@@Nob911 Dol-Guldur, Beren and Luthien, Queen Beruthiel, the pits of Barad-Dur, Ungoliant and her children, the fact that Sauron's an actual necromancer with a posse of wraiths. There's already a lot of gothic/horror elements in his work, I just wish we had a novel that focused on them.
@@Nob911 Gothic Horror is an umbrella term that covers fiction combined with horror and death. Dark fantasy and gothic horror are considered synonymous in many different author's works, and seeing something like Dol-Guldur juxtaposed against the Shire or Beren's descent into "Hell" compared to the hobbits meeting Tom Bombadil would definitely classify them as the horrific chapters of the Middle-Earth saga. The Black Riders in Fellowship were designed to not be much of a physical threat at first, since the hobbits don't come into contact with them until Weathertop, but they're meant to be a terrifying, imposing obstacle, much like monsters in classic gothic horror books, namely Dracula for the beginning of Bram Stokers book.
Sauron: Beaten by a dog, captured by men, drowned when their island sank, beaten by men and elves, beaten by hobbits. He was always getting his butt handed to him.
Makes you wonder if he wasn't the underdog all along. Someone should write a story from Sauron's perspective where's he's rather like Lucifer from Paradise Lost
@@Eagle09ize And how many kings and heroes, mighty nations and armies he brought down during his service for Morgoth and later as Dark Lord? How many years he would forge the fate of great parts of Middle Earth? How often he tricked even the strongest opponents? He was defeated, yes, and more than once, but in most cases to a really high price, and he did achieve a lot.
In the chapter "Journey in the Dark" the Fellowship is attacked by wolves after they climb back down from Caradthras but before they enter Moria. These wolves attack during the night, but in the morning there are no remains of the wolves they killed. Legolas' fired arrows look as though they haven't been used, and Gandalf says they were no ordinary wolve hunting in the wilderness. He even refers to one of them as "Hound of Souron" and in his spell uses the elvish word "ngauroth." A fairly strong argument could be made that the Fellowship were attacked by werewolves at this point.
I agree. I was looking for someone to bring this up. I think there is strong evidence to suggest that these wolves were more than regular wolves and were most likely werewolves.
@@djk89 Well, the creatures in question are named 'wargs' at times. There's a distinction. The entities the Fellowship supposedly killed and hence disappeared were more ethereal than corporeal in nature. These are the wargs. Werewolves on the other hand, were probably more corporeal than ethereal yet _inhabited_ with spirits that gave them greater awareness. However, they were not humanoid in any way physically in the vein of modern horror genre. Werewolves were more like dire wolves possessed of foul spirit; evil beings in large lupine form. I don't think many survived the War of Wrath and if they did there weren't any left by the end of the Third Age, assuming they had a supernatural lifespan. Another possibility is the wargs were remnant werewolves but have begun to 'fade' by the Third Age (speculation), giving them a less than pure physical existence while retaining the ability to inflict grave harm, possibly through augmentation by Sauron's power.
@@jamesaron1967 or those wolves were ust an illusion casted by Sauron to bring fear and to drop the morale of the fellowship. Because Wargs have physical forms as you can see the Orcs are riding Wargs hence called the Warg-Rider.
@@keizoxd5623 Well, if Sauron was directly employing illusion to create the wargs then that would indicate that he knew the whereabouts of the Fellowship at all times. It would have been relatively easy to apprehend them using the Nazgul had he known exactly where they were. I think the wargs were semi-corporeal evil beings that came across the Fellowship, possibly because the Ring was calling them. If they were fully physical creatures then their remains would have been found. I need to reread that chapter to get a better picture of the encounter.
In Lord of the Rings Online, there are vampire-like females in rough places like Angmar and Moria. There are werewolf-like males in cold places like Forochel and Misty Mountains. I guess the Silmarillion is where they got their inspiration.
"O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life" - aww, just what my mom used to say to me at bedtime :)
There’s also an enchantment on him that allowed him to speak on only three occasions in his life, he has some pretty profound advice for Beren and Luthien as he lay dying. Beautiful and sad stuff indeed.
I would say that title goes to Fingolfin, he was an elf who walked alone to the gates of Angband and then challenged a literal God to a duel and managed to wound him like seven time before being killed.
Tolkien loved Beowulf. In fact he is the main reason we see it both as literature, and an important historical piece. Beowulf is one of the oldest pieces of British literature. Historically it shows customs, beliefs and values of the people in it of that time period. For example, it's mixture of pagan and Christianity. This shows that Christianity was becoming more prevalent, while still holding onto the old ways.
