They Just Banned SLEEP MOVES in Gen 9. But Why?

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Pokemon Competitive Singles has been turned on its head with the release of The Indigo Disk DLC.
With the re introduction of Darkrai into the metagame, a discussion was started surrounding the Sleep mechanic, and now Sleep moves have been banned entirely from Smogon's Gen 9 OU format.
This was a decision made by a Council vote rather than a Community suspect vote. In this video I explain my issues with this decision and why the community should've had more input.
Outro Music by Steven Higgbee on RU-vid:
• Verdanturf Town - Poké...
Jim's Cool Mugs:
jimothycool.com/
Gaming on my 2nd channel:
www.youtube.com/@jimothygamin...
Become a Patron if you want.
/ jimothycool
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Some will never figure out how to get Darkrai in Pokemon Scarlet and Pokemon Violet. But famous player Jim Cool is well aware of the Best Darkrai Moveset in Competitive, and even how to Darkrai Shiny Farm. Many aren't and never will be. That's just the unfortunate reality of the world.
Arceus exists.
The below text is very relevant to many people.
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Scream Tail is the Jigglypuff of our wildest dreams. It has been buffed with some higher statistics and the incredible ability, Protosynthesis. Gen 9 Competitive Pokemon wouldn't be the same without this powerful pink blob. He kinda looks like someone I met in one of my game design and development courses.
Gen 9 Pokemon Showdown is one of the greatest online gaming sites in history. From Pikachu and Charizard, to Palafin and Roaring Moon, The new Pokemon games, Pokemon Scarlet & Violet, have introduced a lot of new faces. Will he see it? Can I succeed in one of the best android games of all time? If so, I'm gonna get myself a Walmart bakery Pokemon cake to celebrate.
Gholdengo is a Pokemon made of pure gold. He must have done some online business management courses to accumulate all that wealth. Or perhaps he might want to learn how to make money playing video games on RU-vid. In any case, he's a powerful metagame force, with absolutely no interest in online game development schools.
#competitivepokemon #pokemonshowdown #scarletandviolet #gen9 #theindigodisk

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Опубликовано:

22 янв 2024

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Комментарии : 1,6 тыс.

@jimothycool 6 месяцев назад

Check out Revival Tournaments for Gen 3 OU Tournament Commentary - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-louptxhZ6jM.html Outro Music by Steven Higgbee on RU-vid - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nNOZrlvI2K8.html Jim's Cool Mugs: jimothycool.com/

@MrFabioxz 6 месяцев назад

Maybe a bit off topic. But how about a battle frontier (gen 3) series. Would love to see you going against the thoughest pokemon challange? What do you think about that?

@cellP8 6 месяцев назад

Song at the end please, i know its a variation, pls link me to it.

@MegaMachiOnline 6 месяцев назад

Next is probably Paralysis, Effect Spore & Moody

@fandenovelas777 6 месяцев назад

Wait Protect can fail in gen3 to gen9? (in the first turn)

@gregoriahthanielsonward 6 месяцев назад

Sleep is now banned from real life. Anyone caught committing the heinous act of closing their eyes while laying on a soft rectangle will be fined no less than 599 US dollars

@Beast_the_smash_guy 6 месяцев назад

Good thing I sleep on the floor

@HangryLuna 6 месяцев назад

Good that in my country we don't have US dollars

@rhinoceros2469 6 месяцев назад

This is insane

@justsatan6747 6 месяцев назад

No please I just woke up I didn't know I swear

@othamneil8958 6 месяцев назад

Good thing I sleep standing up with my eyes open on a hard circular object

@shadowsnake94 6 месяцев назад

Can't believe Flinchinator would take such drastic action in response to being told he's "sleeping on the job". Really sad abuse of power!

@Munby1 6 месяцев назад

Thats a high quality comment

@zayway4659 6 месяцев назад

We need a new council bro the current one tries their best but they suck at deciding in the end ESPECIALLY Finch

@octopusoup 6 месяцев назад

@@zayway4659 Clearly we need to construct a council to decide on who goes on the new council to serve as a check to the current council.

@zayway4659 6 месяцев назад

@octopusoup Yeah I would like to be part of something like that but Idk if my choice making would be better or worse cuz like I WOULD look into depth on these things and be like ok the community agrees but on the other hand I disagree with some things that most of the community agrees on. So you are right but if we do we gotta choose carefully as hell cuz we could make things even worse.

@decepticonne 6 месяцев назад

@@octopusoup doing council communism to pokémon showdown

@dislexyc 6 месяцев назад

Imagine if Darkrai win rate goes up because people stop clicking a 60% accurate move

@emilvennerberg4927 6 месяцев назад

Would be hillarious.

@cashcloakburmy 6 месяцев назад

If it can happen to Hypno it can happen to anyone

@sythrus 6 месяцев назад

Honestly what ive been saying

@dislexyc 6 месяцев назад

@@cashcloakburmy Hypno no hypnosis! -Dora the explorer is my favourite council member

@Submissive-Soul 6 месяцев назад

if fairy wasnt a thing it would be a big possibility Darkrai is still powerful its fast as hell and choice specs darkrai hurts bad in any generation

@enricobersani8948 6 месяцев назад

So sad to see komala and musharna being quickbanned by technicality

@oofjeff3735 6 месяцев назад

This is hilarious

@glitch9643 6 месяцев назад

LMFAO FR? LOOOOL

@enoyna1001 6 месяцев назад

@@glitch9643 it's a joke

@ComfyBasilisk 6 месяцев назад

sleep clause has been around for, quite literally, 25 years, being introduced in the japan-only first pokemon stadium game. it was an official rule right up until the official tournaments switched to the VGC series; all official singles tournaments featured sleep clause, and it's implemented in all the console battle games released to support the first four gens. i have no doubt that if official tourneys stayed with singles, sleep clause would still be with us. Absolutely asinine to quote cartridge accuracy as a reason.

@watery2211 6 месяцев назад

Yet when people want to implement freeze clause, everyone states cartridge accuracy as a reason to not implement it.

@vintagestealth8802 6 месяцев назад

Imagine you’re in a professional banning competition and your opponent is the Gen 9 OU Council.

@substitutedoll5224 6 месяцев назад

Nah I’d win

@azuresea7183 6 месяцев назад

@@substitutedoll5224dude your pfp is a counter to sleep.🤔🤨🧐😂🤣

@thekillakrook1764 6 месяцев назад

😂😂😂

@georgemedia1069 6 месяцев назад

Make sure to provide emotional support to your local Brelooms and Amoongusses. They have been spotted working overtime at fast food chains to make a living.

@TheRedGauntlet 6 месяцев назад

Amoonguss still has Doubles. Breloom, my favorite pokemon, on the other hand...

@SeventhGod77 6 месяцев назад

@@TheRedGauntletidk get a better favorite Pokémon. Like beedrill. That way you’ll always be disappointed :(

@mr.sandman7339 6 месяцев назад

@@TheRedGauntlet Look on the bright side. Less 4-moveslot syndrome for Breloom...yeaaahhhh

@danyg0000 5 месяцев назад

@@mr.sandman7339choice band Breloom stocks are up now

@danielendless 6 месяцев назад

This is how you know someone in upper management got absolutely destroyed by an Amoongus

@FlamingZelda3 6 месяцев назад

@badashe1364 6 месяцев назад

I saw the title and immediately went “Oh Amoongus is so dead.”

@ultimaterecoil1136 6 месяцев назад

Ah yes the exact same reason for the kings rock nerf. A mod got outplayed and got salty.

@bluebaron6811 6 месяцев назад

Amoonguss gonna start running bulky offensive sets now 💀

@gregburden416 6 месяцев назад

The person who initially proposed the ban got completely 6-0’d by lead Darkrai and was so salty they went on a tirade in the forums, and that’s where the whole argument came from.

@wingdinggaster2480 6 месяцев назад

we all know finchinator probably got 6-0'd by a sleep team. it's the kyurem situation all over again lmao

@joao20able 6 месяцев назад

clearly he was wiped by a 6 Komala Snore team

@Rarest26 6 месяцев назад

Considering they’re suspecting Kyurem rn, this is a pretty funny comment.

@yosh9192 6 месяцев назад

People need to watch that match, best 1 minute and 15 seconds of OU history

@Rarest26 6 месяцев назад

@@yosh9192 Link?

