EDIT: Seems there's a lot of confusion, so I'll explain a bit more down in this pin and also answer those asking for Ellen numbers. I'll also interact a bit less on future comments here, since this blew up and I need to work on other videos. Thank y'all 💖 QINGYI EARLY ACCESS IS AVAILABLE! However, I don't have access to the Early Access/Creator Server. I can still do some calculations based on information from other creators, but I'll probably wait until the release and focus on other characters and mechanics. The Nicole guide is almost finished, and I'll be moving on to Rina/Soukaku before addressing other agents ALSO, THANK YOU FOR ALL THE SUPPORT! I'm finally over 100 subs, and while this is definitely a low number, I'm really happy with this achievement! If you still want some Qingyi calculations and reviews before the release, let me know, and I'll do my best to release my own calculations/guides before the 1.1 Update ============== Yes, stacking DEF Shred% with PEN% is "bad" because one lowers the potential of the other one. Stacking purely DEF Shred% and pure PEN% is better. Thing is: - We only have two units that interacts with said stats (Nicole and Rina) - Not everyone has access to Rina, since she's a Standard S Rank unit - I wanted to saturate PEN%/DEF Shred% values Why saturate? Because a lot of people gets confused and misunderstand when people says: "PEN% is better the more you stack it". Yes, it's better, graph curve shows it. The higher your PEN% the higher your increase on the DEF Multiplier for PEN% increase. But there's a catch here: PEN% competes with DMG% for your Disc 5 slot. Dishing out DMG% for the sake of "Stacking PEN%" is a bad move. You need to distribute things evenly since eventually you'll get diminishing returns. For Grace case, since she gets not DMG% on her Kit and Rina only provides 10% increase, a DMG% disc is the best choice over PEN%. For Zhu Yuan, DMG% has low impact on your shots total damage. But for Ultimate, Chain Attacks, EX SA, and everything else, DMG% is a good increase over PEN%. Ellen CAN run PEN% over DMG%, since there's a lot of DMG% once you stack everything. 25% from R1 Sig, 30% from her Ability, 20% from Soukaku, 15% from Swing Jazz. Unlike Zhu Yuan, this is all Ice/All DMG%, so every part of Ellen's kit will benefit from it. Running Puffer over Polar Metal 2pc is the best choice. PEN% disc is debatable, since it's going to be a matter of sub-stats, especially Flat PEN rolls. Speaking of it, Flat PEN gives a better DPS increase per point the LOWER THE ENEMY DEF. That means that lowering the Enemy DEF using PEN% will increase the value of your Flat PEN rolls. How much this translates to DPS increase is hard to simplify, since there's a lot of other factors to account for. So yeah, min-maxing IS hard. There's no "universally better option", but PEN% ends up being way more situational than DMG% and ATK% options. I'll do my best to convey the message better in the future, instead of simply showcasing numbers and comparisons. That's it, have a beautiful day!
CN forum discussions seem to be ablaze about PEN% being actually better for most level 50 dps teams rn, some say it's only because of element bonus from some rooms this 2 week cycle. I would love to see if this is a stat for Rina havers specifically, since puffer electro is almost impossible to come by in most sources, and it's farm dungeon isn't really... farmed in enough
@@DavidsuperZhong PEN just more useful than DMG, especially when member has high DMG on their core and weapon or in the Hollow Zero. And the fact is if their test on Ellen, Pen will be much better.
Oh, these tests were all done using a calculator that applies the DMG formula over stats. I wouldn't go that far to test total damage numbers like that (maybe, lol) The only things I test in-game are mechanics, interactions between engines/units/mechanics, and rotations/combos
From What I see here Pen% is GOAT since you don't need to get specific elemental% and only lose out on ~5% damage overall. So you can even reuse the Pen% for other characters until you get a much better Elemental% sub stats wise.
@@SlyI42 I would think later enemies will have higher def, especially the elite and boss ones. But I guess the difference between atk% and pen% is not that big unless you already have pen% in the team? or a lot of atk buffs.
