The Truth about Heat Pumps: Debunking the Myth. 

55c doesnt seem hot enough to kill and stop bacteria growth the system will get clogged up

So they’ve changed the regs to make the giant radiators of heat pump installs look normal. Space is at a premium in most older houses in the UK hence the popularity of combi boilers allowing removal of tanks to free up living space. In my opinion heat pumps have a place in new homes designed for them but as a retrofit too expensive and too room intensive, wait for better tech.

I think people are reading too much into the size of the rads. A modern new-build wouldn't need such large rads, and the ground floor would typically be UFH.

That means the return will be below dew point and condensing boilers will waste energy

@@rsole65 I agree. It's all so farcical. Seems to me if you want to be green you better have deep pockets. To me, that is fundamentally wrong. I want to be green but I can't afford it. And that probably applies to most of us. Sadly, those like me and many others also, are slaves to oil and gas, and ironically we are the ones who can least afford it.

Same over here in Germany. Since the beginning of the energy crisis so called "experts" took over the maket with their cash grab methods. Everyone, who did not do their research on heat pumps gets scammed most likely. But once it's done correctly, oh boy, get ready to safe some big €€€, I just got back 500 € from my electricity company because I predicted 3500 kWh and only used 2200 kWh.

Your a brave ♀️.. If nobody understand in your area, then find a hydraulic engineer, these machines are actually hot fluid pumps and need careful mathematical calculations and unrestricted flow, both are critical for SCOP of 3.5 or higher.. Good luck 😊

Far more bang for your buck than what? Good insulation is a prerequisite of installing a heat pump based system anyway so it isn't a case of either or but after those improvements you suggest have been made. I think Simon covered it, alot of care should be taken over the system design and heat loss calcs to avoid dissappointment.

Replacing windows in the house especially if you’re going to go to the high U value triple glaze plus the proper airtight installation and hopefully water leak proof will cost just as much as a heat pump if not more. Air sealing is your biggest bang for the buck and the simplest and cheapest. The proper insulation on a new build or upgrading insulation should’ve been something that was tackled long ago in the first place before the heat pump installation. Then with those considerations out of the way and properly implemented you would need a smaller heat pump costing you less because you have already maximize your insulation and air sealing and prove it and document it by doing a whole house blower door test.

Right. They installed a wooping 17kW HP. Customer has a very big house or a very old house. Step 1. insulate the house to a modern 30w/m2 heat load (at worst conditions) Step 2. upgrade to properly calculated underfloor heating throught the house. Step 3. choose an easy to install yourself monoblock HP (4-6kW)= 4000 euro and a separate easy to install 100 liter HP boiler= 1000 euro.

@@conr3x step 3 10:1(or more) modulation Gas condensing boiler @1000E :P

Spot on! Fabric first is the phrase

It's probably a good system for the southern US, not so good in northern Europe though

@@pedazodetorpedo IMO not so as we used a split system for a good few years before moving elsewhere and really miss the system in summer or winter.

@@pedazodetorpedo works fine in Canada. Hot summers and very cold Winters.

Up here in New York there pushing heat pumps now.

@@ericdunn6232 The Canadian Government has explicitly stated heat pumps are appropriate for the entire country. That _really_ says a lot. 🇨🇦

ohh, thank you

@@UrbanPlumbers what was the total cost of the installation including parts?

Hey Simon, as usual absolutely stunning install. The work is a true master piece and I know you installed this to someone spec. However shame about the design and products that have been used here , the radiators are truly and shockingly ugly I would sooner have a poster of the elephantman on the wall. Cost for this was probably £25k if this is what the government is encouraging people to have ? We urgently need a new government !!!(I know of an estate that had these fitted and thus far winter cost £1500.00 per quarter , they have to be left on 24/7 .... this size probably £2000.00 per quatre...) And finally I hope who the person who sold this to the customer advised them that , after the install there's no going back to there gas boiler...cuz that will be the next thing this incompetent government will make law...people you have been warned ⚠️ Don't be fooled.......a master piece of workmanship Simon as always 😉

Just wondering could put it Out There... the Make and Model of Robust Circulation Pump you used to pump that seriously Hot water around the Circuit...as I'm sure many folks would have an Interest in that Pump....I have been told "Stuart Turner " Brass/ Bronze pumps do hold up well as Booster Pumps... But haven't had experience with their Circulation Pumps ...Great Upload...

@@TheLegend-nx3mm nonsense

When we stop the drafts ventilating our old homes, we are going to need to get the vapour barriers right to avoid rotting them out from the inside by trapping moisture.

Couldn’t agree more. The future (well the near future) is a thermostat at 18 degrees and a blanket! Also turning condensing boilers down to 60 degrees. Small changes like this will have an immediate effect and whilst heat pumps and renewable energy are the future... we have a long way to go in the meantime. The government should be investing in insulation and nuclear power rather than giving grants to heat pumps companies

@@lewisjones5067 Having to sit with a blanket and gloves on in your lounge is more 18th than 21st century. You’re right about the nuclear power though.

