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THE WORST APCR vs Up-Armoured Panzer IV | 85mm APCR vs Spaced Armour | Armour Penetration Simulation 

SY Simulations
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The T-34-85's 85mm cannon would normally have had no problem dealing with a Panzer IV, but how would its relatively weak APCR projectile fare against the spaced armour on an upgraded Panzer IV?
Like many other designs of the era, the BR-365P Armour-Piercing Composite Rigid (APCR) projectile features a tungsten carbide core, however this core makes up only 13% of the projectile's total mass. The remainder of the projectile mass essentially doesn't contribute to penetration, meaning a lot of energy is wasted in by the design. For comparison, US APCR projectiles of the era had a core to projectile weight ratio of upto 50%. The BR-365P projectile was even an anomaly among Soviet designs, with the 45, 57, and 76mm versions having a more optimal ratio. This meant that the projectile did not offer much more penetration over the standard AP projectile.
Compared to standard AP rojectiles, other downsides that all APCR projectiles suffer from are increased velocity drop over range (due to them being full-calibre yet lighter than normal projectiles), poorer performance against sloped armour, and shattering/fracture against spaced armour. The required materials often made them more expensive to produce as well. With these factors combined, the 85mm BR-365P projectile would only be a better option over standard AP rounds against a target with near-vertical ~125-160mm* armour at close to medium range. Nearly no German vehicles of the time would fit this criteria. *The standard AP projectile would easily penetrate anything below this range (with greater behind armour effects) and the APCR would not be able to reliably penetrate anything above it.
The Panzer IV shown here is based on the Panzer IV D at the ‪@thetankmuseum‬, featuring applique armour. The outer plates are modelled as 400BHN High Hardness Armour (HHA), with the base plate being 30mm of Face Hardened Armour (FHA) -600BHN front face, 350BHN bulk.
Please contact for image credits.

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19 май 2024

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Комментарии : 125   
@velvetthundr
@velvetthundr Месяц назад
I’ve always wondered why American WW2 HVAP is better than Soviet APCR. Glad that was answered now.
@quantumsage4008
@quantumsage4008 Месяц назад
love this channel cause they actually explain whats going
@AdrianBVloggin
@AdrianBVloggin Месяц назад
@@quantumsage4008on
@tedarcher9120
@tedarcher9120 Месяц назад
Soviets had less tungsten so they had to economize
@signs80
@signs80 Месяц назад
​@@tedarcher9120 It was actually more to do with the APCR body design than the core itself. The US designed the sheath to be aluminum and didn't use the "arrowhead" design, instead opting for a design that was more shaped like a standard sharp nosed AP shell, but mostly hollow with a tungsten slug inside. This allowed lower drag and the aluminum reduced weight which increased velocity. The Soviets hadn't designed APCR ammunition until 1942 when they created some based on captured German shells so they were just trying to get something into service instead of optimizing performance
@WilliamStewart1
@WilliamStewart1 Месяц назад
Soviet ammo wasn't the best during these times, they were low on most materials.
@rossturner3650
@rossturner3650 Месяц назад
If it is possible, i think it would be really cool to see what different rounds do to things like cannon barrels and engine blocks! Love the channel!
@bfchristianbf
@bfchristianbf Месяц назад
Yup,im curious how well the engine block of some vehicles would hold against shells after if penetrates the back or side plates
@surfinboy23
@surfinboy23 Месяц назад
That would be very cool to see. You reminded me of the German "squeeze bore" tank guns. Where a 75mm projectile runs through a tapered barrel and ends up around 55mm.
@4tbf616
@4tbf616 13 дней назад
The barrel will turn black.
@schullerandreas556
@schullerandreas556 Месяц назад
It would be interesting to see soviet 45mm APHE and 76mm APHE against the upper front plate of an uparmored Pz IV D (30mm+30mm+20mm), an uparmored Pz IV F (50mm+30mm) and against a Pz IV H (80mm) from about 500m range. To observe if the uparmoring of the older vehicles to fit the H standard of protection actually surpassed the intended effect by creating the first "composite" armor by spacing the additional plates and combining face hardened armor and regular RHA. Or maybe the layering was worse than the regular 80mm thick plate of a late Pz IV H or J.
