"These Cards Are Destroying EDH"

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Win-More cards are drawing increasing hate/ire from the community and also creators.
I have watched dozens of videos, where these types of cards are villainized. But is it actually a big deal?
I guess we'll find out.
PATREON - patreon.com/TempestOfficial
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Email: tempesttcgofficial@gmail.com

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Опубликовано:

26 мар 2024

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Комментарии : 45

@lokumo13 3 месяца назад

Good points. Tho fyi-Apex of Power is on Prosper’s page mostly due to it being included in the 99 of the precon he came in.

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

Yes. That is true. Still alarmingly high for what it offers the play experience.

@lokumo13 3 месяца назад

@@Tempest-Official absolutely! It’s just worth mentioning that it may not be due to a conscious bias is all.

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

Hey everyone! Check out my Patreon in the description if you'd like to support what I'm doing with the channel. I had a few issues with video on this one, this should be fixed for the next video. I hope everyone has a wonderful week!

@gabrielkopp9248 3 месяца назад

Good insight! Powerful staples are for sure paradoxically both overplayed and under-utilized. I think people automatically assume they will be good on their own (which in some cases is true i.e. Rhystic Study) but don’t support the card’s power with a list it belongs in or a proper play pattern. Every sorcery-speed cast of a Cyclonic Rift is a testament to this

@robertomacetti7069 3 месяца назад

and that's why i cut win more cards in favor of removals and other interaction i also got in the habit of searching the effects i want on scryfall and going to edhrec only afterwards to see what i may have missed

@christophknorr4635 3 месяца назад

You're making some very good points here. Especially regarding the EDH-Rec effect, which is definitely a problem if you're not thinking critically. I still think that Anointed Procession and other Token Doublers, can be not Just Win-More cards in Cadira. I play them in my built, but I sandbag them until Cadira is able to deal somewhat around 5 to 10 Damage with a Single Attack and I made sure that Cadira has Double Strike. Playing Anointed Procession on such a board and getting 40 Tokens or so, that can finish the Game in the next Turn is just an immediate Threat. However playing it on a Board without any Set-Up just doesn't make sense. I think you need to be critical not only about whether a Card is good or not in your Deck but also when to play it. Another good example for a Card that seems like Win-More is Crackle With Power in my Goblin Deck. It seems unlogical to play such a card when you can just win with an army of Tokens. But if I run into Propagande effects, which are hard to deal with in Mono-Red Sacrificing all my Goblins into Skirk Prospector and finishing the Game with Crackle with Power is just an alternative Win-Condition. For That reason I also included Brightstone Ritual and Battle Hymn that can produce enough Mana to fill Crackle with power. At the end the most important thing is to avoid stuffing your deck full with Win-More cards while missing the synergy pieces.

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

1000% If you tactically set yourself up, THEN play one of the win-more cards, they go from a liability to a game ender. But oh-boy do I see a lot of people NOT doing that. lol. I'm happy to hear you've made the educated decision to do so. And thank you for commenting/sharing your experience. :)

@ChiefPrime_ 3 месяца назад

Like many other communities it seems many in magic like to point out dislikes they have but instead of voicing that they make it seem like a massive ordeal. They don't look at it objectively and how it effects the overall game like many of the points made in this video. That being said I've kept no interest in any of the drama and just play the game I enjoy with friends.

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

Hey ChiefPrime. Good seeing you, again. It's definitely a better choice for in-person play to keep the drama out of it. You're their to play some games, not moan about issues in EDH.

@rulamagic 3 месяца назад

Is it possible that people are playing these cards wrong? Playing Anointed Procession and passing on turn four is probably a bad idea for all the reasons you mentioned. But if I'm getting value right away the card is used well.

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

100%. This video could have been a 1 hour long video essay with examples just like this one.

