That is only because Sam had the power to negotiate and Otto didn't. Sam was dealing from a position of strength. Josh was just yelling at Otto because, well, he disrespects him.
@@paulcolburn3855even Josh knew he was out of line. It’s why Sam’s words have such power. In both cases, it was Sam who stepped in to bring Josh back to reality.
"Noel" is one of my favorite episodes; Josh's PTSD rings so true. He's finally feeling the effects of being shot, months after the shooting. And the rest of the staff hurts for him and doesn't tell him to "get over it"; they try to help him.
i havent watched the whole show yet, I'm only halfway through season 2. my mom has seen this show so I know a bit of what happens throughout the seasons. but it annoys me how they don't focus on josh during his injury and ptsd diagnosis. at least so far, he got shot, had the surgery, they showed him once in the hospital, once in his apartment, and boom he was back at work. now they dedicate one episode to say he has ptsd and barely ever mention it again? kinda frustrating. i know he's not the main character but he's a big character, please tell me they focus on him more before the santos campaign
@@brooke9643 I mean, you're admittedly only midway through season 2 at the time of this comment, which is shortly after he has his breakdown. It's not exactly fair for you to say they just brush it away. They don't make it a 'thing' in the series, but it's referenced several times throughout the series and by other people when they're describing Josh, what motivates him, etc. He also gets super amped up throughout the Santos campaign and you can see, even though it may not be directly referenced, that he's running on fumes (as we see in the clip above). I think there's a lot of passive implication about his stress disorder - it doesn't simply go away in the series and he's back to a dedicated and focused guy. He stresses out a lot more easily it seems, ruminates on things far too long to his own detriment, and it's certainly a shift from the attitude we see in him during season 1 - it's just not hammered in your face with him crying or having a panic attack or whatever. It's just there and he lives with it.
@@bethanybdavidson yeah thats true, i like how they played it off, like the episodes with Matthew perry, the santos campaign, and when the president gets observed by stanley. i still wish they would've directly talked about it more but the show is brilliant in that way. i think in the moment when i first watched the episode my love for josh was too strong and i wanted more screen time for him but if only i knew what was coming haha
Bradley Whitford is so good. Look at how he plays it like he's so stressed he can barely even keep breathing when he's going into his "listen to me!" spin cycle.
He's not acting, tho. He's a full-blown liberal in real life who is just one step left of Karl Marx. I have a hard time believing that anybody even had to write for him.
I love the way Leo walks back to his office to talk to Josh. There’s almost shame and guilt on his face, that he and others didn’t see it sooner. In a true situation, if someone goes through something this traumatic, and then shows significant signs later, it would be hard on those around that person to not feel some guilt that they didn’t step in sooner. Leo just looks so fatherly, wanting so much to help Josh. In the audio commentary for this episode, Sorkin said Martin Sheen wanted to just hug Josh, because they were all watching Josh in pain.
It's sort of like an intervention for addiction. The person hearing it may not want to hear it, and the people saying it may want to believe the person when they say they are okay. In the end, people should stop believing the addict and intervene.
Imagine if they'd used Josh to win a key battle and then aftwerwards, immediately dropped him into enemy territory for a few years to be tortured. Then expected him to love them and thank them. LOL.
I felt so bad for Otto here. He looks like he's about to cry, and incredibly defeated. Also, Sam is great. I didn't realize how much I missed him until this scene.
Avpsfan210 Otto represents both Donna and likely Josh himself: someone is so ready to serve, do anything to help, and wants nothing more to be than integral.
whenever I see this, when Josh is twitching, ready to fight but can't. Love it. Bradley Whitford is such a good actor. Rob Lowe too but this scene just emphasizes Whitford's skills I think.
The speech Sam gives Josh is, ironically, one of his best for all his time on the show. "cut through the reflexive demagoguery and timidity and make people do what they were sent here to do: actually govern".... I'm weak.
I worked at Witt Thomas when Brad was doing a sitcom for us. He and Jane (his wife) used to hang out in my office when they had the baby with them because I used to have stuffed animals at my desk and the baby loved to play with them (god that was like in 1998). I always thought he was such a nice, sweet guy and an incredible actor.
