I was a baseball nerd growing up and read all sorts of rule books and almanacs so I've known the 4th out rule since I was a kid. I saw it happen live when I was 10 in my dad's softball league where the run counted. So when I was playing softball years ago our short fielder came up with an out of nowhere diving catch while bases loaded no out and we pulled off a triple play, I immediately scooped up the ball off the mound and yelled to the ump I was touching 3rd so he wouldn't stop the play as we were walking off and I stepped on the bag and the ump called an out for the quadruple play.
The "fourth out" play is discussed in every pre-season umpiring clinic I have ever attended. Pre-season clinics for coaches also commonly make the point. That people get confused about it may be understandable, but not excusable.
Baseball needs to apply the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). Sometimes it seems like they go out of their way to make things way-more complicated than they need to be.
@@mylesmarkson1686 the appeal rule is simple. An appeal can be made to an umpire that a runner missed a base or illegally left a base. All appeals must be obvious by verbally appealing and, or, a physical display which communicates that an appeal is being made and which runner is being appealed.
@@rayray4192 But the only way an appeal can work is if the umpire saw it in the first place. So just call it when it happens. No appeals necessary. See how much better it can be when we apply the KISS principle?
@@mylesmarkson1686 it’s you to the defense to be vigilant and observe touches and tags. Umpires are not babysitters. High school rules makers forced umpires to call runners out for missing a base or leaving early for about 4 tests before the bastardized rule was changed. I never called anyone out unless the defense appealed.
@@mylesmarkson1686But the runner has a chance to go back and touch a base he missed or left too soon. So there is not a time where the umpire can call the out when it happens because it doesn’t happen until the play is over and the runner can no longer return to the base.
@@georgenewman4464 No, this youtuber, and mlb, did it right. The problem is the player did not just tag the bag (and make his appeal obvious). He appealed the runner standing on third, before then vaguely stepping in third. You have to make your appeal obvious.
Making sure I have this straight. 1) If fielder steps on 3rd before tag --> inning over, no run scored 2) If fielder tags runner first --> run counts unless the fielding team formally appeals the runner leaving early before walking off the field. Someone other than Angel Hernandez please confirm.
No, that's not right. Appeals have to be unmistakable. Just stepping on a base isn't necessarily an appeal. On this play the fielder appealed that the runner standing on third left second base early by tagging him. Just touching third base during that process isn't an appeal. If the fielder would have said that he was appealing that the other runner left third early and tagged the base that would be an appeal. It's confusing as most appeals are unmistakable. For example an infielder catches a line drive with a runner off base. The fielder then throws to that base to appeal that the runner left early before he can retouch the base. That is unmistakable. Simply touching a base doesn't count as an appeal. It must be unmistakable.
@@ryanmiddleton109 I very much understand the Official Baseball Rules. Formal appeal is not a real baseball term. Possibly you are referring to an appeal that is not part of continuous action. For example, all play has stopped after a batted ball and then the defense wants to appeal. But even for appeals that are not part of continuous action, the rules are the same. The fielder must tag the runner or the base that was not touched/retouched and the appeal must be unmistakable. Do you have a specific question regarding appeals?
I learned about that rule from a scene in the baseball novel "The Greatest Slump Of All Time." Runners on first and third, one out, a slow guy on third, a routine fly ball to just short of the warning track in left field. Guy on third tags up, but leaves before the ball is caught, trying to make up for being slow by leaving early. The defense sees it. The pitcher is about to throw to third for the appeal when the guy on first -- a very fast runner -- breaks for second... and falls down. The pitched races over and tags him for the third out... but since the appeal was never completed, the run COUNTS. The defensive team doesn't realize it until after they've headed off the field and crossed the foul lines.
I think that's the real catch that was overlooked in the video, teams probably feel that's three outs and the run won't count and don't realize what they need to do until it's too late to do it.
In that situation, the opportunity to appeal that R3 left early was lost the instant the pitcher raced over towards R1 to make a play on him, not when the defense left the field. Once the pitcher has the ball on the mound and the next batter has taken his place in the batter's box, any appeal on a runner from the previous action must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. Even if it was originally first-and-third with none out, the defense would not be able to appeal on R3 leaving too early once they made a play on R1, even though the play on R1 would've been only the second out.
The worst rule in baseball is the ghost Runner rule and extra innings. This isn’t Little League. The most complicated rule is the infield fly rule. I would argue significantly more complicated than this.
As an umpire, I used to hear all sorts of wrong arguments about infield flies. A great many players didn't think it ought to apply if the infielder had to backpedal into the outfield to make an easy catch. This always baffled me, because the situation for the infield fly rule to be invoked is quite common.
MLB rule 5.09 (C): Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or Clubhouse.
One necessary implication of that rule that has clearly flown over the head of several commenters (and likely the RU-vidr) here: the facetiously named "fourth out" is not *actually* a *fourth* out. Each inning still has only three outs. One of them is simply displaced (at the fielding team's prerogative) by the out resulting from the appeal.
