Time and the WWV (

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Albert, N3XEI, lives in North Carolina and he sometimes listens to WWV but he can hear WWVH before he hears WWV. Why is this? Aren't they suppose to be synced to the same accurate time?
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8 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 121

@patwhens 2 года назад

How appropriate that episode 555 would be about “time”.

@tmatheson54 2 года назад

Now that is classic. Ha. The good old NE 555 timer! The clock is ticking Dude.

@damonkj7e 2 года назад

I'm sure there is no coincidence.

@timmack2415 2 года назад

Great observation! I didn't notice that.

@davecasler 2 года назад

It is indeed a coincidence though a happy one!

@daveN2MXX 2 года назад

This should win comment of the year!

@eddy2561 2 года назад

Anyone old enuff to remember The Chicago Transit Authority group and their song: "Does anybody really know what time it is" ......Well now we know. Tnx Dave! /k6sdw

@johnvogel7313 8 месяцев назад

WWV/H is what turned me on to amateur radio :) We went on vacation at a home in Lake of the Ozarks that had a shortwave receiver. I was fascinated by all the sounds and the fact that the signal could be heard all over.

@robertschulz4326 2 года назад

And remember that you can use it to check your radio's accuracy. Run a waterfall software. Tune to your radio displayed frequency. Tune USB. Observe the tone frequency of the ticks. Swap to LSB and note the frequency. Line up both to the same frequency so they are the same on both USB and LSB and note your displayed frequency. See if your radio is off. (WWV on 10MHz is in AM and on exactly 10MHz. Though they call it double sideband.)

@ki4mox989 2 года назад

I might add to the person who asked the question. I live in Florida and so I mostly hear Colorado, but I use Hawaii as a propagation tool. If I hear Hawaii and depending on the strength I have an idea on propagation around that frequency.

@JoeGilson1 2 года назад

Love that there is a pendulum clock on the wall behind Dave during this video on time.

@DellFargus 2 года назад

Same here, but that crooked lamp is making me bananas.

@gonebamboo4116 2 года назад

Yes, but likely a quartz base running off a C batt. Hard to find a true mechanical time piece

@davecasler 2 года назад

The clock on the wall is indeed entirely mechanical. I'm happy if it's correct to two or three minutes. My station GPS clock, on the other hand, is accurate to maybe a couple milliseconds. Sorry about the lamp. I tilt it over to get its light on my desk.

@James_Knott Год назад

I used to work for a telecom that was owned by a railroad. We had a pendulum clock that had mercury filled cylinders on the pendulum. This was so the weight could be precisely adjusted.

@Shastasays 2 года назад

Truly facinating, Dave. Totally a fun segment.

@richardcallihan9746 2 года назад

I heard or read that WWV is also used to calibrate oscilloscopes for example, ( with some kind of extra equipment or receiving capabilities) For companies, etc that need to have their equipment calibrated, usually once or twice a year. As a Mechanical Inspector in California my calipers, micrometers, surface plate, jo blocks, pin gauges, etc, etc, etc, had to be calibrated yearly. And have the up-to-date sticker on all of them. The Co. President would set up a time for me to take them to a mobile calibration lab that was set up at a large company in their parking lot. I think it was Hewlett-Packard. The lab was meticulously leveled, with precise temperature, relative humidity, double doors, and so on. Our o scopes were shipped to Techtronic's. Having lapsed calibration was not a good thing if perhaps you were audited by a customer or in our case also the FDA since we were rebuilding Medical Linear Accelerators.

@richardcallihan9746 2 года назад

Dave as a side note we had a gentleman that would come in if needed to tune our waveguides. He literally had a briefcase full of spherical-ended punches and he would gently tap on the original tuning dent of the cavity or cavities which there were many, that were out of tune while looking at a spectrum analyzer. I think the frequency was 2.998 GHz

@marshallvanwagneriii1495 2 года назад

A very interesting video! Thank you!!!

@phildurall7466 2 года назад

Nice coverage OG! They are also experimenting with 25 Mhz. currently as well. I think they are only using 2.5 kW.

@lyfandeth 2 года назад

And of course, UTC/Zulu time never has "daylight saving" changes. I love it more every year.