@marshallscot 3 месяца назад

I think in the analysis of "winmore" cards and specifically how popular they are in EDH versus other formats, people tend to forget the inherent differences in a 2 player game versus a 3 or 4 player game. In a 2 player game, a small advantage is often all that is needed to win the game over several turns. In a multiplayer game, that incremental advantage will take many more turns to manifest a win versus 3 opponents. You often need an overwhelming advantage to feel comfortable swinging out against 3 opponents which can gang up on the backswing. The winmore card is often exactly what you need to overcome a stalemate and finally finish a game in which you are supposedly "already winning." For example, a card which doubles or triples your mana output is exactly what you need to win a game against 3 opponents who collectively have about 3 times as much mana as you do. Any EDH deck needs a bunch of different types of cards: mana base, ramp, removal, threats, wincons, and even "winmore" cards. The winmore card when played properly puts a clock on the whole table, essentially saying "deal with this threat or lose in the next several turns" even if it doesn't win on the spot. If you're boardstate is already at a critical mass than a winmore card is now simply a wincon. At worst it's a removal magnet which distracts the table from your actual wincon.

@Thoughtmage100 3 месяца назад

I do not like the philosophy behind defining cards as "win more". I prefer to think of the game in terms of putting your opponents on a "clock" instead. If you have a 1/1 Soldier and your opponent has 20 life then you have a "20 turn clock". Cards like Doubling Season speed up that clock, assuming you provide it with tokens to double. (Which you should if you're putting Doubling Season in your deck in the first place). What you are losing in terms of immediate value for your mana, you gain in clock speed, and clock speed is the ultimate goal of the game. "Sure I can defeat an opponent from 40 life with 20 2/2 bear tokens, but if I had 60 bears I defeat all three of my opponents instead."

@pwootton24 3 месяца назад

That feeling when you have all those cards in one deck…😬

@marshallscot 3 месяца назад

It would be cool if EDHRec had a section that was something like "found in less than 10% of decks." Might be a good way of finding hidden gems.

@paulszki Месяц назад

I think, if the commander has a precon, it would already be cool, if you could filter out / hide all cards that are in the precon. There is already a feature to get close to what you're suggesting though. Say there's a card that YOU like that is great for a commander but it's way down the list or not even on it because the card interacts with the commander/deck idea in such a different way, that it wouldn't show up on any scrycall search. For example, there's currently 3666 "Rafiq of the Many" decks. Only 22 of them run Conclave Sledge-Captain, which at 6 mana is one of the most efficient combos with rafiq to just kill one player. Basically you backup rafiq three times with sledge-captain, so he's 6/6 with the ability "whenever this deals damage to a play, put that many +1/+1-counters on it" but it has that ability THREE times, and additionally it gives trample. Since Rafiq has double strike, he will deal 6 damage on the first hit, then quadrupple his p/t to 24/24 and then hit a second time for 24, instantly killing the other play, and quadrupling again to 96/96. The numbers change, if there's a blocker in the way. So if you discover an interaction like that, you CAN on the edhrec-page for that commander chose to only see decks which also feature, say Conclave Sledge-Captain. Now you'll be shown only the cards that are in those 22 decks that also have conclave sledge-captain in them as well. You can also do the opposite. You can filter out cards, which I think may be a good way to filter out the "precon"-decklists that made little to no changes to the deck.

@marshallscot 21 день назад

@@paulszki Lol that is absolutely nuts, I didn't realize you could use Backup like that. I didn't believe you at first but the card rulings on Scryfall confirmed exactly what you said.

@paulszki 21 день назад

@@marshallscot yeah, the card is completely busted for voltron commanders like Rafiq of the Many.

@jessewills7441 3 месяца назад

Since I started following your channel, the channel growth has been decent, keep it up! 😃 Also look forward to seeing some more deck list videos in the future. The detail you went in for the Orvar deck was really good. And one more thing, it's so good to watch a content creator that isn't going 200% on the in your face energy

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

Don't worry. More decks and interesting cards are coming. :) Thank you for following, it's always good to see folks returning to the channel.