@Masterafro999
@Masterafro999 Месяц назад
That would be spaced armour. Spaced armour has technically been around for a while and in tanks since ww2?
@schullerandreas556
@schullerandreas556 Месяц назад
​@@Masterafro999 it would also be composite armor. Since the bottom hull plates on Pz IVD and F would be front hardened while the bolted on plates are RHA rherefore using different property steel types like a modern NERA element.
@Masterafro999
@Masterafro999 Месяц назад
@@schullerandreas556 I was being slow brained. You're right. What confused me was the fact that these mods weren't serially produced. The first serial production tank with composite armour was the t-64.
@schullerandreas556
@schullerandreas556 Месяц назад
@@Masterafro999 the uparmoring of old Pz IVs was not a field modification, the vehicles were shipped back to the factories for this as the additional weight required an overhaul of the suspenssion. So technically it was serial production. What disqualifies it from being seen as the first proper composite armor is that it obviously wasnt the intention to increase protection by using different materials. They just wanted to get to combined 80mm thickness. If it would have been their intention to arrange layers to increase the protection with the composit then ironically the plates would have been in opposite order with the first plate being front hardened for decapping, maybe even the second plate for the older models but the last plate which is actually structurally integral to the tank would be RHA to make full use of its elasticity compared to front hardened steel as a backing plate. For the first tank that purposefully used different material layers to increase protection that was produced in series I think you are right with the T64 and its quartz spheres cast into the front turret.
@JaHail-oy6vq
@JaHail-oy6vq Месяц назад
Well it's because it moved over 800m/s it means the distance is prob around 500 meters which T34-85 have the advantage but if it's over 1000 meters, PZ IV easily wins this one
@Darkel45
@Darkel45 Месяц назад
The shrapnel sure is gonna ruin someone’s day.
@MegaJani
@MegaJani Месяц назад
Major emotional event
@infernec
@infernec Месяц назад
oh no he got a cut on his finger
@Darkel45
@Darkel45 Месяц назад
@@MegaJani real
@Michael-uc2pn
@Michael-uc2pn День назад
Great now am I going to get all this yellow off me
@karlbarx1819
@karlbarx1819 Месяц назад
It's interesting how much the Pazer IV underperformed there. Though it'd still be worse in the larger scale with such a numbers disadvantage. Great sim as always.
@oohhboy-funhouse
@oohhboy-funhouse Месяц назад
The Panzer 4 came out ok, while it did pen, it wasn't catastrophic as the main body didn't get in, just the tip isn't good enough. But Spall people scream! Tanks have a lot of empty space, partitions and non-critical stuff in the way. Whenever we see up armouring it's done to a specific calibre, material availability and be good enough. Stopping it dead would be optimal, but the extra weight wouldn't have been worth it and does nothing for higher calibres.
@LiezAllLiez
@LiezAllLiez Месяц назад
Its not the PIV G-H, but uparmored D. Few pieces of plate, rather than 80mm of solid plate. Solid plate would have stopped the russian APCR dead in its tracks.
@nerd1000ify
@nerd1000ify Месяц назад
Crew isn't going to stick around in the tank when a red hot piece of tungsten carbide was just ricocheting around inside it. Even if nobody is seriously hurt, powder in shell cases might be smouldering and about to ignite, etc.
@EdyAlbertoMSGT3
@EdyAlbertoMSGT3 Месяц назад
​@@LiezAllLiezisnt spaced armor better at dealing with this though? Like in the Leopard 2A6 (I may be wrong) where they added extra thin plates to the turret to disrupt APFSDS
@candleman2123
@candleman2123 Месяц назад
I thought the D model (heh) actually did well, given the up-armour was additional armour. The spacing makes it less effective compared to one thick plate so I'm impressed.
@quan-uo5ws
@quan-uo5ws Месяц назад
Would be cool to see a comparison with the 80mm non spaced frontal plate of the Panzer IV H, to see if the APCR would fare better.
@patrykb_
@patrykb_ Месяц назад
it will work out much better because there will be no angles and spacing, which this type of bullets doesn't like very much.
