Miss Nerd Cookies, there is an extended and alternate ending to Dune 1984. Paul turns his back on Thufir, fully aware of the needle/knife. When Thufir sacrifices himself, Paul orders the Freman to carry away 'this noble Atreides warrior' and six of the Fedaykin, the most dangerous warriors on the planet, carry him out. I personally believe that is why Paul did not use the weirding way on Feyd until afterwards. He knew could kill in an instant, but the Emperor and the Landsraad needed to see him take the throne as the Corino's had. Thufir's last lesson learned.
Thufur also failed to even suspect Dr. Yueh’s Imperial Conditioning could be broken and make him a threat to his beloved House Atreides. In a rare moment of emotional attachment and camaraderie Hawat failed to place those closest to Duke Leto as the greatest possible threat. Hawat’s greatest asset tragically became his Achilles Heel. A condition that was exploited by Piter DeVries, an equally cunning yet, methodically diabolical Mentat.
Is it fair to blame that bit on him though? It was thought that Suk conditioning, being the highest level, _couldn't_ be broken. Baron Harkonnen even purposely hides this fact from the Emperor in his report to him, if it were thought possible that imperial conditioning could be broken surely there'd be no need to take that risk.
@@leavesinautumn5959 Even an elementary school child understands anything may be possible and at his level NOTHING should be taken for granted. Thufir was not the sharpest tool in the shed.
@MiniatureMasterClass it doesn't help that there was widespread distrust of bene gesserit and the baron knew that their especially distrusted them so planted false information. The books mentioned that mentats are supposed to know that flaw. It would be interesting if there could be an exploration of his rather extreme distrust of the bene gesserit.
@@MiniatureMasterClass It's one thing to understand that, theoretically at least, anything could be possible. It's something else entirely to expect that anyone could function like that. It's literally impossible. When you wake up in the morning you assume that your bedroom floor is solid, you don't test to see that it. You assume that the water in your shower is a neutral ph and not strongly acidic. You don't test it, you just shower. Were we to always question and test every little thing, when we've been given no reason to doubt, we'd never get anything done. It would take more hours than there are in a day just to get from your bed to your front door.
@@MiniatureMasterClass _"The way to control and direct a mentat, Nefud, is through his information. False information--false results". -Baron Harkonnen, Dune pg 233_
As a huge fan of the books....it always kinda annoyed me how narrative backstory and mental descriptors always made Thufir sound so amazing. But he never really did much. Never really got to "let loose". And he's barely even a side character in the movies. Kinda sad.
I think it speaks to Herbert's vision of greatness. An transhuman, optimal in every way, with one of the greatest human minds in the galaxy, a polymath and unparalleled genius who's greatness was defined in spite of these things, not because of these things. In the end the greatest act of a human computer was to dedicate his life through love, loyalty and honour, which are often not optimal choices in politics. His greatness was as a result of his humanity, not his trans human qualities
@@shekel2356 Hi Shekel, The book showed his ultimate love for the Atreides! Everybody can make a mistake, few get the opportunity to fix it like he did.
The fact the Atreides lasted so long is evidence of his incredible abilities. They just aren't seen by the Reader. The Harkonnens made incredible efforts to assassinate the Atreides and yet had to expend decades of wealth to secure Dune for themselves.
Yeah. I was getting really excited to see what his endgame was for getting revenge on the Harkonnens, as he manipulated Feyd and the Baron, making them believe he was on their side and had the Baron pull support from Rabban on Arrakis....and then thats it. Nothing happens. He meets Paul again and is told to kill him and kills himself instead. Feels like an abandoned plotline. Like Margot Fenring seducing Feyd and such. 2021 movie version didn't do much either.
The name have Arabic origin Thufir : it’s a diversion from an Arabic word meaning victorious Hawat: name still in use it has the meaning of someone who is cleaver and informed Love your videos keep it up
Thufir was one of my favorite characters because his interaction with Leto showed that Leto understood that everyone who is human still has limitations and that he was a good leader because he understood this. His interactions with paul showed that he came to love the family he worked for.
Thufir has always fascinated me - I especially like that Frank Herbert allowed us to see both the amazing gifts and the frailty of the character. Thank you - I enjoy your content so much!
