It strikes me that the District Line was a bit like a little boy who was told to help himself to as much pudding as he wants but then finds his eyes were bigger than his stomach.
Guildford has a very interesting Cathedral. I think one of the last purpose built cathedrals in the UK (the new Coventry one is a year younger). It's best described as _power station gothic_
I did a concert in Guildford Cathedral many moons ago. Despite its external appearance ("Power Station Gothic" is bang on!), the inside is in light Portland stone, and the acoustic is sublime.
If you go by completion date, Liverpool [Church of England] Cathedral is surprisingly new. Younger even than the Catholic cathedral down the road. Completed in 1978. Guildford was completed in 1948. Liverpool Catholic Cathedral in 1967, Coventry Cathedral, the new bit was completed in 1962 but it is technically a chapel to the old ruin which is still there.
Fun fictional fact: Guildford, as every Douglas Adams fan will tell you, is where Arthur Dent's friend, Ford Prefect, said he came from, though it turned out he was actually from a planet orbiting Betelgeuse.
I've got a book somewhere on country walks in Surrey and in the introduction it says that until the late 19th century Surrey was one of the poorest areas of the country, not being prime agricultural land or having much in the way of industry. Obviously it's now a very affluent area but to a large degree as a residential area for people who make their money elsewhere, so you could say the railway is entirely responsible for that.
Guildford itself is a strange mixture. The town centre oozes prosperity, but with the exception of a few small pockets of fine homes, most of the housing stock is of a standard no better than moderate- there is even a rough sink estate. The wealthy people either live around the edges of the town or in the surrounding villages.
And the line from Surbiton to Putney still exits and is served by a parliamentary service from Basingstoke to Waterloo and goes via Putney without stopping. Geoff Marshall has done a video on this topic called the South Western Railway service that runs on the District Line
It does not just operate as a parliamentary service, the route is often used to allow extended hour works on the main line between Wimbledon and Clapham Junction. Its main limitation is that many years ago the north bound line and bridge were lifted just beyond East Putney station, so there is just the single track 'south' bound track at the junction with the main line going out via Putney so limited capacity and the need for north bound trains to switch across the main line tracks.
There are two daily passenger services over this stretch of track; the 0454 from BSK to WAT and the 23:12 in the opposite direction. There is also at least one ECS move from Wimbledon Park at least in the morning booked over the District Line. I believe the main purpose of this is so crew retain route knowledge for emergency working - which does have a use; a few weeks ago I was on a very early Sunday morning train diverted up this way due to overrunning engineering work on the mainline, and many years ago (April 1999 if anyone is interested) the down main fast had a broken rail in the same stretch, both of which made for interesting detours.
@@rau1seixas I lived in Wimbledon Park for many years. I loved Wimbledon Park station. It would be my dream to go on a Rail train and go straight through the station!
The track adjacent to the LSWR between Raynes Park and New Malden was safeguarded for the District Line. Where the A3 crosses it, the bridge has provision for the extra two tracks. It was recently made into a cycle and pedestrian thoroughfare but in the longer term it is still safeguarded for Crossrail 2.
A friend of mine owned Clandon Station and he did a lot of work inside. All the windows were numbered and had in pencil- in a beautiful almost copperplate style written on them Clandon Station, Guildford Kingston & London Railway. He gave some of these windows to an architectural trust.
When you say "owned the station" do you mean he lived in the house that's part of the station building? Seems like quite a few of the buildings on the NGL have houses in them that I guess were once station master's houses, but are now just privately owned.
@@mdhazeldine His grandparents rented the house (which is the end of the station building) from BR in 1958 as his grandfather worked for BR but it had been the stationmaster's house. His parents died when he was young so he moved into the house in the mid-60s. After his grandparents died, his uncle who also lived in the house bought it from BR. When he died in 2007 my friend was left the house by his uncle and began the process of doing it up.
One of the reasons I went to Surrey University in Guildford was because London was on the doorstep and I think the Underground would be a nice connection; shame it didn't occur. I now work in Harlow, Essex where I've heard there are plans to connect it to the Central Line but I'm not sure what to make of that.