Morgoth: Here comes my mightiest servant Sauron, who got beaten by some elven maiden and her trusty hound. Sauron: Hey, not fair! She put a spell of blind on me. Morgoth: Was it a spell? Or did she simply put her cloak over your head? Sauron: I choose not to answer that question. By the way didnt the same elven maiden put you to sleep in order to steal from you and got away with it? Morgoth: I choose not to answer that question.
Vampires are some of my favorite monsters. Even though Tolkien doesn’t fully describe what exactly his vampires are, I am still glad he added them in Middle-earth. Happy Halloween everyone! 🎃
If we follow the pattern of Mandos and Sauron creating monsters as ruined and corrupted versions of 'true' creatures... It is possible that they were intended to be counterpart to the Great Eagles.
@@michaelatanasio223 I always thought the Fell Beasts were supposed to be that counterpart? Though, I suppose both could be - after all, trolls are fucked up Ents, and they have various forms based on where they live/evolve.
That sounds interesting. When it came to werewolves, I imagined them as wolf-like monsters possessed by fallen Maiar. Is that theory alright? I remember somewhere in The Silmarillion that werewolves embodied “fell spirits,” and this made me think those spirits were fallen Maiar.
@@danewilliams4041 I remember a thread on Reddit... one guy had the idea that werewolves were wargs with the Fea of men whom Sauron converted to Morgoth. Regardless, I like to think there is some higher being (whether it be man or Maia) within these creatures.
Tolkein probably went with the original meaning of "werewolf", that being a wolf that acts as a replacement for a man (just as weregold, or weregild, was gold that replaced a man).
As I remember, in the silmarillion it's said that Sauron not only took shape of werewolf when he fought Huan, but also as serpent, yet he cant beat the hound of Orome before at the end he flew away in vampire's shape. The Beren and Luthien story is so great!! Yet my favourite character of this story is Huan. The hound of Valinor. He was faithful even when Celegrom take him exile from Eldamar into Middle Earth. But he choose Luthien over his own master untill the end. He not even talk to other people save Beren and Luthien only. Faithful and mighty creature!
Honestly Huan was a coward. He fled when he faced Sauron at the bridge. He catched Sauron by his throat when Sauron got stunned for a second by Lithien's magical cloak. So if she couldn't throw her cloak to Saurons eyes on time, Sauron would slay Huan and then Luthien easily
Excellent video Master Yoystan! Two very iconic creatures made purely new in the Legendarium. I think like you said that Thuringwethil could've been the Mother of the Monstrous Bats that lived in Middle Earth and that such Bats were at many major battles of Middle Earth such as the Battle of the Five Armies. As for the Werewolves of Middle Earth I'd imagine that over time they became the Wargs of Middle Earth and only the few Werewolves that remained would've been close to Sauron as personal hounds in the Tower of Barad-Dur.
Thank you, my friend! Those are some really interesting thoughts! Indeed, Thuringwethil may have been the mother of bats as Ungoliant was the mother of spiders! It is a possibility for sure!
@Samuel Dimmock Not in the fact that he created them in that time (after he was beaten by Luthien and Huan), since Luthien disguised herself shortly after that as the vampire Thuringwethil (as far as I know the only named Vampire ever beside Sauron when he choosed that form). So vampires were already part of Morgoths forces. Maybe she was the "mother" of them. But I could imagine that he created them before in a similar way as werewolves were created or later the "mounts" of the Nazgul. That he took living beings and formed them by magic and the use of dark spirits to transform them.
well that was definitely awesome and on-theme! I always liked the wolves of Tolkien. Vampires are a dime a dozen in fantasy, as are the werewolves like in Harry Potter, but Tolkien drew on the old European tales from the days when people didn't add shapeshifting or exotic powers, wolves in the woods were scary enough, and I like that in a world of Ainur-level spirits, he wrote wolves as real threats without making them silly. also, the logo art is SO FREAKING COOL!!!
I always hate how in a lot of fantasy books and games real beasts get treated as little more than warm-ups to fight monsters. Like, dude, actual wolves and bears and snakes and things are frickin dangerous enough!
its not that we dont have anyone like him its more that there are so many people like him but the best are drowned out by the numerous creators who make the endless amounts of generic fantasy book
For a possible video, could you please show how the map of middle earth has evolved over the ages? I'm very familiar with the map at the time of the war of the ring. But quite often as I watch your videos, I get confused as you reference places on the either only exist in previous ages or were re-named in later ages. Or alternatively can anyone in the comment section point me to any online resources that do the same thing.
