People forget that the oaths are not controlled by what’s reality but what the woman’s mind thinks is reality. It’s relative, it’s probably the best word for it.
yep, to an outsider looking in, the oaths may look simple and uncomplicated. But for Aes Sedai who have lived with em for hundreds of years, they would've found every little wiggle room they could find to use to their advantage, to execute their plans
Less about Moiraine, I’m thinking more about the sitter for the blue ajah that is forced to shoot fire balls at the white cloaks. Wouldn’t the 3 oaths make this impossible for her to use the one power as a weapon when her life is not in imminent danger?
@@JeffWoodworth-xr2ki yeah this was hard to rationalize in my head ,unless her suldam is top tier abusive and is always threatening her life if she's not a "good girl" 🤮
Except in this case, being miles away, clearly neither she nor her warder were being threatened in any way. It is a stupid scene and horrible thing for Moiraine to say. She is more evil than Lanfear in this series. She literally just murdered 1000s of people.
THATS why Ishy was wiping the powder from his hands! Thanks for explaining; wasn't sure if it was on purpose or the actor had forgotten to clean up before filming.
This is some damn fine nerding right here! Only thing I'd mention is thus far, the show has been telling us Lanfear with long hair is in the waking world, and Lanfear with short hair is in Tel'Aran'Rhiod. This doesn't mean that's a hard rule, just that it could change how we interpret other scenes in season 2 if they were to break that consistency at the last shot. I think lying in wait, with a web of saidar already woven, perfectly snaring Lanfear is not only satisfactory, but ideal to show why Moghedien is worthy of fear. Plus I just can't get over that performance, holy crap.
Moghedien was always my favorite. Such a great adversary. Also probably the longest running Forsaken character we spend time with in the books. Laia Costa is absolutely top notch.
One thing I want to add about the Ishamael question. Earlier in the episode when Ishy talks to Fain about removing Lanfear from the board, Fain remarks something like "how do we do that? The Great Lord has granted her eternal life." To me this is a distinction between her and maybe some of the other Forsaken. Certainly we know Ishamael has no interest in Eternal life. So to me I think either Ishamael does not have that ability or has intentionally chosen not to use the True Power as Lanfear clearly did in that resurrection scene. Great video!
@@roadtotarvalon I don't think she was chosen. More like forced to do it by Dark one himself. Because even tapping into his power without his blessing was extremely dangerous. With Ishi, he was indeed chosen, at extend that he was granted with even more in result
Totally agree re Egwene. At no stage did I think she overpowered Ishamael. Totally on the defensive, and starting to struggle with that. Basically her, and the Perrin, in last ditch defence was all - and we know she is a really strong channeller so still not a pushover, even for a foresaken.
In terms of the Oaths, my interpretation of the scene was that once the Seanchan attacked Moraine and Lan, she was then free to "defend herself and her Warder" by striking any Seanchan military assets. If she was limited to only the particular adversaries in front of her, then she would be essentially useless and easily defeated, as long as the Seanchan had a lot of soldiers they were willing to sacrifice until she was exhausted. Once they moved to withdraw, she had to break off her attack
Or she found a loophole, in living Rand die she would be doing the entire world to the dark one. Literally the entire world hanging in the balance.... Seems like the biggest argument....
alllmost truth....but what I believe is a better explanation is that while she did not directly attack the persons in the boats, she CAN attack the boats and cause the persons on the boats to die, she can the honestly say that she did not kill any person but attacked the boats.
I haven’t read the books since they came out, and whilst broadly understanding this fantasy world I’ve forgotten the plot details. My impression is that they’ve changed quite a few plot details but without changing the essence. I’m loving it. I don’t remember Ishmael being at Falme or dying there: as I remember it he was there through most or all of the books. Or am I misremembering?? However, I love the way they are portraying this character - along with Morraine, Ishmael is my favourite character as portrayed in the series.
Ishamael let everyone believe he was the Dark One himself up to a certain point also by using the name Ba'Alzamon, in fact Rand believed he had won the Last Battle over Falme when all he did was defeat Ishamael - which is by no means a small feat since he was the strongest of the Forsaken since the Breaking
In the books he died at Falme with Rand's sword through his heart, and then was back to life again at the start of the next book, with no explanation ever given
@@Wolfinator234 Ishamael is dead after Falme. But the Dark one brings him back as another person. Basically, his essence was put into another person, tho he took another name
Think I agree with your overall analysis. Like you, felt Egwene was just forming a shield to protect herself and Rand from Ishamael. You could see she was pouring all her strength out in the attempt. The shield of Manetherin belonging to a Hero obviously has its own powers. Perrin arrived with it at just the right time. What I wish is the show explained Nynaeve's not helping Elayne. I believe she felt the death of the damane even though Nynaeve wasn't a real suldame. She grabbed her neck when the woman was shot. There wasn't a full connection, but enough for her to be stunned by the feel of the woman's last moments and the pain from the wound. She kinda hinted it when she told Elayne she would have to help Egwene.
they've been showing how Nynaeve's inability to control her channeling makes others suffer: the yellow ajah Sister was captured because Nynaeve couldn't control the power level, and now the inability to channel at will means that she can't protect the Two Rivers people.
@YZedMB or she was in a stupor from feeling the suldame'a death. She was wearing the controlling bracelet when the woman was shot by an arrow. In fact, Nynaeve grabs at her own neck.