@tim murray Handmaid's Tale is pretty stellar. Other People, a movie he did with Molly Shannon was also great. I think he's really good in what he does, but he hasn't always chosen the right shows - or the shows that he's in don't get the right timeslot or publicity or backing from the network. Lots of reasons why television shows fail, but I think he's been putting out a fairly consistent body of work post-West Wing. I do agree that the role can sometimes make the actor, but this role was tailored to him by Sorkin, so he also, in a way, made the role. At any rate, he rose to a high level to make the role as great as it was.
I like how Leo sending Josh to his office didn’t feel like getting sent to the principle’s office, but more like “I am trying to save you, but you need to get out of your own way!” Or “If *you* listen to me you’ll be okay more.” Or perhaps “I’m saving you. EVAC! Help is waiting, you have to get off the battlefield.”
I like how Bartlett didn't say anything at all about it. He let Leo deal with the issue by himself instead of the big boss piling on Josh while he is dealing with what is obviously a nervous breakdown.
The relationship between Sam and josh, just like many of the other relationships on this show is what makes it special. The respect, the way Sam doesn't look directly at josh when he's losing it with the president and softly is the first to speak after it has calmed down. Not many shows have the little hidden beauties this show does.
I disagree. Sam won't look at him because he sees him as "other" no longer "one of them." Something apart - crazy - something to be shunned - less than the bizarre sense of perfection of the characters. Sam is cowardly. He speaks to him softly because Josh has become "one of those crazy people."The bagpipes in the lobby, Donna's incessant and tolerated stupidity and interruptions, these two things alone would be enough to trigger a stress reaction. These are not nice people here. Anyone who behaved like the character Donna should be fired -never hired, (although that is true of Margaret). And, that the trauma therapist leaves Josh with no one to contact "over the holidays," instead of giving him the number of the therapist, who, surely, would be available on that level, any time of the day or night - is heinous. That anyone wouldn't automatically see a therapist following the attack is also insane. You do see that it's crazy that everyone else goes on about their business as though there is no effect. This isn't a good thing to show.Josh wouldn't have reacted if the place wasn't filled with childish, narcissistic people who cared little for professionalism. And, I'll say it again, the script couldn't be more misogynistic. Then there's that whole stereotypical black thing going on with Charlie. And then there's that slut, and total idiot moron Zoe character, who, if anyone is honest, is only wanting to play with Charlie because he is black. No way in hell would that character have been accepted at Georgetown. Hell. Wouldn't have made it into any kind of program anywhere. I'm done now.
You had me for like...one, two...three...three and a fourth sentences before your refreshing reality check turned into a culture war broadside. No, actually, I'll round up to five because of your insight with Josh's therapy. And yeah, nobody should be taking notes on professionalism or workplace decorum from Donna and Josh. But you were way out of line with the Charlie and Zoe business, dude.
I agree 100%. I never missed an episode of WW. But Sam was the heart of the staff, and had the best delivery of both serious and funny lines. Rob was so perfect for this. The fact that he had a personal relationship with Martin Sheen, through Charlie and Emilio, made their scenes extra special. At least, in my opinion.
The show was originally supposed to be centered around him, but after the pilot screened, the network wanted it to be more of an ensemble ... Lowe never got over it, and that’s why he left.
People say that all the time. I've recently gone back and rewatched the show. For as good as the Rob Lowe era is, it had virtually nothing to do with him or Sam Seaborn. The character of Sam is often a complete after thought in most of his time on the show. It was *Sorkin* that made the show what it was.
I love the end of this episode where Josh just walks into Santos' office and says "this is Sam Seaborn. He's gonna fill in for me for the week, I'm taking a vacation!" To which Santos replies with barely a pause "I'd drive you there myself but I'd need a police escort"
This last scene shows why they should bring the show back with Sam as president. He was a great leader here, and he handles this with the same grace and firmness with which Bartlet governed. Great clips! Thanks for posting!
A very close friend of mine had PTSD and this feels very accurate to me. She would start cooking about an hour or so before and then lose it like that and there was almost no way to get her to cool down. It was very hard to watch....