@ejmills991 2 года назад

To this day I've never heard WWV on HF. Being in Europe Its probably swamped by the time signals from MSF in the UK and RWM in Russia. I worked for the Greenwich Observatory at their telescopes on La Palma (in the Canary Islands) and was responsible for looking after the time service. When I came here in 1986, we used the VLF OMEGA transmissions (now obsolete) to calibrate (i.e. remove any drift) of the free running 10Mhz oscillators in the observatory digital clocks. Although the crystals were in an oven, they would still drift over time due to crystal ageing. To calibrate the UTC time, we used the RWM time signal on 14.996MHz from Moscow. We allowed for an offset of 18mS due to the travel time. In the early 1990's we acquired a GPS receiver and used that to syncronize UTC to the remote clocks. One being at each telescope. That had a rubidium oscillator fitted to keep the time ticking over when no satellites were in view. At that time there wasn't the full 24/7 coverage as there is now. Occasionally a satellite would drop below the horizion and we needed three satellites to phase lock the rubidum oscillator. UT1 corrects for the effect of small movements of the Earth relative to the axis of rotation (polar variation) and believe UT2 also adds in smaller corrections due to the Earth's molton core and ocean currents. It is these which are gradually causing the Earth to slow down. If UT1+UT2 show an error of more than 0.5 secs compares to TAI then a 'leap second' is added on either the 30th June or the 31st of Deember at midnight. All this is now decided by the IERS (international Earth Rotation Service) in Paris. A lot has changed since I retired and most of this is now done down over the Internet using NTP time servers. They're good for a few milliseconds +/- of UTC, but not as good as directly from GPS due to latency over the networks. 73's John (EA8) /G4STA

@davecasler 2 года назад

John, thanks for the history. Interesting. My station clock is based on a kit from QRP Labs, and is synchronized to GPS receiver. I would say that it's within a few milliseconds because the GPS receiver just as an output once every second.

@ejmills991 2 года назад

@@davecasler HI Dave, yes or maybe even better.Certainly than these NTP servers which all have some latency. Back in the mid 1970's, "Wireless World" published a design for an RC (radio code) clock which used a fast code transmitted on the 59th second from the MSF 60KHz time signal transmitter in the UK. I ordered a set of PCB's and put it together. It used the 74 series of logic chips and 7 segment LED displays. The antenna was a ferrite rod fitted with a 'long wave' coil with a 1,500pf cap across it to bring down the frequency to 60KHz. It worked fine... Well, that was until MSF dropped the fast code to a slow code where the hrs:mins:secs data was spread out over the first 30 seconds. Using the pulse length of each second tone to determine the data bit value. So my RC clock (which I still have btw) became obsolete over night :(

@ShawnBonnett Год назад

There is a faction of personages that believe that the speed of light in the universe is actually slowing - they claim that the "slowing" has been occurring up until the use of atomic clocks, when the "slowing" stopped or, at least the measuring of the speed of light "slowing" stopped - that be because the speed of light is related to atomic movement. Perhaps this quandary is leading to the need to actually remove a leap-second versus adding a leap-second. Such an interesting subject! Thank you for your explanation.

@rsluggy6485 2 года назад

Your enthusiasm for this subject is infectious!

@morgidvmw0mdv 2 года назад

That was great David. I really enjoyed it. Dave M. MW0MDV across the pond here in Wales, it's 22:22

@OC35 2 года назад

In the 60s I worked at a NASA satellite tracking station at WInkfield UK. This was before we had an atomic clock. There was a team from NASA that flew around the world to each tracking station. They carried an HP atomic clock to check the stations' clocks. We had a WWV receiver and its output was recorded on one of the 7 tracks of the telemetry tapes we recorded. G8DPH

@davecasler 2 года назад

Cool! Interesting history.

@OC35 2 года назад

@@davecasler The team also carried calibration standards and calibrated our test gear!

@rumproast2000 2 года назад

Thanks for the video, Dave. Me being nit-picky: The NIST 60kHz station callsign is WWVB. So technically, there are three stations under the WWV "umbrella".

@BusDriverRFI 2 года назад

But if you don't count the third one, there's only 2 callsigns.

@rumproast2000 2 года назад

I'm not sure what you mean. Dave said that there are two call signs (WWV and WWVH) for the time stations that NIST operates, and he mentions that one of them is on 60kHz. I was simply mentioning the fact that technically the call sign of the 60kHz station is WWVB.

@BusDriverRFI 2 года назад

@@rumproast2000 yeah. He mentioned WWVB by frequency and not by callsign. Not sure if he realizes that or not or that WWVB is strictly time code.

@rumproast2000 2 года назад

@@BusDriverRFI It was probably just a mistake. Dave is pretty thorough.

@BusDriverRFI 2 года назад

@@rumproast2000 Dave is long winded. Not really thorough.