When I was a teen in the mid-1970s, my dad came home from work one day and asked me if I'd ever heard of the "fourth out appeal play." I said no, so he went on to explain it. I imagine one of the other guys at work at told him about it. It makes sense to me and I don't find anything bad about it. It's just another reason why I love baseball!
I like it too. It is like telling the defense that they have to do some of the policing of the other team. Pay attention to what the offense is doing. Another teams screw up can also give the defense an advantage and allow them to choose the best out for themselves.
@@baseballreplayjournal The really remarkable thing is that when it occurred the first time, I commented to my partner that we might never see that situation occur again. He had it happen again the very next night in another league.
Negative. The ball was thrown to 3rd and the third baseman did tag third base, but he then tagged the runner from second instead of APPEALING TO THE UMPIRE to make the runner from third the final out. He still could have appealed to the umpire to create the "fourth out" and disallow the run, but that didn't happen.
@@PsychoThirteen not sure if you’re trolling or what but he pretty clearly made the third out by tagging the runner on 3rd (who is the guy that started at 2nd), not tagging 3rd base itself. Those are different things
@@PsychoThirteen he tagged the runner before the base. In this case order of operations matters because the runner was the 3rd out. He also never appealed so then touching the base was meaningless. You don’t know what you’re talking about
@@shoeless1137The YT author says, "He broke the rules." He, the runner, didn't break any rules. He did something and was liable to be put out for it. Happens all the time. This is the misconception by the OP. Let's say there's a man on 1st, 0/1 out. Batter flies to deep center. Runner leaves early. Ball is caught, and... 1) CF - C. Now the runner is a put out. 2) 1B. Step on bag, look at ump. No run. That's the rule. That's what you & I are saying, correctly, I believe.
Here's why I disagree that it is the worst rule in baseball. The fourth out allows for a fielding team to still put out a player who has scored by appealing, even though they already have three outs. Just through happenstance they got a different runner out before recognizing that the player they wanted out was the one who crossed the plate. As long as they haven't left the field, why not get the player out who scored? So the batting team is done batting after three outs, but if the fielding team needs to make an extra out to negate a run, they can, as long as they're still on the field of play! Maybe this should be called the best rule in baseball.
Did you know that back when Babe Ruth played, this is actually 100 percent true, when you hit a "Ground Rule Double" they counted them as HOME RUNS!!!!!?????
I don't know about this being the "worst" rule, but it's a relatively easy one to coach. Always prioritize the lead runner. If there's a runner on third, get him if possible. If you must get another runner for the third out, then always throw to third and appeal. Then you will never fall victim to this situation. For the record, I think the worst rule in baseball is giving all runners three bases when the catcher touches a dropped pitch with his mask.
The simple solution is to always double off the runner that crossed the plate by throwing to Third Base, not Second or First. If he did not tag up, he's out and the inning ends without his run counting. He's even less likely to be able to retag home and get back, because he is heading for the dugout too.
At the end of the day it's the result of two other rules. I actually like that you can appeal the runner leaving before the catch, and in this narrow case it's more about the rule that for non-force plays you have to get the out before anyone crosses the plate or the run counts, and the easy solution, is to not make it the forth out. Go tag third base for the third out, or appeal for the fourth out. And the balk rule is way, way worse.
This isn't the worst rule. It's a normal part of baseball and softball. It's called an appeal play for a reason. It has to be appealed. If instead the defense had made it clear that they were appealing the runner leaving third instead of the runner leaving second, the third out would have resulted in the run not scoring.
No, you know the worst thing in baseball? You know those tall yellow poles where the baseline extensions hit the wall? The foul poles, you say? THEY ARE IN FAIR, why you call them foul poles???
To me, the worst rule is the one saying a home run is an AUTOMATIC run for every runner and the batter, yet everyone is still required to MANUALLY round the bases and MANUALLY score a run. It's a straight up contradiction!!!!
That's because people are mistaken if they say it is automatic. The batter has to run and touch every base. It appears automatic because there is no way to put him out unless he fails to properly run the bases, in which case an appeal can be made.
@donsheffler8742 They are not mistaken if they it is automatic. The rulebook explicitly uses that word. The rulebook also later contradicts itself. That's the point of my comment
There is a caveat.. yes the run counts.. and the field should have when he stepped on the base also made a verbal appeal that the other runner left early... thus becoming what we call the advantageous 4th out...He touched it.. he just has to tell the ump that he is ALSO appealing that leave early... that's where he goofed.
If the play is still going on you do not have to "appeal" to the umpire. His job to KNOW the runner left early. The out is automatic and since the runner that "scored" is out run can not count.
@@davidroman1654 EXCEPT... since they already had 3 outs... to get the 4th out you have to not just tag the base or runner.. you do have to do the verbal appeal as well. If it were the second or third out, we would know (in most cases) that you are appealing it.. but in this case, the runner form 2nd muddied the waters... and getting himself out.. out now have to make the verbal appeal.. the 4th out is not automatic like the 3rd or 2nd would be on this play.
@@davidroman1654 I totally agree Dave. The play is definitely still going on, and he clearly touched the base. It doesn't matter if its the 10th out, it still counts. No appeal necessary.