sorry I had to 😭 jokes aside, I love parry mechanics, so Ben feels so good to play. Maybe I should take some time to do some Ben calcs and find a good spot between utility and DMG potential
@@okMuzzy The funny thing about Ben is that due to his defense scaling plus his Cinema and W-engine effects, he can actually double as both a Stun and sub-dps agent. Definitely worth exploring
@@Law-of-EnTropy I'm actually using Ben and even clearing the last level of Shiyu Defense using him. Love the big bear and seeing people reducing him to "underwhelming stunner" or "Shielder = Skill Issue" is really sad :c
@@okMuzzy yeah, I think most of that is just people not yet understanding the value of Defense agents, which fills in the traditional support role in most other games. I think the game actually did a great job introducing this role with Ben because we're given a unit that is pretty versatile beyond the damage mitigation they give. Can't wait to see what an S-rank Defense agent can do (most likely the leader of Sons of Calydon)
One cool thing about pen disc over dmg is that you can use pen on any dps vs a specific element disc 👍 (i crafted a pen disc just for that lol can swap that set around to whoever)
Sadly it only really works with Woodpecker since it's universal for dps, but yeah, getting an accidental cracked rolls in the PEN disk, I can see that early "40CDR" happening 😂
This is such a great video, also, i think pen could be more of a stat for teams without such ways to go through defense, such as a lucy piper DPS team for example, but idk mostly of the damage% discs have a higher % increase, pen needs to affect on enemy defense, so the higher the defense the more useful pen is, thats the point, its based on the enemy, while dmg% is based on your own dmg
To be fair, the high defense mobs are the ones you care damage about the most, low def are usually trash mobs that you have no issue killing. It's also close enough that pen disk with good sub stays is better than attack disk with bad substats, so feel free to roll them
So wouldn't it be better to run high attack with some pen% substats or vice versa? Since you deal more raw damage and ignore more amor then it should deal even more than Just having more damage
Super agree! We need more sources of PEN/DEF Shred buffs and tougher enemies as well. To be fair, Break Effect only started to shine once they added Super Break. Boothill is the only break unit that doesn't rely that heavy on Super Break (looking at you FF). DEF Shred wasn't that great on early patches, but damn every single update I feel they're increasing end-game content DEF/HP so Pela and SW still shines here and there.
Reminds me of World of Warcraft way way way back in the day. Up until late 2010 there was a stat called "Armour Penetration". It was removed for being a huge pain in the ass. The idea was that if you could hit the cap for Armour Pen you'd go all in on investing in it, and if you couldn't you'd try as hard as possible to ignore it. It meant completely that you'd completely redo your loadout every time you got a new piece of gear.
Not really. He did the math but doesn't realize why pen ratio's performance was disappointing. It's because he's using Nicole for all the tests. Pen ratio and def shred get better as they stack, but stacking them with each other rather than with themselves will give diminishing returns as you're multiplying two numbers smaller than 1. You want to either use Rina and go full res pen, or use Nicole and just forget about res pen entirely.
Right, all this video told me was that I can get a crit set pen% randomly with crazy stats and it can be shared between multiple units if needed while farming dmg bonus
i think pen is great if you are fighting against enemies that are resistant to your damage type. why would i do this, though? well, because i love my fire lineup and i dont care if the enemy is fire resistant.
Maybe that stat is for future content? I have a bad feeling they're gonna drop some mobs and bosses with insane amounts of defense. Maybe it's just cope because I actually got a disc 5 puffer, with Pen% main stat and rolled 4 times on crit dmg substat.
Yup, it's definitely for future content, it will probably get to the same level as a ATK% disc once enemies start to scale to Lvl 80 or so (I'm coping as well lol) damn Crit DMG +4 is insane tho, congrats 👀
i think pen is somewhat similar circumstances with early hsr on break effect, it feels like a pseudo atk if the toughness bar crack but thats it. Then they release a system that multiplied a break effect even bigger cause super break, so maybe this is just some build up to anomaly type shredding defense later down the line. It feels undone, hopefully pen doesnt left kept and useless like this
This basically just means pen is as good as atk or dmg% in all scenarios 5% is literally nothing unless you're clearing Shiyu with 1-10 seconds remaining
I heard pen% is better than dmg% on disc 5 for nekomata specifically with her signature weapon. She gets so much dmg% from her two passives, 2 sources from her weapon passive, and then team buffs that it actually makes pen% or atk% better (pen better if youre getting atk buffs from team). Not sure if this still applies with nicole, but it holds true with the neko/piper/lucy team.
Yes, you're right, saturating the DMG pool means that going for other multiplies is the best way to get some good return. ATK is also a great option, but PEN is fine as well.
I would love to see a breakdown on the effect PEN vs ATK% substat rolls. As a main stat it's clearly worse than DMG%, but as a substat alongside CRIT I'm not sure what effect it has.
Flat PEN is usually as bad as Flat ATK, useful, but low impact in your DPS. But the more PEN% you can stack, the better the value for Flat PEN. I don't think there's a scenario where stacking PEN% and going for Flat PEN isn't detrimental to your DPS, so for now just focus on the usual Crit Rolls > ATK% > ATK = PEN
This really is solidifying my theory in my head that penetration is a stat for anomalies not for damage dealers who relies on crits. Sadly, anomaly damage here is not shown. We would like to know the increase of the anomaly effects.
