as a DM I really enjoy the aspects of having a god to help engage the player in the world. Maybe they worship a god that's banned by the kingdom, or a lesser god that no one knows. There's room for interesting PCs that are a part of a cult to this persons god, or have secret smuggling routes for totems and holy items for their god.

12:26 that just means that deities and domains are not strictly bound, and that you can assign whatever gods you want to whatever domain.

Very nicely done - you're enjoyment spilled over the ether!

Great video! Minor correction at 9:25 or so: the Druid class first appears in OD&D supplement III, Eldritch Wizardry, in 1976, and is later brought along into AD&D a few years later.

Cleric needs something divine to grant them spells: a saint, a powerfull angel, a demigon, a god or a whole pantheon.

This is awesome. I badly need the druid class and the origin of the whole "no metal armor or shields".

Had a friend in our party that played as an agnostic cleric. It became a running bit that we had to stop at every local temple in case she might get sign from the divine. The whole party would crowd in and just be like….uh… you feelin anything yet??….

I’ve been playing since the original, both as player and DM, and the discussion over specific gods for paladins and clerics has never came up. It’s just generally implied they served whatever god that may be over that realm, in their alignment.

In my game, the cleric asks their god to cast spells for them. They lose their magic abilities if they get on the god's bad side because they can't ask for magic anymore. I think this kind of makes sense with them using CHA as their modifier.

Does a cleric need a god? Several official game worlds said "no". Athas (Dark Sun) clerics received their powers from the elements or the Sorcerer-Kings, and Mystara/OD&D received their powers from Immortals...which are kind of like gods, but a bit different (and more limited in power).

One of my favorite clerics is Kristen Applebees whose entire arc is about wether or not she serves a diety and/or which one. So, I'm definitely in the camp of clerics not particularly needing a diety at all times. Religious trauma played out through a character is fun, unique and a good way to process those sorts of feelings.

I kinda like the rule of Clerics worship a God, Paladins worship an ideal. It makes the difference between them distinct even when their roles overlap. Okay so after listening to the rest of the video, sorry panel from hell was today. I still think that a Cleric needs a God, or at least a Relgion I didn't make that distinction before and someone below mentioned it yes a Relgion makes sense to me too, for them to be a Cleric. The whole ideals thing muddles the line between Cleric and Paladin too much imo. Also as far as homebrewing D&D,as someone else mentioned, I feel like that's a different conversation and my analysis of it is only for D&D in its base setting or any other generic fantasy setting that doesn't require the classes to be changed for it to make sense. If you start bringing up homebrew settings like Final Fantasy that's a different conversation all together.

I really enjoy videos like these that explore the history of our great hobby. I had watched DM It All's videos on Fighter, Rogue, and Monk, so it was nice to see Cleric here.

Sounds like the Cleric as we know it is different then basically a paladin that could not use it's two handed sword it started life as.

I now want to play a Trickery domain cleric whose catchphrase is "Bold of you to assume my god is real."

It depends on how high-divinity your world is. In my game, the gods are nearly silent, so a cleric could doesn’t need a god at all to recieve power. In a higher divinity game, that cleric would get word from the god giving them power, and then they would have a god whether they like it or not.

I think I responded to your original poll. My answer is, "Yes, unless the player has a good reason not to." Like, godless clerics in D&D, I feel, should be anomalous. Not necessarily unheard of, but definitely rare and strange. If my player wants to play a godless cleric, they have to sell me on it. They need to tell me why their character would take a more difficult, more obfuscated path to channeling divine magic.

Great video and exploration on role play oportunities

I see two reasons to allow a cleric not to choose a god, of which the first in my opinion overshadows all arguments against the opposite: 1. A Player feels uncomfortable with fictional worth ship. Be it an Atheist being uncomfortable with worth ship itself or a religious person being uncomfortable with having "false" or "fake" believe (As they might feel it being disrespectful to their own beliefs). 2. There is a Precedent already. Paladins used to need a god, but now they don't, so I don't see any reason why Clerics shouldn't get the same treatment. Especially since religion irl isn't necessarily reliant on gods.