@MingeBorea 6 месяцев назад

@@Rarest26ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fm-t-TH-GQA.html

@memenoobpoop 6 месяцев назад

Darkrai's ability is gonna go wild

@divideuby2 6 месяцев назад

LMAO

@Uohhhh777 6 месяцев назад

Now he is even broken even great tusk can't save us

@tomsucksatpiano 6 месяцев назад

to be fair Weavile and Keldeo also have wild abilities that definitely come into play despite being great mons

@theapexsurvivor9538 6 месяцев назад

@@tomsucksatpianoKeldeo's ability is at least good at tricking low ladders into thinking there's a stat difference rather than a move difference...

@eliasstenbak5689 6 месяцев назад

Now he is in uu

@victorycry8849 6 месяцев назад

My issue with this isn't the ban itself or with how it was executed, but that the same ban is also now present in UU and all the Gen 9 formats below it. I don't care for OU, but I tried to use Spore Breloom in UU right after this ban happened, and was completely confused when my team wasn't valid. As far as I can understand, part of the reason why they banned sleep in OU was for reasons specific to the mon's in that meta. You have stupid shit like Hypnosis on Darkrai or Valiant, who either land it, set up, and win instantly, or miss and die. Even without them, OU has so many broken mons that you can't even burn one turn of sleep without risking a loss. So banning sleep does make sense for the tier, suspect or not. But the lower tier's don't have all that broken shit. As far as I know, nothing really run's Hypnosis or Sleep Powder because very few things can just win instantly off one sleep turn, making it not worth the miss chance. The Spore mon's, who are all UU and below, are all balanced around the move. Among other issues, Amoonguss is slow and passive, Breloom is frail, Brute Bonnet has shit typing, Toedscruel is stuck with Mycelium Might, and Smeargle is Smeargle. Why should these mons be nerfed for the crimes of a tier they aren't ranked in? Its like the VGC Dark Void situation all over again, which is part of why we're even here in the first place. Gen 9 OU sucks tbh, I couldn't care less if Finchinator alone banned half of what's viable there because he was drunk one morning. But don't fuck with the lower tiers because of how bad OU is. I don't touch OU, so why should what I play be affected by decisions made for it?

@timberlin4075 6 месяцев назад

true

@daniellejackson6543 6 месяцев назад

I personally play ubers, and I can agree that there was no reason to ban sleep for the lower tiers because there aren't any good abusers. It is probably best just to ban darkrai and maybe valiant since they are the main abusers.

@ablazeapple7543 6 месяцев назад

THIS THIS THIS I hate that they did this. It completely invalidates many balanced Pokemon in the lower tiers from being viable. Also I love Breloom

@grrman 6 месяцев назад

It certainly seems like the OU council doesn't give much of a shit about lower tiers. What a surprise. The council really needs to get a wake up call

@antoniolorenzo8621 6 месяцев назад

Huh, that's interesting. Yeah I have no idea why the ban applies to lower tiers as well where fast hypnosis sweepers aren't even a thing. That's really lame. Yawn being banned is also kind dumb since there's clear counterplay to it

@fabiosordo5313 6 месяцев назад

I think we should ban every damage move, i mean it's problematic when my pokemon get damaged so much they faint.

@eeveewithcoffee9554 6 месяцев назад

Falsh swipe should be the only move because it can’t kill anything

@ablazeapple7543 6 месяцев назад

Truly an unbalanced mechanic.

@Lernyd 6 месяцев назад

We need to ban damage rolls too, it's entirely random and uncompetitive for me to only sometimes get a kill.

@denizmergen418 6 месяцев назад

This but unironicly @@Lernyd

@toxicinsectyuri 6 месяцев назад

@@eeveewithcoffee9554 and hold back

@NineConsonants 6 месяцев назад

Even if they wanted to ban sleep, which I can understand since landing a sleep like you mentioned can be high variance game winning, banning Yawn seems crazy to me.

@LegitMLG360noscoper 6 месяцев назад

Yawn is such a cool mind game move, it's pretty retarded that they would ban that.

@swenji9113 6 месяцев назад

I agree, Yawn is so different

@waves5249 6 месяцев назад

Yawn is essentially a better phasing move in the current meta. You either have to switch out leaving the yawning mon alive, or stay in and allow your opponent to sweep or set up. The only mon I know that uses yawn this meta is torkoal, but even in preview you better have something that can instantly kill it because the gouging fire/raging bolt/volcarona/roaring moon you allowed to setup by sleeping most certainly can

@xham-ik9yr 6 месяцев назад

Yawn without sleep clause could be easily broken, shit like skerelidge could spam yawn with hazards Up until you slowly run out of healt, and you wont ohko It if you decide to atack

@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise 6 месяцев назад

The reason yawn was banned with all other sleep moves is because the sleep ban as a whole is supposed to replace the sleep clause mod, because it is completely inconsistent with play on cartridge and smogon wants to emulate cartridge play as much as possible. Yawn with no sleep clause is obvs gigabroken so it gets the axe too.

@esralper00 6 месяцев назад

On an unrelated note, theyve put up gen 3 LC ladder on Showdown. Finally lotad gaming is possible

@andreyhenriquethomas9554 6 месяцев назад

But is it good game?

@RickyRiceB 6 месяцев назад

Would assume lotad could cause of decent typing and having defensive utility in rain with raindish

@Fargodeep 6 месяцев назад

smogon when fundamental game mechanics that have existed for 30 years:

@shitsalad429 6 месяцев назад

>Darkrai is broken because of synergy with sleep move >Darkrai is reduced to a weaker sleep move >Darkrai is tested to see if it’s still broken with lesser sleep move >Darkrai is arguably more broken now >Ban sleep instead of Darkrai Wtf?! The only other mon you could argue is broken is Val, bul Val has been using Hypnosis since day 1 (that was even on a way weaker OU tier), and no one was calling for its ban. People just want an excuse to use Darkrai in OU even if it is at the cost of actual healthy parts of the metagame i.e the mushroom boys

@jamesdinius7769 6 месяцев назад

Agreed. I'd love to see Darkrai in OU personally, since it's no good in Ubers anymore, but it clearly just doesn't work. We tried. It didn't work. Send it back .

@M3rtyville 6 месяцев назад

People are really underestimating Darkrai and Deoxys because of the power creep. Imagine being so broken, that using an inaccurate sleep moves puts you over the edge again.

@DarkAuraLord 6 месяцев назад

I have nothing nice to say about this, so instead I will say that I really like the pokemon "Infernape" in generation 4 OU. He is a really cool mixed sweeper with surprising versatility and coverage. My favorite set would probably have to be the "choice band" set utilizing moves like U-turn, fake out, flare blitz, thunder punch, close combat, and mach punch. Also, he's a cool monkey with a fire crown.

@fredranzalot4849 6 месяцев назад

The LEVELS OF SHADE

@GuanlongX 6 месяцев назад

@gamingmoyai3950 6 месяцев назад

Are those moves all counters to sleep users? If so that’s a brand new level of shade.

@DarkAuraLord 6 месяцев назад

@@gamingmoyai3950 No, I just wanted to leave a positive comment talking about a pokemon from a metagame that I enjoyed a lot. It's a much healthier alternative than voicing an overly emotional and reactive comment on the channel of a content creator that I like and respect, and it still leaves my opinion on this decision fairly clear.

@tristanbowles7258 6 месяцев назад

A fun meme-ish set I found for Infernape was a suicide lead Infernape with Focus Sash, Stealth Rocks, Endeavor, Flare Blitz, and Mach Punch. The main intent is to set up rocks, then to either use his good speed to use Endeavor at 1 Hp after being hit to sash, to then follow up with Mach Punch for classic FEAR Strats, or to just kill himself with a powerful Flare Blitz to safely bring in another Pokemon.

@justinmedeiros7600 6 месяцев назад

While I agree that sleep is pretty busted this gen, I think the fact they didn’t do a public suspect for it is pretty shameful on the councils part. A mechanic this large should have community input period

@ThermalVoid 6 месяцев назад

Peasants don't get to decide. If voting mattered they would not allow peasantry to vote.

@Mingha0 6 месяцев назад

@@ThermalVoidYou are very uninformed but sure, act like that. The real reason there’s no suspect test is that the requirements for voting on those is a basic competency test. This issue is largely a matter of how it relates to past smogon policy, so people would not necessarily be informed even if they made reqs.