Never knew this was the reason for the New Guildford Line. When I moved here in the late 90s they were talking about a new station on the line at Merrow which would have been a few minutes walk from here and it's still being talked about.
I used to work in Guildford for Surrey County Council. The prospect of a station at Merrow was a non-starter as the line there is just too steep for even modern trains with their efficient brakes to stop/start without causing timetable delays.
My late father often was called in to relief at Effingham Jnc even when he was at London Bridge, on his days off he would trundle off rubbing hands with glee with double bubble and a half at least for handling quite an easy signalbox, he dotted around some of these old haunts of his as he maintained his passing out on several boxes and of course he also got lieu days on top which allowed us to have sometimes 3 holidays a year.
Effingham, along with Bookham and Ashtead, were places that didn’t want this new-fangled railway thing near them, with the result that their stations are nowhere near the village centres.
You wouldn’t think it today but Bonfire night in Guildford was a rowdy and violent affair from the 1820s until the 1860s and it took the presence of armed police and the army to restore order. Had the tradition not died out Guildford might now have bonfire traditions similar to Lewes in Sussex.
A great video with a Kingston and Surbiton bonus that peaked my interest as a Kingston Poly-versity alumnus from the early 1990s (it was going through the change when I was there) and having a family connection; mother and grandfather were Kingstonians. I used to pass Kingston Station on my way to the campus at the old Sopwith Factory on Canbury Park Road and use Surbiton Station to get the train to get back home to Suffolk. I lived behind Surbiton Station twice during my studies. Intrigued by the history of the lines and associated stations. Keep it up Jago!
The building on the corner of Fairfield South and Villiers Road in Kingston, which for many years was a pub, is said to be a station built by the London and Southamptom for Kingston, before the council refused the railway going through the town. More unlikely is the rumour that there are the remains of the beginnings of an underground station in the basement of Wilkinsons in Kingston, which was originally a theatre dating back to the early 20th century.
I think (1) isn't true - I've heard that before regarding the Fairfield Tavern (as it used to be among other names) but it seems to have been a house all along. Although the line would almost certainly have gone that way, along the west side of Villiers Road and by the old Vine Products factory. (2) was the subject of a story by Robin Hutchinson a few years ago but as you say, unlikely. Part of the Seething legend.
maybe they would have taken their cue from the metropolitan and switched to steam haulage away from London proper- as the met did by changing locos at Rickmansworth back when they ran services to Aylesbury and beyond
Its not much better for the main line train providers as the line was designed more for small stations and halts than speed. It also only had to be as fast as the route via Woking which was operated by the same company.
@@rogerthomas368 Which is why the line from Guildford to Portsmouth keeps getting piecemeal upgrades - one later this month, with line closures for the works. But it'll never get the Running Lines it so desperately needs to put it on a par with other important radial lines. And let's not mention frequent interruptions caused by road vehicles striking rail bridges!
@@PhillipBicknell When built 'running lines' were more about capacity than speed and at the time capacity was provided by the Alton & Winchester line, long since gone. Our network suffers 2 major issues - it was the first and so its layout is 140+ years out of date and it was not wiped of the map during WWII :(
Many memories of working over all of those lines, including the connection from East Putney to Wandsworth Town. My first track walk after joining the railway was through East Putney tunnel while trains were still running (not sure they’d approve of that now!)
The only track-walking I've ever seen is when I was waiting for the Charing Cross train at Deptford station - an agitated-looking bloke asked me "Which direction is Greenwich?". I pointed the direction and he jumped onto the track and strode off towards Greenwich. Thing was, my train arrived within the next minute, so I've always hoped he made it OK ....
@@lefuedebout the tunnel is between East Putney and Southfields, the EP portal is just out of sight from the station round the left hand curve, past the junction of the line from Wandsworth Town.
Given that Surrey (politically rather than geographically or postally) is administered extra territorially from a County Council County Hall based in Kingston [Penryn Road] on the bus between Kingston and Surbiton. But Guildford is considered the county town by many a link between the two directly would have been useful. Instead of the 715 Bus or a walk- bus to Surbiton. Also although you are correct to say Guildford is not considered London being outside Oyster/Travelcard/Farecap zones. It was the bus boundary of the old London Passenger Transport Board, whose old country bus station forms the outer roadside platforms of the 1980's bus station.