I don't even know what to say but: I know PEN is "better" to Anomaly based units, that's why Grace was my first thought when testing PEN. That's also why Grace calcs are all over the video. TL;DR DMG% is better for Grace since she has no DMG% increase on her kit. If the unit has access to 80%+ DMG, you can use 2pc Puffer over 2pc Elemental Set. Disc 5 PEN% is close to pointless unless it's for Rina or future content.
@@okMuzzy I am sorry for bothering you. My anomaly team is still not done so there are still questions in my head. I want something like this- Trigger shock ->takeover with assault -> takeover with shock etc. No worries though. In due time, I will reach an answer to my question if my idea is feasible or not
No problem, feel free to ask. That's called a Disorder team, it's viable and strong if you can consistently apply different anomalies on enemies. But even for this scenario (let's say, Piper/Jane + Grace + Rina), you still need to build AP and DMG% numbers before going for PEN%. And Grace, as I said, will benefit from a good DMG% Disc over PEN%.
@@okMuzzy Yeah. I dont plan on having PEN on grace drives. Just on her weapon plus Rina. I want huge numbers on Disorder so i want proficiency on Grace
Good vid! I think these results kinda mean that if you got godrolls ony your pen piece, you can still use it, and not lose a ton of dmg. So it kinda means you got 3 good/decent substats for 5 slot (Edmg/atk/pen in that order,) which can make farming in the early game more lenient. Also like with atk, you can use that piece on different element units too, which is quite the value, especially in the early endgame, where your kinda forced to swap around gear anyway.
I have a question would you continue with the black screens? I like those, you video is fun while being informative. Now I've learned I can dismantle all pen discs.
I want to clarify a few things here: Pen% is only ~5% worse than elemental % on average on DPS right? So in that sense it becomes a universally useful stat you can use every DPS no matter the element. How does Pen% compare to Atk%? I saw you mention it in the commenst that Pen% is not better than Atk%? But how can that be?
PEN is 5% worse than Ether DMG on Zhu Yuan for the sole reason she's already super stacked on DMG% bonuses. For characters without huge DMG% bonuses, PEN% is even worse. Ellen for example loses DPS when running PEN% over DMG%. ATK% is better on Zhu Yuan since she lacks ATK% bonuses, that's not exactly the same thing for Ellen, for example, since she usually runs Soukaku and gets 1000 ATK from her. So there's no such thing as "universal stat", if you're still looking for something useful across every character, ATK% is safer than PEN%.
What about anomalies? They are only affected by attack, dmg % and PEN / def. reduction. So there's going to be more diminishing returns on ATK and DMG %.
For now, all anomaly units don't get easy access to DMG%. Piper gets some from her Additional Ability, but it's only 18%. Grace gets zero DMG%. Jane still needs to be confirmed and we hoyo can change details before going live, so I can't say anything about it. It's a really rough and not a perfect representation of "saturation", but if you can manage to hit around 90~120% DMG without a Disc 5, then going for PEN is "even" with DMG. If Jane manage to gets around this, she's probably fine running PEN or ATK, but as usual, it's a matter of sub-stats.
so apparently damage resist by the enemies affect damage, daze, and status buildup. with that being said, does pen ratio mitigate all three of these then? so would this be ideal on a stunner to effectively inflict daze faster?
pen% should affect daze% multipliers as well, as it is currently, going atk% is just better, and for rina really she's just an anomaly agent in disguise to help rotations
This clarified a lot, thanks, but still there's not a single person doing the crazy calcs I need, since what I'm planning to do is some dumb sh*t like running a Stunner as a DPS lol What I wanna invest in is a comp of M0 Lycaon with Sig W-E, M1 Rina and M6 Soukaku. Since both Lycaon and Soukaku apply Ice Res shred (to a max of 35%) and he technically have a Dmg buff in his kit thanks to the stun dmg multiplier buff (of also 35%) that he provides, I just wanted to confirm how much the damage would drop by running a PEN Ratio Disc 5, since I already got a good PEN% piece with good substats for his future build I thought 'bout using my M6 Nicole instead of Soukaku as well, since Lycaon would also have a 15% Crit Rate buff paired with the extra Def shred, but I definitely don't want to lose Soukaku's crazy Atk buff 'cause Lycaon would be built on an Impact Disc 6... Guess I'll just have to hope his damage wouldn't drop over 4-5% compared to an Ice Dmg% Disc P.s.: oh, and Soukaku also provide a 20% Ice Dmg buff to the team, forgot to mention that
Well, I love playing "meme" builds so hope your Lycaon DPS works lol As for DPS loss, I can't say for sure since I didn't ran any calculations here, but unless you're going for Polar Metal 4pc, I'm sure that Soukaku won't be enough to saturate Lycaon DMG% pool. RES and Stun bonus doesn't mix with DMG% numbers, they are all different multipliers, so all your DMG% comes from: Restrained Stacks (6~30% for your BA Only), Soukaku (20%), Swing Jazz (15%), Polar Metal 2pc(10%) and Disc 5 (30%). If you're running Polar Metal 4pc, you'll get a total of 26~70% bonus DMG on your BAs + 45% DMG from sources listed above. So you'll be fine running a Disc 5 PEN% since you'll be pairing Lycaon with Rina.
