Thunderer But I'm Not Allowed Use HE 

i feel you man. especially with that kremlin salvo. We tried training rooms, looked up the "supposedly" ap pen of ships on wowsft and then tried penning. So e.g. taking a NC park it flat broadside, check the armor, then take your alaska and move to the range on wich it should still have enough pen to get in the citadel. And it just shatters. There is some sort of hidden mechanic or the calculation is just buggy. Yes, the shells come in at an angle. But the results were really rediculous. We did manage to get shatters where we had over 100mm more pen, than the target had armor. Even calculated on wich impact angle that would make sense and ended up wiht values around 65degree impact angle, and we were working on like 15 degree impact angle according to wowsft. Its just absolutely not comprehensible for the player to understand why he did not get a pen at certain moments. wich is kind of a bummer. I can understand dispersion as RNG factor. But i can see if i hit correctly. I can understand turtlebacks etc. But i can look up and know wich target have turtlebacks. But this pen-mechanic is absolutely intransparent and leads to frustration when you hold your shot, fire at the right time, aim correctly, get the correct hits and then get shatters even though you theoretically had plenty enough penetration.... And then ppl spam HE because it just works "as intended" For your case of 5 shatters: On 12.8km thunderer supposedly has 606mm of AP-pen. You did hit above water, at least some of the shells, and lets assume you hit the 430mm armor not the 410. Your angle was 56 negative according to navigator mod. So we have 430mm armor, hit at 34degree angle, resulting in 518mm way through the armor. Thats still almost 100mm of extra pen. Even if we now take the vertical impact angle into account, wich is supposedly 10 degrees, and even if we add in another 10 degrees because the side of kremlin is not perfectly vertical, we end up with an effective armor thickness of 550mm. Still like 60mm spare more than you need. and it shatters. i cant fkin understand it

I had some Thunderer battles that I used no more than one HE salvo and those was good battles. Nobody expects AP Thunderer ;)

I honestly use AP about 60% time I play Thunderer , HE is great , but at start of game you will get a loot ships that go broadside , so I start with AP , I load HE after few my good scores in to citadel , ships start to kite and bb to tank , HE is great then . (BTW I got my Thunderer & Smolensk at same time , I saved steel to get Burgugone , but I use it with coal combo to get those two ships , and I have no regrets :) , and i got Burgugone bit later , only ships that i regret I did not got was Summers & Småland )

6:13 It's not that Kremlin armor belt is too thick, it's mainly due to how its citadel is angled against incoming shell that really makes it so difficult to citadel at medium to long distance. Ships like Stalingrad and Petro have no problems citadeling a Kremlin at 12km because those ships have improved pen angles and near flat ballistics. There was a game where Flamu just sat still on a Slava while broadside against a yamato class firing at it at long range, no matter what that yamato does he can't citadel the Slava.

This is how I would love the Thunderer to be. Accurate, hard hitting AP, good manuverability and concealment, and maybe an improved heal to make up for the lack of HE. Just a tiny change to make of of the most hated ships in the game really amazing!😊

With the 22 second reload time, it does fine with AP. The HE for this ship is of course great but the main USP for me is that BC dispersion and crazy 18 inch 22 second reload.

This ship shines with the Expert Loader skill. Being able to quickly switch from AP to HE and HE to AP is fantastic. There was one time I was pushing a Yamato that was stubbornly bow-on to me, a salvo or two of HE and I got him upset enough for him to use his back turret. But little did he know that when he started turning to unmask the 3rd turret, I quickly switched to AP. It was the funniest 80% to 0 HP Yamato I've faced. And he raged at me all game in the chat. This was back when Thunderer was just released.

Remember tovarisch, Kremlin not only has too thick armour belt, it has too think Stalinium armour belt, meaning shots that should pen will shatter

That salvo on the kremlin hit too much water and then the armor belt. The water takes away all your armor penetration power so thats pretty much why.

My all time DMG record is 355k in the Thunderer. It was an AP only game. If I fired some HE at the end could have been a 400k+ game but I really tried AP only. Cheers!

always great videos, I thank you for that

Thunderer and Pommern are my favorite BB's. Pommern because it's just a hoot, and Thunderer because its accuracy is good. It's not that Thunderer's accuracy is awesome, it's just that most other BB's have SHIT accuracy. Only the hight tier US BB's can get to that level with the slot 6 accuracy mod, and I do love playing Iowa as well. I do use HE on Thunderer - annihilated a Smolensk the other day ;) - but only on angled BB's. Scoring with AP is SO satisfying, and you can dev strike cruisers from any angle. I've said from the beginning that I would still love Thunderer if it was AP only, but really, I think most BB's need an accuracy buff. They should not be shotguns, you only get to shoot once every 30 seconds or so, and it's just so frustrating to see your shots go everywhere but where you aimed them. So Thunderer to me is the BB's battleship, the way they all should be. It's been nerfed more than enough. The other BB's just need a buff. :D