@schullerandreas556
@schullerandreas556 Месяц назад
at every subsequent plate new shear forces apply at impact degrading the projectile. This composite arrangement is actually more effective than the single 80mm plate if the mountings of the upper plates are so well crafted and the bolts dont shear off.
@Basicallybaltic
@Basicallybaltic Месяц назад
Would love to see the M93 HVAP-T round against a Panther and Tiger UFP
@ronstermaglee7355
@ronstermaglee7355 Месяц назад
*Next Video easy idea*: Increase of spalling of different steel plate thickness vs AP or APDS Example: - Spalling of 1 cm Steel Plate at 60°, then the same simulation but with 2 cm Steel Plate and incresing the thickness until the maximum spalling, I think it is very usefull for understand the spalling
@jintsuubest9331
@jintsuubest9331 Месяц назад
It was done. Not angled, but same idea. Spall velocity is inversely related to the thickness of the armor. Spall come angle is proportional to the thickness of the armor.
@williamgandarillas2185
@williamgandarillas2185 Месяц назад
Hi SY simulations this was a very interesting video. I would have thought the APCR would have punched right through, so the results really surprised me. Anyway, I have a simulation proposal: Historical Context: On the 6th of March 1945 an M26 Pershing suffered an 88mm penetration of the lower front plate by a Narshorn tank destroyer and suffered an ammunition detonation. However, the shot miraculously penetrated right between the driver’s legs, and no crew members were killed in the engagement. Proposal: German Pzgr. 39/43 APCBC-HE shell against 76mm of RHA sloped at 36 degrees at a range of 300 yards. (HE filler can be omitted if need be. Also, although most sources state the M26’s LFP was 76mm at 53 degrees, the specific location of the hit was at 36 degrees constructional slope) Additionally, A 6mm upside down “u” shaped witness plate would be positioned between the expected location of the penetration to simulate the driver’s legs. Thanks out to reading this, and have a good day!
@WeWillAlwaysHaveVALIS
@WeWillAlwaysHaveVALIS Месяц назад
My man! Your content just keeps getting better and better! Loved the depth of information you were able to get into such a small amount of time and the "narrator" means i don't have to pause the video to make certain I'm able to absorb everything. I've got a request to add to your presumably now never ending list if you don't mind. I'd love to see what a 105mm recoiless rifle (munition type is totally your shout, though I would say that whatever is the most probable round to be loaded might be best) against the front top plate of a PT-76. My reasoning for why being it would be interesting to see how two products of the differing "rapid deployment" concepts of the US and Sov Union within the context of the 'nam conflict would fair against one another. Wishing you all the best dude and thank you as ever for the hard work you put into these presentations.
@seanmurphy7011
@seanmurphy7011 Месяц назад
I'd like to see the American HVAP you refer to for comparison.
@Grigoriymicro
@Grigoriymicro Месяц назад
HEAT against composite armor?
@panzerkampfwagenviausf.b2236
@panzerkampfwagenviausf.b2236 Месяц назад
no
@myopickid4180
@myopickid4180 Месяц назад
But only the massive HEAT round would do the job
@petermcglone135
@petermcglone135 Месяц назад
But does it really? We have all seen countless videos of Russian tanks unable to stop even the smallest heat rounds. Reality doesnt match the premise that composite armour is practically immune to HEAT. I would be interested in seeing a couple of sims on this.
@Lemard77
@Lemard77 Месяц назад
An interesting experiment could be to make the core slightly larger (longer?) to bring the ratio to 50% for the same total projectile mass and velocity, then compare penetration between the two
@crgkevin6542
@crgkevin6542 Месяц назад
It’d be interesting to see how this compares with some of the full caliber rounds from the Soviet 85mm gun as a point of comparison
@Dovahkiin520
@Dovahkiin520 Месяц назад
Oddly enough, the American M82 over performs in War Thunder. While the M318 is vastly underperforming. Would love to see the comparison between solid shot and HE filler rounds in terms of spalling
@UkrainianPaulie
@UkrainianPaulie Месяц назад
Its a game. It is what the devs decide. It isn't a true simulation.