@@paulqueripel3493 The move of SCC out of Kingston was how I ended up here in Guildford. My sister worked for SCC back in the early 80s when moving out to Guildford was planned. So when she got married they bought a house here in Guildford as did many of her colleagues. That move never happened but when I had to move from Leatherhead (long story) Guildford was somewhere I knew so I bought a place here in Merrow.
I went to Guildford, which ended up being interesting as LCBS had their garage , and a bus station in the Town, then Alder Valley had their bus station, and a bus garage, Blue Saloon I think terminated on a road opp that bus station and had a small bus garage at their end of route , using mostly ex London Transport RFs, Safeguard Coaches I think used the Alder Valley Bus Garage and tended to use new buses bought with grant money , Safeguard tended to sell there buses and coaches off to Safeway in Somerset , who only had to change four letters in the name and added more red to the livery when they acquired them !
In the 1980s the Surrey Advertiser (local paper) published an article describing the plans to build an underground railway network in Guildford. As a schoolboy, I was so excited at the prospect of taking the underground to school. It was April 1st. I was so, so disappointed when I realised I'd been fooled.
The former Dean of Guildford (Victor Stock) felt that the cathedral suffered from being on the edge of town. With the help of some professional transport planners, he put together a plan for a monorail link between the town centre and Stag Hill which would serve both the cathedral and Surrey University. Unfortunately the borough council refused to take it seriously.
Finally! I read many comments on these excellent videos, how viewers used the station / line, used to live next to it etc. I don't live anywhere near London so can't join in, but i was a student in Guildford! Hurrah! Keep up the good work.
The style of station building seen at 5:14 was a popular design of the time and also used at bus stations. I know of two, sadly lost in the past few decades. One, in the centre of Tunbridge Wells was a bus depot office and later for the local taxi rank. The other was, for years Sevenoaks Bus Station. We must have lost so many of these because they were presumably seen as unremarkable often badly maintained, but I would be interested in if any still survive outside of Railway Stations and why this design was adopted.
Not sure I've ever met an estate agent who really wanted to sell a property, they just show the ones they think will sell easily. Back in the 80's I had to move for a job, and the new employer paid for digs for me until the old house was sold and I could buy a new one. After 9 months they started to get irritated that I was still in digs. So I went to the branch of the selling estate agents, and asked for properties in my price bracket, same number of bedrooms. I was offered 5, none of which were mine. They weren't particularly embarassed, they figured they'd had a go for the first 6 weeks it was on the market, and as it hadn't sold then it really wasn't worth their time any more. Changed estate agents, told the new ones the story, it sold in 2 weeks. Loathsome breed, they are.
I believe the original name of Surbiton station was "Kingston Upon Railway". Surbiton means "South Barley Feilds" , Norbiton being the North version. Surbiton was also the starting-point of a car-carrying train to Okehampton of all places, in the summer season.
Surbiton looks the same as in the late 50's apart from being whiter and the logos, no British Railways Lion over a wheel on some posters instead of the normal one. Always thought that white was a strange colour to paint a station even if it was mainly electric trains running through it. The Taxi fare to Thames Ditton has probably gone up a bit from approximately 2/6d (12.5p), 6d (2.5p) Adult on the bus, half for a child.
They could; in theory; send the District Line to Kingston by 4th railing the line from Richmond + a set of points onto the Twickenham lines. Though in all practical sense, maybe the Overground could do the job. Kingston Bay Platform to Willesden Junction; with same platform interchange at Kew Gardens for the District line.
Interesting. Several of my grandparents were from the Kingston/Surbiton area, and one of my great great grandfathers was on the Council (and was the Labour candidate for Kingston upon Thames in the 1918 General Election).
I work at Woking . A popular question is when is the next train to Kingston/ How do I get to Kingston? It obviously involves changing at Wimbledon/or changing at Surbiton then Wimbledon. Alternatively alighting at Surbiton and catching a bus or walking. It’s one of many examples of how there isn’t a direct connection between two adjacent towns. It’s also an example of how and why the larger of the two neighbours ended up being on a loop line . Excellent story Jago .