Reading Dune for the first time, I find Hawat a fascinating and frustrating character. He has an unmatched mind, but he's not nearly as understanding of people's emotions as someone like Lady Jessica is. If he'd had that advantage, he'd have seen through the Harkonnen gambit to implicate her. On the other hand, I love how he's playing the Harkonnens in their own home. One gets the impression he's enjoying aggravating their internal divisions.
although I absolutely loved the movie (and it shows that the movie - i.e. the director, loved dune), i am still sad that it did not include more of the ”plans within plans” narrative. and none of the adaptations included what I think is a pivotal and powerful (and easy to film) scene between Thufir and Lady Jessica, wonderfully laid on the page. to me, it was one of the tensest scenes in the book. also, that ”potential betrayal narrative” triggers much more in the story line - see: Gurney Halleck. I am curious how his arc in relation to Jessica`s will be dealt with, considering ”no path has been laid”, to paraphrase the movie :). also, i`m sad that the mentats were treated as an afterthought and a prop in Part 1. but glad you`re explaining them for the non-duneheads :). great content, as always! the biggest possible theater awaits!
I completely agree on all points. Thufir was just another NPC in Part 1. I understand that even with a 4-6 hour, 2-part movie there have to be sacrifices but this one I'm the most disappointed with. Still, Villeneuve's take on Dune is much, much better than what I thought was even possible. Bless the Maker and his water.
I appreciate your use of serious toned intro music on this video (and other videos like this) versus using your usual, more “light hearted” introduction music that starts a lot of the other videos. The music on this one really helps with the heavier topic and is much more effective at setting the mood than the lighter fare music would be. (I’ve been meaning to comment on this for awhile & hopefully my comment makes sense) Thank you & Cheers!
I fell that the Mentat didn't get enough explanation in the film on why their eyes roll into their heads, whereby they're making complicated equations and calculations but they struggle to make simple equations. Therefore missing the little problems and overlooking them as non complicated so it's not worth worrying about but in fact it's the little things that can matter most.
I found Thufir to a bit of a dummy in the book. For someone called a "master of assassins" and a so-called genius spy, he completely fell for the Baron's scheme to blame Jessica (which wasn't very clever in the first place) like a 3-year-old. He then failed to assassinate any of the Harkonens, uncovering their plan with the Emperor and ended up offing himself instead of killing Paul. I was not impressed.
Mentats as well as the rest of the specialist houses/orders/societies with extraordinary abilities are the result of wiping out endless billions of humans and survival of the fittest. It saddens me that we will never know where the story would go if it was written down by master Frank. Love your vids Nerd Cookies.
How do you know that billions of human were wiped out and ‘survival of the fittest’ was a part of what occurred in Frank Herbert Dune universe? I mean, where did you get this information from?
The Mentat use of the sapho juice implies that there are other substances similar to Spice in their geriatric properties, though I don't remember anything else specifically named.
I think my favourite thufir moment is either the desert screen right after the battle. Or the sardukar, / freman, why the emporer turned on house atradies conversation with the baron, I was disappointed the movie changed the raid on the spice stockpiles . Not just leaving it out , but the opposite, the baron ordered the sale of his stockpile and made a killing, no doubt. It diminished Duke leto , thufir the freman who took part.
My favorite scene with Thufir is in the book, Lady Jessica confronts him and tries to convince him that she's no threat to the Duke and that she is loyal to the Atreides. Thufir Is one of my favorite characters. Great Video!
You really do bring entertainment to the world. Thank you. Life wont-wait. If someone's holding you back from going somewhere, go by yourself. Sorry, I had an epiphany in the mountains of Utah while visiting with my mom....lol. If you keep putting things off you'll be planning for a funeral instead of a Vacation. I'm not a hippie now, am I?
Hawat is my favorite character in Dune, and I'm pissed that he was done dirty in the 1984 movie, the 2000 miniseries and again relegated to a very minor role in the latest movie.
I love every aspect of this series of books but Dune the first book will always be my favorite, the rich charecters and deep and intracate plots within plots was mezerizing to me as a kid when i read rhem the first Time Hawatt was one of my all time favorites because i was fascinated by mentats. The room of mirrors is an amazing lart of the story i dont think has ever been captured in any screen adeptation. Also very intersting that a mentat should not know they are being trained as a mentats in order for training to work..