@@AndrewHelgeCox why not just use soffit & ridge vents as American homes do?

@@AndrewHelgeCox I agree. I think we're going to see a huge number of problems over the next 20 years because of the big step up in insulation.

Yeah, I noticed that too. That must a significant fraction of the cost of the entire installation.

People have diffrent priorities mate. Strange how £30K car does not raise any eybrows - but a £10-15K heat pump creates a mass hysteria.

All so true. I still enjoy the industry but there is no question that the push toward completely refitting houses regardless of if it's the best choice or not is just pushing people into needless debt.

@@ItsFriscoBaby no one is forcing anyone to install a heat pump. The opposite is happening, people are being encouraged to go that route with government grants.

@@UrbanPlumbers I didn't say they were being forced. What I sad was they are being pushed in a direction regardless of its suitability which is exactly what's happening.

that's a bunch of copper

Here is a real world example, after a year worth of use… ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-duORuM3Tfp4.html

Yes, installing an air to liquid heat pump is just silly. You will have to be a plumber to get that to make sense. Air-air units are easy to install, a lot cheaper and they will make a big difference. Half of Norway has them to heat the house during winter, and some years it will get hot enough in summer to use it as air con for maybe two days.

@@quadcopter Air-to-anything is fine for warm countries like Australia or Norway - well, probably excluding Svalbard. But it the temp regularly drops below -20C, the only way to go (apart from burning fossil) is geothermal.

Yes when it gets extremely cold then heat pumps become less useful although if Norway is using them they are probably fine for most of the world especially if you have some old type electrical fan ones for the days it does get crazy cold. I also opted for lots of split systems instead of one connected large unit so if one breaks all the others still work. I'm in a hot climate so mine are used 90 percent for cooling. I've never seen these water based ones before and I'd expect the cost would be insane. We do have hot water system based ones in Australia that utilise heat pumps although not many people have them because they are quite expensive and from what I've heard more prone to failure than the simple kettle style ones which are cheap although cost a lot more In electricity.if you know the channel technology connections he has recently done a few good episodes on heat pumps, apparently they are very uncommon in the USA which surprised me as they have heat pump air conditioners but don't bother making them reverse cycle. In Australia they can pretty much all do both heat and cooling.

Yeah I can just buy a mini split unit for around 1500, install it my self and keep gas for hot water and emergency heat. And you get Aircon in the summer as a bonus

@@jmi5969 I really don't know anything about this subject, but I have never seen ANYONE say "a warm country like Norway" before. Are you sure you meant Norway?

Yes. But that’s ground source. Not beset by the same issues as air source.

Upgrading the fabric first should save money on the heat pump installation, but in simple decarbonisation terms the heat pump can be done a lot more quickly (and more cheaply) than the fabric improvements, so even though it's a bit inefficient there is an increasingly good case for just whacking in the heatpump first, then fixing the rest as finance allows, for the vast majority of people who can;t afford to do the whole damn thing in one blitz. Although mortgage-financing for retrofit may change that.

The fact you have to STILL suppliment it during winter kinda proves it has FAILED and WASN'T "worth it". The whole point of these systems is you shouldn't NEED to suppliment them at all with ANYTHING else - especially not a wood burner lol. Or at least that's what they make you believe with the adverts and publicity they get constantly - "it can make heat even in the winter and cool/heat during the summer".

*LITERALLY THE HOTTEST HOUSE* I have ever been in was in the UK in winter with a heat pump system. I was fixing some kitchen cabinets for a neighbour and honestly, I could not breathe, it was 32ºC, I think the woman must have had a medical condition - YES this was a new build and it was installed from new with the house. But anyone that says they don't work is talking BS. Maybe badly installed or cheap systems don't work. But that's NOT to say heat pumps don't work.

@@piccalillipit9211 if it was her or his wish ... halleluja ... our under floor heating is self regulating thru the first law of thermodynamics. As soon as the airtemp. Inside the house reaches the surface temp of the ground at around 23-24 °C, as ex. Thru the sun, Our system shuts itself off ... physicaly ... But if you wanna have a sauna we can make it one yes.

@@locomotive1213 - I only know it was a heat pump cos I asked why it was SO damn hot and she proudly told me it was a heat pump system - as if that in itself explained it. She showed me the equipment room where there were two MASSIVE tanks of water that were the heat reservoirs. They supplemented the ground source heating in the winter with heat extracted in the summer. I don't think a normal person would need these as a normal person does not live at literally tropical temperatures. I don't know anything about heat pump systems, but I know for sure the idea they dont work as a technology is rubbish. Maybe this system cost £50k - I dont know, but it sure as heck worked and at £3,000 a year for gas as many in the UK are now paying it does not look THAT expensive at £50k, especially on a new build.