@nobody-ho4yp 6 месяцев назад

whats busted abt it? Same as it has been right?

@ptourt 6 месяцев назад

Seems the council has decided that democracy is too slow (and dumb).

@Vassilinia 6 месяцев назад

They're afraid the community would say no like with Terastalization.

@citrus5797 6 месяцев назад

Gen 9 OU try not to be unstable and controversial challenge (level: impossible)

@BiffTheBanana 6 месяцев назад

This is insane, as a Breloom enjoyer I am heartbroken... I am also asking who is running hypnosis on Iron Valiant? Who is whacky enough to do such a thing?

@bencarter8803 6 месяцев назад

Quite a few people, with tera ghost hex specifically, which can break through it's usual counters, which is the main reason why sleep was banned, because mons could cheese through checks.

@noamarie2072 6 месяцев назад

Ya but I will never complain about no more sleep powder

@TheMCcreepermen 6 месяцев назад

I am.

@seanfarrow9085 6 месяцев назад

Me...with blunder policy....if I miss free agility,iron val usually pressures a switch.

@InsertFunnyThingHere 6 месяцев назад

Breloom my man in shambles

@MegaCrazyhand 6 месяцев назад

I feel like this is incredibly ridiculous. Previous generations held suspect tests for Sand Veil and Swagger yet this generation and last generation apparently the player base is too dumb to do so? Sleep was fine in Gen 9 OU (until Darkrai dropped and people suddenly started complaining about it) and I think the only reason to do a council vote as opposed to a suspect test is that they thought Sleep Clause would survive a suspect test. We're in this situation because of the Council's poor decision making, the least they could do is put it to a proper suspect instead of a council vote. Also it just feels so transparently clear here that the purpose of surveys is for the Council's confirmation bias. There have been multiple surveys where Gholdengo scored high and no tiering action has been taken on it but the moment Sleep Clause scores lower than Gliscor did when they suspected Gliscor? Council vote to ban sleep clause. They should give us actual thresholds for their surveys so that the player base can understand why a Mon was suspected as opposed to quick ban'd.

@jamesdinius7769 6 месяцев назад

This is a great point. Many things that get quick bans went through the suspect process in prior gens, and were proven to be universally broken regardless of metagame. Sleep has NEVER been suspected for an out-and-out ban.

@Skullhawk13 6 месяцев назад

You’re looking at it wrong. You’re trying to apply logic and reason to a set of ancient neckbeards who are too shit to adapt and refuse to go with their community. Adapting to variance IS a skill. Fli is just bad at Pokémon.

@kyouhei7731 6 месяцев назад

Dire claw is allowed yet hypnosis is considered too much luck based and uncompetitive Edit: it's just OU it seems Edit 2: Ou and all lower tier. Well, time to use Melloeta and get the 10% sleep chance from Relic song to get that move banned too

@breloommaster12 6 месяцев назад

I mean Sneasler itself is already banned so it was OP regardless lol

@jamesgiles4517 6 месяцев назад

Sneasler is banned

@kyouhei7731 6 месяцев назад

@@jamesgiles4517 doesn't this sleep ban affect all tier?

@wallygropius4451 6 месяцев назад

@@breloommaster12Dire Claw Smeargle

@jamesgiles4517 6 месяцев назад

@@wallygropius4451 Smeargle having it doesn't mean much because, you know, it's Smeargle

@LucianDevine 6 месяцев назад

Because they definitely couldn't just reban Darkrai and admit that unbanning it was a mistake. That's just crazy. Double down and ban the entire sleep mechanic without letting the community vote. That's the ticket!

@FiboSai 6 месяцев назад

The find the inconsitency when it comes to cartridge accuracy to be quite frankly baffling. It feels like that argument is used to support a decision when it is convenient, but ignored instead in any other situation where it could also be applied. For instance, RBY has a freeze clause, which is even more impossible to implement on cartridge than sleep clause. The only option to would be to ban every ice move that could inflict freeze. So instead, RBY on showdown uses a mod to prevent more than one Pokemon from being frozen. But then they also ban Fly, Dig and Counter because they could potentially trigger a game breaking glitch on cartridge. So apparently, it is fine to change the game to preserve Ice Beam and Blizzard, but not to allow people to use Fly. I really don't have any issues with these rules in isolation. Freeze clause is very justified for RBY. But please, stop using cartridge accuracy as an argument for anything if you are willing to add mods (which sleep clause is, in every generation) to make the game more competitive.

@rabbits2345 6 месяцев назад

Couldn't agree more. The idea of maintaining cart accuracy is completely unnecessary and is arbitrarily applied in arguments. Sleep clause is completely unenforceable on cart, but smogon accepts this as "necessary for balance".

@enn1924 6 месяцев назад

@@rabbits2345 the idea behind sleep clause on old gens were an agreement to not click spore twice on cart, but now there are moves that have sleep as a random secondary effect

@Garvant_ 6 месяцев назад

I agree its used when convenient even though trying to maintain cartridge accuracy is a stupid mentality in the first place

@flashdrc 6 месяцев назад

It seems so desperate for them to include this as a reason. Were their other reasons so flimsy that they had to throw cart adherence in there? Not putting it up to suspect vote is pretty sussy too but I’ve stopped trying to decipher their reasoning for going straight to a council vote. I’m sure an admin can spin up some word salad to justify it though!

@mme.veronica735 6 месяцев назад

Isn't sleep clause in one of the stadium games?

@606PikeCountyByGod 6 месяцев назад

Most of the clauses and bans we have in place are basically house rules or gentleman's agreements, but if only one small side of the player base makes the decision without consulting the other, it can't quite be an agreement.

@EddRazzell 6 месяцев назад

I find the ‘on cart enforceability’ argument very funny as someone who moderates an on cart OU league that has had 1500+ matches to date. We have had zero issues ever with enforcing sleep clause across that many matches. It’s clearly stated in our rules that should you sleep two Pokemon concurrently, you forfeit the game. We have had zero complaints in running it this way to date. This decision to ban sleep 100% needed a community vote. All this talk previously about Gen 9 OU being decided more democratically than ever seems to have been damaged by banning a whole status entirely through council vote. The league staff in my cart league are all really unsure whether we should continue to align with OU now that sleep is banned.

@jordansalmon7219 6 месяцев назад

But there was a community survey and discussion open for two weeks

@TetrisPhantom 6 месяцев назад

Have you ever had someone bait forfeits by letting something get slept, then swapping to something else the turn it would have woken up so that the switch-in gets slept, instead?

@EddRazzell 6 месяцев назад

@@TetrisPhantom nope, because the meta on cart is already slightly different just by way of the setup. If being faithful to cart is what mattered, there would be a 20 min timer and animations every turn, but that of course would suck, so Showdown doesn't do it. If you had four turns in a game trying that fishing strat, it's high risk because its a minimum of about 10% of total battle time biggest issue we've had by miles is timer stalling and disincentivising it

@Dankfort 6 месяцев назад

Yeah the rule you described doesn't account for PP stalling or attempting to resleep the same Pokemon as it wakes up. So don't act like you've found some great solution there.

@TetrisPhantom 6 месяцев назад

@@EddRazzell Interesting. I'm not into the competitive scene, but I wonder if this could be used to someone's advantage.

@Bnoopy 6 месяцев назад

bro they be swinging the ban hammer round so much they have me thinking this is smash bros

@GreatShogunWest 6 месяцев назад

All this so Darkrai could play with OU. SMH.

@owenreel3916 6 месяцев назад

Should have been a hypnosis ban rather than an outright sleep ban. This kinda guts a lot of mons.

@xham-ik9yr 6 месяцев назад

A lot? Only amonguss (still viable) and breeloom (was bad in ou anyway) will really be affected

@kyouhei7731 6 месяцев назад

@@xham-ik9yr since Yawn is also banned, Skeledirge, Torkoal and maybe Slowking will be affected

@Thunderlike1 6 месяцев назад

Torkoal is hit hard with this

@Gold_Gamer_100 6 месяцев назад

@@kyouhei7731Torkoal is still gonna kick ass, I can tell you that much. Dirge can hardly fit Yawn in some movesets. Slowking i'm actually not sure. Never seen it or Galarian use it, so no opinion on that

@xham-ik9yr 6 месяцев назад

@@kyouhei7731 Nah torkoal can just use another move and skerelidge didn't really use yawn

@islayprettylies9485 6 месяцев назад

Sleep banned before Gholdengo. Lol, lmao even.