@OkMuzzy Well sh*t, nope, I'm actually farming a 4-piece Woodpecker for him lol _since I need the 8% Crit Rate from the 2-piece to reach the Crit Ratio I want in the build easier (a minimum of 68/136) and the 4-piece is the most consistent buff and more relevant than the effect from 4-piece Shockstar Disco, I gave higher priority to it over the extra Daze while planning on running 2-piece Shockstar for the extra Impact, since faster Dazes still meant faster stun dmg multiplier buff, no Polarstar in sight... my only straight-up Ice Dmg for him this way would have been Soukaku's additional passive Oh, and yeah, I deduced the resistances shred and the stun dmg multiplier buff were different calcs, I was just hoping it was all relevant enough to take away some of the need for an Ice Dmg% Disc 5 Welp, guess I'll just have to get an Ice Dmg% Disc that has as good substats as my current PEN Ratio one than... **sadge**
Woodpecker 4pc is consistent, but I think you won’t get enough ATK to make the 4pc effect good enough. What Disc 4 are you planning to run? Maybe a 2-2-2 build can work until you get a 4pc Polar or something else: 2 Shockstar, 2 Woodpecker, 2 Polar Metal
@OkMuzzy It's a Crit Rate Disc, also needed for the Crit Ratio I mentioned I plan to reach before _I don't even have a Lycaon yet, so I totally can farm a 4-piece Polar Metal for him if I wanted to, since I also have an Ellen using one and better pieces for her would always be welcomed I just can't not run him on a 2-piece Woodpecker 'cause I really need the 8% Crit Rate, otherwise it's almost impossible to get the extra 4 crit rate substats to reach the 68% that I need _I prefer running him on a 4-piece Woodpecker Electro set with an Ice Dmg% Disc 5 than running him on a 4-piece Polar Metal set with a Pen Ratio% Disc 5 if that's what I need to do to offset the lack of Ice Dmg% to him in the build
Hello, thank you for the video, first of all ! I do have a question; the way the formula is laid out, flat PEN seems to combine a bit too well with high PEN% (due to it being applied after the PEN% rather than before), to an extent where most other sub stats seem really underwhelming by comparison. Am I missing something here, by any chance ?
No, you're right, Flat PEN gets increased value as PEN% is stacked, since the closer the enemy DEF is to 0, the higher the DEF Multiplier. Let's say you're dealing against an enemy that has 1000 DEF, and you have 0% PEN and 90 Flat PEN. That -90DEF equals to only 9% of the enemy total DEF. But if you apply 32% PEN (-320DEF), that same 90 Flat PEN gets increased value, since -90 DEF is the same as ~13.24% from the enemy DEF. If you get a lot of Flat PEN rolls in your subs, going for PEN% is not a bad idea, but finding a middle ground between DMG%, ATK%, Crit Ratios and PEN% is quite hard and case-specific. I wouldn't say that other stats feels underwhelming though. Most of the other relevant sub-stats are % stats instead of Flat ones. Flat ATK can still be interacted with by using Combat ATK% buffs, but it's still a "weak" sub-stat.
I'm sorry but what tool did you use for your calculations? In my tests (zhu test 1 in this particular case) the dmg& buff she recieve from core skill and sig1 is so saturated (115% increase in total, not counting the 10% from chaotic 2-set) that in a 2 chaotic + 4 woodpecker, pen% on disk 5 outclasses elemental dmg%. So my question is am I doing something wrong in the calculations?
I use my own calculator for all the data shown in my video. PEN% on Disc 5 will give a better damage than going for Ether DMG%, but that only applies to your Basic Attacks/Shots. For my video, I've used a full burst rotation that consists of Ultimate, Chain Attacks, Quick Assists and EX SA uses. For all these skills, Ether DMG% provides better DPS potential, since the 115% DMG only works for Basic Attacks. I should have explained about the rotation, but completely forgot about it. Hope that clears any possible misunderstanding in your calculations!
Do we have numbers on enemy defenses? Logically the pen ratio would get better, the higher the defense is right? Since 100% pen ratio would just erase defense no matter how high it is set
Thanks for the very insightful video, this basically confirms what I was thinking when I saw the stat. Pen is pretty much only so useful when there’s already high damage present since it’s based off defense like Zhu Yuan and her insane damage stats. So characters who rely on the crit and atk stats for their damage will find it harder to justify having more pen due to already needing those other stats to bump up their damage to be competitive. Ignoring defense isn’t as useful as just punching the wall hard enough.