@@piccalillipit9211 ah well ... i come from germany so i dont know the relation to the costs of other heating systems in GB... i just know you guys earn much more than we do. when i was in school, every teacher told us we get 3 times the money in GB. Our one family home system costs around 15.000€ for the heatpump system . gas heater systems as example are around 8.000-10.000€ but since the psycho german goverment forces us to use a specific amount of "renewable energy" when homes are newly build you have to install a solar or PV system in addition to that, so the total prices ends up way over 15.000€.

@@locomotive1213 - OH I dont know - I have not lived in the UK for a long time, but the wages seem pretty crappy to me over there now. I was a salesperson in 2002 on £65k a year and not the average is £32k in 2022... But they keep voting for a "conservative" government and they keep getting poorer - what can you do??? I pulled the figure £50k out of think air purely based on the fact it was a large £1 million pluss house NOT a normal house for normal people. Personally, I think €15k for a heating system is an appropriate amount of money if you get 25 years of life out of it and it is affordable to run. We are obsessed with everything being cheap cos we live in a disposable society. I make bespoke historical men's clothing. In 1930 a Singer sewing machine was nearly a year's wages. Today you can buy one new for €50 - but it will be in the landfill in 3 months. Professionals like me either buy the 1930's Singer or we spend €5,000 on a professional modern machine cos NOTHING domestic-made today will do the job... The point of my tangent is we have been trained to think of EVERYTHING as disposable - so people have a heart attack at the thought of a €15k heating system. Its €1.66 a day if it lasts 25 years... Oddly the same people will spend €50k on a car without batting an eyelid...

thanks mate, great that so many people are doing the course and improvding the industry.

running cost of gas is usually lower because gas is cheap as electricty is taxed more heavily than gas. This will have to change.

They did. Solar panels and batteries were already in place before the heat pump installation. The system pay back with current energy prices is surprisingly short and saving quite substantial At the time we did not know what the energy market would do!

@@UrbanPlumbers what’s the payback?

@@coooooool12342 what's the payback on a new 20K kitchen? Or a new 20K car? Although this should be cheaper to run than gas and the system should last twice the time of an average gas boiler, it is not done for the payback. This technology saves energy as it uses up to 80% less energy than a gas boiler or direct electric heating and creates much less pollution. Your payback is cleaner air and less CO2 plus some money saved on bills. Obviously, there is a lot of badly installed air source (as there is loads of badly installed boilers) - on heat pumps problems are more pronounced and obvious though.

don't worry - he's in london - the owners will be rich AF ;-) I bet mr urban plumber does pretty well for himself 🙂

Cheaper in the States.

the boiler might last for 50+ years, at that. or, a good 20 years anyway. these heat pumps are so complicated with digital controllers and fragile parts, compressors, capacitors, refrigerant leaks, they are prone to having problems, they're outdoors, and they only last half as long. they're a little bit less expensive than a boiler to operate, because they only use a relatively small amount of electricity, but that's their only real advantage.

plus they're just plain ugly anyway

The £700 pump was only because the cylinder was in the basement.

@@dinendale666 ok, so that’s knocked it down to £19.3k!

Couldn't agree more. I watched this video and I'm just thinking, damn how much did that cost, damn how much does THAT cost, holy crap 2 of those massive things I've got 3 rooms that would need the same thing how much would that cost!! and where the hell do I put the giant tank! I'm gonna have a gas combi boiler until the day the gov bans them and my last installed combi before that can't be repaired anymore, after that I'll probably just get my shower replaced by an electric one and freeze in the winter I guess lol

@@lewbaker I’m gonna stick my neck out and say we’ll still be using gas boilers after 2050!

@@lewbaker a couple decades from now using gas will cost so much that you will happily spend the extra on doing things electrically. I would not be surprised if direct electric heating would turn out to be cheaper than gas, at this rate.

lucky you, our electric costs are more like £5,000 for the year, with this very Heat pump installed into a new build house all callcs done for the RHI grant. very efficient and cheap in the summer months but seems very expensive in the winter, maybe more efficient compared to gas but with gas being cheaper per KWH than electric makes it a very expensive way of heating our house.

Too late, this retard we have Mark drakeford of Wales once heat pumps installed everywhere by 2030, it will be interesting to see how these tower blocks of flats are going to look, we're going backwards now you need another place for your storage cylinder, we took these out to replace with combi boiler, and we also had an immersion heater, also once this comes into force and you don't comply by having heat pump, you won't be able to sell buy or remortgage your property, the property would have to be certified with a heat pump and this is in the manifesto, these things don't work they are very noisy insufficient and the running costs are phenomenal, controversy to popular belief anybody can go and buy a boiler and fit themselves, these things would have to be fitted by a registered company at a cost of in excess of 15 Grand,

One of my customers was paying less than a grand a year for electric and about 1200 a year for oil. At the end of 2020 he binned the oil for a heat pump, his electric bill for the last year was over 5 grand, with the recent price rise and assuming that there are no further increases this year he'll be looking at around 7 to 8 thousand pounds, that's £160.00 per week and the place is freezing on cold days.