Check the silmarillion, mine has a map of beleriand in it. Beleriand encompasses what is called middle earth in the 3rd age, but is maybe 3 times as large. There is a war between the valar and morgoth at the end that destroys much if it, leaving middle earth the only visible portion. Thats where taur nu fuin and doriath and the other named places are, not in middle earth.
I believe Werewolves and Vampires were lesser Evil Maiar given physical form by Morgoth. They bred with regular wolves and bats to produce monstrous offspring. Over time their offspring became less sizable and monstrous and more like regular animals. So by the time of the third age, most had become the Wargs and Giant Bats that served in goblin armies.
I looked up a video to clarify a few things about this series. I had only watched the films and was curious about the language created for the books. I went down a rabbit hole on your channel and it lead me to purchase and read the lotr books as well as the hobbit and now im on Fall of Gonodilin. I just wanted to thank you for inspiring me to read. I went most of my life without realizing how much of an escape reading can be. Its literally like living in another world/dimesnion. I feel jaded knowing I could have been reading my whole life. This is a weird rant, I know. Im not illiterate or anything I just never actually took time to read a book.
I kind of imagine the vampires of middle earth are very much so the classic Dracula vampires, and can shape themselves like a bat and make flight when needed. It's more or less my own headcanon, but I like the idea of Sauron being able to be a bit of a Dracula.
I believe that Tharingwythil was a Maiar of minor power that served Sauron. I believe that because the being held a position of responsibility that was before any of the living mortal servants of the enemy and the level of trust and responsibility to be a messanger between himself and Melkor says "Shes a Maiar".
Pretty sure the wargs (war wolves) in LOTR are descendants of werewolves, just given a new name. It's also likely that they are less powerful and intelligent than the werewolves of the eldar days, as the dark spirit that morgoth possessed them with likely faded considerably after his demise. Wargs retain some of the size and viciousness of their ancestors, but have reverted to a more bestial state over time
I always thought that Sauron might have managed to capture one of Orome’s wolves during the War for the Sake of the Elves and corrupted it. That’s how the werewolves were so great.
I always learn new info from your channel, and I have been a Tolkien fan for ages having re read his works multiple times. Never knew he brought in vampires. Thanks; Happy Halloween!
It's natural that with so little actual author's written information, much on that topic would be in large part speculative. Werewolves and vampires used in Tolkien stories are incredibly fascinating though. Thuringwethil, and werewolves of Draugluin's brood (it may be part of the werewolf traits that they have poisonous bite, though it may be something only attributed to Carcharoth, who specifically had "venom of Morgoth"). I also often wondered about connection between ordinary wolves, Wargs and Werewolves, we certainly know there should be natural animal wolves out there (also dogs in Middle-earth had to come from somewhere ;)) and how they were used in breeding new kind of demonic creatures, Wargs and werewolves are differentiated by Gandalf in Third Age when he speaks of Sauron's servants. I wonder also if the vampire connection is not seen (probably unintentionally) with the 'great bats' of The Hobbit book, who knows maybe just like giant spiders (the sapient ones) are demonic offspring of Ungoliant, maybe those blood sucking huge bats were related to Thuringwethil? Hehe. "They could not stand that, nor the huge bats, black as a top-hat, either; so they gave up fires and sat at night and dozed in the enormous uncanny darkness." The Hobbit, Ch 8, Flies and Spiders "'Halt!' cried Gandalf, who appeared suddenly... between the advancing dwarves and the ranks awaiting them. ... 'The Goblins are upon you! ... Behold! the bats are above his army like a sea of locusts.' ... " "Soon ... the bat-cloud came, flying lower, over the shoulder of the [Lonely] Mountain, and whirled above them shutting out the light and filling them with dread. ... " "Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken. " The Hobbit, Ch 17, The Clouds Burst Of course it's completely my own speculation but I kind of like this idea :). Other works of Tolkien more obscure ones like Lay of Leithian may indicate some things for example Carcharoth in Lay of Leithian says: "Though wingéd creatures to and fro unnumbered pass here, all I know. I know not this. Stay, vampire, stay! (245) I like not thy kin nor thee. Come, say what sneaking errand thee doth bring, thou wingéd vermin, to the king!" But it's only a funfact.