How about pen/dmg% vs enemies that resist a certain element? I'd Imagine pen beats out flat dmg there but and that's the only reasonable use I could think for it but I haven't tried it.
PEN only affects the enemy DEF, not RES. These are two different multipliers. There are only a few units and Mindscape that interacts with the Enemy RES, such as Lycaon Ice RES and Zhu Yuan M4, for example.
Yes, Disc 5 is the main issue. In most scenarios, going for ATK% or DMG% gives you higher damage potential than going for PEN%. Flat PEN in your sub-stat rolls is also undesirable (unless you're already close to 100% PEN), but at least it's damage.
With Ben best strat is to abuse Perfect Assist to get him into position. Have him placed to the right of your setup character (Whether thats a support or stunner or whatever you fancy using), especially if that character is ranged, and he can teleport across the battle to slap shit instantly. Same for chain attacks. If I ever find myself having to run at an enemy with Ben, I switch out because dude is a snail lmao
The DEF Shred is refreshed every time your energy field deals damage, but yes, the uptime is still quite low. You need some quick swaps just to cast your EX Special or do a quick basic attack to refresh the DEF Shred, so she's mostly used under stun windows, her Chain Attack also leaves a Energy Field so you can get a good uptime through the whole stun window depending on the character you're using. Rina M1 is definitely better than Nicole when it comes to PEN/DEF Shred.
as fire has burn and ice froze, then shatter i thought penetration was the physical variant of “secondary damage” , is not significant that you can sit and let the effect kill , but is that lil push that eventually helps a lot also in the hollow zero theres the Resonium that boosts attacks from behind my guess is that Pen is similar , and for people that dont wanna strategize that much go the easy route and fight in front anyway 😂
I think the best way to think about this is: if an enemy has 100 def, then you're ignoring 32 def. But if you have nicole, that def is reduced to 60 def afterwards. This means your 32% pen is only penetrating 19.2 def now. You LOSE value by playing with nicole/def debuffer, where you would normally GAIN value by using a 30% dmg boost because of the def shred. Tldr: do NOT use pen% with nicole but DO use it when you have plenty of in-battle atk/dmg% buffs. Ez explanation 👌
For Ellen with her sig in [Ellen Lycaon Soukaku], 5-Pen + 2pc Puffer is BIS strictly when comparing her basic attack damage and I'm surprised you didn't even discuss Ellen in the video. Also, even if pen is slightly worse in the cases you outlined and overall in a full rotation casting ex-special and burst, it makes flat pen substat rolls more valuable. At high %pen values, each 9 flat pen substat roll is worth ~0.6-0.8% more damage assuming you're hitting an end-game Shiyu boss or something, and that's competitive with crit value substat rolls on Ellen specifically since Ellen supersaturates crit value from her sig and her kit. For Zhu Yuan in her current and future [ZY (Anby, Qingyi), Nicole] team, her best disk 5 in order is Atk% > Ether% > Pen%, and that's not even with sig. Atk% is still better than Ether% with Starlight Engine or Brimstone, and if you have ZY sig, atk% pulls ahead further. Weird that you're comparing Pen% vs Ether% when Atk% is just better assuming level 60 proper investment. Also as an aside, in Hollow Zero where pretty much all damage boosting resonia are either dmg% or crit related, Atk% becomes not even close with Ether%.
Ellen only gets 5-PEN + Puffer as BiS if you're running Polar Metal over Woodpecker, which would be the case in a "basic attack" as you pointed out. I don't think a third scenario is necessary just to point out how saturation works and how PEN% shouldn't be prioritized over DMG% and ATK% unless you already saturate either of these multipliers. For Zhu Yuan I stated in the video that once you adds Nicole in the team, the best Disc 5 is going to be ATK% and not Ether DMG%, I simply tested through all the video using Ether DMG% for the sake of consistency. And for SE or Brimstone, ATK% only starts to beat DMG% if Nicole's Sig is R3+. But even at R5, the difference between DMG% and ATK% is negligible, just like Puffer 2pc vs Polar 2pc for a Woodpecker 4pc Ellen Scenario.
