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Thomist vs Molinist Predestination w/ Fr. Dominic Legge 

Pints With Aquinas
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I'm joined by Fr. Dominc Legge to discuss the differences between Thomist and Molinist predestination.
We'll be taking questions from Patrons and Super Chatters
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28 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 250   
@turegoodoverlooked
@turegoodoverlooked 3 года назад
Ha, providence is wild. Was thinking yesterday "I wish Matt Fradd would talk to someone about the difference between Molinism and the Thomistic understanding of predestination". Well, here we go.
@katiehendricks6719
@katiehendricks6719 3 года назад
Noooooooooo how did I miss it!!!!!!!! Watching now, devastated I missed it live!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@katiehendricks6719
@katiehendricks6719 3 года назад
Well that made my day, week! Thank you so much for having him on. I’m going to have to watch it two more times, takes notes and read that book. After that I may be able to explain why I’m a thomist in this area! Great interview!
@justinmora9636
@justinmora9636 3 года назад
We had Aquinas 101 videos assigned to us in my Medieval Philosophy Class at Loyola Marymount University!!!!
@justinmora9636
@justinmora9636 3 года назад
@Prasanth Thomas he teaches at Pasadena City College. Our best claim to fame for philosophy at Loyola Marymount is probably Dr. Christopher Kaczor
@chromebook1794
@chromebook1794 2 года назад
Really? I'm 15 and I listen to them all the time. I do understand them by the way.
@BellatorChristi
@BellatorChristi 3 года назад
From my readings of the Molinist position, I do not think that Molina ever holds that the creature is not moved upon by God. Francisco Suarez particularly emphasizes the concept of God's primary movement upon the person. I do not think that the Molinist position negates the issue of potency and actuality.
@julioalonzo1383
@julioalonzo1383 3 года назад
This was great! Please bring Fr. Dominic more often!
@rampayge1977
@rampayge1977 3 года назад
I’m reading “Grace, Predestination, and the Salvific Will of God” by Fr. William Most; he does a great job with dissecting both sides of the issue and figuring out what works and what doesn’t!
@HosannaInExcelsis
@HosannaInExcelsis 3 года назад
He doesn’t seem to be a big fan of the Thomistic position, does he?
@rampayge1977
@rampayge1977 3 года назад
@@HosannaInExcelsis As far as I’ve read, not really, but I like how he explores the topic by consulting Divine Revelation (scripture, the Magisterium, tradition, etc.) first before applying metaphysics, as I think it gets to the heart of who God is more clearly than trying to brute force it with human reasoning alone
@matthewm1618
@matthewm1618 3 года назад
Im reading that as well
@scientiaexpandinghorizons
@scientiaexpandinghorizons 2 года назад
Most represents one strand Thomism, similar to Maritain, Journet, Marin-Sola, Lonergan, et al. It’s a lot more complicated than Thomism vs Molinism. Bañezian Thomists like to pretend that it is that simple, i.e., that all other so-called Thomist accounts are reducible to Molinism. The more lively debate on grace/predestination is between different Thomist schools, e.g., Marin-Sola vs Garrigou-Lagrange. Many Dominicans today agree with Marin-Sola’s position, exposited expertly by Michael Torre’s work, but a few still argue vociferously for the Bañezian view (which they conflate with Aquinas himself). Most examines Marin-Sola, differing only a little from him. He says he basically follows Maritain & Journet, but Torre has shown that they took their articulations from Marin-Sola (even if i & Most think they may have improved it a bit). Lonergan’s work, Grace and Freedom, is the unparalleled exegesis of Aquinas, taking a position in the end very similar to Marin-Sola/Maritain/Journet. Most, however, does entertain Molinism much more than do these authors, but he ultimately doesn’t agree with Molinism (or Bañezianism).
@a.d1287
@a.d1287 Год назад
@@scientiaexpandinghorizons was lagrange a banezian?
@PresbyterianPaladin
@PresbyterianPaladin 3 года назад
I feel Fr. Legge in several places mischaracterizes or misrepresents the Molinist position for example his comments around the 33 minute mark about Molina's conception of free will violating the act-potency distinction because it would make our wills capable of moving from potential to act without themselves being acted upon seems woefully ignorant of Molina's doctrine of general concurrence. As Kirk MacGregor points out in his book "Luis De Molina": "During the first and second trimesters of year three (1556 - 57), Molina read Aristotle’s Physica (Physics) and was influenced by his theory of causation. According to Aristotle, there are four types of cause: material cause, explaining what something is made of; formal cause, explaining the form or pattern an entity follows to become that entity; efficient cause, explaining the actual source of change; and final cause, explaining the intended purpose of change. Regarding efficient cause, Molina subdivided this notion into primary causation, particular (direct) causation, and general (universal or indirect) causation. Molina held that God is the primary cause of everything that occurs; in the words of Alfred Freddoso, God “created the original constituents of the universe ex nihilo, and no creature can exist or possess causal power through any interval of time unless God conserves it and its powers in being at every instant in that interval.”41 However, this does not mean that, for everything that occurs, God determines it or is morally responsible for it. Molina maintained that God is the particular or direct cause when God does determine something (for which thing he would be morally responsible) by producing an effect by himself, since God’s causal power by itself controls the specific nature of the effect.42 But Molina insisted that creatures possess authentic causal power as well and are therefore particular yet secondary causes. Nonetheless, for creatures to exercise their causal power, God must simultaneously and indirectly cooperate with them to produce the intended effect. When God so cooperates with creatures, God acts as a general cause of the effect, and Molina dubbed God’s simultaneous and indirect action his general concurrence (concursus generalis).43 The term general indicates that the specific nature of the effect (i.e., good or evil) is in no way attributable to God’s causal contribution, although that contribution is necessary in order for any effect to be produced at all. Rather, the goodness or badness of the effect is due solely to the creatures, who are the particular causes of the effect. To illustrate, Molina observed that the sun causally contributes to human acts of sin by providing heat and light on earth, without which humans could do nothing. Hence the sun is a general or indirect cause of human sin. Obviously, however, the sun is not morally responsible for human sin, for none of its causal input determined the production of sinful actions. Human beings freely choose to channel the sun’s causal input toward sinful actions and are therefore solely responsible for them.44" (MacGregor, 53-54) Thus Molina's conception of free will in no way contradicts the act-potency distinction. This becomes even more obvious when we note (as MacGregor does) that: "In the third trimester of year three, Molina turned to Aristotle’s De coelo (On the Heavens) and De generatione et corruptione (On Generation and Corruption). Chief among Aristotle’s cosmological works, De coelo supplied Molina with an argument for the existence of God from motion or change. Based on the reduction of potency to act, Molina perceived that if something is moved from one state to another, it must be moved by something already moving. But since an infinite regress is impossible, the thing, upon tracing back the causal chain, must ultimately be moved by an unmoved mover, who is God.51 On a related note, De generatione helped Molina perceive the distinction between contingent being and necessary being. Contingent being can come into existence and pass out of existence, while necessary being simply exists and can neither come into existence nor pass out of existence. In other words, it is logically possible for contingent being not to exist, but it is logically impossible for necessary being not to exist.52 This distinction enabled Molina to propose a second argument for God’s existence based on contingency and necessity. Molina reasoned that since contingent being, by definition, cannot bring itself into existence, there must be a reason why contingent being exists. Hence contingent being must have been brought into existence by necessary being, which Molina identifies as God.53 The conditional demands that which is absolute." (MacGregor, 55-56). As such it would be absurd for Molina not to have recognized that the act potency distinction (which he was thoroughly familiar with) was somehow at odds with his conception of free will, if it actually were. But as we saw his doctrine of concurrence shows there is no such problem. I would expect Fr. Legge to know this, which is why I would say he is mischaracterizing or misrepresenting Molina and the Molinist view.