Reading the silmarillion, I realize how pathetic Sauron is compared to Melkor was. One defeated a numerus of mighty elf lords and warriors and only got finally defeated by the Valar while Sauron got cheated by hobbits and their fellowship :D
I was imagining an army of Werewolves after you had mentioned in one of your other videos about how other werewolves fought under Morgoth, then Sauron lost the ability completely.
Honestly no. He didn't lost the ability of shapeshiftig completely. He only lost his "fair form" after Akhalabeth. There is no any quote which saying Sauron cannot do shape shifting again. He just didn't need to became a wampire of a werewolf because he had massive armies to fight against his enemies
Can you do a video on the lesser characters of lord of the rings and what happened to them after the war of the ring such as elronds sons, faramir, prince imrahil, celeborn, glorfindel ect ect plz I wouls love to know what happened to them all
7:27 I never thought about this before but as it was read aloud it made me wonder, did Morgoth actually feed the Carcaroth part of his own hand? I used to think that it meant that Morgoth hand-fed the wolf but now I am not so sure. Hearing it read aloud puts a different spin on it.
Shadowofchaos 89 you can read all about their battle in The History Of Middle Earth! The second book has the old tale of Berem and Luthien and Tevildo is totally there!! Is really interesting!!!
Is kind of anticlimactic!! Tolkien never like to describe his epic battles (the only truly epic battle describe with details and so amazing is the old version of The Fall of Gondolin, it’s epic!!), so is like a paragraph of battle between the two of them and then Tevildo escape by climbing a three (really, that was kind of lame) and is made to give his collar to Luthien and his spell to bind the cats at his will, and is explained that this is the reason that after that cats always run from dogs ( that part is kind of cool)! The original old history is so different, Berem is an elf! But Tevildo’s palace is kind of really cool and interesting!!!
I suddenly wish that Tolkien had included such creatures in Lord of the Rings to do battle alongside orcs, trolls, and the Nazghul. It's too bad he never actually finished any of his other stories (Silmarillian?) and all of his other books are based off the notes his son collected.
I think the Wargs must be related to werewolves, given the way their corpses disappeared after the fight in FOTR, leaving Legolas' arrows behind - which shows that they can't just have been carried away.
You know it's a really interesting thought that Sauron may have stayed in his Vampire form until Morgoth's downfall, implying that he thought he'd be forever disgraced by his master, therefore fleeing in advance...
Its not what happened. According to Tolkien's Lay of Leithian book, Sauron, went to Taur-nu-fuin _to establish a darker stronghold._ "A vampire shape with pinions vast screeching leaped from the ground, and passed, its dark blood dripping on the trees; and Huan neath him lifeless sees a wolvish corpse- *Sauron had flown to Taur-na-Fuin, a new throne and darker stronghold there to build.* (J.R.R Tolkien, The Lay of Leithian, p128-129) Also when Luthien tell Morgoth that she was Sauron's messenger, Morgoth replied that he(Sauron) has recently sent one so why would he do in such a short time again. It means Sauron used to send messangers from his new stronghold in Taur-Nu-Fuin to Angband. He was still the supreme commander of Morgoth's armies
Love that they are in the legendarium, but I'm glad that he didn't overuse them! What a great topic for right before Halloween!!! Thanks for the great vid!
The "Vampires" in Tolkien's world are almost certainly giant bat-like creatures that drink blood. Just like his "Werewolves" don't shapeshift (unless you count Sauron as a werewolf). He drew on German, Nordic, and Celtic mythology (and possibly contemporary popular English adventure novels?), but not (at least that I know of) on Eastern European folktales, which is where our concept of vampires comes from (though, we can assume he was familiar with the modern concept as well since Bram Stoker's Dracula was published back in the 1890's). Also, there was once a tendency in British English to refer to a bat that drinks blood as simply a "vampire". There's a Patrick O'Brian novel where Dr. Maturin picks up a "vampire" when his ship touches port in Brazil, and there are no supernatural events in any of his books. Plus this would also make sense in the context of the events in This Silmarillion. Sauron is on an island full of wolves, and he's banished and has to leave. So he turns himself into a giant bat to get off the island.
