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Well, you get to see more cards when you start the tournament with the blinds being so small so that will automatically give you an edge to build your stack without losing your stack. The only disadvantage is mental fatigue. Late regs will have to wait for a hand and push all-in in hope to double up. But like this video say, you don't risk playing all day for nothing. If you gamble and double up, you're in great position to push into the money.
Yeah but you're going to get knocked out 80+% of the time regardless. Late regging did drop your ITM from 18-20% to 15%, but increased my hourly profit significantly. If you play 4 hours before registration closes, that's 16 hours wasted in the 5 tournaments you play to get 1 ITM. I'd rather find out I'm not reaching a final table in 20-30 minutes rather than over 4-5 hours. Not too mention the EV loss of being one of the less fresh and focused players at the final table. I spend the additional hours not early regging playing cash which also raises my hourly/total profit even further.
In my local tournaments when the tournament starts the only ones there are the out of city regs. If you start then you will start at a tougher table. If you start 30 minutes later you end up in tables with the local recreational players that are much softer.
If you´re a good poker player then you would definitely want to play as much time as possible, because you as the better player will get more value the more time you commit into playing. And if you´re confident in your poker skills, then why wouldn´t you play for as much time as possible? Nothing wrong with late registration in my opinion, but it surely does decrease your chance of winning because you will see less hands and therefor see less possible value spots.
If you are a good player at all forms of stack depths late registration will not increase your ROI %, but it may increase your hourly rate in some circumstances.
@@26bisket But not when someone late registers. When you enter day 4 of a tournament then yes your chips are in play but as stated in the video, if you register 3 hours late at an even you get a full starting stack.
Sometimes blinds are so slow and stacks are so deep that missing the first few hours hardly changes anything. It’s almost set up for only coolers and awful play
What I find annoying is you build a stack of say a hundred bb and then you end up on a table full of ten bb stacks and end up in a shit situation. When I’ve registered late usually I’ve noticed you can just double up and maybe steal a few pots and it’s not long before you’re in the money and does feel an bit wrong because there’s a lot less skill involved. You sit down short and shove with the first playable hand or situation and if you are lucky you win and are well in for a chance of a cash. If you register early and tou have to play well for a lot longer
Re-buys themselves are disgraceful. A tournament is supposed to be a level playing field. That's the point. Everyone should have to start at the same time with the same stack. When you're out, you're out.
I agree. I hate re buys. People with money to burn don't care until re buy period over. They can shove with garbage and crack premium hands. So those that can't afford to re buy are in a bad position. My nearby casinos now ALL have re buys and late registration thru level 7. That's why I am thinking of going late and this video was a HUGE help.
Rebuy tourneys are awesome if you adjust how you play to exploit people donking off chips, need to have a much wider position oriented range (in my experience) to build a super stack early. Plus the more buy ins a person is in for the more the player stays on tilt (chasing the dragon so to speak) and makes poor decisions aka mistakes which can be exploited.
@@RoCkShaDoWWaLkEr But with a wider range comes more variance. If the game itself has high variance - which definitely happens if everyone is prepared to re-buy 20 times - it affects you. I totally stopped playing online tournaments because I got sick of 7-8 players shoving every single hand for the first hour. That's not poker. You may as well play a slot machine at that point. Even with aces, you'll generally only have around 17% equity in a hand where 6+ players are all-in.
@@colintimp1372 Wider range ;but position is the priority. I play a ton of rebuy tourneys and have no problem getting a super stack early playing that way. Been highly profitable for me in tourneys.
@@andrewdoctor6584 I just feel that everyone should start at the same time, face more decisions early on, If you can't make it on time, just get blinded out or don't enter, Casinos too greedy though, I don't like when people try to manipulate things to get an edge or advantage. That is all.
it is a business my man. you pay your money and expect a return on your investment. You get paid based on your skill, these people are not here for fun, they would be at their small time casino for that.
Agree with you 100%. If you're a highly skilled professional player who presumably is used to playing in deep-stacked cash games, you really should WANT to be there at the table playing when the tournament stacks are at their deepest and the most recreational players are likely to be there at your table!