@FreethinkingMinistries
@FreethinkingMinistries 3 года назад
Good points, Jake!
@2HungerandThirst
@2HungerandThirst 3 года назад
Great exposition of the video! I'm no longer RC (was raised in a RC family), but love and respect the Catholic church as a non-Catholic pastor and theologian myself. I stumbled upon Molina's teachings about a year ago and I have to say I have trouble finding disagreement with them! I'm not a Calvinist neither am I Arminian...I'm a follower of Christ, period. BUT, the freedom of the will seems to be different from what Fr. Legge is describing. I think a pro-Molinist position (even from a RC Priest...if possible) would be a benefit to balance out the discussion.
@hepatitis
@hepatitis 2 года назад
I have to re-read your comment. You make a good point. I'm a catholic who admires Aquinas but I think Molina is more plausible on this one...
@mattsigl1426
@mattsigl1426 2 года назад
Bingo! Great analysis. The free actions of creatures are potentials of instances of Contingent Being that God can actualize by bringing the creature into actual existence and therefore “determine” that creatures actuality, while the creatures free behavior exists “within” the creature (or better, the creature’s potential) even prior to its creation. Another way to look at it is that when God creates a free creature he brings into being an actual instance or instances of true, irreducible, finite free choice. God’s freedom, of a different order, is the choice about what potential free decisions to make actual free decisions. This is different than the creature’s free potential to choose amongst alternatives, a freedom which corresponds to the creature’s intrinsic perception of what is possible within his experience of freedom, a set of possibilities corresponding to God’s natural knowledge of possible ways things could be, possible choices the creature COULD make. A creature, it could be said, discovers something about God’s middle knowledge when he makes a free choice.
@Z__K217
@Z__K217 2 года назад
Greetings: Molina, via concurrence and preservation has God as the the efficient cause of a free action. What God is not, is a formal cause of that action, I.e. the ‘shape’ it takes. For man to be morally responsible the ‘shape’ of that action must be sufficiently caused by themselves. This sufficient, formal causation of a free act is still rather mysterious (in my view). Us, being made in the image of God may have this ability in virtue of the imago dei, i.e. when freely willing, we are our own ‘little un-moved movers’. In this way we mirror some of the mystery of God as unmoved mover with respect to freedom.
@mananabobea5704
@mananabobea5704 10 месяцев назад
From Dominican Republic I congratulate Fr Dominic and pray to God that help you to understand his will.
@spencerhargadon8557
@spencerhargadon8557 8 месяцев назад
I don't understand how Father's description of predestination at the end doesn't naturally mean double predestination. To me this has always been the attraction of Molinism. I'm not interested in defending some radical modern view of freedom. Rather I'm trying to reconcile how the Thomistic vs Calvinist descriptions of predestination often feel like distinctions without real difference, and my understanding is that the rejection of Calvin is because of Double Predestination. I think the whole conversation also gets messy because it is the eternal God, outside of time, and his interactions with us living in this big ball of timey wimey.
@yepyep5006
@yepyep5006 6 месяцев назад
This comment completely sums up my thoughts 😂
@kvnboudreaux
@kvnboudreaux Месяц назад
As I have been on a deep dive in Calvinism I have asked myself the same question thinking they are very familiar. I have to say I was becoming convinced of the Calvinist position due to the scriptural evidence
@thomasberar4311
@thomasberar4311 13 дней назад
@@spencerhargadon8557 hey man. Former Calvinist here. The reason thomist predestination is different is because we are working with different presuppositions on justification. The reformers would say justification is forensic but Catholic theology says you have a process of justification where God makes you just. The differences are more clear when you understand that framework. Like Augustine puts it. “When we stand we stand by Gods will, when we fall we fall by our own will” The Catholic dogma list reflects this. Predestined to salvation not in anything in the creature. Reprobation on foreseen rejection.
@jddeklerk
@jddeklerk 2 года назад
I, a Calvinist pastor, really enjoyed this and agreed with everything that Fr. Legge said here about the topic.
@CCShorts
@CCShorts 2 года назад
Is it possible for God to determine that you do what *you want to do* but it’s also what he *wants* you to do? What if “freewill” simply means “doing what *you want* to do”? In this CCShort Collin from The Consistent Calvinism Podcast answers this very question and shows how the “puppet” or “robot” argument does not work… What If Freewill Simply Means Doing What You Want? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mJwdfkFoW44.html
@mikethemonsta15
@mikethemonsta15 2 года назад
Wonderful! Come join the Catholic Church!
@tjs.5044
@tjs.5044 2 года назад
@@mikethemonsta15 no!
@Z__K217
@Z__K217 2 года назад
Compatibilism with respect to the ‘freedom’ of the will may be the overlap between Calvin and Thomas.
@GloomZzyy
@GloomZzyy Год назад
​@@Z__K217 I was just thinking about that
@bryanwalters9574
@bryanwalters9574 3 года назад
I have heard Catholics often say how molinism and Thomism are both acceptable views on predestination within the church. However, whenever I tried to find out what the Thomist view actually is I end up confused. After watching this start to finish, I think I finally understand the Thomist view and I find myself utterly persuaded.
