I was the one who named our company Mountain Bikes that I founded with Charles Kelly in September of 1979. Ritchey was our frame supplier for the first 3 years. Thanks! Well done review!
I just make a mountain bike into a touring bike and make sure it can do both. I don't have enough money to be too concerned with frame geometries and special components, so I use what I can get. Microshift Advent 3x9 11-46 gets me riding vertically and Maxxis Holy Rollers work well on road, gravel and hiking trails. I went from hydraulic brakes on my last bike to vbrakes on this new one. They work much better than expected. The thing is, it works.
The advent I dislike for the way the cable pulls sideways out of the guide. It adds tension at the start of the cable pull, from the perspective of the shifter, which multiplies in friction once the tension is measured at the thumb shifter,, like thread in a sewing machine. I wish advent worked great. I wish I tried a campag solution for ten speed that had a clutch.. but the Japanese designed the XT so well.
@@christopherprice-hq5sy Advent does work great. I don't know what you're talking about in regard to cable routing, because it's one of the best in that aspect.
@@pizzapie4me not cable routing, but how the cable exits the bracket on the mech. If it was turned so to be more straight in line that would be better but instead it is in line somewhat when in the lowest of gears. And also the clutch makes a rattling because it uses a ratcheting clutch so it's always a little loose. I use their thumb shifters and don't mind the company but they are Microshift and perform like Microshift despite no solid reason why it has to be so.
@@christopherprice-hq5sy I think it exits the derailleur at a pretty ideal angle. Much better than SRAM in some cases, and certainly better than Shimano.
I've thought about doing a video on hybrid bikes but the category is so broad and devoid of features other than a flat bar that it is virtually meaningless. No wonder they've never caught on.
Honestly Hybrids get too much of a bad rap/suffer from poor marketing, which is a shame because they fit the non-competitive user’s needs significantly more and at an affordable price entry point. I own a Giant Escape 3. There’s enough clearance for 45 mm tires (they come standard w/ 38), mounting points for rear racks + fenders, and comes standard with modest riser bars that you can easily swap out for something more ergo . In its stock form, it’s an excellent commuter/recreation bike; a few parts swaps and you’d get a pretty capable ATB/gravel machine, I’d think
It appears Russ is being "that guy" when it comes to hybrid snobbery. Anyway, I bought a Trek Dual Sport 3 Gen 5 that has a couple of mounting points, cushy 50mm 650bs and a very upright stack. I plan on riding it at RAGBRAI, cause Duzer said, ride what you brought. In fact, I am enjoying the hybrid and Kona Libre so much, I put my Madone up for sale. Roads are getting too dangerous in FL, so gravel and forestry road riding, I think, is for me and much more interesting. Anyway, it's the direction I'm taking and I am enjoying being out in the fresh air, low to no traffic, and a comfortable bike...
@@don_sharon The Specialized Sirrus is also considered a hybrid and is nothing like your Trek Dual Sport 3 Gen 5. So what is the defining feature of a hybrid other than not having drop bars? I have nothing against them but no one can agree to what they’re suppose to be like other than having two wheels and flat bars.
Nice discuss. It is like industry standards: they think one standard will rise to rule then all, but is just another standard in catolog. That said, is nice to see nice and good bikes not aimed to mimic some profissional sport
Most brands make entry level “mountain bikes” with a lot the versatility of this bike at a very low price, and use inexpensive components that are easy to service.
Can you point me in that direction? something that clears tires between 2.2 and 2.6? rigid frame, mtb components, etc? because I've been searching and searching for essentially a cheaper version of this bike, and there's not much out there on bike insights/99spokes etc. with the exception of maybe the Breezer Thunder
Cool! My 80s era Norco Bushpilot is in again. So everyone is back where i've always been. 😛 In the 2000s my local shopowner said, "I HATE those bikes! They NEVER break." Only downside is, the forks are too skinny to fit disc brakes. I'll fix that if it ever breaks...
Nice, I ride a 2018 Giant Toughroad SLR0 modified with Jones Bars instead of the stock flat bars and lower gearing. Not that dissimilar to that ATB, somewhat longer chainstays at 450mm and a bit less tyre clearance 2.2 max at rear and ALU frame/carbon fork with internal routing for dynamo and hydraulic discs. Great channel.