Depends on the location. I deleted oil burner, because it costs $300/MWh. Natural gas after war in ukraine $130/MWh. Wooden pellets/firewood $60/MWh. Soil not compatible with ground source heat pump. Electricty about $170/MWh. Gas and oil expected to go even higher. Air source heat pump is the only option which will cost the same as firewood but without hassle and smoke.

@@edfx don't be ridiculous, you're forgetting one thing, the installation of this piece of shite, in excess of about 20 grand, we fitted about 25 of these units last year, then you got the maintenance on them, the people that ring us to say they very noisy, they are huge and unsightly, not everybody has an extra room in their house or a basement and certainly don't have room in the garden, you'll be dead before you see any profit, they are an absolute joke here in the UK.

@@1971dave looked it up. kerosene about $130/MWh, electricity $300/MWh. Yeah, looks like investment that would cost you more and more as the time goes by.

What debate?

@@keyserxx Heat pumps...

Flats should go on communal heating systems - it will make the cost and maintenance affordable.

£15 - 20K

Hi and thank you for the comment. I find it hard find and to buy your product. What is the best supplier / website please?

Lol vested interest much?! Pahahaha and can't even get their wonderful product. Smh

Heat pumps are designed to capture the additional air temperature from outside… great during the summer months if you have a pool. Expensive during the winter months (when you need it most) unless you have a solar or economy 7 solution in place. ThermalPV & localised phase change storage is a much better solution for most domestic properties… & cheaper!

it's an industry that will reap the rewards of government subsidies; whether it's affordable or not.

Yeah, forget the planet we just want to see return on investment amiright?

@@PKWeaver74 no you’re not right. Cutting down on energy usage helps the planet. My focus is on making my house more energy efficient. New windows, additional insulation, having everything serviced regularly, just a few initiatives. I’m even considering panels as we have a south facing roof. But something that costs too much and still needs old tech to ensure hot water is not something that I’m going to adopt until the tech improves. I hope I haven’t pulled the rug on your smart arrested comment but hey, some of us think in more than sound bites😅

@@iangelling No, you haven't. I'm in the same boat as you, doing exactly the same thing but we still need pioneers who can afford to be the early adopters on principle, then economies of scale can reduce prices. I'm not opposed to what you said, just throwing one of my sound bite thoughts out there to agitate for a response 😉

He mentioned in his comments previously £15 - £20K

why do people hate big rads? I love them!

@@UrbanPlumbers Can't do much else with a wall covered in radiator. Can't put a shelf there, a cupboard a picture, wouldn't necessarily even want to put a chair in front of it. Probably fine for people with giant mansions but for the average, tiny UK home it's ridiculous. I'd like to see a domestic install of a High Temp Heat Pump (yes I know they are not as efficient but still more so than a simple immersion heater).

@@SardiPax many years ago when I was an adobe builder in New Mexico I built large vertical radiators into the walls of some homes to give out heat to spaces both sides of the wall. Built in rather than hung on is a possible solution. This is where joined up thinking between home designers, home builders and specialised trades ought to come together. I first saw the heat both sides concept used in Quarry Hill flats in Leeds. They were built in the 1930's. They also had a waste disposal system that carried organic waste from the sink to a large communal boiler to be burnt to heat water. In eastern Europe power Stations don't have cooling towers they send the hot water to heat apartments and other buildings or to aid industrial processes. A lot of good ideas lost to make individual houses more profitable for the builder.

Yes, they need a bit more knowledge to install though as compared to a gas or oil boiler

@@UrbanPlumbers If you accept that heat pumps work, what's with the clickbait dishonest title? Heatpumps are just reverseable air con units. Simple thermodynamics with proven engineering. Suggesting they don't work in the title is a lie.

lol, shut your mouth mate.

Plus 2000w wind turbines if you live in any sort of windy area.. Our property in Scotland has added wind and OMG it works through the night and basically we use nearly NO grid electricty

Heat pumps is exactly what will stop the current lunacy of burning fossil fuels at 80% efficiency to heat our homes.

Mr Ross does not know what he is talking about. Fossil fuels are most definitely on their way out. As they bloody well should.

@@user-kc1tf7zm3b Au contraire. I know my subject very well. I have a background in energy both by degree and professionally. I totally agree that fossil fuels are (and should) be on the way out. My point is that current policy is utterly nuts and counterproductive hence my comment on China. Check out China’s coal consumption vs the rest of the world.