@joaop.r.4129
@joaop.r.4129 3 года назад
There is also Zumel’s view, who was a Thomist and is similar with Fr Most’s view. I don’t know if this video talks about him
@thorobreu
@thorobreu 3 года назад
Matt I want you to know that the "sarcastic tone" joke was really funny, and I'm sorry it wasn't recognized at the time
@claymcdermott718
@claymcdermott718 3 года назад
Fr Legge is all business. Hahaha
@katieg.4593
@katieg.4593 5 месяцев назад
😂 the look on Matt's face! 😂
@zipppy2006
@zipppy2006 2 года назад
I enjoyed this video and I think Fr. Legge was much more just to Molinism here than he was in the previous discussion on morality. That said, I have two criticisms. First, you can take this truth to the bank, "In discussions of free will and grace it is always easier to criticize another's explanation than to give your own." In these discussions everyone's boat is full of holes, and what often happens is that they keep pointing fingers at the other faulty boats while ignoring the fact that their own does not hold water. The gist of this video was Fr. Legge presenting Molinism and giving Thomistic criticisms. Crucially, he failed to address or even mention the (serious) problems with the "Thomist" position. Second, at various points he conflated Thomas with Bañez, and this is a common faux pas. Dominicans--particularly those of the Eastern Province--tend to follow a Bañezian interpretation of Thomas, but they often fail to mention that this is an _interpretation._ There are serious _Thomistic_ problems with the Bañezian position. There are many Thomistic critiques of the Bañezian position of physical premotion that Legge favors, including Dr. Matthew Diem's recent paper, "Why not to be a ‘Thomist’: A Critique of the Bañezian Reconciliation of Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom."
@dblake32
@dblake32 2 года назад
Lots of words, but you don't say anything. The Thomist boat is full of holes and can't hold water (sic). There are serious problems with the "Thomist" position and serious (again) Thomistic problems with the Banezian position. However, you fail to enumerate any of these holes or problems. Perhaps these so-called problems are so well known that my ignorance is showing, but some examples would be enlightening.
@jbell4574
@jbell4574 2 года назад
@Dan Blake I think their idea was to show that there’s still intelligible and convincing ideas outside of Bañezian Thomism, (which is very true as my patron St. Francis de Sales, doctor of the church, agrees that Molinism is truer but not fully correct), ideas such as those apparently posited in the Diem paper. I haven’t read the paper but I’m pretty sure that’s why they suggested it.
@zipppy2006
@zipppy2006 2 года назад
@@dblake32 Did you notice the paper I cited? Why not try reading it? Or de Lubac's Surnaturel? Or David Bentley Hart's, "Providence and Causality: On Divine Innocence." The problems with Banezian Thomism are well known, but if you are committed to ignoring them you certainly won't see them.
@dblake32
@dblake32 2 года назад
@@zipppy2006 Blah, blah, blah. More words without saying anything. So much for dialogue.
@zipppy2006
@zipppy2006 2 года назад
@@dblake32 Clearly you are a troll. If you are allergic to words, I would suggest trolling on Instagram or Tiktok or somesuch alternative. Trolling in a RU-vid comment section turns out to be a word-dependent activity. Best of luck, then.
@user-ec7od1gy4l
@user-ec7od1gy4l 4 месяца назад
Fr. Dominic Legge is almost a genius thank you
@zackm5693
@zackm5693 10 месяцев назад
People don’t realize that classical protestants/Reformed Christian’s are completely Augustianian/Thomist in matters relating to predestination/free will/Soteriology
@avidcritick9290
@avidcritick9290 Месяц назад
“Completely”.
@michaelventer885
@michaelventer885 2 года назад
As a Calvinist myself, this conversation was very good. Thank you. Yes, I think Fr Dominc handles this subject very delicately. Grace is undeserved by defenition. On the Compatabilist view we may say that the Holy Bible teaches human responsibility and God's sogvereinty as both 100% true, and so all the time. One can see this as two true axioms from where Compatabilism might be deduced. Molinism, as an Libertarian Free Will Theodicy, are from the presupposition of Incompatabilism first and foremost. This commits them to all sorts of interesting exegetical problems in my view.Thank you for a great video and conversation. Soli Deo gloria.
@thomasthellamas9886
@thomasthellamas9886 3 месяца назад
@@DudeNamedDuncanand yet the RCC condemned Jansenism smh
@stquodvultdeus4613
@stquodvultdeus4613 22 дня назад
@@thomasthellamas9886 Yeah the Roman Catholic Church is not entirely consistent. Jansenists believe basically the same things as Thomists on predestination, its just that Jansenists are more straightforward
@thomasthellamas9886
@thomasthellamas9886 22 дня назад
@@stquodvultdeus4613 EXACTLY! Someone finally said it
@MirKat1523
@MirKat1523 Год назад
I didn't even know Molinist was a thing. But hey you learn something new everyday. Great job guys!!
@sinksdx
@sinksdx 3 месяца назад
Fr. Legge is simply amazing.
@deanc685
@deanc685 3 года назад
The Aquinas 101 program is fantastic.
@Giovanibeyond
@Giovanibeyond 3 года назад
Watching from Brazil! God bless you, Matt.
@stephanelarochelle2484
@stephanelarochelle2484 3 года назад
It would have been interesting to have a Molinist to explain his view ... Not that Fr Legge did not explain it well, but he is clearly a Thomist.... Interesting presentation!
@StSylvester
@StSylvester 3 года назад
This is the best video you've ever made (that I've seen). Tough subject, but very, very important. Well done.
@chrisraper6181
@chrisraper6181 2 года назад
The fact that the guest of this show was unfamiliar with "compatibilism" and describes Molinism as God "foreseeing" people's decisions (as opposed to "conceiving") shows me that he is seriously deficient in his knowledge of the alternatives to Thomism for reconciling human freedom and divine sovereignty.
@YovanypadillaJr
@YovanypadillaJr 3 года назад
This should be one of your debates Matt.
@hughmungus9739
@hughmungus9739 3 года назад
🅱️olinist vs 🅱️homist debate when? 💪🏼
@markstevenpandan890
@markstevenpandan890 3 года назад
@@deusimperator gonna be fun
@matthewluisantero5051
@matthewluisantero5051 3 года назад
Make it even more chaotic. Just have a Calvinist/Molinist/Thomist/Arminian round table
@watsonblack7481
@watsonblack7481 3 года назад
@@matthewluisantero5051 lol
@Greg-n
@Greg-n 5 месяцев назад
​@@matthewluisantero5051the Armenian and Calvanist are kind of redundant man...