@tko_5 3 месяца назад

Well put. That's exactly how I approach it. I just quietly build up my board while everyone panics about what's on the board from that one player. Then my $50 Deck single-handlely beats a $50 card. That being said it's okay to use these cards I think it's up to us, as creative strategic community, to find ways to succeed in a win. I think that's why we like Commander. Or maybe that's why I like Commander. I like to find strategic ways to win.

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

Just built a few budget decks myself. Cheers to that! I hope you have continued success in your games.

@smugflunky 3 месяца назад

Dude your channel rocks. I normally dont comment but your videos are great and i want to boost your interaction haha

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

@smugflunky. You rock. Keep the interaction boosting up!

@purpl3nurgle 3 месяца назад

6+ mana spells should not be used to durdle, especially if it makes you the archenemy. Even in a control deck, a 5 mana card that durdles is pushing it.

@fastydave 3 месяца назад

Great stuff as always! Also I'll have the cake :P

@michaelturner2806 3 месяца назад

As a player of Naya Big Tokens with Ghired, I love these token doublers and run three of them in my deck, plus an enchantment tutor. I love slapping one down to an empty board, jokingly saying I'm baiting out removal or moving to archenemy step. Then play a Giant Adephage or Caller of the Pack next turn. And then next turn, Txmmy Time, swing! If nobody has found an answer yet that'll incentivize them after a couple populates. And then! And then. I get everyone to band together and I face the consequences of my hubris. It's my favorite narrative and fun to play out. So for everyone else who has more brain cells than the amount of mana I hold up to cast at instant speed or the number of blockers I deliberately hold up: you're welcome! Edit: I do make sure to have a pre-game discussion about my deck's power level and strategy ahead of time, in case people want a more chill game, or if there are newer players with precons I can swap out to something else or give advice on how to defeat this deck. I want to make sure everyone has fun at the table.

@FelippeARJ 3 месяца назад

Thats a cool topic. Im taking out all those braindead cards from my decks (including Sol Ring). To fit the examples of the video, I have a Emmara deck and I took off all those cards. Doubling Season, Anointed Procession, Parallel Lives, Crateroof. Took off Sol Ring from almost all my decks, Smothering Tithe. And many others. And the reason is: theres nothing different happening. Every one is just looking for EDHrec and putting the Top Cards/High Sinergy Cards. All decks are all the same. Is boring. Super boring

@jthompson2645 3 месяца назад

I’m sorry to be so critical, but you’re entire premise of this video makes no sense. How could a “win more” card, which by the very name means it’s unnecessary, also be an immediate target that if you give it one turn you will lose. That just means it’s a “win” card. Not a “win more” card. If they were already going to win, then destroying the card wouldn’t even help you anyway…. This literally makes no sense, they are just strong cards

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

In my experience, people get unnecessarily worked up when these cards get played. They are powerful, but only powerful WITH other pieces. Hence why it's important to remove them, but they often take time to get going. They telegraph the strategy on the card itself, meaning that most people will see it coming. I think that's why, for a lot of people I have played with at least, they panic when they see it hit the table. It's obviously a problem. It's obvious that "if let unchecked" it will take over the game. But what people often don't realize is that it generally takes time to get there. Moreover, hopefully you, the person who is playing against the card can leverage this to your advantage, both in game, but also in your deck building. I hope this helps clarify. :)

@jthompson2645 3 месяца назад

@@Tempest-Official I agree, but I think it’s a false flag for people to call them “win more” cards. They are simply just great cards. Magic, especially in commander, is all about synergy. So that’s why I think cards like these are amazing for the format, they facilitate fun and synergy. My whole critique (take it with a grain of salt) is that these cards are simply just “win” cards. If it was a “win more” card then removing it wouldn’t even be necessary because the person was going to win anyway. Commander is all about fun, and these cards are immensely fun. If you’ve never had 11 doubling seasons on the battlefield because of replication technique, then you need more fun in your commander decks!! I think these cards are amazing for the format and should see as much play as possible

@jthompson2645 3 месяца назад

And I wouldn’t be able to copy some one else’s nyxbloom ancient if they don’t play it first. I think if everyone tried to balance to a general power level of 6-7, they would see commander is packed with quirky fun waiting to be had. But everyone is so caught up in winning all the dang time

@Badassest 3 месяца назад

People can play whatever they want. But if they play abusively they will face hardship. No card is inherently bad. Only the operator.