@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise 6 месяцев назад

Gholdengo is far from the biggest villain in current OU. If they banned Sleep in Teal Mask meta then I’d agree with you, but rn Mr S.T Ringcheese is honestly pretty easy to manage. Not bad mind you, but there’s so much stuff that’s strong vs it in current meta (any of the seven darks, exca and tusk, Heatran, the paradox beasts, you feel me) that you’ve probably got one if not more reliable answers to its shenanigans in any given battle just as a byproduct of making a team prepped for the meta. Whether that’s the end state of Gholdengo’s meta warping presence or just metagame optimization, you can decide, personally though I think it’s the latter.

@thebumpercar1344 6 месяцев назад

Right??? "Gholdengo is powerful because hypnosis is unpredictable" WTF.

@IWestrada 6 месяцев назад

I think Gholdengo is a problem so long as the only viable item on defensive teams is HDB unless your name is Gliscor or Clefable. Gen 9 OU feels like Gen 5 OU offensively.

@thebumpercar1344 6 месяцев назад

@@IWestrada : But the reason why defensive teams run HDB is because hazard stacking is so easy to accomplish... because of Gholdengo.

@pmwaffle9348 6 месяцев назад

@@thebumpercar1344no lmao, the ratio of stackers to removers is heavily skewed in favor of stackers and the only pokemon it frees up is defog corv which struggles to get a free defog even vs a non-ghold team. Anyone who says this just hasn't played this meta at a high level.

@purgigantevole 6 месяцев назад

This is truly insane. Amoongus will drop to ZU right now

@user-op5bq1sq6l 6 месяцев назад

Still can use spore in uu tho

@pat1r1ck 6 месяцев назад

Offensive amoonguss with effect spore isn't all that bad. The set I could think of right now would be foul play, clear smog, synthesis/toxic/stun spore, energy ball

@MariokibmibYT 6 месяцев назад

@@user-op5bq1sq6l no it can't it applies to lower tiers

@Fawful-bg5zf 6 месяцев назад

I mean, Regenerator + Bulk still a sick combo

@servine1212 6 месяцев назад

@user-op5bq1sq6l bans apply tier down. So if something is banned in OU it is banned in every tier beneath it.

@christiancinnabars1402 6 месяцев назад

"Muh cartridge play" Remove the toggleable timer, the ability to unselect move choices, the ability to see damage values in percentages, and the ability to quickly create and swap out Pokemon in the teambuilder if you want cartridge play. Hell, just take down the site and force everyone to play on Switch online if you want to enforce cartridge play. I get Showdown is meant to emulate how competitive mons works as close as possible, but _community made_ (emphasis on community) decisions on rulings such as Sleep clause are necessary to have a mid-ground between cartridge accuracy and competitive teambuilding freedom. This is OU that this decision is affecting, not Doubles, Random Battles, AG, Custom Battles, or Pure Hackmons. And if you want to bring up "misuse of the system," waving around the banhammer by yourself because _you_ decide that the _community_ thinks Evasion is similar to Sleep moves is a blatant misuse of a leadership role. Might as well go "We did not have a suspect test for Evasion abilities, therefore we don't have to suspect test banning all inaccurate moves/moves with secondary effect chances because RNG is uncompetitive."

@maxxpower3d6 6 месяцев назад

GHOLDENGO ONLY NO ITEMS FINAL DESTINATION

@bigmike1994 6 месяцев назад

the future the OU council wants

@facelessnameless 6 месяцев назад

Paralysis is the real enemy here. Cuts the most important stat, acts like sleep 1/3 of the time, has no limit clause, is widely available, and only blocked by one type & a few niche ability/support moves

@asierx7047 6 месяцев назад

The fact that everyone considers is a 1/3 when paralysis is really 1/4 goes to show how deeply annoying it is to deal with as a status

@facelessnameless 6 месяцев назад

@@asierx7047 haha I agree. looked into after posting and realized I was wrong but anecdotally 1/3 is true for my experience

@azeria1 6 месяцев назад

No one talked about sleep or hypnosis val before darkrai was introduced thats my issue

@arshianhassan395 6 месяцев назад

And guess who he kills, the number one sleep counter gholdengo. Its so obvious that darkrai is the issue here cuz even if you specifically ban hypnosis darkrai will probably start running dark void instead.

@azeria1 6 месяцев назад

@arshianhassan395 yeah thats the reason all sleep moves are banned and not just hypnosis

@bigkirbyhj666 6 месяцев назад

Just move them to ubrs if one move breaks them so hard.

@ItsYuhBoyyyy 6 месяцев назад

@@azeria1well in that case they should just ban Darkrai🙄

@shadowbonbon3 6 месяцев назад

Put our boy darkrai back in Ubers, why punish tons of Pokémon for one bad apple, it’s been uber for its whole life anyways except for when it destroyed gen 5 and I think it should stay that way for the time being

@chester1882 6 месяцев назад

I think the refusal to 1) not implement complex bans or 2)ban problematic sleep abusing Pokemon and 3)banning some but not all sleep moves - mainly the ones that have counter play (Spore, Sleep powder and Yawn) has led to the counsel voting this way - which is sad considering how powerful sleep can be to halt opponent momentum.

@royalgelly8948 6 месяцев назад

... or completely shut down defensive answers. Sleep was better at shutting down defensive checks via HO then it was guarding against stuff like QD Volc, because wakeups are random

@emersonpage5384 6 месяцев назад

@@viewer6152 There's something that just don't work when insisting on non-complex solutions to complex problems. Sometimes complex problems require complex solutions.

@AceAviations2 6 месяцев назад

@@emersonpage5384 Reminds me of the full Baton Pass ban, which also bans dry-passing, aka using Baton Pass like U-Turn. Hell it even has one advantage over the other pivot moves, it allows for safe escape from Pursuit in metagames where Pursuit is allowed (so for Celebi: Baton Pass > U-Turn). There was absolutely a better way to handle Baton Pass than just outright banning the move, yet instead of trying that and banning it in combination with ways to boost stats or stuff that it can pass (Substitutes, Ingrain, etc,) and allowing for healthy use they just banned the whole move. This is more overreach on their part, going unga-bunga with the ban-hammer instead of taking a nuanced approach. Technically you could pass boosts if your opponent uses something like Swagger, but honestly they deserve any possible sweep if they're using Swagger.

@tobo7580 6 месяцев назад

Avoiding complex bans by claiming straight up bans are 'cleaner', they are just flat-out lying. Their choice will ruin Pokémon who used Sleep as a defensive measure. Especially Pokémon, who had next to no other alleyway open to them under the Smogon ruleset who's reason for existing was clicking reliable sleep moves (Spore isn't random, can be spotted by grass types etc), get screwed over by a community, that is supposedly making up tiers based on usage, yet screw over innocent pokémon who's usage now flatlines.

@raze2012_ 6 месяцев назад

4) not making this ban only apply in OU. All the pokemon in the meta who can abuse it are OU, why are UU and below punished for this?

@Dracon350 6 месяцев назад

thank FUCK that other people actually share this opinion that the ban was poorly done, and is ridiculous in general. it's a blanket ban that affects more than just the egregious offenders. all pokemon who relied on sleep moves effectively just got knee capped, and IT APPLIES TO ALL TIERS. in Finch's own words, "the rest of the tiers will just have to deal with the ramifications". AKA, "I only run OU, I don't care about what this means for the other tiers".

@Emma-rw8yo 6 месяцев назад

it's insane that he said that. i don't understand how you can completely dismiss the metas you don't care about despite your major decisions directly impacting them

@gabrielazolini6069 6 месяцев назад

@@Emma-rw8yo agreed. It's difficult not to call that guy a moron due to that sentence alone

@Skullhawk13 6 месяцев назад

@@gabrielazolini6069oh it’s worse than mere stupidity, it’s active malice. He needs to be quick banned from the site.