i have a freedom blues pen ratio disc 5, with +27 anomaly proficiency, +6% attack, and 19 flat attk. should I use this or keep trying to find a physical dmg one for my jane? i don't have rina yet
TLDR: If you have Nicole/Rina in your party, Main DPS use DMG% ; If you don't have both support who give IgnoreDEF%/Pen%, Main DPS use Pen%. Bonus Dmg Formula: EnemyDEF = BaseLv*BaseDEF*(1+DEF Increase-DEF Decrease)*(1-Pen%)-Pen TLDR2: Pen% & IgnoreDEF% is important against Boss only, not Mob. TLDR3: Casual Player who didn't care about late-game content, all the way use DMG%
Overall: DMG% > ATK% > PEN% (unless you're Rina then PEN is the best option) Complete answer: It depends in a lot of factors, Weapons, Swing Jazz and support agents can add DMG% to your main DPS which could saturate DMG% multiplier. Meaning that in this case, ATK% renders a better DPS over DMG%. If everything is saturated, you could go for PEN% over the two options, but the only scenario (so far) where everything is so saturated to the point where 5-PEN% is an option is Ellen running Polar Metal 4pc, and this is only for her Basic Attacks.
Great video So are there diminising returns between defense shred and pen%? Or in other words, does pen% lose value compared to atk%/dmg%/etc. when a defense shred is applied?
Sort of, when both get applied at the same time, one lowers the effectiveness of the other, stacking a single one is "better" but the only PEN source outside of your 2pc Set and Disc 5 is Rina. The same goes for DEF Shred. Hopefully we'll get weapons and other stuff that can interact with the enemy DEF in the future.
making sure i understand correctly, basically avoid pen main stat on the main dps right? my supp w-engine on Rina is slice of time which is decibel generation, other than that and soukaku's sig, no supp w-engine. so her buff based on her stat is only the pen, hence I still stack her pen to give to the team? cuz i dont see what other unique value she offers: my dps could outdmg her, my stun could outdaze her, thus the last slot of the team goes to either attack buffer (soukaku for ellen, lucy for piper or soldier 11) or dealing with enemy defense (rina and nicole)
Yes, this is a comparison made on DMG% vs PEN% Disc 5 for DPS units. Rina still shares her PEN% with allies, so there's no reason to not build PEN% on her, since you don't need to swap your DPS' Disc 5 for PEN
Why didn't you test with ellen? She already has a bunch of sources of ice dmg%, with her core passive giving 30%, soukaku giving 20% and polar metal giving 10%. In her best team (ellen/lycaon/soukaku) she has no other sources of defence shred, so wouldnt a pen% disc perform better?
Am I crazy or is there literally no way to tell if Nicole's DEF shred is on an enemy? Seems like such a glaring oversight not to tell us when its worn off and we just have to count down the seconds in our head. Also... 3.5 seconds is such a criminally low duration. Should be like 5 or something at least.
you can see enemy debuffs on the top right below the enemy health bar. Supports are a must have, and Nicoles buffs are higher than Rina's (a 5 star). Nicoles ex-special does last around 5 seconds in total after you press ex-special since it lingers. Rina's only lasts around 8 seconds (around 13 seconds with Cinema 1) but can be triggered with a basic attack. I also wish the buffs lasted a bit longer.
Edit: You actually can check the boss buffs/debuffs on the HP bar that appears in the top right corner of your screen, thanks @pikakillah_8015 for pointing it out! 3.5s is "fine" since the energy field can be charged in order to stay for a while, but I agree, a bit more wouldn't hurt. Even thought Nicole's buff is way stronger (against bosses), Soukaku's buff lasts for 22s~30s and Lucy's last for 10s~15s, so 3.5s feels unfair. Sadly, I doubt they're going to change anything that's already live on the game, so it's up to the player to optimize their rotation in order to benefit from the DEF Shred :c
You can't see a health bar / debuff list on every boss enemy, maybe just super bosses or fights without timers since the timer is always in place of it. I'd prefer something we can see on the health bars directly above the enemy, that's mostly what I meant.
Great video, bro! Answered a very relevant question and put some of my build anxiety to rest. Truly god's work right there. On that note, may I ask what your mother tongue is? I am kind of obsessed with English, you see, and love paying attention to these details. And I myself am Brazilian, too, which does make me wonder if you and I have that in common. O v O Cheers!
maybe its something for the future bosses or its for f2p or extra dmg stat there was a boss with shield also can you do anomaly too also should i go for crit atk% or element%
So tell me if im crazy but I feel like PEN on Ellen is still the smartest way to go. Atleast the two piece bonus. My Crit and Crit dmg are silly and my Atk is over 2500. I have an Ice dmg bonus on disc 5. At what point is more dmg just a waste? I feel like Pen is the way to go in that scenerio right?