I agree 100% in what you say about Moraine being able to attack the Seachan. And there are many ways to go around the 3 oath, they can even "lie" if they think that they are answering to another question for example. Great video as alwaaaays☺☺☺
Season 3 Theories I believe what is different is that in Season 2, Rand is scared and does not want the responsibility of becoming the Dragon Reborn. However, the Battle of Falme changed Rand into realizing he needs to be the hero the world needs him to be, and he has friends who will support him. I guess in Season 3 Rand will start his training and learn how to become a great swordsman under Lan's tutelage. I think that arc will build up to Rand being worthy to wield Callandor, a male sa'angreal in the form of a sword. New Possible Forsaken Motivation Ideas Theories 1. Ishamael: He wants to break the wheel. 2. Lanfear: Reunite with Lews Therin. 3. Moghedien: Prove the world she is not a weak person. 4. Sammael: Enjoy an eternity fighting endless wars and battles (The Blood, The Chaos). 5. Asmodean: Perfect and immortalize his music and, most importantly, his invented music-weaving technique. Pass down his teachings to one who is worthy. 6. Semirhage: Have an enjoyable eternal life of torturing her victims. 7. Demandred: Surpass Lews Therin and find an actual purpose in life (-> Sharans?) 8. Graendal: Satisfy her pleasures and prove that there is no such thing as a moral and good person in life.
I've loved your reviews this season- thanks so much for taking the time to put them all together!! I was wondering if you could do a (non-spoilery 😅) one for us non-book readers that goes deeper into the history between Lews, Lanfear, and Ishamael? Or really Lews and all the Forsaken? It seems like there's a lot there, and the show hasn't divulged much yet.
You'd actually be surprised how little there is out there regarding their relationship because the show has really built upon it making it more fleshed out and nuanced. Most of it is "they were all jealous of Lews Therin" 😆 but yes, I'll definitely be working on stuff like that during the off season.
There's not a whole lot to tell tbh. I don't think the following will spoil any major plot points or lore dumps if the show does cover them. Most of the male Forsaken had a pretty petty beef with Lews Therin. Lanfear was very much the crazy ex girlfriend who basically went to Age of Legends Aes Sedai grad school with LT, but LT broke up with her after he got famous for undisclosed reasons, because he realized she was more interested in his notoriety then him. She became obsessed with getting him back, which is a big part of why she turned to the shadow. Book Ishamael was not characterized as being close friends with Lanfear and LT like he is in the show. More like professional acquaintances, or like that one professor from another department in the same building that you see around and say hi to occasionally, but who's also furious that you're getting all the grant funding he thinks he deserves.
These are all questions I’ve been wondering so thank you for addressing. Solid explanations for everything. Regarding the feats of OP strength not matching the books, I am ok with this adaptation . We aren’t going to have as many characters, that’s obvious. So my theory is that they are merging characters, like Moghedien and other women forsaken. And, I also don’t think we will see as many angreal, or ter’angreal. How they augment or utilize power is complex, and a bit wishy washy sometimes in the books. It’s probably easier to make certain characters more powerful on their own, and leave it at that. We need channelers of the Light to be able to rival forsaken, so they can each have epic OP battles at some point! 😃
I had no issues believing Moiraine did not break the oaths. As you say, Lan has just killed a whole heap of Seanchan whilst defending Moiraine, and by extension, all the other Seanchan are also a threat to their lives. She could also see the shielding in the battle on the tower - we don't know if she was referencing the shield being cast on Rand by the Damane on the ships or the shield being cast by Egwene to defend against Ishameal. One has to assume she can see both sets of weaves and believes that there are Aes Sedai on the tower, for which she could use one power as a weapon. She know Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne are in Falme somewhere, and could reasonably expect at least one of them could be with Rand given she should be able to see the weaves.
I've also seen the theory that Moiraine attacked the boats and not people... she didn't hit people with the one power, but an object... which would hurt people. It might be a loophole... not sure. Though, the Seanchan are a threat to every person who can channel... so that might be enough. If they're shielding someone, couldn't it be that another Aes Sedai is in trouble? I'm pretty sure there was some sort of loophole. Aes Sedai are very good at exploiting loopholes in the oaths.
Regardless of Egwene's supposed heroic shield, it would make no sense that the strongest living channeler, Ishamael, was limited to a bunch of small fire balls. Especially since we saw him toss both Egwene and Rand like ragdolls with a flick of his wrist earlier, as well as break cuendillar seals. He was definitely holding back.
Season 2 did exactly what It needed to do to completely win me over. It won't replace the books.... But I left the same kind of high level satisfaction I got while reading the series. Without giving away major spoilers from the books, I think they should go a different way, late game with Egwene... Robert Jordan had some notes that were quite different than the way Sanderson took it. And where they left the story with the Seanchan.... Was to be, one of the least satisfying aspects of the books... I think would even feel less satisfying on television.
Hey! If you have the details of those notes please share! I'd love to talk about them bc I always thought the route Egwene goes felt off (in the books) are you on discord or IG or Twitter?