I never saw it until now, myself. As a matter of fact, during Josh’s first meltdown in the Oval, I was having flashbacks of his later meltdown with Otto when he was Santos’ campaign manager, and was going to mention it until I saw how TheRyman25 segued right into it. Nice job. :) As an aside… it’s interesting that Sam is the only person there for both meltdowns.
@@storyofcory it hurts most because it's Donna who spots that he's broken the first time, and the second, she's sleeping with him and only adds to his stress by imposing a deadline to define their relationship, even deflecting Santos's concerns.
I was wondering why he wasn't yelling for Donna. Then Otto shows up. I'm like. Woah. We just fast forwarded five seasons. I shoulda read the doobley doo.
Five years later I stumble across this video again thinking, "where's Donna?" Then I read my own words from five years ago. Mind blown. I may have just looped myself.
@@ZachsMind Five years and you still hadn't learned to read the doobley doo?! I hope these past two years have made you rethink matters, you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and always read the doobley doo. doobley doo.
but here's the thing: Josh doesn't need a Josh look like deputy, he needs Sam like deputy, with the cool attitude that can calm him down in a passive aggressive way, rather then the yelling pissed off way, or the josh way. Sam is Josh's leo in a way, when it comes to josh both sam and leo behave in the same way. and that is the beauty of josh choosing sam over someone like him, someone that is not as high wired as him.
what i like about the second scene is we all need that one friend to tell us when our heads up our ass. cause when they say it its true because they are the only people allowed to talk like that to us
Sam's dialogue in this scene is every bit as great as anything Sorkin wrote. Props to Rob Lowe. Who knew that '80s pretty boy was actually a top-tier actor?
Sam, Toby, Josh, Will, Charlie are my favorite Bartlet kids. Well aside from the others in the West Wing but still. It's the perfect sibling relationships.
Been binging on WW and been reminded that this role for Rob Lowe resurected his career following a scandel that put him in league with Errol Flynn (if remember correctly). He was fabulous as Sam and pissed all over those who only wanted more pretty boy scandal from him. Thanks for posting been thoroughly enjoying Them.
PTSD sucks and no amount of talk therapy or thinking will get the body loose. It's a physiological state, the body, specifically the vagus nerve gets stuck in fight/flight/freeze until that state is resolved the ptsd will stay for life. Thankfully the methods to treat it are realizable and super cheap. Trauma cannot exist in a relaxed body and that's the key, learning to relax the body and strengthen the vagus nerve.
At least through season four the West wing the Christmas episodes are we seem to get a very special present from Aaron Sorkin these are beautifully written and beautifully acted stories. In excelsis Deyo and Noel are both at the top of my list of all time shows.
To be fair, it is a rare occurrence that someone in Josh's position can yell at the President of the United States like that and not only does Josh still have a job, but POTUS is MORE than willing to take the berating.
There's a quote from later in the episode. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZQJ6yqQRAQs.html Leo's been down in the hole before, he knows the way out. Such a great chemistry and dynamic between the two.
*I started watching this series about a month ago from now and i haven't reached up to this episode but i gotta tell here that not only these scenes are great but the collective effort of this whole team makes this series one of the best written and filmed series of all time. Surely Rob and others have played magnificent roles but Bradley's role is my most favourite. Josh Lyman is a character if Chandler Bing was promoted to the drama genre and that's why these both characters look kind of similar to me and may be that's why Aaron might have created 'Studio 60 and The Sunset Strip' with these two legends of Bradley Whitford and Matthew Perry. Love these legends and characters played by them. I feel very lucky to live in an era where i had opportunity to watch such legends in their iconic roles.*
Well said Jack. And I agree with every single sentiment, including the love for Studio 60. I don't know if Sorkin created the show with Perry and Whitford in mind, but I know that it felt like the show was created for every person on that screen, and that it was created for me. I've often said, I loved West Wing because it showed the conversations happening in the White House that I wished were happening, and the kind of people I wanted to believe were having those conversations. But on Studio 60, Matt Albie's writers room is where I wish my first grown-up job had been, surrounded by people who love each other and what they're creating together, even if they sometimes (or always) make for a rather dysfunctional family. I wanted to hug Wes as he walked off the stage for the last time. I wanted to sit with Eli Weinraub for 3 or 4 hours, as he reminisced about his days on the "The Philco Comedy Hour... Live from Studio 60." I wanted to tell Harry that if she'd actually said "I don't know" she'd have been fine, but what she actually did was try to tell everyone else to say "I don't know," and it was a slap in the face of people who do know - like she does, deep down. And Jordan and I would've made for similarly awkward BFFs. :)
Thanks for posting. One of my favorite scenes. You should have posted before Josh loses it, when he's denying to the therapist that he even yelled at the President.