From my calculations, for Lv60 Ellen + R1 Sig + DMG% Disc 5 + Soukaku + Swing Jazz, Polar 2pc is still slightly better than Puffer 2pc, but it's only a 0.75% difference. Going for either is fine, Puffer is better if you don't mind the "DPS loss" and rather feel a bit future-proof for future scaling scenarios. Just don't go for Disc 5 PEN% since the damage loss is huge over Ice DMG%. I'd say that starting from 80%~100%, DMG% starts to feel saturated and you'll get a better value from new multiplier sources. If your total DMG% hits around this value and you have a good ATK, feel free to go for Puffer 2pc since the DPS difference is negligible.
@@okMuzzy Could we see the increase in damage of anomaly effects due to PEN? I think we could see damage increase there. Effects rely on anomaly proficiency more so i think PEN would be valuable on raising anomaly damage. Also how much is the difference between attack% and PEN% if we add the effect like shock? I think anomaly is the key to understanding the value of PEN.
Just don't use pen% with nicole since her kit has armor shred%. This actually makes the stats pen% less valueable. At first, pen% actually equal to dmg% bonus, but they are 2 seperate multipliers. If you want to use nicole, get some flat pen for your dps, since nicole shreds a pecentage amount of armor, it makes flat pen more valueable. Another tip is that if you have rina, give her a pen% 5th disk and your dps dmg% bonus since rina will provide your dps some pen% eventually. For other sp like shoukaku and lucy, you can still use pen% 5th disk for your dps, no problem. This is kind of similar to genshin's furina burst since it provides dmg% and it overlap with elemental dmg bonus so she would need to use a hp goblet. I just hope that you dont provide the community with some wrong information.
i wonder if PEN ratio would be better on soldier 11 given the amount of elemental damage she gets from her core passive or would stacking fire dmg still be better? 🤔
Fire DMG is still better for a burst rotation. Just like Zhu Yuan, the Core effect only affects her Basic Attacks, Ultimate, EX SA and Chain Attacks won't benefit from her core.
@@okMuzzy sorry i meant her additional ability. she gets 32.5% fire damage when attacking a stunned enemy so i wasn’t sure if PEN ratio in the 5th slot would be better in that situation. pretty much she gets 42.5% fire damage (2 pc inferno) before her 5th slot is considered
It's going to depend a bit on other sources of DMG, such as Support W-Engines, Swing Jazz and future units. But 42.5% is still on the "low" side, so going for a DMG disc is the best choice. But for the secondary 2pc effect, going for Puffer is completely fine.
Stupid question maybe. So, 2pc puffer is the worst choice for damage dealers in 4+2 scenario? Like, if you have Ellen with 4pc woodpecker, she'll prefer to go with 2pc polar than 2pc puffer, right?
Either is fine, since you'll usually be pairing Ellen with Soukaku (and Swing Jazz) and a DMG% Disc 5, so you add a good DMG% for Ellen. Polar is slightly better, but if you get Puffer pieces with good rolls, feel free to use it.
Neko can definitely use a ATK or PEN disc over DMG. For Piper, I can't say for sure, but I believe DMG disc 5 + 2pc Freedom Blues is better than ATK/PEN + 2pc Puffer.
Why you think 1 pen = 1% defense ignore? I thought it is more like "1 enemy def point ignore" 🤔 Maybe we will get DD who has like 500 pen or something, and they'll be broken af
Im surprised you didnt test what Pen was obviously good for- overleveled content- the level 70s in training room. Pen seems to be the "i am fighting stuff i really am not equipped for" stat
LOL I'm actually even thinking if it's worth to build a "DPS" Rina over "PEN" Rina, but honestly, free PEN is still free DPS increase. So it's safe to build Rina using PEN% Disc 5 since you'll be increasing your other units DPS.
@@Chipubear if u get m1 on rina she actually gets almost 40% pen on her passive, so if i didnt misunderstood, this is the same as nicole def shred, i mean, even better since if u get some pen it scales better than getting pen+ def shred
That's not true with multiple small hitting offensive characters like Corin and Anton, I tried changed from Attack or Dmg percent to Pen and the difference is noticable. If your team have def debuff, you shouldn't go for Pen.
isn't penetration a debuff on enemies that last few seconds that you use with any character before switching to the att char for max dmg? there are 2 types of penetration, one is instant on contact on enemies, and another is actually a debuff penetration that last some time after attacking contact with enemies. attack char when equip with penetration stat is instant penetration (no duration), but char like defence char use time duration penetration.
What?! So my Rina is sht? 😢 I always use her with Ellen since my Team consists of full House Keeping Co. Ellen, Lycaon & Rina, I don't want to build my Soukkaku Also i was really planning on getting Rina's M1 so the buffs can stay longer but....is it not worth anymore?
Isn't penetration a debuff that last for 2s to 8s on enemies that you use before switching to att character, then you use attack char with att% to attack the enemy to get max dmg?