@@roadtotarvalon I replied before.... Was just trying to let you know how to find me in discord... But it was removed... Not sure why but I guess RU-vid isn't like normal social media or something. I'm confused but whatever! Cheers
@@roadtotarvalon I really only have heard a little bit from RJ's notes about the Seanchan and Egwene. I hope someday they'll become archived online and available to fans.... There were an overwhelming amount of notes, written over the course of so many years! I'll just sum up little I've heard remember about Egwene, Mat and the Seanchan, before a spoiler warning. It's not much! Might be fun to chat about it on discord anyway, becauset's fun speculate... Let me know if you get ahold of a way to learn more. This isn't much, and maybe nothing you didn't already know. A memory of late to me does not feel much like what we would have got if Robert Jordan could have seen his vision through till the end! I'm disappointed about that. As good of a writer as Sanderson is! It's a Sanderson ending....I would have loved the RJ ending! Book Spoiler warning ahead: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Robert Jordan's notes had far too much going on to possibly wrap up even in three books. I think that was his problem with trying to finish it. And he wanted to finish it in one book! 🤪 Some points of interest: Egwene finding out she's pregnant after Gawyn's death (which is actually a meaningful and perhaps even make it possible for Egwene breaks the seals.) Aludra turns the dragons on the Seanchan (like in mats nightmare) and Tuon is a death fake out. (If that were to happen hopefully we don't have all those other ridiculous death fakeouts!) There was a note about Tuon possibly being collared I'm not being a big turning point in the Seanchan belief system.... That might have just been brainstorming though. I really don't know that much and it's been long enough where I'm forgetting a bunch of what I heard. Egwene's death was definitely not in Jordans agenda and the Seanchan was supposed to move closer to a resolution, with Mat, Egwene, Perrin and Egeanin all having big roles in that. I feel like Sanderson really got into his Perrin storyline because he had complete freedom to write almost whatever he wanted with that... I think it went a little overboard with all the twists and turns and more twists.... I understand why he made the choice he did as there was way too much to resolve. But I don't like it! Apparently there were too many pots in the kitchen too on that book that it was a nightmare to write. There was a lot of stuff in there with more Christ-like metaphors with Rand, That seem to have been toned down quite a bit. There was such an emphasis put on nobody knowing that Rand body swapped except the three and the bond... That in the 11th hour all of a sudden it was introduced that Alanna could just release the bond in an instant. The obvious thing to do would have been for her to pass the bond on to Nynaeive. That goes against everything we've known about the warder bond This whole time. I also think that Nynaeive's ability to see would have come into play when she was healing them. Whatever happened to Rand's aura bright white light unlike anything she had ever seen before?
Their were 6 Foresaken, that was a warning, even in the book none of the Foresaken directly tried to kill one another, my solid belief is that she had help and Lanfear felt it felt the raw strength, thats what made her afraid, they were working together, something she thought they could not or would not do.😂😂😂❤❤❤
Decided to go ahead and watch season 1 again.... And made an interesting observation. You know the beach scene where moraine and Lan have that beautiful bond scene? People wondering why did she do that if she had just masked the bond??? There's a scene in season 1 where Moraine is telling Alanna she read that there is a way to release the water from the bond. (I come in the series on introducing it all along rather than retrofitting that for the series finale like the books). In the season 1 finale Lan assumes that she had just masked the bond When she left for the Eye with that just Rand. Everything makes a lot more sense catching that line in the rewatch. She was protecting Lan she left for the eye of the world. She thought she would likely die there and she wanted to spare him. When she thought she was stilled she did everything she could to push him away, for him. To make him hate her so he would be free. In the books I don't even think a warder bond would be affected by stilling. And masking and unmasking didn't take using one power, from what I remember. So yes, Moraine had dispelled the bond to protect him. That makes so much more sense! It's also why she had to weave on the beach to bond him again.
"last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai." If Rand and the Dragon are "one" in any regard, you could argue Rand is "another Aes Sedai" directly, or as he has been prophesied to save EVERYONE, his gentling or even shielding could be considered an attack on all Aes Sedai. Earlier in the episode Moiraine mentioned something about letting a thousand innocents die to protect him, that that is the life Lan is choosing.
Moiraine is definitely the sort of person who could take an inconvenient truth and rationalize it away deliberately just to get around the three oaths. Mind over matter and all that.
Pondering over the differences between show and book is a nice way for a book reader, like myself, to enjoy the show. Wonderful video, I really enjoyed it. I totally agree about Moirraine and the 3 oaths. Even in the books, there's much leeway to them, because they're up for interpretation. When it comes to an Aes Sedai fighting with the One Power (a.k.a using it as a weapon), I remember one particular scene, in which the A.S charged recklessly in battle in order to feel like their lives were threatened. I kinda chuckled at that, such a goofy way to bypass the oaths lol. But yeah, Moirraine had plenty of reasons to blow up those ships (from her and Lan being attacked, to the Seanchan being a massive threat to all Aes Sedai, to the apocalyptic events unfolding a little farther ahead). The only tricky part to try and explain, is a collared Egwene collaring her own Sul'dam. Maybe as a means of subjugation it didn't register as something lethal at that moment? Lastly, the show has obviously changed some of the ways the One Power works and probably the power-level of the channelers.. I don't particularly mind, if it means the forsaken/baddies are more competent/threatening. Also, I hope they actually lean on the speed (women/skill) vs raw power (men/amount). In the books it was kinda relevant, but not enough, imho.
I'm fairly sure that Moghedien was meant to have pulled Lanfear into the world of dreams for that confrontation. Not only the lighting change is suggestive of something having happened, but also Moghedien is wearing a type of clothing (the loose collared white shirt) that we've otherwise only seen in the world of dreams.
The thing about the Three Oaths is that they are all about the perception of who has sworn them. If you believe a lie to be true and you tell it, you could freely speak that lie. THe same happens with using the One Power as a weapon, it takes some mental gymnastics to perceive something as threatening your life, but are not Aes Sedai adept at that kind of thinking? Taken to an extreme conclusion, she could potencially burn the ships and not even consider what she was using the Power as a weapon.