@@gorillacypo6899 only true in turbos. How many day 2 main event players have you seen run deep since they started letting you do it? Not many if at all Also building a stack early gives you a margin of error or extra wiggle room in case a bad beat or cooler happens. You’re done if you late reg and lose a big pot that you can’t get away from
honestly, it really depends. If you are an extremely skilled player who is great post flop and has the stamina to continue, you should absolutely be there at the beginning to try and rack up a stack If you dont have the stamina to do that, or are just a natural short-stack player that can navigate their way around levels and slowly build a stack and not afraid to jam according to nash charts, it can absolutely be +EV to late reg
Late reg is only a good idea for smaller tournaments imo. It gives you a higher chance to cash. Larger tournaments it's not that important unless you know you don't have the mental stamina for the long days of playing and sitting one or 2 days out will leave you mentally fresh to play the last few days. However, I've late reg several times and was blinded out due to having no good cards at all and blasting a desperate all in at the end to lose to bigger stacks. If you register early you have more chances to get good cards and make plays. Even early regs sometimes get crap cards and get blinded out so imagine on day 2 or 3 you're the small stack getting bullied by many larger stacks? Math doesn't add up. So in my opinion if it's a long tournament don't get involved unless you can play it till the end. A perfect example is Zhang or other players who lose the lead or make stupid mistakes due to mental fatigue and trying to get it over with compared to making different plays if they were well rested and more alert on the table. 🤷♂️
Its good idea if you cant play deep stack and thats what start of tournaments are. There isbt really any advantage to it, i see it all the time and sometimes people cash after buying in just before registration closes but huge majority of time they dont get anywhere near payouts. I have good example of older lady i used to play very often in local tournaments. Cant tell you how many times i was in final 3-4 players with her. For several years now she is buying in at very end of registration period and its usually after the brake that she would buy in. Field is usually cut in half by then, from 50 players starting there are around 30 left but at the same time average stack is almost double what she is starting with and some stacks are 4 times the size. She is pretty much handcuffed between real shortstacks shoving all in pre flop and big stacks she cant play a pot without committing majority of her chips. Anyway i seen her at the final table maybe once in last few years since she is buying in late and she was on 3 final tables a week when she was buying in at the beginning of the tournament. Its basically survival, waiting for monster hand or all shorter stacks to go broke before you can gamble your 10 or 15 bigs.
Late registration does need to be toned down a bit, I feel its almost stealing from people. On Wsop you will find games that will be 10-50 dollar rebuy and addons. One buy in will be 4kchips 8k for double buy in, problem is they will let late registration go when the blinds gets up to 1k or more. SO they let people buy in that are basically forced into an all in situation on the first hand they play. Which also can suck for the people who have been playing for 2 hours already. You will also see the opposite where a late buy in player with no choice ends up sucking out a huge pot and suddenly has a chip stack in range of the money. This causes a point in the game right before late regi ends where poker doesn't even get played, just becomes a shove fest.
A shove fest is part of the game. And if you think you have no choice with 8BB, then you can‘t have a clue about poker. 8BB from UTG should be open jammed about 18.4% (Nash equilibrium). 15BB you should have no open shoves till it hits the CO. And also your point makes no sense, you could be card dead till late reg ends and have 8BB even if you start at the beginning. Also it’s not unfair to other players! If you have an edge, you realise that in playing a lot of pots and avoiding coin flip all ins as good as you can. If you have an edge, and start from the first level, there is 0 disadvantedge from players late regging. You have to play against 8BB stacks eventually and just play your ICM or Nash adjusted ranges against that. No harm no foul.
@@matthiasrudigier3336 it seems you don't understand poker yourself to make such unequivocal statements. How does what you've written account for the difference in value between chips in different tournaments? 10bb in my local casino tournament has a very different meaning and value to 10bb in the Main Event at the WSOP and should therefore be played differently for optimal outcomes.
@@Tom_Bee_ That depends. If it´s the same spot, with the same ICM implications it´s played the same by the machine, no matter if there are 10Million up top or 1k. Yes the Main Event spot will make you more money, but you don´t calculate with the raw money. You calculate with the sturcture. Also 10bb in the main has a very diffrent meaning depending on the stage. But there comes a point where you have no more choice and push fold becomes the optimal play, even in the main event. And that spot is around 10-15BB.
To me it's negative EV, if I have to pay the same price to start with 60k chips and the tournament average is now 80k chip stack. Of course I also don't believe in rebuying a tournament for the same reason.
Tournament average stack doesn't matter at all...if anything it should mean its +EV because that means people have busted already so your chips have increased in ICM value as the video illustrated
This is so dumb, people be talking about ICM and value of the stack 4 levels into 7 day long tournament. That sit&go example is so useless, if you buy in to tournament that has e players left you will usually make money, if you could buy in to final 5 of main event you would be all in 6 times automatically just because your stack is like 10% of BB. You can start bringing up ICM near the bubble not on day one of main event and thats pretty much when late registration ends i would guess
i like ACR but i simply cannot play from the start with how long late reg is. It's 3/4 hours of late reg, 2/3 hour of bubble play, then another 2/3 hours of late stage play.
Buy in until first break, fair. Since when does a casino really care about the juice on top of a tournament buy-in, pennies. Get a thousands of gamblers to come to your casino for days, now we're talking $. Lengthen the blinds, keep us in the building longer 👍
Longer blinds = less money for the casino. Small buyins 2500 and less generally have horrific structures as they want the game to be over quicker. Bigger buyins 5ks, 10ks + will generally have heaps better blind structures due to more rake.