@user-ex9ty9dc5s
@user-ex9ty9dc5s Месяц назад
could you tell me what software do you use for your videos? (And keep it up, your videos are interesting).
@kimjanek646
@kimjanek646 Месяц назад
Soviet 20mm and 23mm BZ API projectiles have a somewhat similiar design but with a steel core instead of tungsten. Maybe you can make a simulation with those, against ground or air targets :3
@Insatiable-saucy
@Insatiable-saucy Месяц назад
@sy simulations, is there a way i can do that to? like simulate the rounds hitting armor?
@notsureyou
@notsureyou Месяц назад
If the middle 30mm plate had more slope, it may have helped to prevent penetration.
@lpersicaria4733
@lpersicaria4733 Месяц назад
Could we have a simulation of 3bm26? Its intersting rear-mounted armour-piercing core design seems to have significantly improved high-angle performance.
@ChingChang0053
@ChingChang0053 Месяц назад
I was wondering if you can do a simulation of a t 62 or t72 in the turtle tank format to see if penetration is reduced since their is at time a meter to 2-meter gap.
@mrj4990
@mrj4990 Месяц назад
That's still an emotionally significant event
@Boomchacle
@Boomchacle Месяц назад
I like how the aluminum nose cone basically only helps the core get deflected by angled armor
@gheetza14
@gheetza14 Месяц назад
Hello. I have, what I think is an interesting "what-if" suggestion. 2 years ago you posted 2 videos, exploring the shot traps of the different Panther mantlet designs. There is a Panther in Thum, Switzerland, that, at first glance, has an A/D mantlet with the bottom side straighened. I was wondering if you could do a third "M72 vs Panther mantlet" video, imagining the germans transitioning to a mantlet of this design, instead of the actual G mantlet. I call this a "what-if" suggestion, because that mantlet is actually a post war sheet metal replacement, missing holes for the gunners sight or a coaxial machinegun. Number of times I commented this: 2 I will _try_ to link a video of it in the replies to this comment, but you know how youtube is about deleting links.
@gheetza14
@gheetza14 Месяц назад
h I have t absolutely t no p ideea s if : this / is / going v to m work, . right t now i I am k simply t writing o words k to . mask c the o link m in / hopes Z it G doesn't e get C deleted 8 by W youtube's 8 filter, D this k is / the fourth comment I have made, all using different methods, thus far all have been useless.
@abdulalsalay
@abdulalsalay Месяц назад
Day 2 of requesting King Tiger vs Sherman with 2 UFP's.
@TheMr0lolosh
@TheMr0lolosh Месяц назад
It came as a surprise to me that the body of the projectile penetrated 50mm+ of hardered armor. This gave me an idea: what if we simulate a body without a core! How much can an “empty” apcr penetrate?
@kimjanek646
@kimjanek646 Месяц назад
A lot less :3
@Mark49007
@Mark49007 Месяц назад
Please can you make simulation with heat shell vs German schirtzen, for example Panzer IV?
@thekebab1453
@thekebab1453 Месяц назад
Is it possible for you to test armor cracking, either on T-34s or Panthers? I think it would be interesting to see
@dominuslogik484
@dominuslogik484 Месяц назад
I feel like I have seen someone do that.
@thekebab1453
@thekebab1453 Месяц назад
@@dominuslogik484 yeah but it's not exactly what I wanna see
@Ray-Is-Here
@Ray-Is-Here Месяц назад
Where are you testing that shells, and is it posible for me to try that too?
@alexisbierquedebirkadefauv1744
@alexisbierquedebirkadefauv1744 Месяц назад
Could you make a simulation of the Ho-Ro's 150mm HE shell against the frontal armour of an M4A1?
@chrisdeeyt4392
@chrisdeeyt4392 Месяц назад
Can you do a Panzer 3 vs T-34 turret ring?
@dominuslogik484
@dominuslogik484 Месяц назад
nearly stopped it, if the back plate was 50mm it might have not gone through. heck if that shot came at a slight angle it probably wouldn't have made it through, tack on about 15 degrees and maybe.
@dylanmilne6683
@dylanmilne6683 22 дня назад
Tank museum did a video recently about PZ.IV vs Sherman. Could you do this with a sherman shell instead?