@genealamos9888 2 года назад

great content. we used wwv for local sync of timing systems in remote missile tracking stations 60-70s era of sensor mount auto track , when look points shared between systems(milliseconds count!).. and recording data to be sent up range..our local chief tech would add coded bits in the control format area within IRIG B code.. that indicated our station number..agree timing is a unique field..

@davecasler 2 года назад

Wow! I haven't heard of IRIG format in years

@charlesgantz5865 2 года назад

One other thing to point out is that there is a difference between a clock and the time, even though they tend to be used interchangeably. A clock is the ticks (or tocks, pick one) for us old timers that remember when we could hear our watches. The time is what we read off our watch. For engineers, who might have many instruments, such as signal generators, spectrum analyzers, etc., connected together, synchronizing all these instruments is extremely imports. That is why WWV broadcast 2.5, 5, 10, 15, and 20 MHz signals, which are frequencies used by test instruments for clock inputs. And it is important to have the time synchronized to the clock, or the clock synchronized to the time, to be able to record accurately when events occur. It's also great to be able to set my watch. Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, it sounds like NIST wants to do away with WWV/WWVH/WWVB. They recommended defunding in 2019. The funding was put back in, but I wouldn't be surprised to see another defunding request in the future.

@BusDriverRFI 2 года назад

I had a seminar once with Dr. Dave Allan. Great guy. I worked with Dr. James A. Barnes. We did some designs together.

@raulcrudele1 2 года назад

Excellent information! How a seemingly boring topic becomes interesting, 73!

@NipkowDisk 2 года назад

I wish WWV would have an "oldies special" for a few weeks or so, where they would transmit time and frequency standards in their earlier formats. For example, the old NASA 36-bit time code which was broadcast from 1961 to 1971. Unfortunately, it would probably wreak havoc something fierce with the scientific community!!!

@ProperLogicalDebate 2 года назад

Eventually there will be a time standard that doesn't change over centuries for space navigation, not just in the Solar System but for Interplanetary travel.

@manoffaith2501 2 года назад

We are in the end times my friend. There will never be interplanetary travel. There will be travel to Heaven or Hell only. Where will you be going?

@davecasler 2 года назад

Unfortunately, because of special relativity, time depends upon the observer's location and speed. No two people see things at the same time, because it takes a finite amount of time for light to travel to different people's eyes. Fortunately on earth it's not much.

@ProperLogicalDebate 2 года назад

@@davecasler Eventually can and in this case will take a very long time.

@James_Knott Год назад

Stardate?

@thed8229 2 года назад

Woah. Prior I had no idea there was so much going on. Gonna have my kiddos watch this too! Thanks Dave.

@timbacchus 2 года назад

Took a tour of it about twenty years ago. Used it many times to keep my station on frequency. WWVH in Hawaii I sometimes wobble on my axes

@normkirk65 2 года назад

Another excellent episode Dave ! Thank you ! I've always been fascinated with the electro/mechanical measurement of time and especially WWV and CHU. Been listening to them for over 40 years ! ( not continuously lol ). WWV is almost musical sounding !

@davecasler 2 года назад

Glad you enjoyed it

@lindawolffkashmir2768 Год назад

Listen long enough, and that tick gets in your head, lol. Actually, if you listen closely, you can tell when it hits the :30 mark from the sound. If there’s a tone, it stops at the :45 mark.

@michaelquinones-lx6ks 3 месяца назад

Canada can pick up WWV anyway they might as well scrap CHU and replace it WWV.

@davidsradioroom9678 2 года назад

Thanks for the information. It was very "timely".

@michaelmarcus2318 2 года назад

While WWV broadcasts on the specified frequency with a very high accuracy much less than 1 Hz, the signal received on the HF frequencies have been reflected by ionospheric layers. These layers are not fixed in space and hence they induce a Doppler shift on the signal reached your antenna. This results in the received signal's apparent frequency "wandering" by a few tenths of a Hz. This is not easy to see with normal consumer equipment but is quite real.

@richranchernot 2 года назад

Fascinating discussion! Thanks for sharing!

@davecasler 2 года назад

Thanks!

@ggggg4030 2 года назад

“Does anybody really know what time it is?” Song by Chicago

@charliebrown7588 2 года назад

Thanks Dave. I took a (US Power Squadron) Celestial Navigation course which deals extensively with time. Very informative.

@davecasler 2 года назад

Maybe someday I'll do a video on the so-called longitude problem. It was a huge problem for sailing ships before accurate clocks were invented. The story is interesting enough to fill a book. As it happens I have that book on my shelf. I'll have to take it down and re-familiarize myself with it.

@James_Knott Год назад

@@davecasler It was also covered by PBS Nova a few years ago.