I believe Squeaks thinks she a God not a Nobel

The way it works in my homebrew world is that literally anyone can use divine "magic" *as long as they have 100% conviction that they can use it*. This of course only works with groups who are focused on RP over optimization as this fact cannot really be known in-universe. Various religions, cults, philosophies and etc. merely provide some basis to people for *believing* that they can wield divine magic, a Paladin does not get power directly from his oath, but from his belief in the power of his oath for example. This also means that some individuals can become powerful divine casters without any conventional and understood in-universe reason, gaining their conviction from madness, sheer power of weaponized egoism or even simple naivete. As I said, this doesn't work for every group, but for me and my friends this way of handling divine "magic" has worked extraordinarily well, both for worldbuilding and for roleplay. Oh and divine sorcerers don't need conviction, they are simply born with the ability to use divine magic like any other. Although it does mean that some divine sorcerers actually don't have any divine blood in them at all and instead gain their abilities from *believing* that they are divine sorcerers.

Bob, you summed it up perfectly. “A cleric is NOT a paladin” If you have no god, you shouldn’t have powers, and without powers, you’re just a paladin. Ok? Ok. Glad we all understand what makes a cleric a cleric and not just a knight.

Your answer was my immediate answer, glad to be in good company

I do ask my players to have some sort of interactable entity to deify... I wouldn't devote (pun intended) so much time on the deity itself but I want their Divine Intervention to come from somewhere (someone?); whereas with warlocks I do make a point to try and incorporate them into my campaigns for the warlock to have interactions, however way possible... (even goolocks can have visions or something, even if the patron doesn't even know they exist...) this gives flavor and a sense of existence to the player, a world beyond their pc, imo... but yeah, should cleric have deities? up to the gm I say; I ask for them for RP and to make sense of a class feature

Really interesting video!! 😁

I love how dungeonworld does this: you create your own god with character Creation! This Always creates a much more interesting character than just "choose one of these"

omg my comment was your favourite!! that makes me so happy lmao

Faith is the requirement. It doesn't have to be in a deity or Pantheon. It can be alignment, philosophy, or force. The common argument is that non-clerics have faith. Well, non-paladins make promises. Non-warlocks make deals. Non-wizards read books. Non-barbarians get angry. A clerics Faith is strong enough to serve as a divine conduit. You just gotta believe hard enough.

Our house rules allowed that the more work that the player put into creating the religion, the more flavorful feats and abilities would be offered.

The very concept of an antitheist cleric being in existence in a reality where gods exist, and yet has a similar power to those devoted to those gods, is intriguing. I think another reason for why this is a hot topic is likely due to the rebellious nature of players, me included, that don't want flavor text to force the character into a narrow box. I think piety is a good role play trait, but to bind mechanics to the behavior of a character is a quick way suck the fun out of playing them. It's also why they got rid of alignment based stuff. What exactly separates the warlock from the cleric on a flavor basis? Can there simultaneously be a cleric and warlock of the same God? Or is warlock stuck with dealing with demigods and dead gods? To me it's kinda like the difference between a religion and a cult. One is just far older, and has had more time to spread.

I think if you asked "Do PCs need parents?" You'd have a similar response.

I’ve always found it difficult to solely recognize one god in a polytheist universe. As a cleric you choose a domain, you should dedicate mostly to one god in your setting wich is compatible with it, but the other gods will still be recognized by you.

Great stuff friend 👏 👍

I agree with a lot of the points raised, however I do think that we need to maintain a conceptual distinction between clerics, warlocks, and paladins to justify their separation into different classes, though it may only be a vague one

Hey Bob. This was an amazing which was both entertaining and informative. Never had a player not take a jog God and play a cleric. And as I haven't looked on a deep dive into the rules I just assumed that the deity was necessary

I would say Clerics needed a God, as they are similar to Warlocks in that they get all their power from a higher source and may lose it if they stray too far away from their intended path. If Cleric only required some level of faith in anything, then that's a paladin basically. Paladins are based on the unwavering faith and oath in their own cause or the cause of whom they follow. If we let Clerics regularly revoke the Gods and simply have their own version faith, that would take away the key and very interesting difference between the Paladin and Cleric flavor-wise.

Grest video, and thanks for providing captions. Could you perhaps see if you could place 'quotes' on screen a smidge higher so they're not obscured by the captions? Niche request I know but figured I'd mention it. As for my thought, Clerics should have a God with at least elemental or creative capacity and they should be loyal to them. Although they don't need to be defined against warlocks I think this helps differentiate the two.