@@davidroman1654 I agree that since the ball is still live, you don't have to appeal necessarily, but you do need to make it clear to the ump which player you are making the play on. The fielder reached out to touch the runner, and stepped on the bag almost at the same time. The player's actions were extremely vague as to whether he even knew he was stepping on the bag or why. In this case the ump called the runner being tagged, out. The player turned around without even asking about the runner who should have tagged, giving the impression that he did not consciously make a play on that runner. If he had tagged the bag first, avoiding tagging the runner while he did it, it would be obvious he was putting out the runner from third who didn't tag up.
@@davidroman1654 Touching the base and telling the ump you believe the runner from third left early, *IS* an appeal. No, you don't have to go the mound and put the ball back in play because it is still in play. In fact, tagging the runner from second as he did, is also an appeal. It was ruled on by the ump because it was a proper appeal, meaning when you touch a runner with the ball it's obvious you are appealing him. Stepping on third without saying anything about the previous runner, is not obvious and is not an appeal. The out is *never* automatic. It's up to the defense to appeal what they believe are running infractions.
If they tagged third the runner is out and the score would not count. They tagged the runner on third that’s why the runner that crossed home is still in play.
If the 3rd baseman had tagged the base before applying the tag to the runner, the guy who scored would've become the 3rd out instead, erasing any need for appeal
To elaborate, runners can "give themselves up" by, for example, turning away from their intended base and running to the dugout. Innings can be given up as in this example. The defensive team chose the early third out over the correct appeal to the bag, they gave up the inning instead of erasing the run.
You don't need four outs. Just don't throw to first. If you throw it to third immediately and step on the bag, the runner will be out no matter what cuz he never tagged up.
Just tag the plate. The umps all knew what was up, and not a single player on the field or dugout knew? Worst rule? No. It's an out if you walk over and take it, so just take it. They are professionals. That is their JOB. Wandering around looking confused is for us spectators, not the employees on the stage.
I don't know why the forth out isn't given automatically in this case because the second out happens on the line drive he tags the runner at 3rd (out #3) then steps on 3rd (out 4). That's the stupid part to me they got all the outs it shouldn't matter what order.
There is nothing wrong with this rule. Because any runner can tage up at third then score if he beats the throw to any base. And it is the fielders job to know if the runner left early. It is not the umpire's job to do a visual note. So this was just bad fundamental baseball on the defensive side. So when the runner scores before the third out it most definitely should count unless it is appealed. Just like any other sacrifice fly. Players often leave early and get caught by the appeal. To remove this situation you must end all appeals. I feel there is absolutely no reason to change this rule. Every rule change over the last 50 years have made the game a worse product. The absolute worst rule change has been the DH. That takes so much of the strategy and skill of a manager out of the game. Also the pitching timer is not good for the game either.
while that can lead to 4 strikeouts in an inning.. is it really a 4th out situation? Seems more similar to a runner reaching via error. Passed ball/wild pitch being the fielding ruling that accounts for the lack of an out being recorded.
@nathanweiss5174 I'd like to see a video as to why certain baseball rules originated. For instance, a runner cannot stand on second base and steal first base. This rule originated in the Babe Ruth era. Runners would steal first when the Babe was at bat so pitchers couldn't intentionally walk Ruth!
Yep, it's as lame as the fact that you can round the bases without touching any of them (including home) and still score a run as long as the defense doesn't appeal. It is beyond ridiculous.
So what happens when a dugout has a baseball lawyer manager who yells at everyone to stay on the field and throw for the appeal but the players aren't in the proper defensive positions?
What about this. Let's say it's a perfectly fine rule, and the defensive team should have better knowledge & execution on the field. If the fielder throws the ball to 3rd base, and no attempt is made to tag the other runner, a call should be made On The Field During The Live Ball that the scoring runner has been tagged for the Third Out. Does that make sense? Let's say that makes sense. Now, this 4th Out Rule is giving the defense a SECOND OPPORTUNITY to do it right, if they were too dumb to do it right the first time.
Not if you know the rules and know that this isn’t a force play. This is an appeal play and the team didn’t correctly appeal. They wouldn’t have needed to put the ball in play as the ball was still live. They literally could have stepped on third base and said “he left early” then no run scores. It’s really not that hard.
Explain it to me like i'm five years old on why the defensive team would need to appeal when the ball was caught and the base runner isn't supposed to be able to advance unless he tagged up if the ball is caught..
The defensive player did step on 3rd therefore the runner from 3rd is forced out and no runnscores. This happened as he was tagging the runner from second whom I believe is not out at this because he is on a base. If they threw back to second base that runner would then be out. I am, however, not sure about the runner from being safe just being on the base since he didn't tag up.
I believe the argument is that they tagged the runner who was at second first, making him the third out. The runner that was at third base then scores - unless they formally appeal after bringing the ball back to the mound. However - if they touched the bag first, then the runner that was at third would be the third out. The runner that was at second would be out because he failed to return to second base to tag up. The fact that he is standing on third base doesn't matter.