@jonathancotner7040 2 года назад

Banking transactions are done via an EDI protocol, the date and time are written in the files. The date and time they are processed is a different story and is dependant on the bank.

@rickn501s 2 года назад

Nice job explaining time, Dave. Thanks!

@inspector1794 2 года назад

Very enjoyable Glad I had the time to watch.

@michaeledmonds3027 2 года назад

Excellent Dave.....thanks!

@kelvin0mql 2 года назад

Finally at 16:40 we get THE answer to THE question. They arrange it like that on purpose for clarity. I knew most of this all along, 'cuz I'm just that sort of curious oddball that would read the entirety of a Wikipedia article, for example. A related point: With AM, it's possible to intelligibly hear multiple signals on the same frequency, which is not as true for some other phone modes. This is why VHF AIR transceivers are AM and not FM. You've heard "a double" on an FM 2m repeater - often you get no intelligible syllables, just noise. But "a double" on AM (e.g. CB or VHF AIR), there's a good chance you can pick out at least some of the words. Even though you can hear both voices, the WWVH announces first, then WWV announces, to reduce confusion. But you hear the ticks, beeps, tones, pulses from both, if you're receiving both.

@VK5KU 2 года назад

Brilliant, just brilliant!

@timothystockman7533 27 дней назад

I am surprised you did not mention W3HCF, David L. Mills, the inventor of NTP. As of 2024, Dave is a silent key.

@tommycheshire5508 2 года назад

Very interesting. I enjoyed this presentation.

@RealMesaMike 2 года назад

"WWV, The Tick. All time, all the time!"

@lowpowerlarry9957 2 года назад

Great content as usual. Please take care of your health.

@TheOnePhillip 2 года назад

I love listening to that station! I'd listen to the atomic clock all day if I could but I live in New York and there is way way too much interference to pick it up on any of the frequencies.

@timbacchus 2 года назад

And TV stations must keep exact time so that all the commercials are on all channels at the same time....

@davecasler 2 года назад

Yes, and it's really annoying when they are not. When were watching the evening news, sometimes the local station gets the time wrong in so you get a very brief glimpse of the national commercial before the local commercial goes on. You'd think in this day and age they could get that right!

@James_Knott Год назад

@@davecasler Many years ago, I worked in Northern Ontario, where some towns received only the CBC network feed. They'd get nothing in the time slots for commercials.

@rangersmith4652 2 года назад

So if you ever thought, "What time is it?" was a simple question...not so much. During my three years living in Belgium, I was amused by a practice I observed in train stations many times. The second the train came to a halt, I could see people adjusting their watches, clearly believing the train's arrival was a good time hack. That was over a decade ago, and I suspect it's no longer a thing, but it was fascinating to watch.

@philippelewis3543 2 года назад

Well this episode number is right on time for ic’s! ⏰

@lbwl 2 года назад

That was so interesting . I Learned a lot,

@wd9dau 2 года назад

Had a fellow Ham put up a uhf repeater with a 5 mhz split. Unfortunately he was close to Fort Collins! Bad idea!

@ve6hdh992 2 года назад

congrats on your upcoming award for 100k viewers.

@michaelquinones-lx6ks 3 месяца назад

There was a fourth station called WWVL before it was phased out in 1972 what did WWVL stand for?

@billmallman5780 2 года назад

Thanks Dave, quite interesting. Bill Mallman - AB4P

@lyfandeth 2 года назад

To get *accurate* GPS time, the GPS first needs to run for 17 minutes after it has found a position. This is because an ephemeris update message is broadcast on the system only once per 17 minutes. GPS also takes into account leap seconds, I think, so it may differ with sources. Then there is atmospheric distortion and propogation, especially in stormy weather. If you have DGPS, that's differential GPS which uses an extra ground station on the east and west coasts to correct for atmospherics. In Colorado, you can't get that correction. Sounds like you've had lots of experience with this rabbit hole! But all in all, the miracle is that the dog speaks, right?

@James_Knott Год назад

A few points: You didn't mention International Atomic Time is based on the average of hundreds of atomic clocks around the world. You can thank Sanford Fleming, a Canadian engineer, for time zones. Several years ago, I worked for a major telecom and we used LORAN C as a time base for synchronizing the digital network. This was before GPS was available. The NIST has a book about time that can be downloaded for free from them. Other sources may charge for it. It's called "From Sundials to Atomic Clocks". These days we have accurate time on our computers, thanks to Network Time Protocol (NTP), which is traceable back to International Atomic Time. You can use some GPS receivers to create your own stratum 1 NTP server. Many of these things are covered by Wikipedia.

