This Guild Changed MMO Design Forever 

I remember when elitist jerk was hired on that I was like, oh good finically some developers that actually know how the damage mechanics work

If you look at pre-WoW MMOs like, say, Ultima Online or Star Wars: Galaxies, they were all about creating a sandbox for players to play in. Do what you want, build houses, gather, craft. Make your own stories. This is why vanilla WoW was the exact same thing: an open world set in the Warcraft universe for people to play in. It wasn't until later on in WoW's life (like, was pointed out here, Burning Crusade and later) that the focus centered around end game. When it took you 4-5 months to reach endgame as a casual player in vanilla, that was fine because you had plenty of content to explore. Leveling up as a human in the Eastern Kingdoms gave you a different experience from leveling a night elf in Kalimdor. Or a Forsaken. Or an orc. There was plenty to do and experience. But that shifted as expansions released smaller and smaller areas to explore and the focus started to shift to racing through it as quickly as possible to start doing new (for then) end game content, like heroic dungeons and more and more raids. Which is fine, I suppose, but it cuts out all of those players who were there just for the exploration and fun of discovering new things. Throw in the lack of player housing and the eventual uselessness of most crafting and there's not really much for people to do who aren't hardcore raiders or mythic+ runners. Meanwhile, Ultima Online is *still* around, and player-run Star Wars: Galaxies servers (pre-NGE version, before Sony ruined the game by turning it into an EverQuest clone) are still popular because they fill that niche that later iterations of MMOs sort of abandoned. Then you've got the story-driven MMOs like The Old Republic and Final Fantasy 14, both of which offer less of a focus on end-game content (which hurt SWTOR initially, but which has since stabilized and has a vibrant, thriving community) and plenty of things to do like in-depth housing systems, appearances/glamours, crafting, and so on. The real irony is that WoW got super popular by being the super casual MMO. Now, the only draw to WoW are the hardcore stuff like raids and mythics. There's really no super casual content anymore.

Vanilla WoW was basically Everquest made easier, Both games were less sandboxy and less open than UO or SWG. People like to hold it up as some pinnacle and I think it was a good game, but I have to laugh whenever people call it a sandbox style game. Everquest, to Vanilla WoW, to modern WoW a continuation of the same line. Also, you could argue Everquest's precursor was SojournMUD - a MUD both Brad McQuaid and John Smedley played. Also, I think it's a bit funny you mention both UO and SWG. Raph Koster was the lead designer on UO, and he was the creative director of SWG. You're trying to create a generality where they don't exist, SWG and UO were open because that's the type of MMO Raph Koster liked to make.

I couldn't agree any more than I do with this statement. I want an MMO that feels more like a tabletop RPG. D&D was the basis for most MUDs (multi user dungeons online), which became the basis for the first MMOs. I've had people tell me that there's no way an MMO can do something like that, but isn't that just because they haven't tried? Also, FoH was on Veeshan - my EQ server, and I raided. Ran into them many times farming in the high level dungeons. Furor and his entire guild, really, were tools back then. What I didn't know was that he ended up working for Blizz, or that Furor was Alex Afrasiabi. Not super surprised now that I do know - he was jerk in the game... like, he was to your average online gamer as your average online gamer is to someone's saintly grandma.

I disagree it’s story is so weak compared to the Witcher 3

Ppl think that boring is the reason why a game die or it’s bad game without actually questioning that so they really care about what other thinking? You can technically watch XIV official forum recently. You can see that with how ppl talk about gaming in general. You don’t design for a perfect game, you design for ppl who actually interested to it. MMO doesn’t need to keep ppl in loop to survive. Just make things that work for itself and reaching out to those who like it. Honestly, PVP or competitive side of gaming is something the most annoying group that all I see are objective focuses. If you replace a game with something that make you happy and appreciate it because they exist, which one should be better? Do games must be about tolerance of a person to satisfy their needs or just make for whatever the reason they have to? Is there a pleasure to do that? You can’t really just form a way then trying dip on anything that not in that route and disqualify it. Otherwise, we don’t even have ppl that take risk to change something or indie games to play. MMO in general dying because that was a thing where it’s the only way for oneself to prove that they’re right and the just. Otherwise, anything is bad as it doesn’t fit the category. That’s what pride like plus voting outcome not because of money issues.