Thanks for this very informative video. I have a soft spot for my first MTB of 1996 and I still use it today, it is a fully rigid. In French mountain bikes are still and have always been called VTT: Vélo Tout Terrain which means, you guessed, "all terrain bike"! I wonder how the bike you describe in the video can be marketed in France? 😀
Very interesting. My now called ATB is an Avanti Hybrid with 700x38 tyres and suntour air forks with 50mm travel. The weight penalty of the forks is insignificant, but the comfort improvement is significant. I think more bikes should be offered with very light weight air forks with around 50mm travel.
Because my 1998 Specialized Rockhopper doesn't have a suspension fork, I have referred to it as a "primitive mountain bike" but have also called it an "all terrain bike." I've used it for everything except technical mountain biking, including paved touring (with rack and panniers and non-knobby tires. I'm sure it's heavier than a new ATB, but its a great bike and still fun to ride and with its original 3x drivetrain, will climb any mountain. I'm glad I've kept it all these years.
I'm so up for this, Mountain bikes have become far too bikepark orientated with their geometry in recent years and I miss the the Mountain Bikes of my 90s youth. Big 50 mile days out, covering ups and downs offroad. no suspension, but no less fun for it. The bike sort of just got out of the way of the ride/
@@manaknight333 I don't know if I agree... gravel bikes aren't suited to the downhills in the same way (drops). you are right about the hardtails XC, but those usually come with suspension. Hardtails tend to be super slack nowadays
It's great to see makers coming back to basics. My wife and I are in the market for a couple of ATBs for some bike packing / touring around Europe. One thing though, can you please also give measurements in metric as well. Thanks.👍
I really like this bike. Nice looking frame design and elegant color scheme. All the braze-ons are nice to have and feels like I could just swap out the tires depending on what I want to ride. It’s a nice upgrade in terms of components. Thanks very much for such a thorough review, Russ.
Wow! It looks like we have circled back to adding good brakes and gears to a quality beach cruiser frame. Or maybe we should refer to it as the original paper boy bike frame.
The Kona Dew Plus seems to fit into this category of bike at a very reasonable price point. The "urban/commuter" classification by Kona seems limiting, and with some tire and bar side-grades it could be quite capable.
I picked up a kona dew on marketplace about a year ago - stripped everything off it and rebuilt with a rigid carbon fork, microShift 1x10, hollowtech bb and cranks, 700cx43mm tyres and surly corner bars - I think it's the bees knees!
Unfortunately Kona's "full rigid with full-size tires" niche is filled by the Unit... at a much higher price point than the Dew. ~50mm tire clearance is such an annoying limitation. At least give us 2.5" to gain access to the huge variety of 2.1"-2.4" tires out there.
This bike provides qualities for all kinds of terrain, but also all kinds of riders and all kinds of riding. Super competent, complete, and copascetic review....as always. Thanks.
Awesome review Russ as always. Honestly, these days, I think many buyers are victims of bike industry marketing hype and buy bikes they think they need but actually don't instead of buying the bikes they think they don't need but actually do. I mean really, how many riders REALLY need full squish carbon fibre trail rockets? But hey, my buddies all have them so I should right?
I have a gravel, road, single-speed, and road race bike. I recently built an ATB out of a Surly Straggler, and I have the most fun on it. I can carry bags, a baby seat, and other cargo and have a blast doing it.
Apart from a few years on drop bar adventure/gravel bikes this pretty much sums up my past 10 years on bikes, flat bars, multi terrain compatible, superb all rounders, these days I just roll on my Surly Wednesday with fat and 29+ wheels, everything I need, keep it simple and enjoy the ride.
I like. I took the "mountain bike" handlebars off of my Marin Pine Mountain rigid frame steel bike and replaced them with more swept back bars. It is a bit more upright seat position but it is so much easier on my hands and wrists.
As you may recall. I a huge fan of hardcore hardtails but also love the long distance aerodynamic range of gravel bikes. So now after several long rough gravel descents in drops or on the hoods or slow moving climbs on hardtails that I’m not really rewarded with single track descents. The ATB really fills that niche.
Love thise front forks!Still keeping my Marin Larkspur tho. The step through frame is what does it for me. So easy to get on when you have a bunch of crap on the back.
It looks to me like the Wilde Supertramp geometry is somewhat like the Surly Ogre (which is like a non- suspension corrected Karate Monkey)- but with a longer/slacker front end.