There was sometimes rivalry between Kingston and Guildford as to which was the "County Town" of Surrey, stoked up by Kingston being moved into Greater London in one of the many local government re-organisations that regularly take place. County Hall was in Kingston even when Kingston wasn't in Surrey.
Not to mention Guildford. I thought the subjects for the brief glimpses of Guildford were very well chosen, and must have involved someone with good local knowledge.
SWR still run trains between Wimbledon and Putney Bridge to East Putney, rejoining the Windsor/Reading main. Access necessary to Wimbledon Park Depot mainly, and I believe there still is a Parliamentary service, 3 times a day. The lower voltage power rails limit SWR EMUs to 30mph, with a sedate crawl over the bridge. It's possible to use as a diversionary route, although the spur at Byfleet & New Haw via Addlestone & Chertsey to Staines would tend to be more commonly used for outlying services, to avoid disruption for District Line services. When I was working for BR, I looked out for the sparks working on installing CCTV on all the Guildford Branch stations. Great days.
SWR trains over the river to Putney Bridge must be extremely rare or non-existent. Most or more likely all of them join the Windsor- Clapham Junction line at East Putney. I have stood on the platform at Southfields many times waiting for a Wimbledon train while several empty-stock trains trundle through.
@@davidemmott6225 The line between East Putney and Putney Bridge, although owned and maintained by the LSWR and its successors until quite recently, has never carried service trains other than those of the District.
As a resident of the Guildford area, thanks for showing us some love! I had no idea about the Underground proposal and the history of the NGL. Great video overall, although I do have to pick you up on your line diagrams. You actually have to go through Twickenham on your way out of London to get around the loop to Kingston, so your curve is the wrong way round and the dot is in the wrong place. Also on your later diagram, you've done the East Putney diversion but upside down. East Putney is actually north of the SWML and Wimbledon. Anyway, the rest of it was great!
More's the pity! Wiki says 1999. Guildford still has Platforms 6 and 7 with just one track between them, specifically for Royal Mail trains. Guess what's not changing when they refurbish/rebuild the station!
I've often worked in the Chancery Lane station area, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but never knew that that building existed or even looked at; such is the blinkered life of a commuter.
Love these little pieces of history. Q Any chance on the Bourne End, Bucks to Henley on Thames Railway "banned" by the Leander Club, Henley Royal Regatta? I believe it was to have 13 Bridges across the River Thames between Marlow and Henley. Q. Any Route Maps?
I'm pretty sure the section between East Putney and Wimbledon has been officially part of the District Line far earlier than 1994. I used it regularly in the the 1980s and it was shown as such on the tube map.
The section between Wimbledon and the north end of Putney Bridge has always been part of the District for operating purposes, but was owned and maintained by the LSWR/SR/BR(S)/Network Rail until (I think) 1994, when ownership was formally transferred to whatever LT was then called. There are pics of BR(S) engineer's trains working between East Putney and Putney Bridge in the 1950s/60s if not later but no LSWR/SR service trains ever ventured beyond East Putney on the line to Putney Bridge.
This deserves a like for the illuminati symbol caption alone. I didn't realise that thr District Line offficially terminated at Putney Bridge until 1994 so thanks for that. Talking of Putney Bridge station, I don't really see the potential confusion with the name since the station is within sight of Putney Bridge and I assume those who watch your videos are on the whole intelligent enough to grasp that bridges generally have two ends to them.
In seems that the lessons of railway building are: 1 Things never go to plan; 2. Grand plans never come to pass; & 3. When you try to build a railway there is always a river getting in the way!
@@moaningpheromones Ha! Many have asked. But then I'd have to remember some of it, and to be honest, I'd rather not. 15 years of nights is a life sentence, believe me! But thanks for the suggestion!
I really wish the Wimbledon branch of the District ran all the way to Guildford. Ideally stopping only at Surbiton and Woking. That part of the network is hugely overcrowded (hence Crossrail 2, which I’m slightly surprised didn’t crop up in the video). Adding some extra capacity which goes to Victoria and Westminster rather than to Clapham Junction and Waterloo would be wonderful.