No it's not a debuff PEN ratio/PEN is a character stat, Def reduction is a debuff. What you are referring to is just Nicole's core skill which is def reduction, the uptime is not inherent to the debuff itself.
Don't pair ANY DPS that has PEN% with Nicole. Attacker has too many stats to keep track of already. Focus on getting a good 1:2 Ratio first. PEN Flat is good in any circunstance. But it's not/will never be better than what your current character needs. It all depends on the level of saturation your character carries in each stat. Just as we don't want 110% in the Critical Rate value, we don't want to have 60% penetration rate. The 24%+8% (PEN) gives us almost the same value as a traditional Disc 5. (32 to 30) DO NOT SATURE THIS STATUS. BUILD YOUR TEAM BETTER. If there are low values, keep them well distributed.
how will i function with 5% less damage? this information is life ruining. my figurative house is crumbling at the foundation, and i will fall into a sinkhole. jokes aside, i think pen working without having to necessarily worry about crit dmg/rate ratios is pretty convenient, although shifting the worry to what enemy your fighting is particularly bad since it means your characters sink or swim entirely by the context of the stage... if its just slaughtering a bunch of pawns then youre amputating yourself
No, ATK% and DMG% (for their main element) is better. Usually that "physical" portion of the DMG is minimal and the skill MVs are lower than their "right" elemental hits. Unless something change in the future and we start to get some sort of hybrid/multi-elemental agent, it isn't worth it to go for a broad scaling over focusing on your main element.
Yea sorry i should have precised that i'm talking about situation where it split in a fair amount of the both damage type. i'm aware it's a rare case.. Tho even if it's not the highest MV most of the time, having your stat buff only 90% of your total damage instead of 100% can already be pretty big to me. learned that with how worse focus damage type increase can be in wuwa compared to atk, even when the atk stat in itself is worse in wuwa than zzz iirc.
It's a bit of hard to give a precise answer since it would depend on your rotations. But even so, for the enemies that we have right now, ATK% would be a better option over PEN%. Maybe once we start to get some Lv80 enemies in Shiyu Defense, PEN can get on pair with ATK%.
Enemies in hollow difficulty 11 = lvl80. PEN will have much more value against them. Also, there's only 7 floors in SD atm with lvl70 bosses, I'm pretty sure in the near future there will be at least 10 to 12 floors total in this mode with lvl80 enemies. Just keep the PEN stats disks for now.
muddy i have lycaeon,koleda,zhu yuan and rina, im lacking of 1 dps ( currently using corin ),im considering should i pull for jane doe or qing yi next part, if i pull for jane doe, i need to build a completely new anomaly team, which cost a huge amount of materials that im already scarce of,also there are chances that jane doe will just be out of meta for the next 3-4 version, and since she is a dps, she will be useless if that happen. Qing yi otherwise is much more flexible, so i dont have to worry that she will be out of meta, she literaly can fit in any team, and her ability is quite good for boosting dmg, however, i have 2 S stun already. Should i roll any of them or just skip both?
i think pen is great if you are fighting against enemies that are resistant to your damage type. why would i do this, though? well, because i love my fire lineup and i dont care if the enemy is fire resistant.
Flat pen is what you want vs 90% of enemies in the game. It will generally equate to more damage than just attack and apply that number shred to every enemy. Percentage shred is good only vs endgame content and bosses, but it's better to have it on a dedicated shredder who can proc it and make way for your main dmg dealer. There is also another effect to pen in this game: it makes enemies more susceptible to anomaly buildup. So the more defense you shred the quicker you can build anomalies. Very useful info if you're using an anomaly based character or disorder teams
I don't know where you got the information that PEN affects Anomaly Buildup, but this isn't true. Anomaly Buildups are only affected by Anomaly Mastery (Disc 6), default enemy Weakness, and Buildup RES or Buildup Increase Flat PEN isn't bad, but unless the enemy DEF is already low enough, Flat ATK will give better DPS over Flat PEN. Also, Flat ATK can be increased through Combat ATK% buffs, such as 4pc Woodpecker Electro and W-Engine effects
Thank you for the video! In the end, I personally don't think I got out of it what I was selfishly hoping for, however. So I learned that Pen as a stat is is weaker than Elemental Damage, which is good. But what I'm curious about is how much this affects Rina's viability as a support? She's currently my only S Standard Agent, and besides the shock synergy her niche is giving a portion of her Pen% to her DPS. Just how much of a DPS increase is a fully Pen% Rina giving to a DPS like Zhu or Corrin? Is it just better to run a support that gives straight ATK instead? Does this mean Slice of Time is weak on Rina, despite the big Pen% Passive it gives, because besides that it doesn't give any DMG increase, just decibel generation? Thank you for any who reads this and can help me out.