@larrythorn4715
@larrythorn4715 Месяц назад
How common was this Panzer IV armor array?
@anthonyfarrell7720
@anthonyfarrell7720 Месяц назад
Also, tungsten carbide cores shatter in spaced armour.
@majestatycznyimbryczek8749
@majestatycznyimbryczek8749 Месяц назад
85mm could delivre quite a punch, especially with that projectile. Thou it did penetrate i see here a hidden advantage of spaced armour, more space, maybe a soft filler betwen plates and I wonder if this could be stopped completely
@gamingboxlin1236
@gamingboxlin1236 Месяц назад
bro simulation app name pls and this app is free? (pls answer)
@user-ro1ov3bk7b
@user-ro1ov3bk7b 6 дней назад
what software is this?
@MrSlientdeath
@MrSlientdeath Месяц назад
British 4 inch he vs a type 9 or type 7 U-boat hull please.
@-Ryan_Gasoline-
@-Ryan_Gasoline- Месяц назад
This shit pissed me off so much, I never used it again, stuck with APHEBC.
@JarateHunter
@JarateHunter Месяц назад
APFSDS vs Leo 2 arrowhead armor?
@kimjanek646
@kimjanek646 Месяц назад
Oh wait that was a 85mm APCR? I thought it's going to be 76mm APCR since the 85mm AP already goes through a Pz IV like a hot knife through butter. I imagine the 76mm wouldn't go through that at 500m.
@mehmetkaral8863
@mehmetkaral8863 Месяц назад
85mm t34 apcr in warthunder pens like +200mm but irl barely pen pazer 4s
@kimjanek646
@kimjanek646 Месяц назад
@@mehmetkaral8863 yeah their APCR calculator gives way too much penetration based on the weight of the shell instead of the tungsten core. The T-44s BR-367P APCR was a major improvement over the early BR-365P but in the game it’s hardly better because Gaijin thinks that steel is apparently just as good as tungsten for armor penetration.
@arczer2519
@arczer2519 Месяц назад
@@kimjanek646 indeed, using calculator for APCR calculator for APDS with basically same core properties produces completely arbitrary results due to it relying so much on shell mass, like for 17pdr APDS at point blank it only gives 178mm... and second nail in the coffin is that Gaijin also uses these small core APCR as model for APCR slope penetration which results in far worse performance at angles of about ~15-25%...
@liammiller1472
@liammiller1472 Месяц назад
how did it penetrate that last plate without touching? this has happened in a fee videos now, what is going on????
@markdombrovan8849
@markdombrovan8849 Месяц назад
can regular round go through?
@thecommunistparty1917
@thecommunistparty1917 Месяц назад
If you mean the APHEs then yes
@quan-uo5ws
@quan-uo5ws Месяц назад
Like knife through butter.
@medidstuff
@medidstuff Месяц назад
What is the simulation name?
@jacqirius
@jacqirius 3 дня назад
Kinda crazy how pathetic the damage was for a cannon of that calibre
@pierluigiadreani2159
@pierluigiadreani2159 Месяц назад
I am so disappointed by the panzer 4 armor....
@yoloman3607
@yoloman3607 Месяц назад
So was Germany...
@alexturnbackthearmy1907
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 Месяц назад
Pz4 is disappointment for everyone, but "just make more of them" bros.
@Maxfr8
@Maxfr8 Месяц назад
Does anyone else make sound effects when they watch these ? I've said too much.
@Moeflyer6213
@Moeflyer6213 Месяц назад
So the APCR in War Thunder does reflects the reality!
@gings4ever
@gings4ever Месяц назад
For some reason, I feel that the T-34-85 crew wouldnt be that bothered to switch to APCR if its not big enough since the base AP should be enough to kill a Pz IV, but man that would be scary to watch the APCR you just blasted a tank with to little effect
@kirotheavenger60
@kirotheavenger60 Месяц назад
It went through, plenty of effect from that
@quan-uo5ws
@quan-uo5ws Месяц назад
If you ignore the drivers face that is full of spalling, then yeah, no effect at all
@kimjanek646
@kimjanek646 Месяц назад
@@quan-uo5ws If there wasn't someones face behind the armor, it would indeed have comperatively low effect.