It's the opposite. The longer the tournament last the less they earn. A tournament has a one time interest, which is in the buy in. The faster they can get you out the better. Cash game is what you are referring to as they are raking from each pot. Earning more the longer you play. Tournaments is more an attraction to get people into your casino, it's like a "for sale" poster on your store. What casino truly earns on are what you do after the tournament. The best for them would be if you got stuck in the pit, gambling your money away on Slots. as a player, I love the longer blind structures. I don't mind short startstacks. As long as the buisness part (mid-late) is possible to maneuver. 35-40+ avg is nice.
This misses the a big advantage of late rege. For a good player the early stages may only provide a small additional edge to going deep in the tournament, whereas they can find a greater edge by skipping day 1 for their regular high stakes cash games, especially if the tourney by in is small relative to their usual games.
5:34 No dude. It is simple arithmetic. You dont need a supercomputer. You just a pocket calculator and patience to enter all the data about the remaining players chip stacks after day 1.
That what I came to say. If the other 5 have 20k and you have 10k, their chips are worth in icm is $20 while the 11th entry has 10k for $10 worth. How could he not know that and be making videos
How does it though? Like the ICM math shows like in his example with half the people gone under a 10% advantage, but if you're at all good, you reging late removes your opportunity to take chips from the worst people. If a 10% advantage is higher than the EV of your stack playing from the beginning, then you're not very good to begin with.
@@EnderSword your correct I’m not very good but I seem to place in the money 70% of the time when I do the late registration and go out around the levels 12-14 when I joint on time and get upset because I don’t cash.
@@teamginate3400 If you read that as a comment on your play instead of a general mathematical truth, then I don't even know where to begin addressing that level of misunderstanding. Literally could not possibly care less about your personal play.
A number of my friends who are pros do it. But a lot don’t cause they want to get the chips from the amateurs early on before the amateurs, like me, dump them to some other pro lol
I got screwed hard by late registration in the home warming tourney…. 300K stack…. 4pm hits 3 late registration come to my table…. My AK beat by A10 50K gone My pocket 10’s beat by a flush 50K gone My KQ spades beaten by JQ off 50K gone Registration late then jamming you stack is not poker
It’s a fucking game, are you not trying to win it ? That’s like saying studying chess with engines is not chess. It can be a +EV decision to late reg, but it will never be as much EV as entering early, if you know what you are doing. You got hit by variance that’s all. Is a player who was card dead till late reg ended and then he has to jam his 10BB stack with KQs from UTG not playing poker ? If so, can you tell me exactly when he stopped playing poker ?
@@matthiasrudigier3336 the fact of the matter is …big pots in the beginning of any mtt tournament are equal to stealing blinds later in the tournament. Simply not worth playing the early levels , 50%-75% of the field evens out as the tournament progresses. Few outliers have far more than everyone else , but still very in reach. Basically you suck lol
You had 1 bad beat, 10s is questionable your at best flipping, and KQ not sure how it played out but I’m nearly certain you played it wrong. Just play better I reckon.
WORK watch your language with those 4 letter words. Tournaments use to be great now they suck. These days most of the wsop are geared to rich people.Stick to cash games
How does addon affect Icm? I see on Rebuy+addon structures. startstack and rebuy 10,000 chips, addon 20,000. How much icm advantage would you gain by late regging into the Break, just directly buying in and 1 addon for 30,000.? Is it a big difference if the field is 50players or 500players? I do understand the addon is a must. But I wonder wether it's worth registrering early to play the early levels, having to rebuy a couple of times, or if it's just better to late reg everytime into the break and take the Addon. I'd love some hard facts and numbers, opinion wise people tend to agree with Late reg+addon.
I have the answer based on how today's poker professionals play in tournaments. Instead of using playing cards, the dealer will flip a coin. The tournament will just be one massive bracket, and everyone will advance by doing coin-flips against an opponent. At the end, the one person who never lost a flip will win the tournament. Instead of requiring 2 days, dozens of tables and dealers, etc, the whole thing will be over in a couple hours.
it should be banned. makes the tournament longer with some advantage to the late regs as stated in the video.. Other thing I'm not a fan of is more than one entry
I’d like to see second day reg banned. However, there’s too much overlap in the current WSOP. Late reg allows guys who bust out of one tourney to jump into another without having to take time off. The topic no one is talking about here, is rebuys. I’ve sat next to pros who are calculating ICM out loud. They look down their small stack and pump it into the pot? Why? Because their rebuy gives them a larger stack and ICM than getting a great hand with no chance of maximizing return. Yeah.. I’m sick of sitting/playing in tournaments only to watch endless rebuys and bad coin flips .