I also disagree that Witcher storytelling is consistent or variety enough btw. You can’t compare this to that when you only look on a single aspect of something then comparing with another that run on the larger picture for the validation of the whole thing where others are choosing a different route due to their approach and application.

@@dale7326 you need a job lol

Gra Ff14 crafting is good. But for me the gold standard is Star Wars Galaxies

True! I initially played Runescape just getting lost in the world, then I started caring more about combat and focusing on that, and now that I'm getting back into OSRS I see the game for what it truly is - an incredibly wild free market simulation inside of a fantasy adventure, held together by player gathering, crafting and consuming of resources.

@@jaskim5723 Galaxies was (and is, thanks to fan servers) a fantastic crafting experience. I remember putting together starter packs with a backpack filled with a CDEF rifle, carbine, and pistol, rations, and basic camping gear, and then putting them up on the market for newbies to buy and use. Then, later, getting into the tweaking and tuning of stats on ship parts to get juuuuuust the right gear for my ships. It was so gratifying.

@@Author_Gamer FFXIV's crafting is nice but it's a lot smaller than it looks. All the classes are the same and once you figure out one, you figure out the rest. Didn't stop me from becoming an omnicrafter though.

Respect. Triton or? They were good as well.

@@garrett3117 Triton.

@Kinada Right on man. On behalf of a lot of peeps thx for the UI.

Evil Empire bitches. Lol, /ooc would change the second they zoned in, you knew. And having actual risks for death, may want to plan accordingly depending on the zone/mob.

Played with alot of los.. I was in euphoria on nameless...miss it hope they bring it back

It's the same thing with Ion being the lead game designer. Dude's from Elitist Jerks and was lead encounter designer before he took over the big chair. Which explains why raids (and, to a lesser extent, dungeons) get great encounters, but the story is crap, the entire non-raid, non-mythic end game is just crappy grindfests for sliver thin power gains that will be worthless in the next patch, and a desert-like dearth of actual content.

I miss the old IRC channel, Furor's rants (including calling me a fucktard every now and then) were always enjoyable

@@Fadaar Good times.

Shouldn't have PROMOTED Ion. He was best in the raid-building room, being a leader outside of that is above his wheelhouse.

[After an entire video about how the trajectory of modern MMO game design can be traced back to a handful of Everquest guild leaders] "This is Ion Hazzikostas' fault."

@@Sluaghlock not a wow player, but even before this video there are complaints about ion. Especially with designing raids with plugins in mind

The game has been out for 3 years, those kinks are the game and the stated design.

@@GetterRay Yeah that's what I figured as well. That's why I'm not going to level my characters pass PVP eligible level.

@@snazzydrew Unironically based. Do what you want.

It was a joke at Afrasabi's expense due to his history of sexual harassment

​@@bellulargaming9515 What's the joke?

@@zishlol that he's a defiler.

@@zishlol I haven't seen such a strong wooosh in a couple years! xD

@@zishlol An archaic definition of defile is to “Violate the chastity of (a woman)”

H..h..have you tried the critically acclaimed Final Fantasy 14? I kid, I won't do the whole pitch, but seriously though, if you want to go back to a game that's about the world, FFXIV has done a pretty good job. ESO as well if you're looking for a less uhh "weeby"? game. I don't mean that as an insult to FF, I main FF right now, I just don't know how to better describe the difference.

based on your description i feel like ff14 is everything you could ever want from a game

@@xXAkirhaXx Yeppers! I played FFXIV before I even considered giving WoW a real chance. And FFXIV is great but has a hard time holding my attention but I think that's by design. As for weeby games... My favorite genre is jRPG. So I'm one of those degenerates.

@@xXAkirhaXx I love ESO for the openness of exploration. The Tamriel One expansion really fixed all of the issues I had with it. And the RvRvR combat in Cyrodiil is utterly mind-blowing. It reminds me a lot of the world PvP that used to exist in WoW (before WoW killed it with Cataclysm) but better. I love FF14 for the community and sheer scope of things to do. Which brings me back to one of the great things about ESO: how it handles the free-to-play model. If I feel like I'm going to be going into it hardcore for a few months, I can sub. Otherwise, if I've just back to dabble around and explore a bit, see some new content, I can stay F2P and not miss anything (like the shared crafting bag).

@@Maria_Erias ESO definitely holds ne attention longer than FFXIV because of the freedom of exploration. And being a big TES lore nerd, it's perfectly filled to the brim with LORE!