@Misterskillzz7
@Misterskillzz7 Месяц назад
You usually need crew to operate tanks ​@@kimjanek646
@user-nk7ym5wr8r
@user-nk7ym5wr8r Месяц назад
Whats the Name of the simulator
@jah886
@jah886 21 день назад
in your simulation the core disappears completely. such a reality could not exist. and I don’t know where they got information about the weight of the core itself. please indicate the source
@clockmonkey
@clockmonkey Месяц назад
When you make a shell that bad it costs lives.
@WelcomeToDERPLAND
@WelcomeToDERPLAND Месяц назад
Big L for the Up armored PZIV
@Nik39393
@Nik39393 16 дней назад
вартандер так не думает))))
@testme6253
@testme6253 Месяц назад
I thought the UFP of the pz4 was 80 mm?
@ImBigFloppa
@ImBigFloppa Месяц назад
The Panzer 4 B through D had just 30mm of turret and hull frontal armor. They are the ones with the short 75mm cannon. On the E, a 30mm plate was welded onto the front hull. The F1 and F2 had it's basic frontal hull armor increased to 50mm. The G had an additional 30mm plate on the front, and then only the H and J models had the base 80mm of steel frontal turret armor. The B through F models only had a little more than 1000 units made. while the models with 80mm of frontal hull armor, whether just a basic 80mm plate or 50 + 30mm plate, made up about 7.4k total units combined
@wolfcommando8467
@wolfcommando8467 Месяц назад
No.
@shannon1267
@shannon1267 Месяц назад
Is it possible to simulate a a nuclear blast above a Abrams tank. Maybe have the blast distance 1/2 a mile above it?
@logitech4873
@logitech4873 Месяц назад
Why the terrible AI voice?
@Gweh04
@Gweh04 Месяц назад
Am i first?
@Sagano96
@Sagano96 Месяц назад
yes
@MrPezsgess
@MrPezsgess Месяц назад
Is the ammo was too expensive to make it good or what? Probably the extremly low 13% mass was because of that. Either you make 1 good or 4 somewhat working rounds. At least thats my opinion based on their engineering works.
@alexturnbackthearmy1907
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 Месяц назад
More like they werent exactly sure how to make good APCR and HEAT. And while they had at least some ideas about first...all their knowledge of HEAT came from captured german HEAT rounds.
@aiTheVulture
@aiTheVulture Месяц назад
85mm tank guns was temporary substitute of 76mm, since 76mm AP rounds was bad quality, and 57mm guns(with better AP rounds) was to complicated for mass production as tank/field guns, and was AA backbone. 57mm was to much against pz3/4, so there was only 150 T-34 with it, but low 76mm AP quality, armor upgrade of PZ4 and tiger/panthers become problem really fast(T-34-76 cant penetrate tiger side armor at all). Captured tigers and panthers were tested against every soviet and some lend lease guns/rounds/rockets. USSR saw germans goin to replace(as obsolete) PZ4 with panthers, and 85mm struggle against it frontal armor(same goes for tiger) at any range. While 122mm AP penetrate it from 1500m like a paper. So most resources goes to 122mm guns/rounds development. In 1944 for every 5 T34-85 there was 1 IS-2, and 1700 IS-3 in 1945. For SPG it goes for every 3 85mm, 2 122mm and 1 152mm in 1944.
@MrPezsgess
@MrPezsgess Месяц назад
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 That could be. But this difference is just too much. And it would be more logical that the soviets seen the 20-30% increase in penetration not worth it when it should use 3-4 times as thungsten. HEAT as well. It wasn't made to defeat thick armour more like an all purpose round for any target because of the explosive/armor penning potential. This logic is also there with the guns. They used a 122 mm because it's much cheaper to design a big round for penetration and sheer destruction than a low caliber high velocity gun like the 75 mm PAK 40. They did guns like this the 57 mm and 100 mm and got scrapped because of these reasons. Their goal wasn't to make a super weapon (like germans) only to make it half decent. If they really wanted to they could. See IS-7 . @aiTheVulture sorry I meant it to the other guy.
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