@boose4130
@boose4130 Год назад
This seems like a very bad explanation of the Molinist position. Molina and molinists of course would recognize both that libertarian creatures are primarily moved by God and that what Molina calls prevenient grace, and therefore grace itself, is necessary to move souls towards salvation. The molinist position does not edge grace out of the equation of human acts by any stretch of the imagination. Also, the fact that Father's explanation of the Molinist position didn't include a single mention of middle knowledge or counterfactuals is a real problem for his "steel man" of molinism. Also, Mary for sure could *not* have sinned. It's not like she was a total pro at fighting temptation, she was perfected by grace. She could not have sinned in the same way that all the saints cannot sin. Please tell me how that last question doesn't just hit the nail on the head. The question was effectively, "how is your position not Calvinism?" and the answer was "Uhhh it's a mystery?"
@jatnarivas8741
@jatnarivas8741 Месяц назад
His position is not Calvinism because there's no double predestination
@jatnarivas8741
@jatnarivas8741 Месяц назад
Also because there's no belief in the total depravation of man
@callofsuccess7960
@callofsuccess7960 2 месяца назад
Fr. Dominic Legge is a gigachad. Love his style so much.
@Sean-lv6fx
@Sean-lv6fx 2 года назад
The Thomistic view here as explained by Father Legge sounds like it contradicts the decrees at the Council of Trent. The decrees seem to be more consistent with the Molinist explanation regarding God's grace and free will. CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.
@FrenchToast1
@FrenchToast1 2 месяца назад
Gods extraordinary efficacious grace isn't necessarily accepted, but is certainly accepted. Necessarily meaning it HAS to be, and it is not possible to be otherwise. Certainly meaning it WILL be, but not by necessity, since it COULD have been otherwise.
@DSTH323
@DSTH323 2 года назад
For any who might be interested, at Catholic Critique (WordPress) see "Harmony and Differences on Predestination in Catholic Theology"
@Z__K217
@Z__K217 2 года назад
Matt - a quality summary of Molinism and salvation circa 26:06 - 26:30min.
@TheOtherSymeon
@TheOtherSymeon 3 года назад
Matt, would it be possible to have Dr. Tim Stratton, a leading Molinist and good friend of many Catholics in his local area (myself being one of them), on your show, with Fr. Dominic Legge, to respond to this (unintentionally, I hope) poor presentation of Molinism, and dialogue with Fr. Dominic about the similarities and differences between Molinism and Thomism?
@alexjoneschannel
@alexjoneschannel 2 года назад
Is Tim the guy who's partnered with Craig?
@FreethinkingMinistries
@FreethinkingMinistries Год назад
@@alexjoneschannel I am a Reasonable Faith chapter director and communicate with Dr. Craig regularly. He endorsed my book on Molinism.
@Racingbro1986
@Racingbro1986 Месяц назад
Calvinist leaning protestant here, I really appreciate the Thomist approach. You have to be honest the language in the Bible points to predestination, if God knows the outcome, then in some existence it’s determined, if it’s determined I would prefer it’s by God then any outside force.
@marianweigh6411
@marianweigh6411 2 года назад
Wow please make a clip of Fr Dominic from the first 15 minutes explaining Freedom and Grace so clearly!! Thank you Matt and channel team!
@feuerschwamm
@feuerschwamm 9 месяцев назад
I would highly recommend to read Father Most book about this topic. Neither Thomist nor Molinist, total game changer. Sadly, hard to find in paper, but available online. "In brief, the solution will be as follows. There are three logical stages in the process of predestination: 1) The universal salvific will, which is sincere and extremely strong. 2) The reprobation of all whom God foresees will gravely and persistently resist grace: Reprobation after and because of foreseen demerits. 3) Predestination of all others, in whom God does not foresee grave and persistent resistance.7 This decree of predestination is a continuation and positive carrying out of the initial universal salvific will. The cause of this decree is not human merits-up to this stage, God has not looked at human merits, for, in the logical series at which God looks, merits are neither a cause nor a condition-the sole cause of this decree of predestination is the goodness and generosity of the Father who from the beginning wanted to save all and, at this point, actually decrees the salvation of all who do not resist gravely and persistently. No positive condition needs to be placed by man in order that God may predestine, because the strong universal salvific will continues in its course by its own force. A grave condition would have to be placed by man to interrupt the course of this will, but, precisely because this will continues in its course by its own force, nothing is required from man that it may continue, and at the proper point, decree predestination. For without predestination, that salvation which God willed from the beginning and still wills to confer could not be had: Predestination before consideration of merits." www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=214
@DavidLarson100
@DavidLarson100 8 месяцев назад
This makes more sense than the more medieval theology presented here, but if God has universal salvific will (which the Church has confirmed), then why would He create creatures that He foresees will always reject Him no matter what He does? Are those creatures "good" in the sense that the rest of His creation is? Not saying it isn't possible, but just leaves me wondering why He would make such beings if they are unable to be saved and will end up suffering unspeakably and eternally...
@FrenchToast1
@FrenchToast1 2 месяца назад
​@DavidLarson100 The issue there is that there IS a real possibility of for all men to be saved, since it is the church teaching, that God has a universal salvific will.
@livingstranger
@livingstranger 3 года назад
I love Matt’s cheeky dry humor
@amaraheising4672
@amaraheising4672 3 года назад
Really well articulated illustrations Father Legg. Thank you.
@derechoplano
@derechoplano 3 года назад
I think predestination to hell is the weak point of the Thomistic position. Of course, we are not owed grace nor going to Heaven. But, if God creates us as imperfect beings, and gives graces only to some people, we don't deserve eternal suffering either. Thomists and Calvinists want it to have it both ways: God has all the power but none of the responsibility, human beings have no power but the responsibility and the punishment. This position is not compatible with the New Testament, which says that God does not want anybody to be lost. I waited the entire interview to see how Thomism answers that. The question (which is the main point of discussion) was rushed at the end of the interview. The answer "it's a mystery" rings hollow, after an hour of Fr. Dominic explaining in detail how grace works and how God is and works, which assumes lots of extra-Biblical knowledge of God. This was not mysterious at all but suddenly, when the hard question appears, God is a mystery, only regarding this point. Very convenient.