I have a hard tail and a full sus, something like this is maybe next, especially for some rail trail type bike packing, id love to try those bars out, thanks Russ
Around in a big 45 year loop. Great looking bike. Love the sloping top tube. But I just added a Surly Bridge Club to the stable. N+25...bike addiction! 🚵♂️
Karate Monkey?! This thing is a direct relation to an Ogre, but much costlier. I just don't understand why the Ogre gets no love. I've never ridden another bike that is more capable of just about anything you throw at it. I've done road centuries+, multi-day bike packing, gravel grinding, and full on trail shredding on mine. I've had mine built single speed, 1x, and 3x with drops, flats and alt bars. It's the bike that I always come back to and wonder why I bothered with anything else.
I appreciate your exploration and reviews of everyday bikes. I have to remind myself of my riding needs and especially terrain which has no mountainous or gravel paths. I like when you compare and contrast bikes from previous reviews. I'm trying to pick out an ATB (fits me well, low gearing, no need for big tires) on a budget. And I can not wrap my head around alloy frames so love these steel bikes.
I have a Karate Monkey, brilliant bike, but being used to front suspension I found the straight rigid fork way too harsh, even with 2.6" tyres (now running short travel sus up front so big improvement for me). Also running a 90's MTB with cheap curved front fork, which I have no problem with as it seems to have plenty of compliance. I guess it's just me that finds straight rigid forks too harsh.
Interesting review. I have Surly Ogre that I had custom built about a decade ago, and strangely it matches a lot of your ATB build requirements, including using 29" tires (albeit only 35mm compared to the monsters everyone seems to run these days) and something close to a cut Jones H-bar with room for a bag on the front. I'd considered getting a drop-bar gravel bike and turning the Ogre into even more of a 'town bike' (it was built with a Shimano 8-speed Alfine as an 'all weather' bike before Gates became the thing that it is now and frames that support it be some more common). It's weird but fun to read your reviews and support for the ATB concept, which I seem to sort-of be riding, despite myself.
I'd say the Ogre typifies the current concept of the ATB to the tee from 'A' to 'B'! ;-) It, plus the Troll and even older Salsa Fargo for that matter, certainly pre-date the resurgence of the term 'ATB', but all exemplify the concept of a bike that is roughly equally at home on singletrack and paved roads, perhaps the best bike type for chunky two tracks, and ideal for long distance riding. Between the late '90s and early 2010s, there wasn't much in this space for bikes, beyond entry level mountain bikes that were rigid out of budget rather than desire. Road bikes had narrow 23 mm tires, cyclocross (and even hybrid) bikes had aggressive geometry and only 35 mm or so tires, and XC mountain bikes hadn't turned into off road monsters yet, but were still more than you needed for gravel and two tracks. Increasingly long travel and slack XC bikes opened up a gap for ATBs, and on the road side for gravel bikes.
same for me. rigid ogre with rohloff, heavy duty cargo wheel set, 2.6 tires and granny bar. 19kg naked and we get airborn quiet frequently. what are all these other bikes for?? 😎
Lovely looking bike! My AllCity NatureBoy is built up with Enve carbon forks (were on sale) XTR v-brakes, Panaracer 43c, Surly Open Bars and Blackburn rack. Rides like a bike and can handle 90% of all local roads and trails 😁
I really like this bike, this is exactly what I have been trying to aim for while converting my Marin to a solid fork and to have a more pull back bar.
Awesome channel.I have a atb. 1978 Carlton competition.goes everywhere and anywhere, obviously more suited to some situations than others but I love it.
I just don't understand the movement away from curly bars. Every time I ride a bike with swept back bars I feel like it puts all my weight on my rear end and turns my body into a great big sail which is a drag when riding into any amount of wind. I also miss all the hand and body positions available with curly bars.
An upright position for ATB/longer-haul riding is one of Grant Petersen's (of Rivendell Bikes) primary riding philosophies, especially for managing rougher terrain/descents on rigid ATB bikes. (He's not the only one to think of it, of course, but on the internet he seems to be most visible about it.) The idea is that having weight that far back reduces the danger of OTB on descents by reducing pressure on the fork and bringing the centre of gravity back to a safer place, and the upright position lets your body absorb vibrations better than in a more aggressive forward position. Many ATB manufacturers (and almost all of Rivendell Bike's models), for this reason, have a distinctly upright riding position, with the swept back bards for maximum ergo. The downside, of course, is what you've highlighted - your body is basically a gigantic sail in the wind, and climbing hills from such an upright position is significantly more difficult. It's not my wave, personally - I still enjoy my speed/aero/climbing ability, especially in tough winds - but over the course of a very long riding day out on a trail/gravel, I can see the appeal.