There isn't actually a force out. There can't be a force out if the batted ball was caught before it hit the ground. Nobody going to first, nobody forced to go anywhere. The third baseman should have stepped on the base and made sure the umpire understood his intentions. He should have never tagged the guy coming from second. Yes, the guy from second is out because he didn't tag up.
The best way I can see to make sure the run doesn’t count is to leave the runner on third, have the pitcher put the ball in play again and then throw to third. The baseman then touches the base not the runner on third, to make the scoring runner the last out.
Wouldn't have to put it back in play because it is still live. Just touch third base and let the ump know you are putting out the runner who didn't tag up.
I was waiting for (what seems years) for jonboy or Matt antoneli to do a breakdown of this play. But you did 100 better video that they could have combine.
In football(the real one, not hand egg) it's not uncommon for a ref to let the play keep running if the team that was fouled already has an advantage that would else be lower if the foul was called immediately. And in Tennis you can appeal wrong calls. In academic fencing the ref only answers direct questions of the second or testant on each side. So no, Baseball isn't the only sport in which this happens.
In hockey, similar to kick the ball around and not score much, they have delayed penalties. These happen when the non-offending team has the puck, as to not disadvantage the team with the puck. The penalty is called when the offending team gets possession of the puck. Minor penalties are waved off if the non offending team scores during the delayed penalty. In basketball there is LeBron James. No, baseball is not the only sport in which this happens.
This is not stupid. It is really simple. Instead of tagging the runner on third that left early, follow the damn rules. Set up on the mound and appeal to third base, not the runner, the base. The ump was clearly waiting on this to happen and would have called the runner that crossed the plate out and negated the run. However, when the defense continued the play and tagged the runner, the negates the appeal and the run counted. These pros should have known that and if nothing else the manager should have intervened verbally to say "don't tag him!" Not a stupid rule, stupid execution of the game.
No need to get on the mound. The ball is live and in play. Simply throw the ball to third base and verbally appeal that you are appealing R-3 leaving early.
I'm so glad that RU-vid stuck this video in my feed. It definitely is the worst rule. There's no need to get a fourth out ever. No run should ever count that wasn't done legally. If you don't tag up, you don't score. And once you go to the dugout, you're out of the baseline and couldn't go back and tag up even if you wanted to. You're out. No appeal necessary. Fix this rule now Baseball!
@@mylesmarkson1686 The rule is if you don't tag-up the defense can put you out at the base you left early from. The defense owns the ball; it is up to the defense to 'enforce' the rule, if you will. It's up to the runner to not expose himself to a base-running liability. But, if he can get away with it that's on the defense. It's self-regulating. It is definitely not for the umps to call against the runner, unless the defense makes a play. Umps' job: 1. Ball or strike? 2. Fair or foul? 3. Safe or out? That's it.
I noticed you have included some long ago Astros Phillies footage that you didn't comment on. But this jogged my memory. I remember reading an account of the 1980 NLCS (when Houston was still in the NL) in which it was said there was a play that led, or could have led, to 4 outs in an inning. Is the footage in this video that play and another example of this rule?
Actually, no. The footage is from game 4 of the NLCS, when the Phillies successfully appealed at third base, taking an Astros run off the board and ending the inning.
Now with instant replay, can't they review this!? Of all the rules changes in the last couple of years, you'd think they would've taken a look at this one. Instead Mandred is trying to micro-manage baseball with dumb rules like no shifts but this rule still exists.
What's there to review? The runner crossing the plate before the third out was made? if there never was a play on the scoring runner, there's nothing to review.
Actually, it isn't a force out. A force out is when a player is forced to leave the base they are on because another player behind them needs to occupy that base. Yes, failing to tag up is like a force out in that you only have to touch the base to get the runner out. A player failing to tag up wasn't forced to go anywhere. They chose to run, and if they don't make it back before the ball then they are out. It is a timing play.
@@EvanEscherThat is true, if the defense notices it. I think the distinction is partially made because you can't score on a force out, but you can score on a timing play.
@@DavidWalton-g8w And to add to that, touching a base before a runner gets back to tag up is technically an appeal, even though it is a live appeal as a play is progressing.
I disagree. I think part of the game is knowing the rules of the game. These plays highlight this rule. Coaches should know be coaching their players for exactly this situation. In my personal opinion quirks in the rules are fun and they don’t ultimately benefit one team or the other. I don’t mind one team gaining an advantage because of a very rare situation where they knew the rules/didn’t know the rules. It encompasses the mental aspect of the game as well.
So do quirky rules not benefit a team or are they very rare and do benefit a team? You state both and they are mutually exclusive. Rule quirks like this, in anything from card games to sports, should only exist if they can't be simplified without breaking other rules. That's not the case here.