@bobseehafer5414
@bobseehafer5414 3 года назад
This was epic I see a book I need to buy now Thanks for this awesome channel
@Iffmeister
@Iffmeister 3 года назад
Been waiting for this stream for so long. Let's go
@chloewilson9898
@chloewilson9898 Год назад
Recently watched several presentations WLC has given. I still am confused about why his objection to Calivism and Thomism doesn't work? He states that if God is the source of every act of our will, then God would be the source and therefore author of evil acts, which is a logical incompatibility with God's goodness. And I still don't know how to answer that after listening to this
@charlesjoyce982
@charlesjoyce982 Месяц назад
Evil is privatio boni. Evil does not exist. Aquinas says that God is the cause of the act of sin but not the sin itself. But sin, as privatio boni, has no being.
@NoahHolsclaw
@NoahHolsclaw 3 года назад
Loved this learned so much.
@winstonbarquez9538
@winstonbarquez9538 3 года назад
Fundamentally, we do not know all the answers in the dynamic relationship between divine grace and human freedom. This is one of the mysteries of God's action in the world.
@mikeranieri7859
@mikeranieri7859 2 года назад
This is not a criticism but If you want to hear a Catholic Dominican priest that talks like a Calvinist this is the show for you!
@annakimborahpa
@annakimborahpa 2 года назад
Perhaps, but does Fr. Legge sound like John Calvin from his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 21, excerpted from Paragraph 5? "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. ALL ARE NOT CREATED ON EQUAL TERMS, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
@jgalang1881
@jgalang1881 3 года назад
This is very interesting. Can we have a graphic (visual) representation of Thomist vs. Molinist vs. Protestant predestination?
@lucasvinicios4687
@lucasvinicios4687 3 года назад
It will be a great one!
@javierjosemolinapineda1735
@javierjosemolinapineda1735 3 года назад
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Protestant predestination is double predestination (God predestines some to heaven and others to hell)
@codystanfield6243
@codystanfield6243 2 года назад
Yes, technically, but your average Protestant really doesn’t believe that they lean on the Thomas point of view.
@junkim5853
@junkim5853 2 года назад
@@javierjosemolinapineda1735 this is a huge caricature only the Calvinists believe in double predestination the rest of the protestants such as the Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Anglicans, and Methodists have either a Wellsley Aremnian or Molinist view of predestination and salvation.
@michaelventer885
@michaelventer885 2 года назад
@j galang. As a protestant myself, I can safely say that the Protestant camp is deeply devided on this issue. Ranging from classical orthodoxy to all out herresey. :) I think, as a Calvinist, the Compatibilist view are very close to the Thomist view on this, if not identical. This might be a good topic for a video. Many modern Arminian protestants, like William Lane Graig, gravitate towards Molina but in my view they are incompatible. Re the "double predestination", yes, it might be stated this way but it is a little more nuanced. We destinguish God's active and passive acts and that man is responsible for his sin. Man's will is free in the conditional sence, meaninng that he does whatever he wills. He is, hoverer, a "slave to sin" as our Lord Jesus Christ says. This means his will is bonded to sin as Luther pointed out against Erasmus. This sense of freedom, is Compatible with God's sogvereinty. Blessings.
@subrje5546
@subrje5546 2 года назад
I found no other place that defined Thomistic predestination. Thank you.
@Shevock
@Shevock 5 дней назад
Interesting interview. I'd be interested in seeing him and a Jesuit professor on together to discuss this in even more depth. E.g., recreate the debates that the pope had to put a stop to!
@danielballabani1232
@danielballabani1232 3 года назад
question i have is in the Thomistic view what lesser good or other good could the angels haven chosen if they were perfectly infused with knowledge and they have a perfectly ordered will and intellect
@Adam-ue2ig
@Adam-ue2ig 2 года назад
If God just foresaw through simple foreknowledge that you would choose Him how is that truly PREDESTINATION? It seems that would just be redefining the term and performing mental gymnastics to try and make it fit a human reasoning system.
@jeffreykalb9752
@jeffreykalb9752 5 месяцев назад
A friend told me this Catholic joke: Once there was an elderly woman riding on a train. Seated across from her were two priests, the first a Jesuit, the second a Dominican. The woman noted the vast difference in their official habits, and then went on to ask them in what other ways they differed. The Dominican responded: "My order was founded by Saint Dominic, and fought the Albigensian heresy." The Jesuit then added: "My order was founded by Saint Ignatius, and fought the Protestant heresy." The woman responded: "I see, and are there other differences?" The Dominican piped in: "Have you ever met an Albigensian?"
@jdf6770
@jdf6770 3 года назад
I don´t get this thing. According to St Thomas (as far as I understood it) God predestines some to eternal life without infringing their free will. But if he chooses some and reprobates others, he makes a distinction and loves some more than others. But so many times I hear, that God loves each one of us like a good father. And actually i really badly want that to be true. How does he really love us as a father his children, if he won´t bring the salvation of some to completion, even though he could do it without doing harm to my free will (according to this logic). How can I know for sure God loves me to the degree of 1. wanting and 2. bringing about my salvation? Please help!
@MZONE991
@MZONE991 3 года назад
in Thomism there is a distinction between God's will and what God permits, if God permits your destruction he does not will it if you find the concept troubling you can adopt molinist predestination, it's okay
@rapturebound7369
@rapturebound7369 3 года назад
Yes indeed, God will bring all who freely receive Christ's forgiveness successfully to Heaven, He will not lose one.! That's why "once justified, always justified" is the Gospel truth. Well, here you bring up a very important component of salvation indeed!...the assurance of our salvation (by way of the blotting out of all of our sins). Speaking of the hope of an unregenerated person.. Hebrews 2:14-15," Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. How can a person not possess the fear of death without knowing with certainty where they are going when they die? It is the unregenerated by the Holy Spirit that have never received assurance that their sins were forgiven, the fear of death lingers within them (whether or not they vocalize that reality). It is only those renewed by the power of the Holy Spirit that can confidently say that they no longer fear physical death...Rom.8:11,"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. The scriptures clearly teach that those who are genuine, blood-bought, Holy Spirit regenerate followers of Jesus can and will have assurance of their acceptance before God, and that all their sins have been blotted out through Christ's atoning work. Subjectively speaking, this "knowing" or assurance is seen in Romans 8:16, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God," The objective truth is found in 1 John 5:12-13, " He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." How incredibly priceless are these dual realities! Associated with this is [a very critical question to ponder], a question that is derived from a Molinist perspective : "If any genuinely regenerated (and therefore justified) person will ever fall away and lose their salvation or "place in Heaven" one day, then how can any individual ever be certain that they will not be counted among those who will lose out on Heaven being their eternal abode at some point subsequent to their new birth experience?" It surely appears to me that any person who believes that there will be some (or even one regenerate person) who will lose out on Heaven cannot claim that they will enter Heaven ... assurance for them becomes a logical fallacy. And in light of this strong evidence, I believe that when a person has been justified before God, he or she was not simply placed into a position of "possibly" or "potentially" gaining a future entrance into Heaven; in the eyes of God it was a "done deal" - past tense! - Praise you Elohim! Our future inheritance was made actual and realized the moment we placed our trust in Christ as the substitute for our sins. This is why 2 Cor.5:21 has been called "The Great Exchange" -- "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." One drop of Christ's precious blood was, and is, sufficient to "seal the deal" as far as a future entrance into Heaven is concerned to those who have truly placed their faith in His atoning sacrifice! This is the Gospel truth, and although it sounds too good to be true to some, it is truly the Good News that the Loving Creator of the Universe freely offers to all! God Bless!... Steve K.