@BruceNitroxpro 2 года назад

USUALLY, allmost everyone I know refers questions about electronics to Marco Eps or Paul Carlson... LOL but no more. We know that YOU are a time guru. ROFL de KQ2E

@paulhastings3109 2 года назад

Pat I have to agree that 555 Great content

@DalePalmer 2 года назад

Ironically, a 555 is a timer chip!

@Mike-H_UK 2 года назад

Apparently the best selling chip ever made. It beats the humble 741 because the op-amp market is split between a number of competing parts.

@n8sot 2 года назад

Great show Dave!!!!!!! 73 N8SOT

@randallwalker1897 2 года назад

Having worked as a USCG RM I used to have to set my clock every time I came on watch. WWVH is located on the HI island of Kauai at the Barking Sands Military base. I actually got to see her! A big let down! 😂😂 Randy K7NOJ

@ericrobertson5130 2 года назад

Very interesting! Enjoyed it! 73 Eric W5MWM

@paul.alarner6410 Год назад

is that the wwv clock on the wall behind you?

@JayKnight 2 года назад

I love this stuff, what books do you recommend on this? If you haven't, check out Longitude by Dava Sobel.

@davecasler 2 года назад

Check out www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division. They have everything there from children's level to PhD level. It's an amazing resource. You will surely find things of great interest there.

@DeltaXray444 2 года назад

Earth rotation time in relation to the sun is 23h 56m 4s..

@davecasler 2 года назад

This sidereal day you mention is the time required for one complete revolution of the earth. However during that period, the earth has moved relative to the sun, and must rotate a bit more to be pointed back at the sun. The latter is the. That we call one day, 24 hours by definition. Although, if we use the solar day, each day is slightly different in duration due to the earth precessing about its axis, meaning the earth wobbles a bit. Greenwich mean Time averages these. UTC time is atomic time, adjusted to be within one second of astronomical time.

@garyblackerby3226 2 года назад

Ok, so when someone comes up to you and asks ‘what time is it’ You say…. Watch this video, Just kidding…. George Carlin had a quip about someone who asked for the time and he said, “now or when you just asked me?”

@marks2254 2 года назад

Much of the time I cannot hear either station and I can almost never make out the voice portion of the transmissions. How much power do these stations transmit with? I read 50,000 watts but it seems like I’d be able to hear them well if you that were the case. I’m in the middle of California and usually try to hear on 15 MHz during the day.

@davecasler 2 года назад

No, the power is much less than that. A few kilowatts maximum.

@anonhollmuller4032 2 года назад

thx!! i have a question...may you will and can aswer. can i read somwere all time corrections, since this was established? thank you soo much for you work!! and please excuse my poor english;) best 73, dg2r?

@davecasler 2 года назад

You can look at the NIST time and frequency website. www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division. There's an awful lot of stuff there, so it may be hard to find.

@anonhollmuller4032 2 года назад

@@davecasler i thank you soo much!! you helped me verry much in the past and now:) best thx 73 and a long healthy and peaceful live !

@capheind 2 года назад

Is OGgie just a term for amateur radio folks? Got my license 12 years ago on a whim but just started getting into it.

@almightyEsquilax 2 года назад

It's part of Dave's call sign.

@capheind 2 года назад

@@almightyEsquilax gotcha. So he just calls his fans that because of his suffix. Thank you.

@capheind 2 года назад

Also love the screen name.

@J3715 2 года назад

But dave doesn't the USN always need their own system? lol Thanks for the video.

@davecasler 2 года назад

Yeah, they think they're special. In fact military time is kept by the US Naval Observatory near Washington DC. In fact, GPS time is military time given that GPS is a military system. However WW V and the US Naval Observatory worked very hard to keep in sync. As far as I know the United States is the only country with two time systems.

@paulhastings3109 2 года назад

How's your plane coming along

@davecasler 2 года назад

The airplane is hangared, and is not being actively flown at the moment. I hope to restart flying before very long.

@OctavMandru Год назад

Hams like to talk. Only a few have the privilege to say such interesting things

@Larry4098 2 года назад

WWVB @ 60 kHz?

@davecasler 2 года назад

Yes.

@buckeye5704 2 года назад

Maine is on Eastern time, not Maritime.

@James_Knott Год назад

The Maritime provinces in Canada, which do not include Newfoundland, are on Atlantic time. Newfoundland is a half hour ahead, in it's own time zone. Trivia: Newfoundland is 3.5 hours from London, England, but 4.5 from Vancouver BC, at the other end of the country.