@@ianross225 Bloody hell! What do you damn well expect from the country with the world’s largest population of 1.4 billion? The United States does not even have half a billion, at only 330 million. However, the US has emitted _most_ of the world’s CO2 emissions at 399 billion tonnes (25%) over the centuries, which is double China’s cumulative total of 200 billion tonnes (12.7%). China and India are certainly entitled to their own economic development and prosperity just like the United States. My ethnic Indian law studies teacher made a point of this years ago when I was in high school. A little intellectual consistency would go a long way, Mr Ross. Lest you come off as an out and out hypocrite. Be more British and balanced in your outlook. 🇬🇧

@@user-kc1tf7zm3b Wow, you’re quite touchy.

Correct, in the UK we have a lot of buildings that are plumbed for wet systems, so its considerably easier, and generally more acceptable to customers to convert these systems. Of course you could install a mini-split in very room but for the average British person they'd be what the hell is that thing on the wall. I'd like to see more systems using fan assisted radiators - but they are a bit of a maintenance hassle, filters need cleaning out regularly.

I'm Dutch and the default for a long time was to have heating only. Provided by heated water systems with radiators. No cooling in the house. But the radiators are placed so that natural convection takes place, most of the time under windows so to also 'shield' from cold air flows. As you can deduct by now, it's all setup for a cold climate. However, with time things did change. Central heating is still very common. But a lot of homes have floor heating now for comfort reasons. (Almost all homes arr multi floor with floor heating only on the main floor) This setup is easy to convert to a hybrid system with low temperature floor heating, and 'nornal' heating on other floors and to use for hot tap water. And a lot of homes do have split airco units now for more comfort during summer time, but those outside units provide noise pollution so they aren't that liked that much. Another thing is that building regulations dictate a minimum of fresh air that needs to come from the outside. This is a massive heat leak and also a major source of discomfort for many homes. The old central heating system with radiators under the window did solve this (house is pressured down by a central air ventilation system, the windows have inlets for incoming fresh air flow) But with time this got a large overhaul in newly build houses with heat exchangers and no inlets on windows anymore, combined with better house isolation in general. But this reduced the inhouse air quality too much. New solutions that solve these problems properly while being green and such aren't that wide spread. Because these need separate inflow and outflow ducts for air and our building styles don't allow for easy retrofitting. A good heating and cooling system with good ventilation is just hard to fit in a home. And retrofitting is even harder.

Yes he only just understand s his own system but not fully ! I bet he doesn't even Label the system they never work and rely on immersion heater or gas water heater backup .

Also heat pumps are slow and can take days to respond to cold snaps

What the gov will do is stop the spares for our combis, so within 10 years you have to buy heat pumps. The same with electric cars forced into buying them it's a form of communist gov.

Have you noticed the gov implement laws that nobody wants, like Boris concreting over shale gas then digging it up. Same with oil shut down the rigs oooppps open them up again.

@@frederickbowdler8169 Thats so wrong mate. I have infloor heating with a 300 meter energywell and 10 kw heatpump.

Another option is a high temp heat pump, that can get the water to a much higher temperature. Those work with existing heating installations... but they are pricey, and more expensive to run. Personally I have good hopes for replacing natural gas with green hydrogen. They're doing experiments with this in a neighborhood in the north of the Netherlands, using the existing gas network to distribute hydrogen instead. Household heaters and gas ranges can be adapted to run on hydrogen without issues.

1870 house, roof 100mm insulation. That’s it.

Thank you for replying!

@@UrbanPlumbers then why on earth are these systems being installed without insulation being prior taken care of?!?

@@britexpat_l33t 1870s house, good chance inside and outside is listed so they probably couldn't insulate the walls, only floor void and roof. Then relying on the thickness of the walls as thermal mass and high enough R value to cope. Not ideal but unfortunately this is one of the stumbling points of much of the UK housing stock. Solid wall terraced houses which can't have outside insulation fitted or internal due to room size limitations or listed/ conservation status, and those that have had insulation fitted if not fitted with a vapour barrier have bricks that basically start turning back to clay in some cases.

thank you for watching!

Even ths govt is not going to mandate a return to gas boilers. Even conservative (apart from the morons in the 'Net Zero Scrutiny Group') recognise that gas is on the way out.

£2000 a quarter, so at £0.15p a unit (we're talking the past here), that's 13,000KWh of input, now assuming you're getting an utterly atrocious CoP of 2x that means 26,000kWh of heat, lets times it by 2 for the whole of winter. 52,000 kwh of thermal input into that building for space heating. Now my 80's three bed semi requires 10,000 kwh for space heating each year - so I don't think so.

Who is Miss Seelin Scandle? Never heard of her?