@mementolucis
@mementolucis 2 года назад
Experienced that freeing of the will when I read Hans Urs von Balthasar's "Heart of the World", specifically Chapters 7 and 8. What a blessing. I recommend anyone who reads this to pick it up immediately.
@marianweigh6411
@marianweigh6411 2 года назад
Love that book!!
@carolingian5736
@carolingian5736 Год назад
No lol
@jonathanstensberg
@jonathanstensberg 3 года назад
Pro Tip: play the intro at 1.5x for maximum hype.
@michaeloconnell3532
@michaeloconnell3532 2 года назад
The part at the end about God's grace was quite profound at about 1:07:10.
@inarticulus7687
@inarticulus7687 2 года назад
This was a fantastic episode
@el_rey_gris9321
@el_rey_gris9321 2 года назад
Could we say that in Molinism, the free assent to the grace of God strengthens the will. All being contingent on assent without God reordering our free will for his ends, but instead us asserting to the nourishment and strengthening of our will to allow us to more efficaciously choose the good
@MrJohnmartin2009
@MrJohnmartin2009 4 месяца назад
Fr Dominic was once baptised Francis Arm and now he's on the run.
@kylespectra6685
@kylespectra6685 3 года назад
Thank you for answering the question. I loved the answer, although I disagree with his conclusions. As Scotus puts it in his Ordinatio, to paraphrase with a modern example, if you want to be a lawyer or something like that, you will choose the best path that happens. The intellect is what will be presented. You can get a better understanding of the medieval understanding of the medieval understandinf of free will: iep.utm.edu/freewi-m/. It's a scholarly source, and the citations from the bottom are a good amalgamation of well respected sources. Pax Tecum.
@namapalsu2364
@namapalsu2364 3 месяца назад
How great is this stream. Why did I wait for 3 years??
@josealzaibar5274
@josealzaibar5274 Год назад
Hold up. If every actualization of the will comes from God first then that means God moved Satan's will to rebel. Isn't this extremely problematic? Am I missing something?
@joaop.r.4129
@joaop.r.4129 3 года назад
Thomism and molinism both seem to be fine when conciliating with free will, but the thing I think it is harder is with God’s salvific will. Francisco Zumel, who was a thomist contemporary to Báñez, I think, gives a very good answer to it, as far as I understood him. It is a similar, but not equal, position to Father Most’s view.
@josealzaibar5274
@josealzaibar5274 Год назад
So we're fallen creatures and stuff...but according to the premises of the Thomistic view there shouldn't even be the possibility of the Fall happening and yet it happened and if it happened we must assume it is because WILLED it, not merely that he allowed it to happen but that he WILLED it. This is disastrous.
@Jerds
@Jerds 3 года назад
Not gonna lie, Joe rogan used to be my favorite podcast, but Matt Fradd has stolen that spot for me lol.
@callofsuccess7960
@callofsuccess7960 2 месяца назад
20:35 is a hilarious interaction 🤣
@szabolcshursan761
@szabolcshursan761 3 года назад
Matt! To elucidate the points made here, make a video about the difference of the thomist and a protestant predestination (especially calvinist, or the catholic heresy, jansenist). Thanks.
@jayahladas692
@jayahladas692 2 года назад
If "No free will to choose" were true then the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment would be a joke. Think on these things:. how could souls be judged and held responsible if their actions had been predestined without free will? Is that just?
@user-yx5jd1qf8z
@user-yx5jd1qf8z 4 месяца назад
Legge should debate Dr Criag. That would be really entertaining, a catholic thomist and a prot molinist
@katiehendricks6719
@katiehendricks6719 3 года назад
10 min in and I’m already excited!
@ArchetypeGotoh
@ArchetypeGotoh 3 года назад
the enthusiasm is so real :P
@katiehendricks6719
@katiehendricks6719 3 года назад
@@ArchetypeGotoh I have been waiting for months!
@kattula76
@kattula76 2 года назад
8:11......"ok so by the time you get to the 16th century, so now we are talking 1582. There's been very important shifts, philosophical shifts. And now often the issue of human freedom is posed not in classic Augustinian terms where freedom is the power of our will to reach towards the good working for happiness, so think of the will as a faculty of loving or of desiring, ok. The shift is to start to think of the will primarily as the faculty of choosing, meaning to choose between contraries. Ok, so that's a very significant shift because for Augustine & for Aquinas it was a kind of given that your will reaches out for what is good. It's like a hungry man reaching out for food. Like you don't really deliberate about that, you just desire the food. And so the will, of course now the will is a rational appetite, so sometime it has to think about what is really good in this circumstance, or the intellect has to think about it & the will will then desire it. So, the point is THE WILL IS ALWAYS GONNA BE ORDERED TO THE GOOD in Augustinian/Thomistic (not sure what the word) & I think that's just true." (love it as it is so crucial to the issue at hand & what is freedom). later @ 15:24 "but really what freedom is about is the kind of trajectory of your life moving towards the good and you want to like consistently make your decisions so you are more & more realizing your potential. And as you do that, your whole scope of you life expands and grows. And so your decisions, your individual decisions now linked all together start to make sense and are leading you towards more firm perfection."
@claymcdermott718
@claymcdermott718 3 года назад
1:08:00 The claim Christianity makes isn't that God is a surly bureaucrat who can (even rightly) say , "I don't owe you any favors - to hell with you." The claim is we can positively call Him a loving Father. And it does no good saying, "He's also a just judge," because there isn't anything just about arbitrarily giving some children spiritual food, and then pardoning them, and then allowing others to starve and punishing them. And how could anyone be responsible for his sins, if we're all in this rigged game God plopped us into, where we cannot compete without a divine intervention? I have to feed my baby or I'm a neglectful wicked father. I can't go, "Well, baby, my food is a gift; you have no right to demand it of me."