@hellNo116 3 месяца назад

I bought my doubling season when it costed the insane price of 15 euros. For me back then it was the biggest purchase. However I play ghave. In ghave this one card is part of half a dozen combos. It was my second edh deck and the first was atraxa, back in 2018. The card did stupid stuff in my deck. Practically that card and ghave formed my taste in the game. It is my favourite way to play. Small value engines which if you fit two specific ones with your commander you go infinite. I just like creating token playing with counters and be rewarded for that. However a year or maybe 2 at this point I run a version of the deck with no token doublers. I even cut doubling season. They weren't doing the thing and they were too expensive. Actually the deck became faster by me cutting them. I actively put doubling season back in to slow the deck down and to have a late game card that will be enough to take over the game by itself with my commander after a turn 7 board wipe. Are they stupidly strong cards? Yeah sure. Insanely so, but doubler are the plague of edh if you ask me and the last 2 standard sets featuring 3 of them says a lot about the state of the game.

@adamdouce353 3 месяца назад

And that is why I don't run token multiplyers in my Myr deck

@majinvegeta6364 3 месяца назад

I think you are conflating an overly broad definition of "win-more" with the more narrow and problematic use of the term. "Win-more" cards that SHOULD be removed from decks are one that require you to already be winning to do anything. Whereas cards like Annointed Procession accrue additional value from your other cards to develop your board state and push you over the top for the win. They make otherwise "fair" cards scale to commander so they can have a more meaningful impact on the game. I recommend studying quadrant theory to gain a stronger perspective on this topic. Also, running functional reprints of these cards (such as Parallel Lives, Doubling Season, etc.) provides a deck with numerous benefits including but not limited to redundancy in case one is removed, increased likelihood of drawing them in your opening hand, stacking their effects so a single token generator can be game ending, and more.

@Tempest-Official 3 месяца назад

What are the cards you register as "win-more?" If not for the cards that do nothing without the input of other cards, I'd be curious what examples you have and how similar or dissimilar they are.

@majinvegeta6364 3 месяца назад

@Tempest-Official first, thank you for getting back to me in a timely fashion 👍 That said, the biggest problem with your definition of "win-more" is that it's so broad that many general use cards and win conditions also fit into said criteria. Cards like Craterhoof Behemoth, Triumph of the Hordes, and Akroma's Will require that you already have an established board state. Torment of Hailfire and Exsanguinate require that you can already produce large amounts of mana. Rishkar's Expertise and Chandra's Ignition require you to already have high power creatures. The difference is that these cards break parity, turning what could be a stalled board state into a win. In contrast, cards that are ONLY effective when you are already winning are more detrimental to a deck. Nomad's Assembly and Second Harvest require that you already have a developed board state, nor do they add value to other cards you play. Stensia Masquerade requires that you are already doing damage directly to your opponent before it benefits you. Ormos needs you to have already emptied your library to do more damage. These cards are only useful in one stage of the game AND do not actually close out said game. As I said in my original comment, studying quadrant theory does a lot to help players properly evaluate what situations a card is or is not useful. I recommend that all players take the time to read up on it.

@majinvegeta6364 3 месяца назад

@Tempest-Official I meant to talk about Mighty Emergence, too. Oh well, I think that one is pretty self-explanatory. 🤷🤷🤷

@LightBender777 3 месяца назад

I dont get what you mean by elitism or how you framed your intro. Sounds like you are talking about "Staples" rather than win more. In which case if anyone is complaining about staples they are (1) either a new/intermediate player still learning the ins and out of the format or (2)they never built anything outside of budget and never actually spend money or open product which are the infamous "game piece army" in which case I just ignore those people there position is irrelevant.