How could the Seanshan shield Rand when: 1. They could not see him from below the tower, and channeling from what we have learned is dependent on being able to see the target. 2. The Seanshan shield Rand as if linked, but they cannot link (at least according to book lore) Then again it looked as if the circle of men could link when shielding Ishamael in the cold open. Something that should require women in the circle to be achievable. Lore doesn’t seem to get in the way of narrative too much. At least it was an exciting tv-show this season, although not exactly wheel of time😅
1.I have no reasonable clue 😆 I can't suspend my disbelief here. Is it possible Ishameal was an illusion on the Tower and they were just feeling for a male channeler up there? Seems a bit too out there. Easier for me just to say, it's not the books and doesn't follow the lore. 2.Second example about the companions of Lews linking? Same. They changed linking lore in Episode 108 too. Honestly the math needed to fully breakdown all the combinations and intricacies with linking was never a subject I liked because it's utterly confusing. I'm not super knowledgeable in that department.
Good theory except valda considers himself seperate and above the othe children as a questioner..and would never let any order draw him away from his hatred..
I need an answer, because to me there is a glaring flaw in this episode. How did Egwene use the adam? The instant she thought about using it as a weapon, she wouldn't be able to touch it. I understand the authors want to make her so powerful, but this is a huge flaw. It's why she needed Elayne and Nynaeve to free her. Also, Rand was not necessary in Falme. Despite the Prophecy, he didn't declare himself in Falme. We see none of his training with the sword. He really could have been anywhere else in the world and had Morraine declare him the dragon in Falme. He saves no-one but is saved by others on multiple occasions.
The A'dam is tricky. The only way I could see it working goes back to when Nynaeve "delves" the A'dam saying it needs to be healed, and the only way it can be healed is by being put on a woman who can channel, so ergo the A'dam has its own desires that outweigh the rule of a women using it as a weapon against her Sul'dam.
@@roadtotarvalon that's a good try. But it's not the item, but the internal thought that triggers the pain. I just think it's a flaw on the writers who have their favorites. Egwene can't have someone save her. Perhaps they view someone saving you as a weakness (unless you're Rand, then everyone saves you. Then again, maybe they view Rand as being weak).
@@paulrace4339 I'd disagree. The internal thought that triggers the response of the A'dam wouldn't exist without the A'dam itself. The A'dam's first need is to go on someone's neck, everything else could be secondary to it's design.
@@roadtotarvalon thanks for the discussion because it really helps me to think about things. But her Adam, she is still wearing and it's connected to her Suldam. So the internal thought to use the second Adam as a weapon against her Suldam should have triggered the pain. Even with the need for the second Adam to become whole, the one she's wearing would have been triggered. What am I missing?
@@roadtotarvalon quite ok, thanks for asking. Not remotely emotional, thought my comment was a good mix of funny and simply true. It's an amazing book series, and an awful TV series set in a similar universe, using character and place names but not the story.
I agree with most everything you said, but haven't read the books so wasn't sure as to what seemed like the most plausible answer based off what the show has presented being the case. I do think Rand's channeling killed Ishmael, as in the flashback it was implied that Lars could kill Ishmael if he wanted to, but instead decided on imprisonment. Thanks for the video!
Egwene holding Ishamael off parallels the end of the Eye of the World book when Moraine holds off Aginor for a while. This is showing how strong Egwene has become under the training with the Seanchan - and her power level is significantly higher than Moraine.
@andrewfrank7222 literally everyone in the show says egwene is weaker than nyaneve. And no one is more powerful than the dragon lmao you're not making any sense buddy
Moiraine's mission by which she is oath bound to Sanche is to get reach the Dragon reborn and prepare him to defeat the Dark One. Her destruction of the Seanchan boats does the exactly that. Moraine could not refuse Siuan thus Lanfear had to overpower her for them to hit the Ways.
I would point out that moraine is still being held by the three oaths as of the start of episode 8 atleast. she said to lan that the only way she was able to tell lan that he was not her equal was because she felt he was far more. I take that as her still being unable to lie. That said I think the whole defending another aes sedai or herself while attacking the boats is a bit of a stretch to be honest. the oath says in the last extreme defense of herself a warder or another aes sedai. Now I know moraine would love to attack people using the one power but was that really the last extreme defense? It is hard to see into her mind but I didnt really see any threat to herself, lan, or another aes sedai that would be considered extreme last resort. She knew they were channeling a shield, shields by nature are not deadly. I feel this is more of a stretch for tv type of thing. If you think back to the books there are many instances where aes sedai are not able to attack armies attacking them til they themselves feel in danger. I mean i can see why they did it, its purely convenience for TV, but it does not meet the threshold that was set in the books IMO. My question to you would be in regards to the whole egwene/renna a'dam switch that happened. Should egwene even been able to pick the a'dam up? She obviously intended to harm Renna with it by collaring her and torturing her to get her own a'dam off. It came off as a cheap TV trick when they really should have had nynaeve and elayne come and get it off her instead. Since you know, they really didnt do anything in the whole episode.
Many lovely people in this comment section are talking about these questions. I'd recommend reading through. You missed the dialogue about the A'dam needing to be healed it seems. That should be your clue.
I have loved the show so far. No issue with them changing the plot of the books because it’s impossible to recreate a book like the WOT into a show down to every detail unless the show production had unlimited money. I also understand how Mats character got derailed because of the actor switching; which is unfortunate but not in their control. The one time the show lost me so far was when Liandrin was revealed to be black Ajah. This takes away from the character complexity (and stupidity) that we’ve come to know in the books.
I like the explanation for Egwene. I actually gave a smilar reply to a non book reader friend. Also, you could loosly say she was defending another Aes Sedai since Rand was shielded and Egwene was there. (Stretch but true) ********BOOK SPOILERS********* - - - - - - - - - - I'm pretty sure they are merging Semirhage and Mesaana into other or similar characters so i can see them adding their power to Moggy. I am also 100% sure Balthamel and Aginor are gone. Most likely Be'lal too. That brings us from 13 in books to 8 in the show.