I think this is getting weird, the cost-benefit value of the basic bicycle is worth lauding, but the result is that we get premium builds, priced like performance bikes, that provide value because of their.. simplicity? Efficiency? I'm looking at my girlfriend's Jamis Coda while typing this - it's a 4130 steel frame hybrid w/ v-brakes, clearance for 700x42, shimano acera 3x8, tons of mounting points, and it was $200 (used-like-new). A lot of the value that the 90's rockhopper builds bring to the scene is that they're cheap and accessible - the whole point is that you can have a great ATB for no money, and you don't need premium new components. This bike feels like.. craft moonshine, premium organic grits, a pour-over that costs $7 because someone else made it. I feel like I'm being a hater - can someone who's got experience with a luxury ATB tell me if it's been worth it for you?
I agree…this bike DOES feel like a $7 pour over! As someone who has a couple mid-90’s (fully rigid) mountain bikes and also a Jones SWB (I was able to find a used one…new is too expensive for me), I can say that they are both good options. I think the modern ATB should be like a vintage mtb with bigger tires, disc brakes, and more comfortable riding position. But I love riding my vintage mtbs…just not on super long outings. Bike companies are charging way too much for these things…if you can score a cheap old bike and fix it up a little, you’re 90% there!
Have you tried the bridge club? I am wondering about the Wilde vs BC.I am thinking BC in 27.5, so I get that difference. I think of the BC exactly how you have described the Wilde.
I think "ATB" is just what happens when you get a) really unpretentious about cycling, and b) you mostly want to ride one bike and aren't especially extreme about any one discipline. Case in point: my wife traded her trusty Cross-Check for a Marin Larkspur last year, and at first I thought she was crazy. But when I rode the thing (small as it was), it was pretty sublime. The 1x11 was unfussy and just worked, the MT200s were equally chill-yet-effective, the riding position was comfy, and the 650Bs were plush as hell. Fast forward one year and a baby with front-mounted seat later, my old Nicasio now has a set of Jones H-bars, MT-200s, 650Bs with WTB Horizons, and a Sram 1x11. The drops are still sitting in the basement with the brifters and tape just as I left them, and that's probably where they're going to stay.
Let's face it, this is what most people need and would enjoy. Proper this and integrated that, internal cables blah,blah,blah. My 90s stuff still works for a reason. Back then you didn't need a decoder ring to bolt some parts on.
I don't think it's fair at all to say that all road bikes are not comfortable - endurance road bike geometry is incredibly comfortable over long distances. I took my Ti road bike with endurance geometry on a nearly 300km single day ride late last month and it was fantastic - no pain whatsoever in my back, hands, arms, or neck. Obviously if you choose race geometry it'd be a different story, but endurance geometry is designed for long distance comfort.
I'm running a Scott Sub Cross, it's a hardtail 'cross trekking' bike with 63 mm of front suspension travel, so it's not too much but good on bad roads. it's fitted with 700x45 gravel tires which are perfect and a 3x9 shimano altus drivetrain because that can do everything. good experience so far. also hydro disks are fun :D
Realized this years ago -- have converted many high-spec 90s MTBs into ATB/Allroad bikes. Also, the late 90s / early 2000s 28mm suspensions are pretty ideal for ATB use, as they weigh very little and come with lockouts.
Your bikes looks like mine but I changed out the tan walled tires for marathon reflectives. I must admit I am thinking of changing the Jones bar for a Dream riser as I am finding my wrists don't like the extreme angle.
Front suspension makes massive difference for handling and comfort, but you honestly don't need that much travel outside of actual mountain biking. Suspension forks affect more than just handling, they're kinda heavy and require considerable maintenance. That's why the Redshift stem was such a success. I think it absolutely nailed the suspension stem concept, making it something that's pretty light, stealthy, maintenance free and very effective.
It's interesting to see the ATB come back around. In the mid-80's Raleigh, Schwinn and others experimented with ATB/off road touring bikes. The Raleigh Mountain Tour& Schwinn Cimarron are the two I'm most familiar with, but I know Diamondback and others had models with mid-blade fork mounts, rack mounts, etc. as well. The industry continues to recycle ideas as they have for the past 120+ years, but it's not necessarily a bad thing as we seem to largely be shifting back to more practical/accessible bikes.
Mean Streak was one such Diamondback model in the 80s-it was their high end bike, but it still had front and rear rack and fender mounts. I think I can say the same about most of the 80s ATBs I've seen. They rock.