@gaberobison680 6 месяцев назад

Finch should have been fired like 5 years ago. He’s an abusive asshat who thinks Smogon should be a plutocratic oligarchy

@Milesprowerthegamer 6 месяцев назад

I haven't watched the video yet but I just read the explanation for using a council vote over a suspect test and I honestly think it's the biggest load of bullshit and abuse of power in Smogon's *history*. This is 100% the sort of thing you suspect test, you do not unilaterally decide to ban something as significant as SLEEP. Especially when, frankly, the uncompetitive/overpowered abusers of sleep are far outnumbered by the Pokemon that are balanced or even bad with sleep. This ban is akin to banning Speed Boost just so Blaziken could be allowed (in earlier gens, when Speed Boost Blaziken was broken) at the expense of other Speed Boost users. Just ban Darkrai, maybe Iron Valiant too. Darkrai was never meant to be in OU and they're trying so hard to keep it here for some reason, when OU does not need another Pokemon that serves a role as an offensive sweeper.

@azurai3934 6 месяцев назад

Or ban Hypnosis specifically.

@Milesprowerthegamer 6 месяцев назад

@@azurai3934 Yeah, that's also a possibility although Darkrai might still be able to achieve the same stuff by just switching to Dark Void. And Valiant was already on the radar for basically the entire generation with or without people running Hypnosis on it.

@azurai3934 6 месяцев назад

@@Milesprowerthegamer Yeah, there were like several easy solutions to go for but instead Finch went right for the worst possible solution.

@saltedsins 6 месяцев назад

Seriously, the smogon council has pivoted so hard against stall that I wouldn't be surprised if they ban anything with sturdy for getting in the way of their precious perfect baby hyper-offense cores. The metagame should not be as braindead as 'click move for big number.'

@theapexsurvivor9538 6 месяцев назад

Worst is that they did it to tiers like UU too, so even mons that are barely decent even with sleep just got kicked into tier freefall.

@TheStrongestBaka 6 месяцев назад

I only get gen 9 OU news through the prism of this YT channel and now i'm completely convinced that rejecting current gen and embracing gen 3 OU as my lord and savior is the way to go. This is insane.

@PapasConQu3so 6 месяцев назад

Im not here to argue, im just shocked When i finished a team with amoongus and read "Sleep Clause" i was kinda stun locked looking at my screen for a few moments

@shadowbonbon3 6 месяцев назад

Same, I just came back to this meta and wanted to make a team with hippo, and seeing yawn banned was weird af to me, I legit thought a mistake happened with my game

@iantaakalla8180 6 месяцев назад

Even as a person who does not play Smogon singles, I am aware that Hippowdon using Yawn is one of its only counterplay to sweepers or immediately powerful attackers.

@plhbuschannel 6 месяцев назад

3:40 that is honestly what I felt like. yes i felt sleep is broken, but I still felt like it is a big enough change to warrent a suspect test.

@tomsimpkins1211 6 месяцев назад

This same logic applies to anything with variance then. Let's kill focus blast, landing it can swing an entire match.

@malachitep4276 6 месяцев назад

Ban any move that has a chance to crit Or miss for that matter! Gotta keep this game completely predictable!

@sephirotten2413 6 месяцев назад

@@malachitep4276 yep lets ban zap cannon folks

@kaotic300 6 месяцев назад

and moves that can cause status conditions, 1 thunderbolt paralysis or an icebeam freeze can decide a battle

@timberlin4075 6 месяцев назад

after hearing this news, i loaded up doubles and spored 4/6 of my opponent’s team

@elbananitolokito 6 месяцев назад

If you can't save the metagane, no one can

@joao20able 6 месяцев назад

not the hero we needed, but the hero we deserved

@dakoriolf 6 месяцев назад

Obviously instead of banning sleep, pincurchin should be made mandatory on all OU teams to provide electric terrain

@divinekitty1831 6 месяцев назад

I, for one, welcome our Sea Urchin overlords

@gucciferart 6 месяцев назад

“The previous generations had tapu lele and koko” Just use Pinurchin bro 😎

@silversteel8160 6 месяцев назад

Perfect video to watch as I try to sleep

@shanegale6143 6 месяцев назад

I live in jim's city and based on his daily upload times its probably the last he does before he goes to sleep too LOL (assuming he has a normal person's sleeping schedule )

@VivianKurayami 6 месяцев назад

Imagine being Darkrai. You're banned for 16 years. Your signature move gets an accuracy nerf because of Smeargle using it _and_ they make it so it doesn't work unless you do it. You finally get unbanned because of how much power creep there is and then sleep gets banned because of the variance of sleep moves and their inaccuracy. Unless the opponent uses Rest Darkrai pretty much has no ability.

@HenrythePaleoGuy 6 месяцев назад

25 years?

@VivianKurayami 6 месяцев назад

@@HenrythePaleoGuy Whoops thought I hit the 1 key but it's also 16 not 15.

@lucaum4 4 месяца назад

He could have truant, it could be worse

@Pvariety441 6 месяцев назад

Changes like this make me glad I only play gen 3 on showdown. The powercreep is crazy in gen 9

@rjagad 6 месяцев назад

Gen 3 is fun yes.

@letroll4479 6 месяцев назад

i think gens 3 till 5 have the best metas and were the best games overall . gen 3 OU is a goated format

@gligarguy4010 6 месяцев назад

@@letroll4479 Certified Pokeboomer moment

@ThermalVoid 6 месяцев назад

@@gligarguy4010 Certified Pokézoomer moment.

@user-sw8gb3fz8x 6 месяцев назад

@@letroll4479 gen 3 is goated but gen 5 is one of the worst meta games of all time. It took 50000 bans to make it playable and even after over 10 years it's still a broken generation. Gens 2 and 3 are where the good meta games are. Gen 2 cause it's very skilled based, requires a lot of thought, patience and prediction (it's basically like chess) and gen 3 cause it's less stressful than 2, it offers some more options and easier access to setup moves but without going overboard. Ever since gen 4 the competitive scene is going downhill. Unless you like abusing insanely broken stuff in which case gen 1 OU is by far the most fun

@spamgoose6447 6 месяцев назад

"Sleep cause can't be replicated in cartridge" *stares at gen 2 freeze clause*

@M3rtyville 6 месяцев назад

Stadium games had those hardcoded I think. Wish Game Freak took an example from these classic games.

@spamgoose6447 6 месяцев назад

@M3rtyville I know FSG talked about the gen 2 Jynx Era and said freeze clause broke game mechanics, I dont think he would've have brought that up otherwise since he uses stadium and colosseum as his video portion on older titles

@sorenandreas2k 6 месяцев назад

i also disagree with the reasoning finch and the council gave for the ban, despite the only problematic abusers of sleep being darkrai and iron valiant. maybe darkrai and valiant themselves should've been banned not for being overcentralizing, but because their combination of access to hypnosis and their stats/movepools giving them game ending power if they land said sleep is uncompetitive, even if inconsistent. frankly, i believe the reasons the council gave may have had some subconcious bias towards wanting to keep darkrai and valiant in the tier. that being said, sleep clause is also a silly solution to the unbalanced nature of sleep without it, even if there are users of sleep that are healthy and unproblematic like breloom and amoonguss. it's a very difficult topic, really.

@plhbuschannel 6 месяцев назад

agreed that it is difficult to truly answer

@kaimanthelizardwizard1248 6 месяцев назад

So suspect test Darkrai and Iron Valiant, right?

@sorenandreas2k 6 месяцев назад

@@kaimanthelizardwizard1248 yeah, either suspect darkrai and valiant or suspect sleep clause itself, the council never should've made this decision without community input.

@indiradevi8136 6 месяцев назад

The council have been trying to erase sleep clause for a while. This topic came up in gen 8 too. This time they had survey results to back up. They were just waiting for an opportunity to get rid of sleep clause

@theapexsurvivor9538 6 месяцев назад

I mean, sleep clause has been a thing in official tournaments and games (stadium for example), so it makes some sense to implement for showdown.