If there’s ever a video to prove heat pumps are beyond most peoples means, this is it. Just stay active (if you can)and wear more!😂

I can just see all that equipment fitting into my one bedroom flat. There is only one problem though, I wouldn’t fit into it afterwards! 😩

they do make noise, especially on defrost change over

Would be good to see & hear different models in action ... visitors centres etc ? it has to vary between make & model , & newer models not old enough . . Seems to me even a low db noise can be annoying, but might not hear it if double glassing etc.

Many won't be able to do this.Not in the UK anyway.

@@foppo100 Problem is that there will be a considerable amount of people willing to play being an expert, and when the bill is paid and the system doesn't live up to its promise, they are long gone. Same happened years ago with companies installing plastic door frames, windows, etc. On the surface it looked like a job well done, until you find the installation flaws, that end up costing you even more in the end.

A monoblock HP is best buy: does not take space in house and is easy to install even by yourself, 4-6kW ones cost 4000 euro. Aditionally for domestic hot water a 80-100liter heat pump boiler placed in bathroom would cost 1000 euro. Very little piping, valves, automation etc needed.

What do you think natural gas will cost in 10 years? It's going to go wayy up. It less a matter of if than when. More of the problems seems to be retrofitting from a water source heating. If you install air to air minisplit the COP is way higher and the installations are way less. At the end of the day the property is more future proofed. In the short term way more expensive but long term, it will be a lot cheaper!

Roger stated price parity for gas and electric And that’s exactly what’s happening

Did you see the old sash windows and complete lack of insulation in the basement ceiling, that house needed insulating properly first.

@@HATCHETHAS strangely enough, I thought I’d saw Celotex between the floor joists. An old house like that is unlikely to have cavity wall insulation and if the sash windows are original, that wouldn’t be goo for this system. However, the engineer has done a heat loss calculation in order to specify the correct sized radiators. And the end result is two enormous, heavy vertical radiators taking up valuable wall space. I don’t care what anyone says, this installation demonstrates that air source heat pump heating systems are only well suited to new builds, where insulation standards are vastly better than in the majority of our housing stock. The most cost effective way of reducing your energy bills is to insulate and draft proof your home. The other thing is to size your condensing boiler so that it’s not cycling, to benefit from the added efficiency of condensing technology. Those that think electric heating is viable for legacy housing stock have no idea about the numbers! Electric systems should not be subsidised, the case for adopting the technology should be compelling. But they are far far away from compelling, super costly, unduly complicated and expensive to repair! Eg my friend’s heat pump packed up not long after the warranty expired and was mugged £1500 for a new control board!? Our old boiler failed with a similar fault and the control board cost £200. Seriously, you’re paying one and a half times more for an air source heat pump control board as you do for an entire condensing gas boiler. By anyone’s standards, that’s ridiculous. People can’t afford these systems and those who find they have no alternative will be pretty fed up when they realise they have the plumbing of a small refinery wedged into their small dwellings!

Yes but the heat pump can be 300-500% efficient so still comparable or cheaper than gas! Watch heat geek channel for that!

wait till you cant pipe gas out of russia any more...

@@UrbanPlumbers Elect is x4 that of Gas. You're saying it's possible to get a CoP of 5 from an ASHP??? You sure? I do not see the economics working.

Newer ASHPs get a cop of 4 fairly regularly.

@@Etacovda63 Thanks. So £20k to install to cost the same to run as a combi? What am I missing here? I read a couple of scientific papers on ASHPs and GSHPs that said with the exception of CO2, for full life cycle, they're worse for the environment than Gas.

co2 emissions?

@@UrbanPlumbers I am glad you are wealthy enough to spend this amount on what will in a few years prove to be the next big scandal like Diesel cars are today, unfortunately only 5.1% of the UK population can afford to shop at Waitrose the other 94.9% will be forced to sleepwalk into this green nightmare mind you it is still a lovely bit of Plumbing.

@@jimh5031 In Scandinavia we have been building houses with triple glazing and insulation, also what i would call with a under roof. Also sealed doors. Here in Australia they are all extras, for a crazy price. Funny how when things become standardized and perform a function well, it pays to invest.

nice to hear. In the UK people are very conservative in their ways. There is great opposition to anything new here really. That is what makes the UK great and terrible at the same time ;)

For sure, the industry had had it too easy for the last 20 years.

Yep, that’s the uphill struggle we face now. Heat geek to the rescue?

Honestly agree Combis are incredibly easy to fit I wouldnt have a clue with these systems

You just wait until the likes of boxt start flogging heat pumps and get the home owners to do their own survey and then pay their combi slingers £750 to fit them 🙈

@@griffithsheating your absolutely right there!

What do you mean technology is not there yet? Ever heard of a fireplace? Eco friendly and cheap. Get one.

They work at great expense and inconvenience backed up with an electric boiler!