It’s a cool bike but I think a lot of people will struggle to justify the $3000 price tag. One of the main benefits of not buying more than you need, is cost savings. No need to buy a mansion if you only need a condo. So how do I justify the huge cost of the supertramp against a similarly priced but more capable mountain bike? Why wouldn’t a buy a surly for almost half the price?
Buy the frameset. Its a 200 price difference compared to a comparable Surly frame. This isn't rocket science. The level of components are difference the price reflects that.
The new Kona Sutra LTD fits the bill for ATB. Its steel, completely rigid, Rival 1, 11-42 rear, 36t front, 180 rotors, big dropper, with tire clearance up to 29 x 2.35. Mounting points all over, and its super comfy on long tours. Its perfect for almost anything in Michigan
absolutely, it's like a drop bar version of this bike. my gf has one and theyre sweeeeet, but she has it set up wiith a 10-52 in the rear with the aftermarket shifter upgrade
Just sending some love out to the Cannondale Bad Boy which was genre buster when it first came out as a hybrid commuter. Mine is 700c, not exactly supple because it is heavy, unbreakable aluminium, but had room for MTB tyres. I've owned it for 10 years and it has variously been a hybrid commuter, mountain bike, gravel bike and is now is my winter road bike. I'll never sell it.
I really dig this bike, and the ATB mantra in general. I’ll be rocking my 90s Shogun Metro A/T until I can afford a modern ATB, and even then I’ll probably ride the crusty bike more 😂
I like to think about different bikes specializations arranged into a circle of flavours rather than in a linear spectrum. As such, we have bikes for descending rough stuff, bikes for climbing rough stuff, bikes for achieving the highest speed on a paved surface etc. But yeah, the average person would need a bike that fits somewhere inside this circle.
Bikes are like Men’s suits: keep em around and they’ll come back in style. This “ new bike” featured can be found on CL as many iterations of 80s-90s bike frame. Easy enough to swap out the gears, little tougher going to disc brakes but since disc brakes are “flavor-of-the-day”, I can do without & save $$$ for better things; like nicer wheels. One thing disc brakes offer is versatility in quick change overs of wheels: 650-700s and given a frame’s clearance; wide variety of tire sizes. Swap out handlebars from flat to curl & you have a true all-arounder. Personally I enjoy buying used bikes at discount and ride them and then give them away to some needy entity. ✌️
ATB - translating into English the French term for Mountain bike (wait, what?!?). "All terrain bike" is the English version of "Vélo tout terrain" which in turn is the French for "mountain bike"....
@@PathLessPedaledTV 💡thanks! Awesome video. Now I don’t feel like such a poser cuz I ride on the hoods 90% of the time lol. Plus drops look way cooler and I can match my bar tape to my tan walls 😂
It's a nice update to the mid 80s ATB and the 90s cross and hybrids, but...I'd rather save money and buy an old frame that will deliver 90% of the performance and save 90% of my $$$.
I was wondering the whole time if you were going to address the comparisons to other bikes that others and myself raised and you did! Awesome vid Russ, thanks!
I'll stick with my Hardtack (with Jones bars). Longer chainstays (although I wish they were much longer), much slacker STA, and more fork offset on the Hardtack. FWIW, the Hardtack fork offset is 61mm, per an email from James, not 63mm as listed on Bike Insights.
I still have my 1997 Gary Fisher paragon .... It still performs well on what I consider mountain biking ...... Single track cross country , pretty much a hiking trail 👌 not today's MTB course ( a BMX course on the side of mountain 🤷♂️)
I find that alt bars seem to make the bike feel to small with a stem under 120mm. With a stem of 120 when i place my hands on the back sweep it feels just right not to twichy and not slow steering wise
ATBs rule. I've come to really enjoy a pretty slack HTA on my recent ATBs. Rocking 65-66 deg lately(with 2" + fork rake). I think a lot of the geometry lessons of progressive hardtail geometry can carry over to ATBs with some considerations.
Threaded 1” fork/stem though-those were pretty awful! Threadless headset was a massive improvement. Square taper BB were awful, rim brakes were awful…etc. Personally, I see the value of these modernized versions.