So sad that Tolkien didn´t developed better the origin, nature, deeds and fate of the Lady-Vampire Herald of Sauron rather than just a brief mention at the Sillmarillion, and that Luthien disguised herself as her to infiltrate inside Angbad to take the Silmaril from Morgoth. I hoped that she might have had either a secret unknown fight and defeat against Luthien in a magical female´s fight and so that´s how she was able to disguse as her, pretty much as Beren got disguised as werevolf because got also involved against them, or either she fled away having a pretty much dark and unknown fate as Ungoliant, but also then being a third party of evil source in the world aside Sauron after Morgoth´s demise.
Great Video I thoroughly enjoyed it. When I read the Silmarillion I had interpreted the explanation of Werewolves as wolves with malicious spirits as the origins of Wargs, because Wargs themselves are quite sentient as well as malicious. I have a long road ahead of me before I am to ever become a Lore Master for this beautiful world that Tolkien created and Lore-Wise I have only read the Silmarillion and Parts of the Return of the King's Appendix, I was wondering if you had any suggestions for more lore material written by Tolkien?
"The History of Middle-earth" in 12 volumes, edited by Christopher, contains basically everything ever written on ME by his father. "The Book of Lost Tales", now the first two volumes of the former, was published separately earlier, before Christopher gave up on polishing the material. Concerning the specific topics of this video, "Beren and Luthien", also edited by Christopher, expands over the Silmarillion version.
@ forgalzz Thx. I'll look into that. Looking back in my copy of the Silmarillion I also noticed a "more books by JRR & Christopher Tolkien" Section so I think I'll also check those out. There seems to be a lot of them, which is nice. Post Script. Just looked at those books, they look VERY nice thanks so much for the help :)
I love Werewolves they're the best and I like Werewolves more than Vampires. Werewolves can go in the light of day and not get burned they also can do things Vampires can't do.
This sounds like a good halloween based DLC for the next EA Lord of the Rings game. Although the fellowship didn't encounter them, Gandalf said they were still there. I kinda hope the next EA LOTR shadow games has more variation of enemies. Namely the human ones; Easterlings, Corsair Mercenaries, and Men of the South, Numenorean Black Imperials, as well as orc and goblin designs based off of different movies and artists (Ralph Bakshi orcs, Rankin Bass orcs, various illustrations and fan art). They should probably focus on making it look like the Peej movies but certain underlings and captains could take heavy influences from other sources. I wouldn't even mind them hunting down the alluded to "Dwarves of the coin" that helped mordor with the human slave trade. Sort of a Middle Earth Mafia to take down.
Honestly Sauron were about to slay Luthien and Huan. Also Huan fled when he first faced Sauron on the bride lol. Huan has no chance against werewolf Sauron if Luthien couldn't throw her magical cloak to Saurons eyes and make him get stunned for a second. Also I wonder why Sauron didn't burn Huan with his flaming hands? (Like what he did to Gil-Galad) 🤔
Your said a lot about other readers, but did you forget Saurman reading a tragedy about a family?!!! Thanks for the video mellon...Your videos are very enjoyable for all, and really help out my week!!! Thanks again for your videos...Until more of the Adra History...Marion Baggins Out!!!
When Luthien disguised herself a Thuringwethiol, this means A: there was no fear of Thuringwethil actually showing up (so we assume she was dead), but B: the forced of evil were not surprised to see her (so we can assume she is not dead). SOLUTION: Thuringwethil was an idiot with no sense of direction who got lost one day. At roughly Fourth Age 68, she returned to the Lands of Men in a cloud of shadow and terror, and asked: "Where's Beleriand? Did something happen? Uh, can you direct me to Utumno? Maybe Morgoth has a few answers? Uh, what about Sauron? I used to work with him. Why does the horizon curve now? Wait, is tthe king here married to that Luthien girl? What's going on? Help? Somebody? I've been in Far Harad for a while by accident." She eventually retired to a nice little home in a farm where people gave her books and kept trying to explain things to her. She eventually took up gardening and baking.
The main inconsistency is Celebrimbor having forged all the rings, not just the 3. Am I wrong? I mean theres Suladan who doesnt exist in cannon. But what else is impossible?
I take that back theres a million things the orcs say that they would not say in tolkiens works. I dont know if graugs and caragors exist, and the stuff they did with the palantir may or may not be possible in canon
I am working on a Tolkien Fan Fic. I am using the being Valaruin. She is a corrupt Maia who is clothed in the form of a vampire. Her powers are: the ability to enter into the past and bring powerful beings with her, though I do not know the full extent of Her abilities. : )
Fantastic vid as always, Yoystan! Don't know if if had anything to do with our discussion FB last week about Tevildo, thanks so much for this history of dark creatures.