This is a dumb and ridiculous video. The only situation in which the “fourth out” appeal is necessary is when the fielders have made the extremely foolish mistake of getting the third out from a runner OTHER than the one who scored. (Getting the third out from a *force play* is also a good and secure way to prevent the run-but that is of course impossible when the batter has flied out). The moaning and wailing from the RU-vidr is especially ludicrous given that he completely fails to notice that *the fielding teams have badly screwed up to put themselves in this situation.* If they had made the third out by tagging third base rather than a runner (SO DUUUUMB) or a different base, the run would be invalidated and there would be no “fourth out rule” to throw a tantrum about. Finally, the RU-vidr’s bleat that it’s somehow awful and unjust for a runner who “broke the rules” to score is mind-blowingly absurd. Of COURSE such a runner can score *if the fielding team never bothers to put him out!* Maybe they should try to, you know, DO something about him? Before wailing that the basic rules of the sport are “wrong” and “complicated” and “confusing”? Leaving a base before a fly ball is caught does not make a runner naughty or undeserving of scoring a run. It merely *places him at risk of being put out by the defense.* If they don’t bother to make a play on him, he can basically run wherever and whenever he wants-miles outside of the base paths, skip bases, whatever. If the defense does NOTHING in response, he’s fine, and he can perfectly legally score. It just seems like someone didn’t learn the rules when he was in little league. If a run scores on a play in which the third out was made *and that out wasn’t a force out,* there is a very real possibility that the run counts. That situation requires the fielding team to think and act carefully. Complaining about the fundamental rules of baseball instead is a deeply stupid alternative.
He mentioned that a rule was broken. There was no rule broken. In fact, everything proceeded according to the rules. The rule says that the runner must touch his original base after a fly ball is caught for an out before advancing to the next base. However, if the runner fails to do so, he may be put out by a fielder tagging the base while in possession of the ball before the runner returns. It is not a violation of these rules to neglect to "tag up" because that situation is covered in the rules.
This isn’t a rule. It’s a consequence of other rules. If you don’t like it, you either have to change those rules (and deal with the cascading consequences of those changes) or carve out some clunky exception for this exact situation, which would be far dumber
So it is a terrible rule that baseball players have to touchall the bases in baseball? 😂 Also, if a basketball player shoots and misses, the basket doesn't count. Terrible rule. 😂😂
I agree. Whether you are forced to go to the next base or the previous base, it's still a force (as proven by the fact that you only have to tag that base to get the runner out). If you leave a base early, you have no choice but to go back. It definitely belongs in that same line of reasoning.
@@mylesmarkson1686 There's no such thing as "being forced to go to a previous base", and "tagging a base to get the runner out" is not what makes it a force play. A runner can only be forced to vacate his base for the next base as a result of a batter becoming a runner. A runner being called out for failing to tag up on a caught fly ball is not a force play, simply because the batter never actually became a runner in that instance
@@freezer8530 Then apparently you've never watched baseball. If I leave a base before a ball is caught, then yes, I am FORCED to go back to that base. Just because you can't handle that terminology, that doesn't make it not true. And yes, anytime a base is touched for an out, it's the result of a runner being FORCED to go that base, thereby nullifying the need to tag the runner. It's really basic stuff. You should learn about baseball sometime.
@@mylesmarkson1686 Your ignorance of the Baseball Rule Book is showing. The following is taken from the Definition of Terms section of the MLB Rule Book: A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. (Force Play) Comment: . . . Example: NOT A FORCE OUT. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. The third out (which was made by the fielder by stepping on first base with the ball in his possession) was an appeal on the runner from first base that did not tag up; it was not a force play (by the Baseball Rule Book definition). If that was a force play, then the run scoring from third base would not have counted at all, regardless of the timing aspect.
I've seen a lot of comments to this effect - but I'm going to have to call you out on this one. There is no way that the coach taught you this obscure rule in t-ball. Troll elsewhere.
@baseballreplayjournal think what you like but I literally consumed every bit of baseball information possible and I specifically asked him about this rule after coming across an explanation of it a little to complicated for me at the time.
@@mylesmarkson1686 it’s only an appeal play, that’s the only way an out is recorded in that circumstance…..not sure why but it’s been that way as long as I can remember. Same as missing a bag….. But if he had just tagged third…..
Just so everyone knows, this wasnt a rule issue, but a blown call by the ump. The appeal can be nonverbal if its obvious, which, theres literally *no* reason for the third baseman to touch the base otherwise (theres no force out). The Ump was just being cute.
Watched Little league teams make this play correctly and record a "fourth" out so the run does not score. Just because you didn't know/understand how this would work does not mean that ALL or even MOST baseball fans actually do understand this concept.
That's exactly how I felt when I found out about this. I've been watching this sport like a fanatic for my whole life, but never knew this. I can't be the only one!
@@ManekiNeko1972 Not me. I loved baseball so much, that a double header with both games going into extra innings was awesome! But the main point is that it's not real baseball.
I didn't even know about this rule until I read it here. I thought that was just done in youth games to get them over with. Now the majors are doing it too?