@mainlyjm 6 месяцев назад

My biggest criticism to smogon is how unbelievably inflexible they are. They are for some reason so incredibly scared or too lazy for 'complex' bans. Yes, complex in quotations because the only reason it's complex is because smogon makes it so. When Dracovish was around, there was 1 undeniable factor which made it broken: it's move Fishious Rend. When I asked why smogon is unwilling to ban Fishious Rend on Dracovish specifically the only argument I got in response was: 'That's a can of worms we don't want to open. When does it end?? If we ban 8 different moves on Lugia then it could also be used in OU?? So why would we ban 1 move on Dracovish??' which in my opinion is just absolutely fucking ridiculous. There is literally no one in the world who'd argue for any of that bullshit, and if smogon is too lazy to do it they can just ask the community: Should Fishious Rend be allowed on Dracovish, just as they could have asked Should Sleep be allowed on Valiant and Darkrai? This concept is apparently such a taboo or akin to the cold war to smogon because if we allow one thing then for some reason they think we should also allow the banning of 15 different moves on arceus so that it can be used in OU. Absolute most idiotic argument I've ever heard and can't believe people defend it. The only other argument there was is that it is beginner unfriendly, which I think is a better argument to make than the previous one, but still very weak. Because if someone wants to use Fishious rend on dracovish for example, and it's banned, the only thing they have to do is when you check if your team is legal, they can literally let it say: "The move Fishious Rend is not legal on Dracovish." end of the story.

@Cleffr 6 месяцев назад

Smogon's policy is that if two or more Pokémon are broken with a move, the move itself gets banned. But if it's only a single Pokémon, the Pokémon itself would get banned. I'll list some examples below. Shed Tail: broken on Cyclizar, and when it was banned Orthworm took its place and did the exact same thing, arguably better because it could make slow substitutes and come in on physical attackers and Shed Tail for free into a powerful attacker. So Shed Tail got banned and Cyclizar was unbanned. Last Respects: Houndstone was initially banned for it, and when Basculegion came around, it was definitely still going to be broken with it. There's an argument that maybe Basculin-White would have been balanced with it, but there's no point condemning 3 Pokémon to Ubers just for Basculin-W. Last Respects banned. Rage Fist: Rage Fist is what made Annihilape broken, while Primeape is perfectly fine with it. Thus Annihilape got banned instead of Rage Fist. Fishious Rend: Dracovish was broken with it, but Arctovish was not. Same case as Rage Fist TLDR Smogon tries to follow the cartridge as much as possible. They can't just nerf a *single* Pokémon to make it balanced in OU, like removing a move from it, but if multiple Pokémon prove that it's a problem, then of course it would have to be banned. It's nothing different from banning Veil abilities or OHKO moves. Would Mewtwo be balanced in OU if it had to be level 80 or always hold a toxic orb?

@mainlyjm 6 месяцев назад

@@CleffrI know the rules that smogon implement, what I'm saying is is that I don't agree. And there it is: The argument which is nonsensical; "Would mewtwo be allowed if its level 80 or if it's holding Toxic Orb?" This has nothing to do with the state of OU, and is also completely different to what actually the problem is. (And also what I meant by that smogon MAKES it complex) I really don't understand how it's such a problem to ban Fishious Rend on Dracovish, or another example, Speed Boost on blaziken, when it was still too powerful. Just because its always been that way, that smogon wants to stay close to the cartridge doesn't mean it's logical to keep following it even when the alternative is better. What would be better for the overall metagame? Banning sleep in general so that every tier faces the consequences of OU, mons such as Breloom and Amoongus which get completely shafted by this, or specially ban sleep on Darkrai and valiant, which we ALL know is the actual problem.

@LesbianWitchAcademia 6 месяцев назад

The reason why Fishious Rend wasn't banned was because there isn't just one Pokemon with the move. Arctovish also has Fishious Rend, but is terrible even with it. Fishious Rend requires you have a fair chance of out speeding/forcing your opponent to switch in order to be powerful, and only Dracovish has that ability while maintaining the power of Strong Jaw, thus Dracovish, itself, is broken.

@Cleffr 6 месяцев назад

@@mainlyjm I don't agree with the lower tiers getting sleep ban, but the way that sleep was used in OU was plain uncompetitive. It's basically the same as an OHKO move but with 60% chance and leaves slightly more counterplay. The entire point of the Pokémon who use Hypnosis was to fish for sleeps and set up freely. Lead Spore Red Card Amoonguss left no counterplay and required that you sack a Pokémon to sleep on the first turn, and without any Grass Steel types in the game Amoonguss could always hit any grass types coming in with sludge bomb. Chlorophyll + Sleep Powder sweepers like Hisuian Lilligant and Venusaur have always been a thing and are also uncompetitive. Hypnosis is basically the same too. I disagree with the Yawn ban tho. Otherwise I think the sleep ban is fine. It makes OU less reliant on pure dumb luck, fishing for sleeps. I do think they should unban sleep for UU and below tho.

@mr.potato 6 месяцев назад

@@mainlyjmI think your viewpoint is that players should have the right to use any pokemon they want in OU as long as Smogon changes what makes them broken. We can remove moves and abilities from any pokemon, but that in turn removes the identity of that Pokemon and brings into question why you still want to use it in the first place. Dracovish without Fishious Rend removes the defining aspect of what makes Dracovish what it is, so at that point why not ban Dracovish? If the problem is the move, we need evidence so that disadvantaged pokemon like Arctovish don't get screwed over because Dracovish was too strong. Banning one move on one Pokemon is also subjective: do we only ban broken signature moves, or do we ban a broken regular move? If Shaymin-Sky was mainly Ubers because of Air Slash flinches, should we ban Air Slash on Shaymin-Sky? This goes for every Pokemon, and focusing specifically on signature moves is a flaw in the logic, especially when those moves are shared with other pokemon

@Blazin_Tundra 6 месяцев назад

I don't get banning lovely kiss/sing. The pokes that use those moves need all the help they can get.

@Gold_Gamer_100 6 месяцев назад

Believe me, if we just banned Hypnosis, Darkrai would switch to Dark Void and do the same thing with less consistency. Better to bite the bullet now then deal with future suspect tests

@flashdrc 6 месяцев назад

Smogon’s goal, on its face, isn’t to make bad Pokémon slightly usable, it’s to foster a competitive metagame. Banning sleep moves altogether is easier than arbitrarily allowing “bad” sleep moves based off their accuracy.

@Blazin_Tundra 6 месяцев назад

@flashdrc sleep hasn't relevant in years in either smogon/vgc so idk what you're talking about

@tobo7580 6 месяцев назад

@@flashdrcIn that case we might aswell ban Thunder and Blizzard. Those non 100% accuracy moves shouldn't be legal, just because they have an arbitrary chance to inflict more damage in a tradeoff for lower accuracy. That's super uncompetitive.

@lucasgreer1736 6 месяцев назад

@@tobo7580 a 55% chance to force the opponent to either switch or be useless for a few turns is much more impactful and less consistent than a 70% chance to do slightly more damage than thunderbolt or ice beam, especially since they're usually run with weather iirc

@etymonlegomenon931 6 месяцев назад

Jimothy Hot has invaded my personal brand. I heard impersonation coming from the ladder and opened it to discover the fraud had become enormous. I turned to run but could not outpace the gossip-boosted speculation. I was unable to cry "This is insane!" due to a copyright dispute before the Smog-boosted quickban killed me instantly.

@lixyo4320 6 месяцев назад

A highly funny & creative comment with only 10 likes, this is insane

@bastion3657 6 месяцев назад

The real problem is, this ban cascades down to the lower tiers, thus making some pokemon that had niches due to its sleep capabilities are no longer viable, and will be pushed down into lower tiers, where they may become dominant or put in BL situations

@Stray_x 6 месяцев назад

They need to ban Paralysis next. My team doesn't appreciate the speed drop. Oh, and burn too. And Toxic while we're at it. In fact, why don't we just ban all status moves?

@wfjhDUI 6 месяцев назад

1:04 lol @ the cameo of our hometown hero, the people's champion, MudkipNerd, once again defending us from the oppressive tyrant Finchinator

@somedude3820 6 месяцев назад

The council this Gen has made many controversial quick bans while ignoring the community begging for mons like Gholdengho to be tested which has resulted in the worst OU experience in history. There should be a way for the community to call votes to remove council members tbh. The whole point of the council is to speed up votes on things the community will obviously vote on and not much else, yet here they are saying the community voting on something will be against policy.

@CRPit 6 месяцев назад

I kinda wanna see what would’ve happened if they banned booster energy, since it really is the culprit for the strongest paradox mons

@glitch9643 6 месяцев назад

Highly unlikely tbh. If they do so, then they should've just banned Terastal itself.

@quijassajiuq900 6 месяцев назад

My only complaint is that sleep was also banned from lower tiers based solely off of what was happening in OU. I’m not a fan of that policy one bit.