Bradley Whitford is excellent in both of these clips, but I can’t help but notice how different the writing is. Sorkin always had a reason for everything, and he made the question part of the answer. That’s just not something many screenwriters take the time to do.
I can understand now. Josh was feeling the effects after the shooting and has pstd. Stuff like that happens and it can be scary at times. But if you got friends like Leo or Sam or the president that’s a good support system that’s all you need.
In the scene where he yells at Otto, Bradley Whitford geniunely looks like shit, and I say that with the utmost respect, ‘cuz I love Bradley Whitford. Whenever I see Whitford in the Santos post-election scenes, I can’t help but wonder how much of his dishevelment is a makeup job and how much of it is him literally pulling all-nighters in the name of his art/acting so that Josh will look like hell to the loyal viewers of the show.
Of all the characters on the show. I always felt like I identified with Josh the most. and he was the one I routed for the most. He means well but often times let's his ego get the better of him as seen in these clips. That I can totally relate to! and In the 2006 election, I was actually rooting for Josh more so than Santos.
It's interesting how the show was initially conceived as being staff focused, especially on Rob Lowe, then Martin Sheen came along and was the bigger focus for the early seasons...but in the end the real through-line was the staff all along - but Josh, not Sam.
On the other hand, you need someone aggressive like Josh as well. Josh was more hard-wired, but in some ways, he got things done as much as, and perhaps even more than, Sam.
I can get through it knowing Josh is about to get his richly deserved comeuppance :) Also that shot of Ronna looking concerned about both Josh and Otto is just terribly adorable.
Josh has scars. PTSD. And Bradley Whitford portrays it well. That isn't excusing his behavior. It's recognizing it. A victim's emotional scars heal more slowly, if at all. Many will have to manage the effects for the rest of their lives.
Lashing out and being highly abrasive with his boss/POTUS in what Leo called a non-conscious act... and then lashing out and being highly abrasive with an employee for doing something Josh himself had told him to do, and yet forgeting that... I think DSM would accept the word crazy here. Plus shortly after the first clip Josh was diagnosed with PTSD.
Throwing out the TLA "DSM" then saying what you said doesn't make you sound smart; it serves as indisputable proof of your ignorance. I promise you the word "crazy" doesn't get used in the DSM, ever.
Sam's time away from the "day to day" realm of the White House has definitely made him a better "people person" and obviously a better Deputy Chief of Staff. In fact as I reflect on the 7 seasons of the West Wing the failure of any of the senior staff to take "holidays" is the one feature missing. It would have been impossible for any of them to have worked the whole 8 years without taking time off.
I remember instances where so many characters were on their way out for even something as little as a weekend away but get stopped at the last minute, because duty calls.
They all understood it but Leo was the first to really get it Josh was suffering from PSTD. Being a vet himself he saw all the signs as clear as day, reprimanding or even firing him wasn't going to help, it might have lead towards something far worse.
Well I don't think Sam would be the same kind of deputy that Josh was, but I think half the battle in picking someone is selecting someone you trust and understand. And yes, Josh was a prick in the transition episode, but he was paying for severe lack of sleep at this point
Looking at this last scene - its very difficult to understand how Donna put up with him - except of course she loves him. Also we get to see how "really good" Sam would have been doing Josh's Deputy Chief of Staff position!!
well, in the first situation he had the whole having-been-shot-and-now-suffering-from-some-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-thing he wouldn't admit to...
I feel bad for Josh. Sam, Leo, and Donna and Bartlett were like the only people who cared bout how he really felt. Toby just was on his case all the time