I think the worst rule is having to touch home plate after a HR. Anyway... about the rule you're talking about: The problem is that you're forgetting something. A runner does NOT HAVE to tag up on a fly ball, in order to advance to the next base. Now I know what you're thinking: "YES THEY DO!!!".... but No.. they don't. When the ball is hit in the air, a runner on base can immediately run to the next base if they want to. When the defense catches the ball ..... if the defense does not appeal, then the runner successfully advances. The reason people think runners HAVE to tag up, is because they pretty much do "have" to lol. If a runner immediately takes off, on a fly ball, of course the defense is going to appeal. When the defense appeals, and the runner is called out.... what does everyone say to the runner??? "Hey man, you have to tag up on a fly ball".... thus why everything thinks a runner HAS to tag up. So when the runner took off from 3rd base to homeplate, he was allowed to do that. Since he crossed homeplate before the 3rd out, the run counts. I don't see a problem with that or the rule. Also, not that you really go over this in the video, and you didn't contradict what I'm about to copy and paste, but I thought I'd paste it anyway, for anyone else asking "Yeah, but it's that a force out at 3rd?" "It is not a force out when a runner is put out while trying to tag up after a caught fly ball. Because this out is similar to a true force out in that the runner can be put out by a fielder possessing the ball at the base that the runner needs to reach, there is a widespread misconception that this out is a force out. But it is not, which means the run would count if it scored before the third out is made on a runner trying to tag up." Hope this clarifies the rule for you 🙂. I can understand why someone might think it's a dumb rule, on the surface... but when you actually delve deep into it, the rule makes sense.
Nonsense. Less of the three true outcomes is better for the game overall, as is a slightly higher BABIP than what MLB had in the few years before 2023.
@@stevenundisclosed6091 I totally agree. Batters need to learn how to position their feet to "hit it where they ain't". If they're professionals,, they should be able to figure it out.
The movie I want to see made is the 1908 Fred Merkle game. Complete with Giants first base coach Joe McGinnity stealing the baseball from outfielder Solly Hofman's errant throw and throwing it into the stands, the Cubs fighting with the fans to get the ball back and allegedly throwing the same ball back to second for second baseman Johnny Evers to step on the base force out Merkle, with umpire Hank O'Day standing there the whole time and calling Merkle out.
Balk Rules 1) You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that. 1a. A balk is when you 1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that. 1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic... 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of 2) Do not do a balk please.
The fourth-out situation always involves an appeal play, and there's a legitimate reason why an appeal play is needed. The basic concept is that an out is accomplished by the defense. If the defense doesn't do anything, you cannot have an out. This creates some interesting situations like the fourth-out. IMHO, the worst rule is the ability to review a play and overturn it. Look, umpires are humans and may make an occasional mistake, but so what. Players are not required to be perfect, why should the umpires? And what about those games and situations where there is no TV/view to review? Just go with teh call on the field, as was done for decades, and move on with the game, rather than interrupting its flow.
baseball is a fun backyard game, but that's about it. to make baseball a good competitive game there would need to be dozens of rule changes. it's just not a well designed game any more than marbles is.
It only the worst rule when you don’t know the rules. When you are getting paid close to a million dollars to play a game, it shouldn’t be too hard to study the rules. Most other workers have to know the rules for their job or get fired.
This could be eliminated by allowing the umpires to call a runner out for leaving early without an appeal. It doesn’t make sense that the umpires can observe a rule violation but not be able to call it. What is this, golf where the players call violations on themselves and each other?
Or cricket. The problem is that leaving the base early is not a rule violation. It's not forbidden. It just sets up a situation wherein an out can be had. The question is, *when* do you want that out to count if an umpire can call it? If there's no appeal and it's just a live ball play, the runner is out if s/he doesn't get back to the base before it's tagged (or before being tagged personally).
I could not agree more. If the umpire notices something wrong (and after giving the runner ample time to correct it), they need to just go ahead and make the call. Or at least wait until the runner goes into the dugout, and then the umpire can call them out for leaving the baseline without running the bases correctly. No appeals necessary.
I didn't think of this, but you nailed it. Since the runner who scored never tagged up, stepping on the bag before he retreated back is all he needed to do to get him out. No run should have scored.
I think you said that the fourth out WILL be allowed (so that the runner who crossed the plate would be out and no run scored) if before leaving the field the defending team did an appeal play at third base against the runner who left third base, even if the defense tagged another runner out at third base for the third out. But I saw the third basement step on third base after tagging the other runner out. Why doesn’t stepping on third base provide a valid fourth out against the runner who left third base just as well as doing the appeal later does give a valid fourth out? In both cases the (fourth) out was made after the runner crossed the plate, so why does the appeal apply retroactively but stepping on third base earlier does not?
The run would not count if the 3rd out was by forceout but nobody who was on base was forced out, they were out on appeal. The runner at first on a live ball appeal. If the defense recognizes that the runner from 3rd also did not tag, then they need to make a dead ball appeal before leaving the field to erase the run.
This isn't a bad rule. You don't have to appeal if you just throw to the base the runner left early from. Same as getting a double play on a runner going back to the bag on an out in the air.
Yes, if you stand on the base and look at the ump they should know that you are appealing, or tell them you are appealing. Just don't touch the runner first, and don't do them both back to back. Even if you touch the base before you touch the runner, because that isn't an unmistakable indication that you are appealing.