Meanwhile Petro citadels Kremlin like knife thru the butter

The reason that the Kremlin is able to avoid so much pen damage is due to its bottom belt armour scheme. The Kremlin actually has a gigantic citadel which extends to the outside of its bottom belt; it is the bottom belt. What this means is that you have ~450mm of armour there waiting for you. Since citadels are rare and pen damage is also a huge part of broadside shorts, when you aim low on the Kremlin at long ranges (>10km), you will get little pen damage due to its thick armour belt and you’re restricted to citadel damage only. When a battleship is even a tiny bit angled, usually you get the damage from pen, so essentially you’re going to get almost no damage when aiming at a 30 degree Kremlin’s bottom belt.

Hey bud, where can I get that display of your ship vs the target ship's orientation in the center of the screen, looks helpfull?

I have been consisten citadeling kremlin in my izumo from pretty long range. The thing is because it had a angle broadside armor you need a flat trejactory ap like izumo or slava to hit her cit.

I am the one who r "AP Main Thunderer" guy and its really good indeed I would use more HE when if British Special Commanders had 75% of Gun Feeder Skill like US does, but British doesn't so I generally use AP on first shot even when its HE time (cause it takes 13 seconds to switch to HE from AP) And u know what? its still good XD Once I killed Full HP GK with just a 3 Salvo of AP from Thunderer He later give me compliment not being a HE Thunderer lol

6:17 Laughing in Shikishima sounds

When it comes to broadside smashers I immediately think of Montana and Vermont.

Can you tell me the strongest DD AA in tiers V and VI inc. Prems?

That annoying shot may have been because all of the shots are sub-surface hits (looks like they all splash water), where the shells lose a lot of their penetration to water. One of the big advantages of Kremlin is that the already thiccccc belt (430 mm under the turrets) extends so far down into the water. Had that been a Montana, you would probably have several cits, since Monty's lower belt is thinner (don't remember exact thickness), and a Yamato too, because of the 350mm cheek weakness. All that being said, though, I sometimes wonder about the Kremlin's broadsie armor. It's not supposed to be _that_ much stronger than a Yamato, but I feel like it is at times.

How would you compare the Ohio ap and consistency? I’ve found it to be really good for my play style but that’s closer in - full secondary build there

I like and respect players who use AP on their British BBs. It takes skill to aim them and a little bit of luck to get those money shots. What I despise with a passion of a thousand suns are those.... individuals that load and fire only HE. All you need to do is mainly aim and click. Then boom; instant fire and about 6k+ damage. Your experiences may vary of course. Anyways, going on about the HE spammers, I've seen replays of them using only HE and getting some insane numbers of fires and damage. At this point, I simply brush those results off because they got the damage and the fires extremely easily. I can remember being in one match in particular where a Thunderer set me on fire 9 times, some of which were double fires. And so, my hatred and overall dislike for British BBs and the average player is deep. However, like I said; I respect those that can actually switch ammo types instead of choosing the easy option.

Funnily enough, I got a Kraken using AP only with Thunderer .It was a while back before the nerf though

Looking forward to Incomparable xd

I had a game where my JB got 7 ricochets and a non-pen from a slightly angled buffalo. The only thing I think about while, I carried that game and broke my personal dmg record.

Yamato vs Thunderer dispersion, whose is superior?

PQ 2021: Thunderer But I'm Not Allowed Use HE first suggestion to the right: How To Play Thunderer Without HE. PQ 2020 =D btw afaik the more accurate Guns are the more you can miss/bounce Shots cause every slight hickup in WG Code is gonna tuck you up xD

Since the thunderer range nerv, i found ohio dispersion to be much closer to thunderer then before. Idk if this is just me, but i like to play ohio more recently then thunderer. Its much more tanky as well.

6:28 Assuming you hit flat broadside (a sort of good assumption) at 12.3 km you have 620 mm of penetration (quite exactly). The impact angle (from the armor normal) is around 10°, armor angle was 60°. According to the video you hit the 430 mm part. So, the armor value you hit was a = 430/cos(30) = ~500 mm. 10° of impact angle won't do much... we can rule out the insufficiency of armor pen. But then there is the auto bounce... I have said you hit him at roughly 60°. The truth is you hit him at 57ish°meaning you are 3° within the auto bounce (45-60°) angle... and within that, it is a dice roll. The answer to "what the hell just happened"? *Auto bounce roll RNG.* And this is why the AP feels so... weird. EDIT: as pointed below, it could not have been autobounce. I am confuzzled.