Thufir was in the books I remember reading, was described as sinewy. As I understand the term, that would make him very thin. Every version of him on screen, has been fat. Oh well.
Safire Halfwit: Mantan and Chief Character Assassin. His function is to nod knowingly and, by maintaining an attitude of measured agreement, stay out of trouble.
The new movie didn't portray enough of Hawat's attachment to the Atreides family. I would have loved more intrigue like in the books where they suspect a traitor among them, but never suspected Yueh. A shame.
A long time ago I did think.. did Thufir end up being responsible for the calamity on Arrakis beyond him not being able to catch a spy? And the answer is a resounding yes. His schemes ultimately led the house into significant loss & ruin. He was a walking miscalculation of epic proportions. You are right, he was the Master of Assassins. His calculations technically assassinated his own house and his beloved duke. Not something to rely upon or hold in such high regard now is it. Now where have I heard that trope before.
Well, at the end of the day. It's both him and the duke working together to call the shots. They both underestimated their enemy. They had to because of the plot. Unless they were somehow bringing a massive army with a massive fleet to defend them. They were always going to be fucked in the end. They should have played it smarter.
It really is a bloody shame that he was completely edited out of Part 2. But this isn't the first time. I still remember how the SyFy miniseries completely disrespected his character.
I just want to say one thing: I really like this trend of taking on-set, or on-screen, stills from the series or film that you're discussing and running them through one of those.... I don't know what they're called.... "paint over the photo" software programs? It gives them a unique look rather than just looking like they were freshly pulled from Google Images and stuck right into the video. I can dig it.
@@NerdCookies agreed. My older brother tried very hard when we were teenagers to get me into the Dune Saga, as I had read quite a bit of sci-fi up to that point. I've read even more sci-fi and fantasy in the years since, but I just now recently finally gave Dune a chance. I'm in love with the universe. Keep up the high-quality Dune coverage!
I really feel like his character was vastly underused in the new Dune movie. Even the 1984 film gave the character more to do. In fact, in the David Lynch version, a very poignant and key moment for that character was cut from the final theatrical version. It's where Thurfir offers his life to the new emperor Paul because he had let him down. Paul refuses and the mentat takes his own life. Paul then instructs his Fremen warriors to guve his body all honors. It's quite an emotional scene and you can find it on RU-vid. As far the new movie goes, my suspicion is that director Denis Villeneuve intentionally played down the character of the Mentat, and Guild Navigators, because both posses more masculine traits. He wanted to highlight the feminine aspects of the novel as exemplified by the Bene Gesserit, Jessica, and Chani. 1:23
Thufir underestimated Baron Harkonnen because his analytics were grounded in rational thought, and the Baron's hatred of House Atreides was irrational.
Didn't Thufer's plan to destroy the Harkonen spice hoards on Geidi Prime come about 'after' the Harkonen attempt on Pauls life on Arakis but before the fall of House Areides? That being the case, the motivation or added prescribed benefit for the Harkonen need to replenish spice resulting in their deeper oppression of the Fremen and driving them to side with Paul and Jessica does'nt make sense as Thufer didn't know that House 'Atreidies would fall that that point.
Here is hoping after the dune messiah film. We get a series of series covering the children of dune. And the god emperor. With Denis Villeneuve doing the outlines.
It's a big even huge disappointment that he was killed or whatever in the new movie . Verrry stark contrast to the old movie in which was still alive up to the moment Paul finally confronts the Emperor . He's totally absent in the new one the second part
Denis kind of squandered Thufir in Dune 1, by not having him do much. Having him white out his eyes to do a which accounting problem didn't really establish the character much. Hopefully we get to see what he can really do in Dune 2.
Mentat’s were a result of breeding, training, and spice exposure for generations, right? So why is it someone can be trained to be a mental? Shouldn’t it be only be hereditary?
It seemed that only a small segment of humans was genetically capable of benefiting from the intense mentat training. In the same way football players are there product of a lifetime of fearsome training. They spend a couple decades lifting weights, building endurance, and learning techniques. And even then, a tiny percentage of the population as good enough to go professional. Genetics are necessary and rare, but by themselves, they aren't enough.