I thought that if a runner left early and could not get back to the base in time that counted as a force out, which would eliminate the run in these cases. I'm not sure where I heard that. I guess it's not true. But it would make these plays better.
A force out is being forced to the next base by the runner behind them. Not tagging up is similar, because you can just touch the base the player left early from, but it is not a force out.
What makes the Nationals / Pirates play even more insane is that Nats third baseman Ehire Adrianza clearly STEPS ON THIRD with the ball in his glove. Had Adrianza NOT tagged Hoy Jun Park (the Pirates runner who had left second and ran to third on the line drive), then the runner who was on third at the start of the play, Jack Suwinski, would have been doubled-off to end the inning. Is THAT what the umpires think? But in this case, because Adrianza tagged Park less than a second BEFORE stepping on third, are they saying the rules consider the inning over at the very instant that Park is TAGGED out and only an appeal play to third can void the run? EDIT: In a post-game interview, Nats manager Davey Martinez (a RU-vid video entitled "Davey Martinez on controversial call in the fifth inning") says that third base umpire Jeremie Rehak told him that he didn't see Adrianza step on third. Martinez added that the umpire's ignorance did not qualify for a video replay review. Anyone want to bet that if the Yankees were about to lose Game 7 of the World Series in the bottom of the 9th in this fashion that the Commish and replay officials would step in and reverse the run? This isn't the first time that a third base umpire wasn't paying attention. Check out the RU-vid "2009 ALCS Game 4: Yankees @ Angels" and go to the 11:40 mark. Two Yankees not standing on a base were clearly TAGGED out. But, hey, it's the Yankees. So only one out counts. And that wasn't the only bad call in the game. One of worst umpired playoff games I've seen.
The third basemen did step on the base, but because of the way in which he step on the base looked like an accident, and the third basement did not make it clear that he appealed the run, that is why the appeal didn't count. This can be confirmed because when the umpire calls the runner out at third, the third basement see's this call and doesn't argue that he wants the fourth out. If there was intent to appeal the runner, then the third basemen would have asked the umpire to appeal the runner, and then that would be a valid appeal and the run would not score. In conclusion, because the appeal at third was not unmistakable, it is not a valid appeal, and therefore the runner is not out.
@@TheMiniWeapon Umpire Jeremie Rehak had his head in the clouds and confused Adrianza by telling him, "He's out. The runner's out for the third out." But Rehak apparently didn't tell Adrianza which "runner" he was referring to. The umpire also told Nats manager Davey Martinez later that he didn't see Adrianza step on third and since the Nats had left the field it was too late for them to appeal the play and a video replay wasn't allowed for this type of situation. The umpire crew was clearly doing a CYA when they spoke to the Washington Post about it, putting the blame on Adrianza for allegedly not making it more clear to Rehak that he was stepping on third (maybe he could have jumped up and down on the bag and pounding it with his glove?). Dan is right about the rule. It's idiotic as written and it took about 20 minutes for that uimpire crew to figure it out for themselves and inform both managers what they were going to rule.
Thank you very much for that and you noticed also how so many of the calls go to the Yankees way. Noticed that when the Yankees are in the field, the plate becomes 20 inches wide, but then, when the Yankees are Hitting, the plate magically turns to only 16 inches wide.
Watched that Yankees vid, lucky it was the top one that came up. You'd think with six umpires out there the guy could have asked for help and one of them would have seen it. It wasn't even a close call kind of play. The guy was well off the base, the ump was just a little screened (to give him the benefit of the doubt).
Am I seriously the only one in your theoretical 100 baseball fans who knew the rule here?? The run counts. Of course it does! Game awareness, baseball IQ, i.e. the 6th tool, dictates an appeal at 3rd to get the third out there AND prevent the run. It's actually NOT a big deal like you're making it, IF you know the rules. Please stop trying to make this game like all the others. That is a complete fallacy from the beginning, and nullifies all of your arguments from that point on.
I have seen players overrun second base to avoid a force out because they know if they can beat the throw the player running home will be safe if they make it there before the player overrunning second is tagged. That is a high baseball IQ play. I do have a question though. The third baseman should have obviously tagged third and appealed to the ump, instead of tagging the runner from second. However, couldn't he still step on third and appeal to the umpire right after he tagged the runner? The ball isn't dead.
@@DavidWalton-g8w Yeah, excellent question. The nature of the "appeal" is at question here. A simple tag of 3rd base is apparently not good enough. I think the video addresses this, if I understood correctly, with the defense re-assuming its position, even with 3 outs recorded, and conducting a formal appeal with the throw to 3rd. Granted this is very quirky, but it makes sense in the end. According to rule 5.09(c) the defense actually gets to pick which "3rd out" works to their benefit, including removing the scored run from the tally. That all goes away though when the defense walks off the field though for the half-inning.
From the comments on the Appeals rule: 'Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or Clubhouse.'