I do agree with you, that they should NEVER remove a great ship from availability. To a new player it feels like elitism. If you are a new player, you'll be facing a dozen ships that are better than anything you can get, and piloted by players who have been here longer so are better than you. If anything, maybe BS ships should be only usable by players with less than a 50% win rate...;-) Why not even up the balance that way? ;-) Anyhow, I get cranky anytime someone uses a BS ship against me that I cannot get.

I can see why you got the 5 non pens on the kremlin tho. I agree that it's armour seems a bit too tough but if you look at the angle kf the kremlin in relation to yours on the minimap you can see that he has quite a decent angle on him. He only turns full broadside in the follow up shot where you hit him for 17k. At tier 10 it's sometimes hard to see how broadside someone is because of the size of the ship

Theres so many DDs and cruisers who's playstyle is HE spam I *HATE* that some BBs have that as well. I roll my eyes when I get lit up by a thunderer/conq...

Kremlin with leg mod is my fave AP ship

Overmatch is a fascinating mechanic. Since it's a game and not a real world simulation they need to have a mechanic where no matter how "thick" a piece of armor can get based on an angle, it is essentially useless against high caliber rounds. The thing is that it does not actually really consider penetration values. If they relied solely on penetration rather than autobounce the game would be different but we would still need to angle. As for shells dropping in the water... that's my life as a potato. I get so frustrated that I can aim mid ship and the shells will drop right next to it. HE... HE has been messing with my brain for ages. I understand its place, but I do not like how it is implemented. The whole, it can penetrate (do damage) to the armor no matter the angel, while shells that are specific to piercing armor need a special angle. Still, it is a counter play for many ships that would not be there considering how AP is implemented.

when i play with krem, get consistently cidadel by a petro at 12km when i get stuck on island... And thund cant at 11km

Me, a British BB player that never uses HE:

AP is a dice roll of a shot against all ships except cruisers where it’s 95% chance you will just over pen a full broadside cruiser now a days

Maybe it's the bug of shooting over the islands that flamu talks about

Thunderer don't come with british short AP fuse time. So it is better againts other BB compare to conqueror. Fast reloading gun will make quick work of anything dare to showing it's side

You want a consistent AP ship? Try the T8 Italian piece of crap. Broadside Atago at 10km - 5 overpens. About a minute later, D7P broadside at 12km - 5 overpens. D7P comes around the other way and I wait for the broadside - 3 overpens. It doesn't get more consistent than that.

the thunderer is more accurate than yamato and Vermont ?

Is it me, or when they nerfed the range on the Thunderer, did it affect the vertical dispersion?

As someone that's been playing warships for going on 6 years now who also struggles to break 51% lol the broadside no cits baffles me at times as well..o7...from --K--

NC is the answer for me to that question...

that is what it should be like i hate that when it happens to me with Yamatoi

Interestingly, Vanguard's AP is actually fairly consistent. I just wish it had the high pen

Would’ve been more challenging with conqueror. Is like driving 2 gks worth of hp with the same amount of guns but less pen and armor

6:25 Haha angled cidatel armor Russian bias go brr

A very nice game still... but I understand that ONE salvo getting you tilted. I never seem to get that lucky when I'm in Krem, position poorly... get bitch slapped for my stupidity lol...

I consider "Emergency repair expert" a waste of 4 captain points since you will always get a Cunningham witherer every match you play which grants you this skill for free. Better to put them into something more useful.

Do U really want ships with consistent guns? All ships with Slavas accuracy? Imagin game play then...

Massachusetts is my favorite AP BB. I don't think I ever use HE on it.

If Thunderer had superheal instead of broken British HE, that would be a better ship for me.

yeah I know the feeling. AP should be more about where you shoot and not about RNG. RNG hates me. I have had matches with my friends and they are like wtf is going on with your rounds. They even said where did you shot. I would said waterline and my round landed around the ship not 1 hit. Or I will get 1 overpen on a full boardside ship. I just say I'm used to it.

Instantly the cancer is gone!

I’ve been suggesting release stats Thunderer with only AP. It wouldn’t change a thing about my playstyle and she’d still be very strong. WG pls giff new bote.

Everytime I play the thunderer, ships give me broadside and i'm forced to go with AP, which thunderer does great. HE on thunderer isn't that big of a deal, mostly because only noobs will use only-HE on it. So really, it gives no-skill-noobs a noob-friendly ship to learn from. But they do less damage than a good player in thunderer or any ship, because of not using AP. This is why Thunderer is important to the game, no more need for nerfs. And really, we have pleanty of other things to complain about before thunderer. Once CVs and Subs are balanced, then we can start looking at ships like thunderer which are way less impactfull.

Finally a worthy opponent and not yet another HE/fire spamming peasant.