I can agree as commuting from Woking means you never get a seat by the time the fast trains come into Woking from Portsmouth or other destinations down the mainline
Hmmm, don't fancy commuting in a District Line train from Guildford or Woking all the way to Wimbledon at 60 mph or more! And it would reduce capacity rather than increase it, as District Line trains hold less than South Western Railway ones and there are no spare paths. What could help is more stops at Wimbledon and Clapham Junction to allow interchange, particularly in the rush hours.
@@iankemp1131 That's a fair point. I was imagining that extra paths would have been built, with extra District line capacity and then extra tracks down through SW London and Surrey. Seems like it would be better to diversify the routes rather than cramming more trains through Earlsfield. Obviously in this day and age the capacity is much harder to build, so this isn't a practical solution, but get started 150 years ago...
@@iankemp1131 there is the stopping train but it’s less frequent and takes double the time to get to Waterloo, I only used it when I was commuting to surbiton for a month
Im not 100% certain but im assuming the putney to wimbledon LSWR saga is why there is the parlimentary service through that line by south western railway (wimbledon to clapham juntion via wandsworth town)
2 things: 1) Effingham sounds like a polite way of swearing about a town. 2) my “friend” studied in Kingston and was really into his conspiracy theories. He insisted that wherever you looked there were illuminati signs, especially in architecture.
1:46 The junction at Twickenham is shown back to front. Trains from the Kingston direction arrive at Twickenham facing towards London, not Windsor. And at 6:21 the east Putney loop is to the north of the direct line between Clapham Junction and Wimbledon, not the south as you've shown it. (The junction at wandsworth is on the line to Richmond, not the one to Wimbledon)
Of course for a few years Thameslink trains ran to Guildford, but I doubt that the fact that a lot of it in central London is underground would count as an Underground link. However the history and various routes used by Thameslink trains could sport a number of videos.
Had District actually reached Guildford that probably wasn't to last long. It would be grudgingly slow to travel from Guildford to central London on an all-stations train, as I don't think the District had enough money to quadruple its lines. At best it's like the Upminster branch, with District running the local services, and at worst it's like the Met beyond Amersham, given up back to SR / BR in the early to mid-20th century.
As a long time resident of Kingston, I found this one particularly interesting. However, I never bought the "Kingston didn't want the railway so it went through Surbiton" story. The London & Southampton was laid out with very gentle curves. Serving Kingston would have needed a sharp deviation immediately west of the town to avoid having to cross the Thames and crossing the Home Park of Hampton Court Palace, which they would surely never have got the powers to do. No, the L&SR bypassed Kingston for the same reason the Londion & Birmingham avoided Northampton - geography (in Northampton's case because it would nhave needed as steep hill donw into the Nene Valley and out again) .
Your research powers are phenomenal. Does it all come from Primary Sources? Or do you have a Big Book of Complicated Railway Facts that you crib everything from?
There's an urban legend among tube fans in Kingston that there was a tube station built as part of the Bental Centre in the centre of Kingston. It's almost certainly untrue, but it's fun to find out what the source of the myth is!
Kingston / Surbiton's lack of any kind of tube connection almost seemed deliberate to me. Your mention of an attempt to drive a railway across Wimbledon Common is probably linked to the sort-of memory at the back of my mind that work began on taking the District westwards from Wimbledon to Kingston but nothing much was actually built. The other biggie of course is, that if the original line had been built linking Surbiton and Kingston directly, where would the line have gone? At present if you want to go from Surbiton to Kingston by rail you have to go to New Malden and then double back.
It is quicker to walk :) but the main thing is that there is a far better bus service between the 2 locations, following the old tram route that provided the historic link between the 2 locations.
@@rogerthomas368 Always found it interesting that the Green London Country buses took a slightly different route in Surbiton compared to the Red LT buses. Green Fares were different (higher) too
Are we being misled perhaps, I've seen that Kingston is branded Costa Station.Revenue stream opportunity for railways and tubes possibly, Tottenham court Gregg's, Starbucks wharf.