I also think that they really, probably should have written in Moraine having gotten a hold of a Ter'angreal to perform such powerful offensive channeling, at such a great distance! If they wanted to show how she got it on screen, it could have been something Siuan was using and dropped to the ground when Lanfear overpowered her.... Or she could have gone to fetch it, whether she thought she could have used it or not.... But to have in such difficult times, during the months after she returned from the Blight. I get that it took her a long time to meditate and build so much power.... But they have to be really careful with power levels in the show! That definitely was pretty over the top for any non-aided Aes Sedai!
To be fair, in the books Moiraine was was the strongest channeler in the white tower. She was able to make fire walls that killed hundreds of trollocs, so I would say that was a fairly accurate portrayal of her power. Maybe a tad bit excessive, but close enough to what we’ve seen in the books. Haven’t read in a while so that’s just what I remember
Being a Darkfriend does not free an Aes Sedai from the 3 oaths. Sisters of the Black Ajah are freed from the oaths because they swear other oaths on the same oath rod. Morraine was already made to swear a different oath on the rod, so she may be freed of the normal 3 without being bound to serve the Dark One.
Makes sense that Rand channelled so much one power that the sword super heated, but damm.. The show made it seem like Rand just used the one power to heat the sword, the visual language in that scene needed to be a lot better
@@roadtotarvalon hm to be fair, Ishy just falls to ashes, so to me was clear he was burnt from within? Also, his palm is burned, also indicating the sword got a little hot 😁But I am also a book reader, so for us this might be more easy to catch than for non-readers
@@abdullahiajibola6636 Lews Therin was a leader of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. Rand is Lews Therin reborn. Therefore it's conceivable that Moiraine could convince herself that Rand is Aes Sedai, allowing her to use the one power as a weapon in defense of Rand under the three oaths.
My theory is that Moraine has seen the shielding weaves ...and as we all know that asesedai can be shielded...so moraine interpreted ra d as asesedai ....and his life is in danger...
May I say that I adored Moghedien's actress here? She's awesome, I'm a non-book fan, so I know very little on what to expect form the Forsaken, but I loved her madness and general portrayal
I also think that Ismael was not really relying on winning the day... Even gentling Rand wasn't necessarily a priority. Bing that he's already freed the forsaken. Unless he's the only one who speaks to the dark one ("Dark Lord") directly, He may have already reported and gotten counsel from him at the Bore. It definitely looks like we'll be seeing Moridin.... But I do think we'll get a couple opportunities to see Fares Fares, in cameos, in reveals, in Tel'aran'rhiod and visions and such. So I don't think we've seen the very last of the actor. But assuming they stay book accurate to Robert Jordan's ending... We're going to see a younger, altered appearance, version of the character.
He is too good an actor to only see for 2 seasons. I'm hoping he'll return, but under a different name. The Dark One has done that, resurrect a Foresaken and out into another body
@@carolbriscoe9337 I think you're saying what I was saying: same character...different body different name.....Which of course means also casting a different actor.... But I think there are ways of having Fares Fares get a few scenes here and there.... Forsaken can change their appearance with the one power..... Show his previous form in the dream world and visions... So there's no reason we can't see Fares Fares in a few more scenes in WoT! ... At least now and then.
I thought they were going to need bale fire, or something along the lines Callandor to killer Forsaken in the show. I guess if you channeled enough of the one power It could be possible. Rand is the Dragon reborn! So I guess I'm okay with that. Moraine learned bale fire, Even though it was absolutely forbidden, because she thought it was the only way to have a chance against the Forsaken.
Interesting. Can you come with a theory why Rand is so weak. The show is basically the Egwene and Moraine show. (characters I like) Nyneave was but in this episode she was useless
@@roadtotarvalon No, weak writing. Rand got no moments in the season. The Ishy fight was awful. That's the big moment and that's what they came up with.
Regarding the statement that Lews Therin, Ishamael, and Lanfear were friends and Ishamael's statement that Lews allowed him to be a killer, I believe that Lews Therin and his friends (Ishamael and Lanfear) initially fought the Dark One until the dark entity turned and twisted Ishamael and Lanfear into killers and his servants. It is incredibly sad because it shows how evil the Dark One truly is. For example, the Dark One might have tortured Ishamael with memories of his past lives while the Dark One might have made Lanfear fear losing Lews Therin to an extreme level.
@@roadtotarvalon Excited to see Asmodean because he joined the Dark One for absurd musical reasons to the point the characters might question what the Dark One saw in Asmodean that would make him worthy of becoming a Forsaken. I guess even the Dark One needs a guy to sing a song for him. The Dark One does have a twisted sense of humor in the books.
@@ryankwon8785 He did hand his mama over to a Myddraal, so I guess he's evil enough to win the approval of Dark One, but YES BRING ON THE BARD OF DARKNESS.
I think Lanfear will be the key, or will help the 5 to fight against the forsaken. Moraine will probably be judged by using the one power without the certainty of who was shielding from the tower. Maybe Siuan won't be at the throne anymore, and her and moraine will start their lives from where it stopped. Besides the power of the dragon reborn, i think this time all the five have a piece of that greater strength, and only united the power has its full capacity. Perhaps through the season 3 some of the 5 will have issues that will weaken the power (??? Just thought that, maybe too much). And i hope Liandrin gets punished, they need to discover her involvement with the dark side
egwene did not overpower ishamael. she blocked his attacks. those are two different things. the question should be why didn't ishamael send his projectiles around, under, over, etc. or just literally pull the floor from under them? lanfear to mog is like nynaeve to egwene. one has more power but one is more skilled? ummm... that last question. those people on the boat are darkfriends. they are literally in league with ishamael and the other forsaken. there was a scene that she sensed rand was being shielded. she also had an idea of what was going on there cause one of the blues told her before she left for that place. not to mention they were being attacked by people who had the same banner as those ships. but the better question is, is moraine unable to use water as a weapon? i'm pretty new to this so i don't know what they can use. i've only seen air and fire being used. these people were surrounded by water, why use fire when water would have been easier? or is water harder to use?