Remember the movie Brazil? Central Services have nothing on this guy... I've no idea either how most people will afford this. The promise (here in NL) is that we'll be able to get special loans or mortgages to greenify our homes, and that the cost of those loans are easily offset by the savings on the heating bill. But that €10k outdoor unit will have to be replaced in 10 years...

@@kaasmeester5903 Exactly! I can't believe the amount of ancillary equipment you need for one of these heat pumps. No wonder they're ruinously expensive.

We have been through this Rafal - your install is a mess and clearly installed by people who did not know what they were doing! Exactly what I say in the video. I offered to help but I do not think you were interested in having the system put right.

Astonishing amounts of pipework. I guess we will have to harden up and realise that this system is way out of reach for pensioners and others on low salaries.

He should tell us, without that piece of information this is just smoke and mirrors

I think Roger has a point, of sorts. He’s never said heat pumps never work, but how much would that install have cost? And how ugly are those TWO massive radiators in that lounge? And how much will the energy bills be?

@@SisterAbdullahX I estimated that install at £18k Inc VAT, UP said closer to £20k so yeah, it's a huge undertaking which many people can't afford, especially when the Heat Pump is £4k alone that's the price of most full installs for a standard home for a gas central heating system in a typical British property. Then you have the issue that even if you use weather comp and design for 50c, older people want higher surface temps and don't want fan coils pushing the air around to make up for the lower flow temps. Honestly I love fitting HP, Gas, not fond of oil and LPG just causes me to go home stinking but I feel like AC and mechanical ventilation would be better and having worked in america where many house builders are now trying to build passive houses on a commercial scale I feel the UK should be doing the same. After all if you don't have to consume any energy to keep a property at a comfortable level you've already saved the carbon footprint of building the property and don't have to worry about running costs which in turn means more spending money for home owners to put back into the economy. Perhaps that's just a little too logical for government though.

@@effervescence5664 Yep. I can see why HeatGeek is pushing Air Source (💷💷💷…) but the overwhelming majority of British home owners just aren’t going to go for a system like that. It’s far too expensive and intrusive.

@@SisterAbdullahX Yes it's not a large percentage of our business at all. We thought it would be hence we invested into the courses and even have a guy that's done stuff with Heat Geek. But for domestic it just hasn't been, commercial for the last 2 decades it has been a decent investment but it has for the most part been a tax deductible eco benefit to those institutions and companies we've installed for. Home owners on the other hand can't claim it all back or knock it off their personal tax, and some in older solid wall properties or ones of significant enough cultural interest can't have heat pumps at all. Insulation where permitted and a well designed gas installation will serve them far better until such a time that a wall hung heat pump can be produced.

The advantage of course of a heat pump is that you can combine it with solar and battery storage to reduce the running costs over time. But I take your point it is a bug chunk compared to a new Combi boiler. Although even Combi systems would benefit from bigger rads and lower temps. I believe there are finally some regs coming in that new builds should be low temp which will help things. Ive consistently argued now that all new builds should be as energy independent as possible. Solar, batteries, heat pump and eV charge points as standard wherever possible. Reduces the load on the grid over time and reduces fossi fuel usage which will ultimately lower electricity costs. Passive house standards should be adopted too we're way behind the curve in that respect. And we need to look at ways to get costs of retrofitting this stuff down. Economies of scale will help eventually.

Fancoils

Those two huge wall radiators could have been substituted with one small fan convector.

Which is why it's great that energy prices are now getting so high; we are more or less forced to change our ways.

I use a 8kW Daikin for 300 Square meters in the middle of Europe and its perfectly enough for us. Maybe this winter we have to help it with our old wood heater. We'll see.

@@wolfgangpreier9160 300m2 seems awfully large for 8kW. How is the weather there and how is your isolation?

@@alperenalperen2458 Middle European, currently very wet and about 10 Celsius, no isolation 39 centimeters of brick all around. Free standing in a North-South Valley. We have the most sunshine in the whole country. But its only moderate warm and cold throughout the year. No special roof insulation. 19-20 degrees in all rooms with old radiators from the 1980s. And warm water for 3 persons. Of course the heatpump has to work. About 18.000kWh a year. In gas that would be 45.000kWh. And in wood + solar heater it was about 60.000kWh because of a very old inefficient wood boiler. Of course wood would still be the cheapest form of energy but it also takes much work.

bashing heat pumps gets him too many views. He is a RU-vid Nigel Farage of heat pumps.

If it keeps my house at an agreeable temperature I would, but for the extra cold and unforeseen circumstances I would definitely want some kind of wood stove in the main living area.

I am aware of that. Float valve needs checking every year!

Hi Gary. It was a pleasure to meet you and hopefully we can do some project together soon.

@Urban Plumbers I look forward to it 🖖

totally agree, anyone claiming a heat pump is a direct replacment for a boiler is simply not understading the technology or misleading the public.