I have it but I rarely play it. It's such a boring ship to me. I'm so regretting not taking Georgia instead of Thunderer.

IMO the American 457 mm are plenty better than the brittish ones. Thunderer ap is just far to much roll of a dice.

Imagine using Marceau But only using Ap.

When I get a new ship, one of the first things that I do is play one battle with just HE and one battle using just AP. That way I can get a feel of the total offensive capabilities of the ship.

I use AP all the time in it

Thunderer No HE Challenge? Hmm

Nice video 👍 There´s no reason for a BB to use HE except: - shooting at a DD - shooting at a sub - shooting at a cruiser with really thin plating where AP create Overpens - shooting at a bow-in BB with soviet bias front plating like Kremlin This is my BB playstyle from tier 3 - 10. Sure, the AP mechanics are between broken and just funny. But if you know where the weakspots of other BB´s and cruisers are, you can hit them hard with AP. But sometimes HE is better, like the situation with my Nelson against Atlanta. I was on AP only when i realised this Atlanta will come broadside to me. Because Atlanta has very weak armor, i loaded HE. He expected AP from me with overpens only, but as he watched my HE salvo incoming... in his own words: "it scared the shit out of me". He got a devstrike with some cits on 7 km distance. HE with its very high fire chance is really broken on british BB´s. High pen, high splash damage, high fire chance. Most players just don´t know how good the AP on this BB´s is, they stay on HE and keep wondering why they lose battles "i did so much damage and lost, why?" Thunderer is ok for me, because she has weak armor for such a big BB. Showing a little too much side and she eats heavy damage. Like Georgia, she suffers from weak armor, too. This is the price to pay for the god-like main guns.

I used to average 10 matches per day but now it's about three. There's too many mechanics in the game that are either wonky or flat out broken. I've had matches where the AP shatters or bounces even on cruisers. Matches where I hit a stern-on DD 12-14km away with a German BB only to bracket a near broadside BB at 6km moments later. Matches where I take out a HE spammer, with fire flags, and get 1-2 fires in 150+ HE hits ... most of them hitting the superstructure. Or how about ships in clear line of sight randomly going dark immediately after firing at me? Add to all of this the elements in the game that the majority of players hate it's a wonder I play at all anymore. I am convinced that Russians are convinced that "frustrating" is synonymous to "challenging". Really, the best fun I have is when I division up with clan mates. The game then becomes more of a back drop to giving each other shit and generally joking around.

U dont play anyships often

Love how people think Kremlin is not good anymore after nerfs but this thing still SHATTERS AP at 10km flat broadside that would citadel Yamato at 20km with ease. People tend to be so dumb its not even funny. Though gonna admit that Subs counter Kremlin more than any other BB even more than German pushing ones since they at least have hydro . Kremlin not much of sniper after all.

I don't think AP needs a buff, just drastically nerf the damage performance of HE. HE should be more of a "support" weapon, for example, maybe remove the damage fires cause, and replace it with a debuff effect it has on ships that are on fire. They already have a spotting debuff applied, so just continue with that concept. AP is for Damage, HE is for support. hahahaha why am I wasting my time typing this out I'm an idiot

You clearly misaimed the 3:40 salvo, that is why the shells missed. That one was not on the ship. You aimed below the Kremlin and 5 out of 8 shells went too low. The 6th hit the island. 7 and 8 were your "pity-hits".

It is even more sad that people like you motivated Wargaming to nerf them while they continue to unleash aircraft carriers and subs that battleships don;'t deal with very well

One word…Lenin.

"Thunderer but I'm not allowed to use HE" So basically like any other 457mm main battery BB then? Since you're going to be using AP way more often than not? ;P

Gotta say it again . With all the griefing crap WG has added and is adding to the game . I am not about to feel guilty using Thunderer with HE or Smolensk or Musashi for that matter . Too damd many game ruining CV's and now subs with superships coming soon to let it bother me in the least to use what some consider to be OP if I can maybe grief a griefer .

I quit when I realized WoWS had slowly changed into WoRNG

"Thundered but I'm not allowed to use HE" How is that a challenge?

HE is the only way to counter BBs and DDs. I dont see how an experieced player can say or imply that HE is in any form bad for the game.

i just take out the iowa or nc to see those cits

Thunderer AP is way more garbage than you would expect. Pretty sure it's intentional so players will eventually give up on AP and use HE only.

This game is not balance at all. Try playing the zao or yoshino. Most tier 10 cruisers destroy these ships.

"Weak Broadside" Kremlin. Yeah right. The abuse of mechanics to make weaknesses not being that its just so annoying and toxic.

Thunderer AP is shit btw. I enjoy Republique AP much and much more

russian bias.... time to dump this game, also had to many of these against russian ships...