Ooh thanks for this, a deeper look into Egwene's defense & Ishy not really intending to kill. So many were throwing a fit over her overpowering Ishy 😁 but you can articulate it so much better than me lol But another thing, has anyone else noticed that the fire dragon didn't actually come from Moi's weaves? She started to weave towards the tower but before it reaches the distance ,the fire dragon clearly came out from somewhere else, looks like from somewhere in the area of the ships, and then her weaves just joined in at the tower as if to add to the fire. She even looked a bit surprised. My first thought was maybe Lanfear but she was at the foot of the tower with all the peeps so, no. Thoughts?
In an earlier episode it is revealed that the A'dam (collar) has needs of its own. Nynaeve has a talent for "feeling" ter'angreal out. The collar has a need to be healed and the only way to heal it is to put it on the neck of a woman who can channel. It's as if the collar interprets the act itself as an act of healing. Its needs may possibly override whatever Egwene feels.
@@roadtotarvalon but its not abt the object, its about egwene intentions, the object she is holding on her hand doesnt decide anything, its the object in her collar, and if egwene can decide to cheat her feelings on the object on her collar then why wait till she had the neck thing on her hand? she could just use any other object before, and if she couldnt cheat, and the collar thing can really interprate her feelings then its not possible to put another object to her master, no matter what the object in her hand thinks of, cause she is harming her. I dnt know if you understand what i mean.
The other forsaken was aobviously planning meeting with Lanfear so of course she had prepared for it, if she know her from past lives she knows her powers and something that would counter them, in exchange, Lanfear was not, she didn't tought the other forsaken were released so she was definitely bested but I this that does not eman directly Lanfear is "weaker".
How Ishy could broke all the 6 seals by himself when Lews Therin (open credit) told him that ever him could not open Ishy seal ? Rand open it with his power and a sa'angreal. Ishy is not as powerful as Lews or Rand. Thoughts ?
I have a question that I hope someone could answer. I am still struggling to understand how egwene was able to free her self. Since the collar first of All prevent egwene from harming her domani. So she must have believed it was harmless. Which she didn't secondly when her domani was collared renna was unable to hurt egwene as it should but how was egwene suddenly able to hurt renna since she was still her domani. Does anyone have any explanation?
In the books, I don't think she excells at it. I distinctly remember, although it may be "bad" memory as it has been 20 years, at one point in the books she is shocked at how apparently easy Rand can control multiple objects and weaves at once and how hard it is for her to do so. Be that as it may, it's annoying at how the show portrays it. Ishamael cut off Moiraine with a snap of a finger, we're talkimg magnitudes of levels of power and experience difference. Egwayne should have never stood a chance by herself. Not even a second. And the whole killing Ishamael was a terrible scene. Same for Mog vs Lanfear.
I don't remember which book it is, but hardened air is one of those Weaves that comes to Egwene almost unconsciously. At one point she makes a platform for herself and glides around on it with Bella. She's VERY strong in using air.
@roadtotarvalon There's one thing I'm still kinda confused about; how come no one saw the shielding Ishamael placed on Moiraine? Logain and Rand were the only one's to notice/see it? Can men and women only see the weaves of their respective halves(saidin/saidar)? I haven't read the books in over a decade, so I might have forgotten if this is the case.
I am waiting for an explanation of Banefire? basically what it takes to remove a forsaken from the wheel. Which if I am not mistaken is what Rand did with Ishmael.. Rand did a lot of imporvising if I recall.
Nope, I think that Rahvin was balefired by Rand in a Cairhen but that was already a Lews Therin reborn and a Morraine balefired Bel'al in Tear, as I remember Morraine is self taught on balefire...
Moiraine Knows Rand is Lews Therin An Aes Sedai... She can defend him... The Blue Aes Sedai on the top of the tower flinging Fireballs must only be hitting archers aiming at her.