Was just mulling this when reviewing my bike stable. Costs of buying and maintaining bikes have reached crazy levels and fashion seem to have taken over from functional design. I have a hybrid Giant Seek 0 which I have customised with SLR seat post, saddle and xc cockpit, Magura MT4 brakes, DT Swiss rims, Shimano dynamo hub and Alfine 11. It has an eccentric BB so no issues with pulleys. It is light, easy to ride and simple to maintain. If the frame breaks I really have no idea what I could replace it with.
The relationship between stem length, hand position on the bars and handling can be repeated too many times. Alt bars are the bomb - even on my mnt bike.
I was interested in getting one of these, but then I found that the Supertramp geometry is pretty close to my rigid 2013 Ritchey P-29er, except the reach of the Wilde is a bit longer to accommodate more space for frame bags. Does this mean modern ATBs are just 2010s racy XC bikes, but with more utility?
I love my LHT, 26" is better suited for my short Russ like legs. Brakes are cheap and easy to work on. Comfortable. Plenty capable to go and do with fat tires. It's just too bad Surly quit making them and they're a pain in the ass to find now.
recently got a similar shaped ebike with no suspoension. And yes I took it on some dirt roads which it handled no problem at all. I'm starting to wonder if we got a bit carried away with suspension *uinless you're a proper mountain biker)
I'm sure it is a capable bike, but I prefer the look of a non-sloping top tube. Also not sure this bike even as a frame(which may be hard to source) makes more sense than a Surly BC or Ogre.
With the price of dropbar stuff, racing marketing storytelling, general cost of living crisis and bike innovation coming full circle every 20 years, it seems anything but unexpected :)
I've fallen in love with drop bar gravel over the last 10 years after previous years of riding flat bar hard tails, so this seems a bit out of my comfort zone. Maybe you've talked about this before, but where do we go to get a feel for what we like? Most LBS in my neck of the woods (North Carolina Piedmont) have a limited selection of brands and tend to specialize in either road or full suspension mountain. What's the best way to try the brands you showcase here?
Other than knowing someone who has one, the only reasonable option you have for DTC is if you have the chance to "tour" the facilities... whether headquarters if they're made overseas or production facilities... they usually have demos, or an employee who is your size, riding the same or similar. Of course, the expense of traveling to such a facility may be a factor, but I always consider it if drive time is within 8 to 10 hours. I mean, what better road trip can you think of??? 🙂
Just curious… if high cost were not such a limiting factor, would you consider promoting a full suspension ride? I’m considering purchasing a steel enduro frame and adapting it for bikepacking. Myth Cycles in Durango sells a nice frame called the Zodiac for $3K.
I own nice TREK full suspension MTB and a "Shulz moms favorite" steel rigid bike. Which is predecessor to this "wilde" bike. Mostly the same but it came back in 2014. Long story short i've been using full sus less and less. At this point its on tubes. Cause i cant be bothered changing sealant for 5-6 rides a year. As for steel bike - i've done about 7-8k miles on it. So for my needs rigid bike is way better. Even as full suspension is actually lighter.
One thing is certain. The Bicycle Industry will always be trying to create the latest new fad. This is basically my 1996 Saracen Forcetrax (Tange Chromo). but with Disc Brakes (I swapped my Cantis for V-Brakes). WHat next? Twist-Grip shifters and Toe-Clips?
Honestly, so what? Let's say we'll be charitable and say that the Saracen is the same (despite different brakes, tires and geometry)...They’re not making the Saracen anymore.
Not all MTBs have developed into a full suss race machine. Hardtails are still out there and are awesome! Let's not pretend the only option between a carbon ride bike and a full suspension MTB is an ATB.
I had a hard tail and sold it. No need for the added weight and maintenance of a suspension fork. Believe it or not some people don’t want a suspension fork.
@Path Less Pedaled fair enough, that makes sense. I suppose my comment was more around the fact that the bike industry keeps coming up with new terms and fads when a hardtail someone already owns does this job well. Especially if you can lock out the suspension so the fork essentially becomes rigid anyway.
I am starting to think that I am just not very sensitive to some geo stuff. I have a Ragley Big Wig with 150mm fork so the head tube angle is 64 degs. I personally don't find it floppy at all on climbing. I mean riding around town the Minions roll really slow but other then that it doesnt bother me. I am building an Atb with a 66 deg head tube angle with a rigid fork and faster rolling tires.
@Path Less Pedaled fair enough. I do have a gravel bike too. Nothing fancy just a Cross Check and I am not saying I don't notice a difference. It is faster due to weight and tires. Dropbars are nice for some rides but I just don't find my mountain bike that much more floppy on climbs.