@sallymceachen6026
@sallymceachen6026 3 года назад
But God feeds us all the time with his grace. We are like the baby who shuts his mouth firmly and turns his head away. The loving father continues to persist in offering food but does not force-feed the baby. After a time he will let the baby down from the table until maybe later he is hungry. Meanwhile the devil is somewhere around offering sweeties and crisps. I don't think any person could say, at the door of h ell, that they were never offered God's grace at any point in their life
@claymcdermott718
@claymcdermott718 3 года назад
Sally McEachen this seems to be contrary to what was argued in the above video
@claymcdermott718
@claymcdermott718 3 года назад
deusimperator I'm having trouble reading your comment; I will read it later on another device though.
@Mr.Anglo1095
@Mr.Anglo1095 Год назад
I’m struggling to see the difference between Thomism and Calvinism, at least in some regards. It seems God decides who will and who won’t be damned by giving them grace or not giving them grace. Am I missing something?
@Mr.Anglo1095
@Mr.Anglo1095 Год назад
@@DudeNamedDuncan thanks! I’m actually going to become Catholic, I asked my priest to get confirmed a few weeks ago and Thomism made it all the more easy coming from being reformed. I would have a hard time squaring a libertarian type free-will with Scripture.
@jatnarivas8741
@jatnarivas8741 Месяц назад
Thomism: no double predestination, no belief in total depravation of man. Calvinism: opposite of that.
@brentonstanfield5198
@brentonstanfield5198 2 года назад
As a Reformed Calvinist, I loved the discussion. At about the 12:00 mark the discussion of freedom is so important. In John 8:31-32, there is a reason why Jesus can say that it is the “truth” that sets us free. When we know what is truly good in every circumstance then we will choose it… we will be determined by the truth… and we will be totally free.
@me2143658709
@me2143658709 3 года назад
I think this raised more questions than it answered...
@antoniopioavallone1137
@antoniopioavallone1137 3 года назад
I remember Blaise Pascal made fun of molina and of the jesuits view of grace in his provincial letters, this, together with his simpaties with jansenists I believe are the reasons for why Pascal was never canonized by the Church.
@dantedocerto
@dantedocerto 3 года назад
Wow thanks you both that really helped me
@Marcos-uo4kc
@Marcos-uo4kc 2 года назад
I'm sorry but the response to this 46:35 is extremely disappointing. What greater good could come out of most of humanity ending up in Hell? Their souls are lost forever, they are not going to enjoy any of the "benefits" of their suffering. And to appeal to "God's mysterious ways" in order to adress it seems very problematic. Like, what's the point of apologetics if every religion can use this trick whenever there's any obvious contradiction in their theology?Imagine if I created the most heretical Christian denomination you could ever think of, and whenever people pointed out the contradictions between my teachings and the Bible, I simply said "well, it's certainly a mystery why God decided to add those apparently contradictory verses in the Bible, but I trust in His perfect judgement nonetheless", and it would be as legitimate of a response as the one in the video. Also, it seems weird that God apparently gave us intellects capable of understanding the complex metaphysical status of angels but not able to make the world morally intelligible to us, when the second issue is much, much more important than the first.
@Sean-lv6fx
@Sean-lv6fx 2 года назад
The Council of Trent also deals with the idea of people being predestined to heaven or hell. God gives _everyone_ sufficient grace in order to be saved, so in that sense we are all in a World God created where we can attain salvation. Some people just chose to not cooperate with God's grace of their own free will.
@ryannafziger5158
@ryannafziger5158 3 года назад
Matt gotta get a compressor dialed down on that mic to stop it clipping
@paulgarcia3201
@paulgarcia3201 3 года назад
What video editing software do you use Matt??? Is this a zoom chat?
@JeremyLewisHoff
@JeremyLewisHoff 27 дней назад
Could someone kindly tell me whether I have correctly understood the key differience with how Aquinas understands the resistabillity of grace, contra Augustine? Augustine sees all grace as intrinsically efficacious (or irresistible), since the creaturely will has nothingness as its only independent source. Therefore the only thing that distingishes sufficient grace from efficient grace is the strength of the impulse from God. Aquinas, however, makes a real distinction between the nature of sufficient grace versus intrinsically effectual grace, since, following Aristotle, the creaturely will is actually informed by being, as opposed to the platonic notion that the creature is devoid of the actual substance of being. This means that sufficient grace must be cooperated with by the will (which has actually been informed by grace) in order for it to go from potency to act, thus grounding the responsibillity of the will to act. Augustine, on the other hand, places all the responsibility to act with the will of God alone. Have I understood this correctly?
@Harlow65965
@Harlow65965 2 года назад
Wonderful interview
@theplinkerslodge6361
@theplinkerslodge6361 7 месяцев назад
So what chance does a joe-average guy like me have of believing in or not believing in predestination?
@dwong9289
@dwong9289 6 месяцев назад
Well predestination is Catholic dogma. So if you are Catholic you are bound to believe it under pain of mortal sin and losing salvation.
@theplinkerslodge6361
@theplinkerslodge6361 6 месяцев назад
@@dwong9289 So, what if I am predestined not to believe in predestination?
@dwong9289
@dwong9289 6 месяцев назад
@@theplinkerslodge6361 It's Catholic dogma, and rejection of it is heresy, which when done with full knowledge and consent is a mortal sin. So, if you do so without repenting then you will go to hell
@guypotvin6943
@guypotvin6943 2 года назад
Maybe I missed this. But I wonder. Considering the agony in the garden where Jesus asks for the cup to pass, I do wonder, if God maybe went silent from the last supper forward. Now, I’m not suggesting the divinity of Christ isn’t true. But haven’t we all experienced dryness? I wonder, since, Him and the apostles could have ran to the hinterland, could we not say, his human nature chose to stay. Despite His human desire to avoid the pain? I can’t help thinking there was a very real choice here. Just as Mary chose to bear Christ, Christ in His human nature chose the cross, and that’s where the choice lied.
@jakelivingstone5747
@jakelivingstone5747 3 года назад
Why couldn't the will be moved from potency to act by God's bestowal of the ability to move from potency to act . God is the principle cause and holds all being in existence, but also provides man with a nature. So, why couldn't part of our nature be to operate our will freely?