In the books there are so seals holding the Forsaken, only seals on the Dark One's prison. Those seals are already falling apart due to the power of the Dark One and have become fragile enough to be broken without the use of the Power at all. @@roadtotarvalon
Hey guys I am having a doubt....in the starting of the season 2 episode 8 ishameal told lews "kill me..and we will dance this dance in our next lifes"...right..even if lews killed ishameal in early.. thats going to be with one power.. so since ishameal said kill me..he knows that he is immortal and he is going to be resurrected..so there is a good possibility that he might return in season 3 ..right ?? ( just a theory)
They may or may not even make it explicit in the show (seems important, but who knows)… But I wonder if the channeling flames into the sword to kill Ishamael was supposed to either explicitly be or to be a more implicit book-reference nod to balefire… I’m inclined to read this into it because… Why would channeling fire to heat up a sword cause someone to literally crumb into dust (whereas that’s quite what I’d expect balefire might do to a Forsaken [I’m only on Book 5, so maybe I’ll know for sure what happens soon, but so far])… In any case, it’d make enough sense as a show explanation. Whereas, we’ve never seen any reason to believe that channeling fire on its own magically turns the fire into something that would do they to a person (they can manipulate fire, but it’s still fire- a hot sword heated by normal fire weaves should still only burn &/or cauterize the wound)… And, I mean, maybe I’m reading more book stuff into the nature of show worldbuilding, but iirc Ishamael has called himself Ba’alzemon or something equivalent in the show, hasn’t he? So my sense is that, like in the books, he’s just a normal flesh & blood human body (even if there’s a high level channeler Forsaken soul in it, & that Ba’alzamon (the Dark One himself) simply projects into his body from his prison at Shayol Ghul… In any case, it makes more sense to me that something either spirit-associated (& hence able to destroy him on a spiritual/soul level), or something as special as balefire is presented (I see on the wiki that technically book balefire should use weaves of both fire & air to create it, but they might have intended a nod without getting that detail right). At any rate… You could be right that it was just him being such a strong channeler, that he was able to channel so much of the power that it didn’t matter what element he happened to wield (beyond men being strong in fire as well as earth)- he was hurt going to blow him up like a balloon with it until bursting… If so then that could’ve been better communicated, I think… But I would find it more satisfying if we find out he had (knowingly or unknowingly) touched in balefire or something else special like that to make it capable of what was depicted… *Especially* because he didn’t just turn to ash (if it was purely physical, then sure- maybe he just burnt him so thoroughly to a crisp, from the inside out, that he was just dust, like spent incense, afterwards- it’d be a bit cartoonish, but I could suspend disbelief; but they made a big deal about how Ishamael wanted to die permanently, to have his soul stop turning out eternally with the turning of the wheel, & his whole death scene was about how Rand finally gave him that release… So, clearly something special about the way he died was capable of killing his soul & not just his body… Clearly the turning to ash was just a physical representation of a spiritual annihilation, a final moksha, which getting burnt doesn’t do just because you get burnt with REALLY hot fire. Haha. So it would make sooo much more sense to me if they just said it was balefire, or something that would make it fit with the logic of the world. Using spirit weaves would’ve been enough for me (like, okay, he used spirit as a weapon to kill his soul as the physical elements can be weaponized to kill the body. Makes perfect sense)… But we could see the fire weaves, so that wasn’t it. In that light, them simplifying balefire to not require air weaves would be a much less problematic answer IMO, but as long as they contrive some decent explanation that will be better to me than just “Yeah, it was so much fire, his sword got SO FUCKING hot, that Ishamael will never be reborn again. 😆 Maybe he got stabbed in the solar plexus & that has some magical significance in the show universe? Lol. Anyway it’s fine, & I overall enjoyed the episode. Just thought that was an interesting possible explanation that I hadn’t seen discussed (in what little of people’s commentary I’ve seen).
Ishmael wasn't balefired, he was killed by a sword made of one power, there are later refereneces why Rand is wearing a sword when he can wrought one of one power. Btw. if balefired Ishmael can't be returned as Moridina and, as we all know. Moridin is a crucial for a sealing a Bore.
My ultimate question is Why did Landfear betrayed Ishmael and let Rand be proclaimed and why did she feel unhappy or threatened when the other forsaken are released? Will the Dark take back her magic for helping the Light win?
Thank you for your videos. I like them. Have you thought about making a video about the forsaken, how are they trapped and how were they released. I believe the show failed to show that, I am only a tv show fan and without the proper background it is something hard to understand.
The show is changing things, showing Ishamael breaking the Seals to release them. I do think I'll be covering more of the Forsaken though! Thanks for reaching out 💜
Didn't they say that Lanfear gift from the Dark One was immortality? Suian said that she was still held to the three oaths? I have a question: Rand gets this big nasty wound from the dagger and almost died, so why did the dagger do nothing in Fal Dara? Does it have a non-lethal switch?
Someone asked--maybe in another comments section--how Egwene could collar Renna when she indisputably regarded it as a weapon against her. The only loophole I can think of is the collar's own need to be on a woman who can channel overrode that limitation. Do you have another solution, Amber?
Re: Why Ishy died but not Lanfear, am I remembering correctly that in the show they explicitly state Lanfear was blessed by the dark one with immortal life?
Ishamael could have cut her off from the power with less effort than tossing aside an infant... there was some other goal here or he would have just taken the power from her with a finger snap.
Any thoughts on how Moiraine showed so much strength in the one power? I didn’t see her utilizing an angreal, yet she was able to weave huge weaves of fire at great distance, both attacking the ship and creating a dragon avatar. I don’t remember her being as strong as Egwene or Nynaeve in the books but it’s been a while since I’ve read them. Also Saidar users don’t have a strong affinity with fire. Not that they can’t, it just all seemed a bit much.
Haven’t read the books in a while esither but from what I remember Moiraine and Siuane are among the strongest female channelers outside of the girls. Also, the dragon reminds me of when she used the one power (I believe in the first book) to make a huge illusion of herself. I would like to think the dragon was just a huge illusion
Moiraine didn't fireball the deck of the ship killing the channelers. She attacked the boat from underneath. The Oaths CANNOT be broken. She cannot lie, she cannot use the power the manner of the Oaths.
10:32 I think the explanation for Moiraine‘s action is entirely different. She did not attack the damane, she did not attack the Seanchan at all. She simply sank their ships. That‘s not forbidden by the Three Oaths. It‘s a bit unfortunate that there were people on board of those ships. But she did not attack them. They were simply in the way of the attack on the ship. The Three Oaths have been chosen very carefully by the Aes Sedai. There are ways around them, as Moiraine has demonstrated when she gave answers to the White Cloaks in season one.