@jodexstar2238 6 месяцев назад

Ladies and gents? Pull out your grasswhistles

@Runningwritingreading 6 месяцев назад

Finch's tyranny is insan- oh wait be civil

@joshalbert5904 6 месяцев назад

I feel like you should have talked about how sleep is banned in all tiers below OU too

@wahbucket501 6 месяцев назад

I really don’t agree with this one I think action should’ve been taken on individual moves like hypnosis and sleep powder rather than all sleep

@ParasocialCatgirl 6 месяцев назад

Well, whilst it sounds like an interesting approach, the issue is that there isn't really any precedent for that approach. Smogon generally prefers simple bans - banning the lowest common denominator of the problem (so it's easier for people to know what is and isn't banned) rather than go into specifics. If sleep is deemed problematic enough to be banworthy - simply saying 'sleep is banned, you cannot use moves that put enemy Pokémon to sleep' is the simplest way of doing it. You know that your team cannot include any of the moves that put your opponent to sleep, but you know that you won't encounter any moves that put your Pokémon to sleep. But, if, say, 'hypnosis and sleep powder are banned but the other sleep moves are legal' - well, that complicates matters. You need to make sure your sets do not involve those specific moves, but at the same time, your sets can still include sleep moves, and some of the Pokémon with the permitted sleep moves will be likely to increase in usage too in order to fill that niche and things get complicated for everyone pretty quickly. Whilst 'sleep moves are banned' is easier to communicate, easier to take into consideration when team building, and generally saves everyone a lot of time and energy to understand.

@theschnozzler 6 месяцев назад

@@ParasocialCatgirlthis is a long standing issue of smogon refusing to do complex bans. Ever since the baton pass limitations and Aldaron's proposal, which did not work, they remained adamant to not do complex bans anymore. I find that to be a failure of the council and is going directly against the goal to make the game more competitive.

@Lh0000 6 месяцев назад

@@theschnozzlergot it in one, and honestly this barely even qualifies for a complex ban, it’s 1 pokemon being banned and another having the oh so complex ban of “don’t run hypnosis on it”

@iantaakalla8180 6 месяцев назад

The problematic elements are Darkrai and Iron Valiant. Wouldn’t “simple bans” require that they are suspected since they are the overpowered sleep users in OU? Amoonguss isn’t a problem with Spore. Breloom isn’t a problem with Spore. Those are the only two Pokémon that have sleeping moves viable in OU in Gen 9. It is funny how they mention simple bans, and then they actively complicate everything.

@abyssreborn4213 6 месяцев назад

There doesn't need to be precedent. It would be the most effective way, so that's what they should do. The fact that there's no precendent just means they've been doing things ineffectively up until this point.@@ParasocialCatgirl

@joaogomes9405 6 месяцев назад

So instead of banning darkrai and iron valiant or just hypnosis from OU for how they abuse sleep, they decided to ban sleep for everyone including the tiers below OU and all the other pokemon who use sing, lovely kiss, hypnosis and sleep power without being overpowered meta ruiners and who need all the help they can get already. Smogon is very smart.

@AI-DreigonGPT 6 месяцев назад

So that why i saw Darkrai in a Cat Maid suit serving my coffee 😮

@walugusgrudenburg3068 6 месяцев назад

The fact that the OU council can apply this to every other tier is autocratic as hell and incredibly disappointing. So many perfectly acceptable mons in lower tiers are completely gutted by this, all to stop like two to six OU mons in particular. And not even with a community vote. It's a disgusting abuse of power.

@abhishekganapathy775 6 месяцев назад

This is why I prefer playing on gen3, gen6 and gen7 OUs still. Gen9's powercreep and constant changes, especially with mechanics such as sleep make it quite hard to keep constantly adapting to. You could go on a week of holiday and then return to the meta with some new change that you did not expect

@aggapuffin 6 месяцев назад

Something that also bugs me is that Sleep had enough votes at 3.7/5 to get quickbanned, but Kyurem, which has a 3.6/5 is getting a suspect test. I don't know why 3.7/5 is when it suddenly gets too broken and it just feels dumb to me.

@owenreel3916 6 месяцев назад

Banning sleep before Tera is wild to me.

@katys.7767 6 месяцев назад

Banning sleep before Kingambit, Volcarona, Gliscor, Tera Blast and Booster Energy is insane to me. Now they suspect Kyurem but the most problematic Pokemon isnt Kyurem for now. It is either Volc or Kinga.

@ungratefulingrate1268 6 месяцев назад

@@katys.7767truth

@zero1343 6 месяцев назад

@@katys.7767they did a survey to see what the community saw as most problematic and Kyurem scored higher than all of those. So it's not a surprise it's the one being suspect tested.

@Freefidy 6 месяцев назад

Honestly I always saw sleep as a bit of an issue, the inherent RNG of wakeup is pretty anti-competitive. Outside gen 5 it was always held back by the users, Breloom being the only higher tiered user for many gens. Nowadays I think a big issue is once again "muh powercreep", one turn or one additional turn of sleep can be game deciding with all the insane base stats as well as more powerful setup moves. Personally it was always an annoyance that I put up with, seems like an overly powerful status that they overlooked when implementing counterplay in these recent gens. Now lets watch gamefreak add a freeze move next gen/dlc. Edit: Guess I have to clarify, Its often impossible to have multiple answers to many top threats on the same team currently. Sleep hitting any of these answers to major threats allows them to immediately win.

@windwaker0rules 6 месяцев назад

maybe don't unban darkrai?

@why3994 6 месяцев назад

The only powercreep is iron valiant hypnosis, (and darkrai got unbanned so you could say thats powercreep too) they should've just banned hypnosis

@Freefidy 6 месяцев назад

theres this crazy mechanic called swapping@@why3994

@johnblunt6693 6 месяцев назад

Exactly, once a mon is put to sleep it's effectively a KO

@unkarsthug4429 6 месяцев назад

I mean, hopefully we get freeze switched to frostbite, and then get a will o wisp type move for it.

@wcvince 6 месяцев назад

I can’t believe sleep got banned before Gholdengo and terastallization

@CoralReaper707 6 месяцев назад

How else is every pokemon supposed to get some well needed sleep? They must be tired...

@iantaakalla8180 6 месяцев назад

The Pokémon go to Pokemon Sleep and get their sleep there.

@wadosk_NB 6 месяцев назад

Breloom Bros in shambles. This is insane.

@InsertFunnyThingHere 6 месяцев назад

It's over breloom bros. The metagame has fallen, billions must be banned

@0riginzer036 6 месяцев назад

Paralysis is next. A Pokemon maybe can't make a move each turn, that's just like sleep! PLUS a speed drop?!? Naw, naw. Why didn't we ban this sooner??

@joao20able 6 месяцев назад

Don't say shit like that even in jest cuz Finch is gonna be 6-0'd by some shitlord in ladder using para flinch jirachi and next day he'll ban Para as a whole

@darkdestroyerza2381 6 месяцев назад

I agree with blunders sentiment from a week or two ago where he said we should ban hypnosis, not sleep as a whole because the worst sleep abusers are pokemon woth hypnosis such as darkrai, iron valiant, and alolan ninetales who already bring alor of other utility to your team as opposed to amoongus or breloom.

@Jfrost9101 6 месяцев назад

I feel like banning Hypnosis *and Dark Void* was probably the way to go, there's specific counterplay to moves like Yawn, Spore, Sleep Powder, etc. If they banned only Hypnosis, Darkrai'd probably just grab Dark Void and take its chances with a coin flip instead of a slightly rigged coin flip Unlike Gen 5 where I totally get it, Gen 9 Sleep Ban just feels like a shortsighted excuse to get Sleep banned for good rather than trying to keep it in check by addressing the problem move(s).

@ursamajor4684 6 месяцев назад

@@Jfrost9101 or, just ban darkrai. it's been banned for 4 generations. it doesn't need to be OU

@iantaakalla8180 6 месяцев назад

Also, there is a good reason Darkrai sucks. It may have the stats of a legendary, but it was specifically made to sleep opposing Pokemon and take advantage of that. Since the Dark Void nerf, it cannot do that, and all its flaws are unbearably bad in Ubers. But it still is well above OU. There is no reason to consider it OU now. It is not like it was a Zamazenta.

@FlamingZelda3 6 месяцев назад

Competitive pokemon has turned into an oligarchy and I'm just here to watch

@connormcnulty6377 6 месяцев назад

This really should’ve been a vote.