Once again it is dumb politicians making a ludicrously simplistic comparison. In the 1950s they promised that nuclear power was so cheap that electricity would not have to be metered. Presumably based on the mining cost of Uranium and coal per ton, and the relative power output per ton of fuel!

yes its through heat geek. I do not even have time to quote for jobs at the moment so MCS is really a no go for me.

Depends on your climate, if the majority of the winter is close to or above freezing, heat pumps will likely be cheaper. As you get past around -5c to -10c, your combi may start to be cheaper.. but then it also depends heavily on gas/electric prices! Also, not sure why in the UK air to air is so rare, considering how much more efficient it can be and how much simpler the installation process is I mean, I managed to install one in a freind's clubhouse in just a couple of hours, only a couple steps were easier with two people but in that situation absolutely could've been done with one person. Also depends what refrigerant your heat pumps use, R32 seems to deliver more heat in lower temps compared to the performance of R410a, but thats just from experience so don't take my word on that! If they're also inverter they'll perform much better than single speed units

@@tlaroche38 Thank you! So many different factors to take into account. I think I need to get energy metering installed and then do a couple of weekly runs in the winter comparing the air to air and combi system for heating. Prices are totally in the air and that is the main thing. We are talking about a chaotic system. Now we are approaching summer I'm more concerned about costs of cooling the house. The refrigerant is R32. I think the push is for replacing all forms of gas heating in the UK - I personally don't think it is practical and I for one will not be giving up my combi. Thanks again :)

@@rjy8960 Another potentially easier solution, is to calculate your break even COP and look at the minimum temperature that your systems can achieve this In my situation, gas is 7.48p per kWh, and electric is 28.46p per kWh So to calculate, divide your gas price (7.48) by your boilers efficiency (in my case 90% or .9) to get your *true* price per kWh of heat delivered, in my case this is 8.31p Next, take your price of electricity (mine is 28.46p/kWh) and divide by your true p/kWh from your boiler, so 28.46/8.61 which gives the break even COP for my system at 3.3, or 330% efficiency Then use that COP and check with the heat pump's data sheets to see the temps that this is achieved, annoyingly I don't have access to the data sheet for my system so can't tell you the exact figure, but I know the system normally achieves a COP between 3.6 and 4 so 3.3 *should* be achievable in most conditions So formula is: Electricity cost ÷ (gas price ÷ boiler efficiency) = break even COP Sorry that this is so rambly haha but hopefully some useful info!! Might be easier than tracking energy usage depending on what info you have available Edit: also, it's totally possible to replace all gas heating with heat pumps at the moment, but the government needs to stop dragging their heels and take some propper action, as with current electricity prices and installation costs, it's unlikely that a homeowner with a functioning gas boiler will see the installation costs of a heat pump returned within the equipment lifespan which really should not be the case but hey ho, that's a whole different discussion 🤣 like anything there's so much nuance and factors to consider which I doubt the government have looked into, evident in the fact I believe you only get the subsidy for installation costs for air to water or ground to water systems, not far cheaper air to air systems I think we basically have the same setup except my heat pump system is a 3 head multi with a combi boiler for hot water as opposed to 3 separate systems

This is no more complex than the regular hot water and gas boiler set up.

@@UrbanPlumbers Tell me sir, did you provide any design documentation, so the owner can get the equipment serviced or altered or investigated when a fault develops? I'm not being rude - this is a genuine question.

Rubbish.

the house is 1870, roof is insulated with 100mm spray foam, double glazing thorughout. around 150m2 over 3 floors. There will be a follow up video with running cost, ect. but it will come after next winter where we compare all the cost.

You have hit the nail on the head, we fit every type of heating under the sun and low surface temps on radiators are one of the biggest complaints from older customers, or even customers that had them fitted 10 years ago in their late 50's now in their late 60's are feeling cold. So we're ripping them out (supposed to have a 25 year working life) and fitting back a gas boiler in many instances. The psychological impact is quite big when dropping to 50c or below, yet current water regulations in the UK limit hot water temperature to below 46c to prevent scolding, and even less in care homes and alike at 41-43c. Makes for amusing call outs when residents in care homes complain of luke warm water but our hands are tied by legislation.

Hydrogens a pipe dream. We’d be using it already if it made sense, the technology hasn’t changed in years

Also people need to see what a service entails, because believe me when i say this, its not 100 pound service haha. The fan unit alone on those models are well expensive. Also mice love heat and these things are outside. There will be a fair few callouts to chewed wiring i bet in the next few years.

@@Etacovda63 technology has changed as hydrogen is very flammable and we can now deal with it in a domestic environment. Its actually very expensive to produce grey/blue hydrogen and most created using methane gas, so why would of it took its place if it was already in situ lol. We need to act now as the north sea cant supply the demand we need and no more russia gas lol

@@Purebeltersteveprobably half the houses in nz have heat pumps, I’ve never once heard of mice eating heat pump wiring.