(Includes Book Spoilers, be warned!) 1) *RE: Ishamael Failing to Overpower Egwene* --- I really like your point emphasizing Egwene's ability to control multiple flows, and the "tree ring" depiction of her shield was a great observation. I _still_ think it was beyond Egwene's power to stand against Ishamael: Ishamael is the most powerful channeler to have _ever lived_ (tied with Rand/Lews and the Forsaken Rahvin). Egwene, on the other hand, is weaker than the weakest of the Forsaken. But _most_ importantly (to me) is the difference in _skill_ and _experience_ between Ishamael and Egwene. Ishamael has been a master weaver of _saidin_ for three millennia, while Egwene has been channeling for less than a year. I simply do not see his mastery being unable to overcome even a surprisingly-powerful weave from a novice, even weakened. I was especially frustrated by this scene because there was such an easy fix: Elayne and Nynaeve were present in the scene. Either could have linked with Egwene (admittedly we'd have needed more explanation if Nynaeve was the one), and that alone would have made Ishamael's struggle to defeat her far more palatable to book readers. Unless the show-writers were deliberately trying to make the statement that "Egwene is a stronger channeler than Ishamael", and I hope they weren't, I still don't think this scene made sense. 2) *RE: Rand Killing Ishamael* --- Assuming we're still getting Moridin, your emphasis of the nature of Ishamael's death is mostly irrelevant _unless_ balefire was involved (and, I suppose, that _could_ have been what Rand channeled through his sword, but I don't know how they'll make that clear in later seasons when the balefire weave is introduced): The Dark One doesn't need to "intervene" in time before someone dies, he is the master of Death and can resurrect anyone --- unless balefire has burned them out of the Pattern. But the fact that Ishamael simply stood there while Rand walked slowly up to him to kill him tells me the second theory is likely correct: Having seen his plans once again crumbling away to what was prophesied, Ishamael basically gave up in that moment, and decided to seek for himself what he sought for the Wheel: oblivion. This explains his apparent willingness to let Rand kill him, it explains why the Dark One didn't resurrect him, and it also aligns with Ishamael's last words before dying. 3) *RE: Moghedien vs. Lanfear* --- I have a different theory: Moghedien set a trap with the One Power, and triggered it when Lanfear tried to attack her. Note that the weaves do not flow out from Moghedien: They descend from the ceiling and rise up from the floor. A trap is completely in theme with Moghedien's use of the One Power as if it were spider webbing: Lanfear was a fly caught in the spider's web. It also aligns with what we know (and what was said) about Moghedien's character --- she strikes from the shadows, only when prepared, only when she is certain of her victory. It's this last reason that convinces me most: Of all the Forsaken, Moghedien is the _least_ likely to take the risk of beating Lanfear in a "fastest on the draw" confrontation. The only reason she would have stuck around while the other five fled is if she _knew_ she had the upper hand, and only a trap prepared in advance could have given her that certainty. 4) *RE: Moiraine Attacking the Seanchan* --- My problem isn't with Moiraine breaking her oaths, it's with the massive inconsistency in her strength with the One Power. To weave such destructive Fire ( _not_ Moiraine's strongest element) at such a distance simply felt like too much to me. Again, this is made worse because there was an easy way to fix it: She could have wielded an _an'greal_ to strengthen herself, as she often did in the books. Between Egwene and Moiraine displaying such strength in the One Power, I find it hard to imagine how those characters (particularly Egwene) will _grow_ as the series continues. If Egwene can already hold off the most powerful male channeller who has ever lived, what room does she have to get even better?
If you look to the books for inspiration, Moiraine holds off Aginor in a similar way. Agi is one of the most powerful channelers under Lews & Ishy, also, Egwene is also more powerful than Mo. It's not too out there.
@@roadtotarvalon I hear you! And, honestly, your take on the scene did a _lot_ more to put my mind at rest about it than anything else I've seen or read. But I think --- just from a show-watcher's perspective, forgetting the books for a moment --- that Egwene was _presented_ as too powerful in that moment. Ishamael's strength has _long_ been emphasized ("You have no _conception_ of the power they wield!"), yet just this season Egwene was struggling to purify some dirty water. I just wish they had done a bit more to retain the feeling that the Forsaken are an overwhelming threat against which our protagonists stand no chance --- at least, not currently. That both gives the protagonists room to grow, and raises the stakes now that there are seven of the Forsaken running around out there!
@@roadtotarvalonMay I ask: What was your take on Egwene being able to torture her sul'dam? Forget that, how was she able to _collar_ her sul'dam in the first place, when even _touching_ a jug of water sent her into uncontrollable physical spasms just because she _thought_ it could be a weapon?
BOOK SPOILERS UP UNTIL THE GATHERING STORM It's a bit like when Elaida attacks Egwene thinking she's a Darkfriend. Some sisters think Elaida to be Black Ajah specifically for that reason, but it's actually just Elaida who's convinced Egwene's a Darkfriend that's allowed her to attack her.
@@anthony449 Oh, if you haven't read it, you're in for a treat, especially if you like Elaida. She's only in a couple chapters but Moiraine gets off a zinger about Elaida's garish red clothing choices and it brings me absolute GLEE.
if Lanfear is evil and works for the Dark One, why is she helping Rand / Moraine? Its hard to believe she really needed Moraine and could have kiiled her easily. Lanfear also called for the Light to Save Rand once she was webbed up by Moghedien.
Maybe due to Rand not turning to the dark side, logically the Dark One wouldn't protect him, so logic dictates that Lanfear thinks it is still the Light that will protect Rand
@@roadtotarvalon Haha fair enough makes sense with world events, I enjoyed listening to your commentary as well. You two are a fire duo, riffing off each other so good!