@TheLordOfTheSporks 6 месяцев назад

This is a certified Smogon Moment

@yosh9192 6 месяцев назад

OU council moment* The prime example of a Smogon Moment is “Unfortunate doesn’t begin to describe my series”

@HESOMADBRO 6 месяцев назад

Not only is Finchinator acting entirely of his own accord here, clearly against the will of the community, but also bans/restrictions are being dished out like candy currently. Right now the game is less fun to play for my friends and me than it was at the release of S/V OU. In a game like pokemon, once you pass a certain threshold with restrictions, it causes a cascading effect, forcing you to nerf everything that sticks slightly out of line. Pokemon is better handled with a balancing following the "everything is broken" approach, rather than the "everything is in line" approach and the OU council couldnt be further out of touch with the players here.

@galicianon7480 6 месяцев назад

At this rate the council might ban people from using Pokemon

@HoChiPro 6 месяцев назад

Gen 9 was never well balanced, I’m honestly at the point where SV gets more disappointing each day. It was created as a singles game with almost 0 double battles and many of the new mechanics and Pokemon are built for doubles specifically, which is weird because the base game is all singles. If only they removed Dark Void from Smeargle and not nerf it. Then Iron Valiant would simply be suspect.

@lacuevadelosrpg4070 6 месяцев назад

End game of S/V is doubles. The first part is singles because is noob friendly

@bigkirbyhj666 6 месяцев назад

They did remove dark void from smergle though.

@goGothitaLOL 6 месяцев назад

@@bigkirbyhj666yes they did They made it so that it can’t use it anymore

@pksprite6401 6 месяцев назад

Yea gen 9 is a disaster

@iantaakalla8180 6 месяцев назад

If it is the job of GameFreak to make doubles the only format, they did it. I do not see a future for Smogon beyond this. I bet GameFreak are getting paid even more now for successfully shilling the correct competitive format.

@LiveTwinReaction 6 месяцев назад

Ban paralyze next, after all it's a random 25% chance to lose your turn! That seems uncompetitive to me.

@senabecool7232 6 месяцев назад

Breloom still has Technician set at least

@yosh9192 6 месяцев назад

And Poison Heal sets (or the Deplorables as I call them)

@senabecool7232 6 месяцев назад

@@yosh9192 what, why call them that?

@Epsilonsama 6 месяцев назад

The Smogon Politburo is out of hand. Any time one of the commissars get outplayed they get mad, call it uncompetitive and ban it.

@elilopez6260 6 месяцев назад

Sleep moves are now banned from gen 9 folks.

@Jake-kr8sc 6 месяцев назад

And I honestly did not expect this.

@mrschrubelhupfyay6397 6 месяцев назад

I know there was discussion about it recently I gave my opinions about this in a previous video but

@ZeBanded 6 месяцев назад

I'm a little surprised this one went through this is a very big deal

@trubica 6 месяцев назад

Sleep is a fundamental status in Pokémon, it's existed since gen 1.

@lio8066 6 месяцев назад

It does have the precedent of being banned in gen 5 OU but I think that‘s a bit different because of the way sleep works in that generation

@MrDUFO11 6 месяцев назад

I just don't understand why Amoonguss and Breloom have to be deleted from the game because other pokemons that serve completely different roles are too strong. I really hope that they revert this ban so our boys can come back home.

@sagetmaster4 6 месяцев назад

Jimothy Cool could never put me to sleep

@someguy1ification 6 месяцев назад

"there's no need to attack people" ... *quickly hides pillows behind back*

@grrman 6 месяцев назад

I think the main issue in all fairness is that Gen OU is simply overcrowded and has too many mons in it that aren't really balanced with each other. It would likely be healthy for the meta as a whole if they officially adopted that UbersBL tier (or was it called UbersUU?) and do a major clean up of the upper tiers, i.e. OU and up (maybe include UU, but that meta seems pretty stable). Now this is just observation from an outsider who hasn't played gen 9, but it seems like the fundamental issue is just the sheer number of overly powerful pokemon available nowadays require new tiers to balance around the ever growing power creep. We have over 1000 of those suckers and you'll need more tiers to accommodate them all. OU used to be a pretty balanced metagame in past gens, so banning a fundamental mechanic seems like a massive abuse of power, especially when you consider that the ban is global affecting the lower tiers also, which were balanced already. I'm not gonna be silly and say the Smogon Council is a bunch of morons, since usually things they ban make sense within the context of each generation, but this time it seems ridiculous. Rather than addressing the utterly meta warping nature of all the new mons, abilities, moves and movepools, they go for the outrageous idea of banning sleep. Gen 9 OU has been broken since its inception from what I've seen, and most fixes appeared to be nothing more than bandaids, which is slowly causing the thing to fester into something disgusting. But again, this is just the thoughts of an external observer.

@Lamentationsofapoory 6 месяцев назад

I really wish Smogon would just take the liberty for once and change a mechanic they find problematic on the simulator. Personally, I think if they were to change it, I think sleep should always be a static two turns, like rest. Make every sleep like rest, you basically sacrifice one of your own turns to either heal yourself, or take two turns away from the opponent. That way there's always a risk versus a reward. If a fast pokémon sleeps your pokémon, you instantly burn one sleep turn so they get exactly one turn for positioning or to get one hit off. Or if a slow pokémon put you to sleep, then they have to basically use one of their own turns, which could be costly, to stop two of yours. I think it actually could be considered pretty tactically useful. And much easier to plan around

@AngryAyrab 6 месяцев назад

Sleep banned before Tera is crazy

@JoeNeutrino 6 месяцев назад

I've seen national economies easier to balance than gen 9 OU.

@zayneharring9570 6 месяцев назад

"Hey, we decided to ban yet another mechanic because we don't like fun."

@Gabriel-rj9gn 6 месяцев назад

I’m ngl I think it’s been bad call after bad call in this new gen. Feels like ppl care less about the game and more about convenience or the immediate meta. Banning houndstone but not last respects comes to mind as another example of this

@zdelrod829 5 месяцев назад

There's a really niche ability called Sweet Veil. I heard it prevents sleep AND can be found on one of the fastest Sticky Web setters.

@lietz13 6 месяцев назад

this has been coming for years. pokemon stadium apparently had a sleep clause, so since the 90s sleep has been a problematic game mechanic that has required additional rules to manage

@potofdesire2476 6 месяцев назад

Can we ban critical hits as well?

@user-vu3uv5se3x 6 месяцев назад

I feel like the full on sleep ban, especially without community input is really just not the move to make. the thing is is that smogon tiering policy's definition of uncompetitive is anything that makes it so that it is not skill that define who wins and loses, it is the presence/lack thereof of whatever pokemon, mechanic, move, or random chance that decides the victor, which is why so much RNG stuff is banned, and why evasion clause and the likes exist. this, of course, holds true to darkrai and iron valiant in gen 9, because if they hit their 60% accurate move they get to set up and win, which is heavily RNG and should be banned. the same goes for sleep powder, along with any other below 90% accuracy sleep move that is on a fast pokemon, but spore and yawn??? if spore gets put on a fast pokemon thats a combination inherent to that pokemon, and we can ban that pokemon, but current spore users aren't fast? its just taking away options for no reason.

@totalphantasm 6 месяцев назад

Gen9 council will ban having 4 move slots before they’ll ban Tera

@larseunic 6 месяцев назад

It's crazy how tera isn't banned yet

@xham-ik9yr 6 месяцев назад

I mean they tried to restric It and people voted no action for no reason, they Will never van in (tera ban support Is under 30%) and at this point I don't think It's going to be restricted

@totalphantasm 6 месяцев назад

@@xham-ik9yr do you hear the crazy irony in your own statement that they won’t ban because they voted on it (2 years ago) and yet sleeo was banned without vote?

@Gold_Gamer_100 6 месяцев назад

Tera's a lose/lose situation, period. If you don't do anything, the ban Tera camp gets upset. Ban it, the majority of the playerbase riots, or just quits outright. Restrict it, the ban Tera camp will usually say it isn't enough and they shouls ban it completely, while the pro Tera camp is annoyed that it was restricted at all. No matter what decision they make, Tera's gonna make people mad, so not doing anything is their choice. I don't agree with it, but what else can they do?

@totalphantasm 6 месяцев назад

@@Gold_Gamer_100 clearly this is not an OU council concern given recent events referenced in the video