@@baseballreplayjournal Yeah, bro, I did. Learn the rules, bro. From the comment to Rule 5.09(c): "An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal." Because the fielder was occupied with tagging R2, it wasn't obvious that he was appealing R3. He would need to verbalize to the umpire he was appealing the other runner or make a show of stomping on the bag to make it clear. Still not that hard, bro.
Maybe a less frustrating way to look at it is to instead think of the appeal as more negating the score do to an illegal advancement, instead of a fourth out.
An appeal has to be deliberate. Just stepping on the bag because it was under your foot when you put your foot down doesn't count. Tagging the runner from second is deliberate since there is no other reason to tag him. The reason it's this way is that it allows base runners to partially advance on fly balls. For example, a runner at first may run halfway to second on a fly ball to deep left field. If it drops, he will easily make it to 3rd or even score. If it's caught he goes back to first to beat the throw back. That throw is deliberate because there is no other reason to throw the ball back to first. Now suppose the ball is dropped, but the runner misses second. The left fielder runs in to apologize to the pitcher, and steps on second base when he runs by it. Is that an appeal? No, because it's not deliberate. And my experience in this case with youth baseball is the umpires may be the only ones that didn't see him step on second. Event the runner may not really be aware of it. Even saying the runner at 3rd cheated is not fair. Perhaps he thought the ball hit the ground, and at that point he has built up momentum heading home. In this case, he cannot really go back without risking being tagged, so he continues on to score.
I'm lost. I get the 4th out rule, but what I don't get is the fact the 2 runners never tagged up, but the ball was caught before it hit the ground. Shouldn't both players have to tag up before a score can be counted in the first place? So how are they allowing players to score a point without said tag up? They shouldn't have to do this "Appeal" BS. If the player fails to tag up after a ball was caught mid-air and a force out at another base, that would normally end defense, is made then the player who never tagged up shouldn't score? Isn't that how it should be? Or am I missing something? It's dumb that they would have to get a 4th out on a guy that never tagged up after a mid-air catch was made, but 3 outs were made. Someone please explain.
Whenever a runner fails to tag up on a fly ball that is caught, it is up to the defense to appeal the infraction within a certain time frame; otherwise, it can be assumed that no infraction was committed at all.
@@freezer8530 So basically its a dumb rule. Player breaks the rules by not tagging up, like he's supposed to, after a caught fly ball and scores which forces the defending team to have to get a 4th out in a 3 out system? Like how does that make sense? Its simple. If you don't tag up after a caught fly ball and you cross another base then you are out. Having to "appeal" whatever that even means is the dumbest thing. Follow the rules. Said 4 out rule isn't in the official rule book, apparently, but tagging up after a fly ball is. So why are they allowing it? Also if a 3rd out is made any any point during the 3rd base runner not tagging up and crossing the base then it ends the inning without a score. If he tagged up and then scored before the 3rd out happens then that counts.
@@TheAlordian The following is the actual rule from the MLB Rule Book: Rule 5.09(b)(5): Any runner is out when ... He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play. Therefore, when it comes to running the bases, it is up to the defensive team to keep the opposing team in line. The umpire can make a mental note of what happened on the basepaths, but it's up to the defense to enforce any baserunning mistakes (by way of an appeal) and then get a ruling from the umpire. As for the "fourth out", if the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. What this simply means is that the defense is (usually) electing to take the out on appeal (which then becomes the third out of the inning) instead of one of the other out(s) that occurred previously on the play. So, with runners on first and third with one out, R1 is off with the pitch, the batter hits a fly ball. R3 goes back to tag up, the ball is caught and R3 heads for home. The throw goes to first base where R1 is doubled off for the third out of the inning but only after R3 crosses the plate, which means the run would score. However, at this point, the third baseman calls for the ball, gets the umpire's attention, and steps on third base, stating that R3 left early. That appeal is upheld, which would then take precedent over the out at first base, making the appeal at third base the third out instead.
@@freezer8530 See now I'm a little confused at how R3 would be out after you mentioned "R3 goes back to tag up, the ball is caught and R3 heads for home." What I got from that is the runner on 3rd just tagged up after the fly out and headed home. How do you appeal the play to get R3 out when he did what he was supposed to do which was tag up after the ball was caught? Shouldn't your example be both R1 and R3 took off without tagging up at all, fly ball was caught, threw to first to get R1 out, R3 had already crossed home plate to score at this point and for them to not let the score count they have to "appeal" the play and step on 3rd base to get R3 out since he never went back to tag up? Right? Again just trying to understand.
@@TheAlordian I only mention that R3 had GONE back to tag up. I never actually stated (at least initially) whether he tagged up properly within the rules or perhaps otherwise left his base too soon. I conveniently left that part out until it became relevant (when the appeal was made at third base). The important thing to understand here is that the Baseball Rule Book is specifically designed so as to have baserunning infractions involving tag-ups and missed bases to be enforced by the defense. The umpires do not actually enforce these rules at all; instead, they just act as arbitrators, making decisions as to whether or not the defense has a valid claim, but only if the defense should happen to bring their claim to their attention in a timely fashion.