And meanwhile, EverQuest is still chugging along and pumping out new content.

@@Maria_Erias EverQuest may have been rather mercilessly executed, but to everyone's shock...it never actually died. That fucking game REFUSES to die.

he was probably involved in the mess of sexual allegations though which is why he had to leave.

@@mactassio21 I wouldn't feel comfortable speculating about that with nothing to go on. It's entirely possible you're right, but it's also entirely possible that he did nothing wrong. Without any evidence or even hearsay on the matter, it's probably better to not make idle accusations.

I don't think most players even do Savage. Pretty sure there have been some surveys and only maybe 25% clear savage difficulty raids. So we can bump that number up a bit as there are some who will try and not clear so maybe only a third tries Savage. I think most are plenty content to do the story, do the more casual / midcore content (think 24 man raids and EX trials) and call it a day.

@@yoda0017 thats fair, i just hear lots of 'my static cleared X savage!' so i assumed most people do it

2:02 called it

Rathe was such bs, on the money there. Then again at least it keyed everyone that got a hail vs dumb shit like Lucid Shard farming, Sleepers Tomb (turning in what was often an upgrade for you or another guildmate), Trak Tooth time sink for VP, Bane Weapons. But you're right, nothing comes even close, & an actual penalty for fucking up is what made the accomplishments outweigh the equivalent in other games. Lack of instancing, the racing...something people would never even put up with today, especially w/ about 13 sec attention span. Cheers.

Not really. WoW become the most successful game in it's genre that even 15 years later no other game has matched it's peak.

XIV devs realized that locking jobs behind story was a bad idea XD so they haven't done it since. I can see astrologian being able to change locations due to it's quest line taking place mostly in ARR but dark knight and machinist stories are heavily locked in ishgard zones and areas. Massive pain XD I'm with you 💯

@@MrLightlike78 Astrologian takes place entirely in HW areas. It’s literally Ishgard being taught Sharlayan astrology.

The thing is, WoW had the right idea to start (in my opinion, at least). It didn't have a focus on the super hardcore stuff like EverQuest did. Instead, it was just a big, open world to explore, one where you got to go and see places and meet people that you'd spent so much time with in Warcraft 2 and 3. It was the perfect blend of "choose your own adventure" and sightseeing tour.

No?

@@bellulargaming9515 oh ok. I was thinking that there was a channel to talk about wow sorry.

@@Mclucasrv Ah no, this isn't really about WoW - LoS's impact hits the whole industry

The casual vs. hardcore split sometimes misses that a hardcore player is not necessarily a player that only does the hardest content/raids all the time/only crunches the numbers. That's what most people do think of when the discussion turns to talking about "hardcore", either in praise or in dismissal, but it is entirely possible to play an MMORPG as a hardcore crafter, hardcore auction house maven, hardcore side content enjoyer, hardcore social event hoster. There's this tendency in the discussion to vastly overvalue People Who Raid over people who do anything else, even if the people doing that anything else have built their entire lives around being the best darn house decorator/glam designer/chocobo racer they can be. You're not wrong in that you want passionate, "hardcore" people on your game dev team, but their passions need to be diverse and they need to understand that a chair with only one leg is going to fall over.

@@lampdevil I mean obviously thats one way. My point was more that these guys are all clearly these type-A nerds that just came in to bust balls and create the best endfucking game content they could make no matter the costs. That's what you want in a game, pure energy. And it attracted people with likewise personalities. I only played in the day but I really get a feeling back then you had these no fucks given types of guys, nerds sure but still. I mean the Onyxia wipe song guy for example, sure its a raging nerd. But the point is these guys were all just competing and trying to get an egde over one another. Hell even the people not raiding high up the ladder were rough around the egdes. And it got them millions of likeminded subscribers lo and behold. Nowadays I think the crowd that plays WoW and such are different. Like I really do and notice that. And I don't think thats a bad thing. But it's just a different type of player thats engaging with WoW now. So they also need to be different. And what you say is true I mean look at FF14 and how these are probably some of the most hardcore story oriented developers they got. And the people that play that game just analyze the heck out of that games story content. There are so many ways to go full in on a concept be it the raiding, the story or the open world. The aim should be to get exceptionally passionate people in the right roles for the job. I think WoW development lacks that. It needs to decide what it is and hire hardcore people from that area of expertise.