As someone who lives in the Woking / Guildford area of Surrey, I was very much intrigued. I think the SWR has a faster service into Waterloo than a tube train stopping at 101 stops along the way. It's slow enough on the District line from Wimbledon to Victoria as it is!
You can tell non-tube interests were involved with the Putney Br-Wimbledon section bc the intermediate stops at Southfields and Wimbledon Park look like wayside country stations on main lines, not 'moderne' tube designs. Until the middle of WW2, the Southern ran a somewhat pointless regular service (stoppers, not Parlys) from Waterloo to Wimbledon via Wandsworth Town, Don't know why anyone would prefer it to the direct line via Earlsfield. The wartime Chelsea-Hackney tube proposal has been elaborated into Crossrail 2 (aka the Charlie Line? Sounds like one for cokeheads). Services from Surrey and SW London would be diverted from the SWR main line at Raynes Park, diving underground to head through central London towards Essex. So there may yet be through trains from Guildford, Kingston etc into the heart of the capital instead of finishing on the wrong side of the river at Waterloo. Problem is the years of disruption building a low-level 'box' at Wimbledon would cause.
Hi Jago, Very interesting having lived in the Guildford area most of my misspent life never quite understood why the Underground stretched out as far North as Chesham and East towards Ongar, Upminster etc and yet south of the river the underground is patchy I suppose they thought/hoped London would expand more Northwards? If we started again I suspect the tube map would look very different! Cheers 👍
One of the national papers once ran an April Fools story about how people were stealing books from Ongar library. The headline was "Book lack in Ongar".
Jago, one small point you didn't mention. You said that Kingston was in Surrey. Which indeed it was. That is, up until 1st April 1965, when Greater London was formed and Surry lost a lot of territory to the new county of Greater London, including Kingston which now resides in the Royal Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames, which is part of Greater London and not Surrey. However, bizarrely, Kingston remains the capital town of Surrey, which leaves it with the very odd status of governing a county in which it, itself does not sit. On that same date, of course the counties of Essex, Kent and especially Middlesex lost land - Middlesex lost it all to London, Hertfordshire and Berkshire and ceased to exist entirely.
Guildford seems a bit ambitious, could see a revised version up to Surbiton if not towards Hampton Court as planned on Crossrail 2. Was the route between East Putney to Norbiton envisaged as going though Roehampton and Kingston Vale? Because it would have tied well with proposals for the Circle and H&C to reach Barnes from Hammersmith including Cecil Parkinson’s idea in about 1990 for the route to reach Barnes and Roehampton.
Looking at a map, if that aborted line was to have gone from Putney Bridge to Kingston right through Wimbledon Common, perhaps it's no bad thing it was never built!
How close did the mainline railways come to merging with / buying up the Metropolitan or the District? Why didn't, for example, the Great Eastern team up with the District rather than battle it out with "Jazz" trains and the like? We all know that the Metropolitan was one Edward Watkin degree of separation from the Great Central. That might be a good topic to do a video on.
I dont think the Great Eastern service from Liverpool Street really competed with the District - it did compete with local trams and of course elements of the service did pass to the central line post WW2. Once the public commission into transport in london was concluded ( and the 1922 grouping nearly did include the Met , but the Met fought against it with its london tunnels showing it was different to the other railways and retained its independence as such). The District barely existed, it had few physical miles of track but lots of running powers and the lines it did have interconnected to both Southern and LNER tracks
I am sure you realise you are building a body of work that will be a goto history of transport in and around London. It’s history that will now never be lost. I so wish I had this when I was wee kid, I would have been a history buff. All I remember was endless Marie Antoinette at School and on TV. This would have been so much more relevant. Keep it up please!
Just the other day we were having a discussion how too many nimbys of the yesteryears deprived Kingston and Teddington of a chance of being on the main lines...
So you finally made it to Guildford! The sacrifices you make for your art! O and don't tell the locals that they're not part of London, or they'll throw their top hats at you.
Guildford emphatically is NOT part of London, thank you very much :-) It's in the centre of the Surrey Hills AONB - one can be out of the town on foot in 15-20mins and into beautiful countryside.