@jaredwilliams1031
@jaredwilliams1031 3 года назад
Uh, it already is? Do you mean to say ‘freedom’ should be more random?
@mattsigl1426
@mattsigl1426 2 года назад
In a choice with two goods, neither sinful, what is THAT choice determined by? Moral free will and free will tout cort are related but different problems and perspectives on free will. The “scientific debate” on free will focuses on the latter and the religious “salvific” questions of free will on the former. The problem of what determines choices versus what determines “THE CHOICE”. Also, from a middle knowledge perspective it can be said that a world where Christ did not obey the father totally was not feasible whatsoever. But it’s even more extreme than that. There isn’t even a POSSIBLE world where Christ does not obey the Father given the divine/human hypostatic nature of the substance making the choice. God could not even IMAGINE a world where Christ disobeys, he doesn’t even have to “reference” his middle knowledge to know this.
@Fasolislithuan
@Fasolislithuan 3 года назад
I think both positions (thomism & molinism) are legitime within the Catholic Church. The divine Grace works in mysterious ways. I think the molinist position is more atractive and especulative to modern way of thinking but the thomist position is more solid. If we believe that God is free in all his acts the concept of freedom in scholastic (the choosing to a greater good) is more convincent for me that the modern position of choosing between options
@bradwalton3977
@bradwalton3977 Год назад
excellent discussion.
@worldonfire6154
@worldonfire6154 3 года назад
Oh, I think I know what this is a about. In Germany we simply call it the Grace Argument (if we are talking about the same thing - I have to watch the rest of the video first).
@worldonfire6154
@worldonfire6154 3 года назад
Interesting. Apparently, I unknowingly made myself a mixture of Thomism and Molinism (is that the spelling?).
@divinechemechanical
@divinechemechanical 2 года назад
From around the 27 minute mark, how is this not a case of the Molinist moving the goalposts? If God arranges the circumstances such that to put person x in those circumstances is to make certain his salvation, then how does that evade the problem of negating free will? For God created both the person and the specific circumstance in which it was predetermined by God that person x would respond to grace. Adding possible realities or multiverse timelines does not substantially change anything, just throws dust into the air.
@cameronoleary3916
@cameronoleary3916 2 года назад
I kind of wish this was a debate, great video though
@magikarp2063
@magikarp2063 3 года назад
The microphone isn't set up as well as it was on the older setup. Whenever something is loud it sounds really bad and its not good in general.
@alexjoneschannel
@alexjoneschannel 2 года назад
Molinism is the way
@danx4813
@danx4813 2 месяца назад
8:30, 11:38
@rexgloriae316
@rexgloriae316 Год назад
Great talk.
@DryApologist
@DryApologist 3 года назад
I agree that the Thomistic view on conversion is more plausible than the Molinist view as presented, but the Thomistic view does seem to become compatibilist about free will for non-conversions acts. I think a better alternative keeps something like pre-motion for final conversion, but not argue pre-motion for other actions since it infringes too much on free will (in my view).
@a.d1287
@a.d1287 Год назад
What is your position? Are you a molonist?
@DryApologist
@DryApologist Год назад
@@a.d1287 I don't prefer either view. I find them both having difficulties. I think God timelessly knows past, present, and future but not through middle knowledge (Molinism) nor through pre-motion (Banezianism).
@a.d1287
@a.d1287 Год назад
@@DryApologist so you dont have a stance on the matter?
@DryApologist
@DryApologist Год назад
@@a.d1287 I do have a stance. I dont agree with the Molinist or Thomistic perspective. I think they both get aspects correct, but a middle ground position between the two is more plausible, there just isn't a popular label for that position.
@a.d1287
@a.d1287 Год назад
@@DryApologist it sounds like you are a syncratist. Whats your more plausible position?
@rockpaperscissors82
@rockpaperscissors82 3 года назад
As a Calvinist/Presbyterian, I must say that "God forces your will" is a caricature of Calvinism and equally applies to Thomism. The doctrine of "irresistible grace" (better, as RC Sproul wrote, to say "efficacious grace") is the healing and redemption of a broken, sinful will -- allowing it to choose the good/beautiful/true, aka true freedom, not enslavement to sin. Thomists need to stop with the ignorant caricatures of Calvinism. You should have Richard Muller (Calvin Seminary) as a guest.
@rockpaperscissors82
@rockpaperscissors82 3 года назад
This is around the 24 minute mark. It's laughably ignorant of Protestantism. "Heavy dose of grace and no freedom..." blah, blah, blah. This guy knows nothing about the Reformers' views, much less the scholastic fruit with folks like Francis Turretin.
@rockpaperscissors82
@rockpaperscissors82 3 года назад
And around the 31 minute mark, he explains how freedom (for Christ, for God) is not freedom to do evil. It's not freedom of contrary choice, which isn't freedom but enslavement. This is basic Calvinism. It's also basic Thomism. The Dominican dispute with Molina and the Jesuits was parallel with the Calvinist dispute with Arminius and the Remonstrants a few decades later.
@annakimborahpa
@annakimborahpa 2 года назад
So are you in full agreement with this excerpt from John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5? "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. ALL ARE NOT CREATED ON EQUAL TERMS, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
@dblake32
@dblake32 2 года назад
@@annakimborahpa Yes, I agree with that excerpt.
@annakimborahpa
@annakimborahpa 2 года назад
@@dblake32 How about these? 1. The Declaration of Independence, IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. 2. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., at Lincoln Memorial, Washington D.C., August 28, 1963: "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident: THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.'"
@theBestInvertebrate
@theBestInvertebrate 2 года назад
Compatablism is a middle ground between libertarian free will and determinism.
@johnbrion4565
@johnbrion4565 Год назад
Why don’t you link the thomistic institute in the description?
@xUncleA123x
@xUncleA123x 2 года назад
32:09 wouldn't that real change from potential to actual be both God's actualization of the world in which His grace will change xyz's heart and the moment in time and space when God pours out the grace that changes xyz's heart? From what I know, it's not just a domino effect.. God is still active in the world in Molinism
@gingrai00
@gingrai00 Месяц назад
~38:25 WLC does not believe that here are two will’s in Jesus and takes issue with the traditional view espoused by dyothelitism. He believes, and I agree, that two wills results in two persons (Nestorianism). I think that WLC does hold to the view that Jesus was / is impeccable.
@guypotvin6943
@guypotvin6943 2 года назад
Additionally, would the choice of His human nature be more edifying for us? How could He ask us to pick up our crosses, if His human nature hadn’t done it?
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