Great video!

Thank you for this deep dive. I love Clerics and greatly appreciate learning their history. Do you recommend any other information of content?

I think the question whether or not clerics need gods is more related to the setting the game takes place in rather than the cleric itself. Personally, I'm of the opinion that clerics do get their powers from the gods (in most of my campaigns) since that is very thematic. If clerics can get their powers through conviction or whatever you want to replace gods with, why are they tied to divine magic in the first place? If you want a healer without ties to divinity you can play a bard, or if you want to just blast things apart with magic you can roll up a sorcerer who gets their magic through their bloodline. It kind of erodes the identity of magical classes if their sources of power are all the same or kind of wishy washy, but in the end its up to the DMs and their players to decide what works for them and I'm not going to hold this over anyone.

I don’t think they need a god but I love playing them as needing gods. 😊

Brilliant note to end on! For my games I have a Cleric who is essentially writing the laws of the newborn god they worship. The actions they take and favours they ask of their god are affecting the development of this god's identity. I also have a player who plays a wizard with 8 Intelligence. And I have a warlock who's patron is the creater of all of reality and the gods themselves. I love flipping things on their head if it makes sense and it's fun :3

No wonder none of us can agree on alignment. It's determination or definition has kept changing with each edition

Cleric is my favorite class, has been since the first time i played one. I have played many of them and played them both ways (w and wo deities) both are viable options. But my opinion is that clerics are most fun when they have a deity. I feel it really leans into the intention of the class, and having established churchs provide infinite oppertunities for quests or help. Not to mention i have had countless hours of fun attempting to convert my party to my religion. Ive even had a few whole parties convert and you tall about shinanigins when you get a whole party on the same page. Overall i feel like the diety is not nessacery but should be encouraged.

Great topic had a laugh good fun as always, Later Bob

I've always found the insistence on blunt weapons in order not to spill blood strange. Even a punch can cause a nosebleed or knocked out tooth, did people really think a mace or warhammer wouldn't cause bleeding upon shattering a skullcap?

One of my favorite 3e characters I ever played was a Cleric/Barbarian multiclass who worshipped the god of bears and used the Strength domain.

Are deities/gods ever named in DnD?

Personally, I like the idea that both clerics and paladins need gods, otherwise they have no access to magic. I also prefer a no or limited martial weapons limit for clerics. clerics as holy men with greater direct divine access, powers, and paladins as fighting holy men but limited in magic due to the sins of fighting.

Glad to see you actually delved into the history and showed how Clerics, as originally introduced, were essentially a spellcaster/fighter combo class halfway between your fighter and mage. Personally, I think the 5e Warlock should entirely replace the Cleric class, as it requires the interaction with the patron that the Cleric class pays lip service too, but does not enforce mechanically. There is too much baggage about Clerics just being the Healer, whereas the Warlock patron goal accomplisher is far more along the lines of what Clerics used to be flavor-wise.

Sertrous taught us we don't need the gods for divine power, they need us. All hail Sertrous!

Do rogues need to wear cloaks? Do barbarians have to have a big weapon? Well… no… you can do whatever you want dnd. That doesn’t mean it’s more fun. Maybe that’s just me, but the vibe of dnd is half of what makes it work.

I say they need to worship *something* what that is, depends.

A lot seems to depend on the personal feelings of the DM. As a player and an atheist (small a), playing clerics used to be hard for me to get excited about. Too much religious encumberance. However, this got tons easier when I played a dwarven light cleric who worshipped “Rudolf the Red”. I had so much fun using stone mastery to carve small dwarven statues and altars (essentially modern garden gnomes) to leave around and advocating joy and giving to children, that this was a great character to play, with an easy ethos to proselytize.

Bob, you should talk about 4e. the community appears to be growing and undergoing a bit of a rennaisance

As a DM, I see it as flavor. God, no god. I don't care

My concern is not whether my character needs a god based on their class, but based solely on the character themselves and that has so far been a yes. I am a very spiritual person, I enjoy learning about real world faiths, and I like exploring that through my roleplay as well.

In my campaigns, players pick the class they want to play for the abilities and don't even bother writing a back story lol. They don't even know warlocks are supposed to have a patron.

Yes. I think it adds flavor and things worldbuilders get to work with.