Team Tom!! What happened on the other guy that was on this channel with you for a few years?? Sorry I’ve been gone from This channel for a while and haven’t heard anything. Good to be back listening and learning the lore
Team Tom all the way! His power seems to dwarf Sauron when we meet him. That being said, Sauron with the Ring and legions of Orcs would over take Tom in the end.
Tom! He is important symbolically, showing the ring is not all-powerful and thus not as frightful as the hobbits thought. His mysteriousness, including his interaction with the Ring, are intriguing and excite interest and curiosity. Sauron's just another corrupt Maiar. Big whoop.
More likely I think it didn’t interest Tom. He wouldn’t have forgotten but he just didn’t care. Tom didn’t seem really interested in what was going on with the world. He might have known but it didn’t affect his world
The chapter about the hobbits‘ visit with Bombadil mentions that they find him surprisingly knowledgeable about the goings-on of the wider world - he knows much about their families, and evidently has had dealings with Elves. He‘s very curious in their conversations, and the hobbits eventually get so comfortable, and his questions are so “cunning“, that they start revealing more about their secrets than they‘d expected. And then the briefest of hints from Tolkien - “there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders“, meaning the Black Riders, all that the hobbits knew of the Nazgûl at the time. Tolkien reveals only a little, but I think the message is clear that Tom is very much aware of the world around him, including the Nazgûl, presumably Sauron as well.
Tom Bombadil, as enigmatic as he is, may not be so enigmatic. Morgoth couldn't create life, so he had to corrupt what was created by Eru. So, if we look at Myron (probably misspelled), and his transition into Sauron, what did Morgoth do to him. What if Tom Bombadil is what remains of Morgoth's corruption of the being we know as Sauron. Perhaps, he, literally, split the good and evil parts of Myron, and, in one hand, we have Sauron and, in the other hand we have Tom Bombadil.
There is a theory i love. Music is so strong in tolkiens lore. If luthien could waltz into morgoths chambers and put them all to sleep, i think the same happens with a bombadil sauron fight. Tom comes skipping out and sings a Song that puts sauron to sleep forever and buries sauron and goes skipping on his merry way.
Tom represents self-mastery while Sauron represents the ability to control and dominate others. So I doubt there would ever be a scenario in which Tom and Sauron confronted one another - it is Sauron's nature to hide behind his pawns. But if they DID meet, I believe they'd be pretty evenly matched. Which is why Sauron would never allow that kind of confrontation to occur.
I've often thought that Tom Bombadil and Goldberry represent a type of manifestation of "Father Time" and "Mother Nature" Bombadil may have been an inevitable creation brought into existence upon the invention of the world. His power is passive, the One Ring does not affect him because time will oulast everything. Sauron is imortal, but The One Ring is not... If for no other reason than it is a tangible, artifact of the physical world. If Bombadil is Father Time, it explains why he is unconcerned about power, domination and victory. By his very nature, he understands these things are fleeting and therefore unimportant.
I think you're on the right lines. Tom Bombadil is so, so far above and beyond any of that. A "Bombadil interferes not in the petty struggles and concerns of others, whether those of god or mortal, for they are beneath him and all life is fleeting," kind of thing.
I always thought of Tom Bombadil as “eldest and fatherless” meaning he is a part of Eru. A small portion of him put in place in his creation. Just my thoughts
I've thought the same thing. Tom either is Eru in disguise, happy to see his plans coming to fruition before his eyes, or he's a part of him in some way.
@@metalten3129Eru was timeless. He saw the whole of time and creation as we’d see a tapestry hanging on the wall. not caring if it was the first or last thread of the tapestry only seeing it as a whole
I have a feeling that if they were to have given Tom the One Ring, Sauron could just walk up and ask for his ring back and Tom would be like sure here ya go.
I think it's possible that Sauron never noticed Tom, just as he never noticed the hobbits. Tom doesn't have enough ambition, isn't concerned enough with domination and conquest, to come onto Sauron's radar. His territory would just seem to him elvish or something like that. He probably wouldn't be inclined to go there, since it's unknown and has nothing to offer that is valuable to him. It's not as if Tom would go out of his way to make Sauron's acquaintance.
Obviously it's impossible to say for sure (a trail of enigma ever follows in Bombadil's wake) but of all possible answers on whether or not Sauron knew of Tom, I think your theory to be the one with which Tolkien would most likely agree. It's just more...Tolkien than the rest.
Much of Tolkien’s writings is manifest from his Catholic background and theology. Coming from this background myself, I believe Tom is included as a reference and contrast only… in the manner of saying you don’t know how dark something is until you have seen the light, we need Tom to show us the importance of other things by comparing them to himself. Biblically there is a brief appearance of a man named Melchizedek (Genesis 14). We’re only told that he had no beginning and no end and he was a “priest of God” literally hundreds of years before the priesthood was established. Who was he? How was he a priest? he just was. Later in the New Testament, Jesus is described as a “priest of the order of Melchizedek”, meaning he had no beginning, no end, he simply exists forever as a priest between man and God. The only reason Melchizedek is included is so he can help us understand something else by comparison. The similarities between Melchizedek and Tom are too close to be coincidence for a writer like JRRT, I’m surprised there isn’t more mention of this correlation.
Lets not forget that Sauron was defeated 3 times in the Second Age while he had the One Ring and was at the height of his powers. 1) The Numenorean Expeditionary Force easily kicked him out of Eriador in 1700; 2) The 2nd NEF made his army flee without a fight in 3261, forcing Sauron to surrender to King Ar-Pharazon; 3) The Last Alliance of Elves and Men conquered Mordor, and Sauron was slain by Gil-galad and Elendil. Sauron was far from invincible. Tom would hold his own.
Good Morning! As soon as I saw the title for this I got excited. This is a fascinating subject. Some facts and questions that occur to me before I even begin watching this are, firstly Tom Bombadil put on the ring and it did not turn him invisible. Sauron, a Maia, does not turn invisible when wearing his ring. He was never described as being invisible when he wore the ring in the Battle of the Last Alliance, Gil-Galad and Elendil saw him plainly to engage and battle, and his fallen body was visible after his defeat and Isuldur did not need to seek his remains out to find and cut off the finger wearing the ring. From this, it can be inferred that the ring would not confer invisibility had it been put on by either Gandalf or Saruman. It also bears out that Tom Bombadil is an immortal and spiritual being, of at least Maia power level. However the final word of canon remains in Tolkien's published letters on the subject. He has clearly stated that "In all works of literature there must be enigmas, things even the author does not know" I didn't research the verbatim comment, but this is it in essence. It will never be for us as readers to truly know the nature of Tom Bombadil. He is to be guessed at, thought and speculated about, but that is about it. Now I am going to pour myself a cup of coffee and enjoy the video :)
@@MrDazzlerdarren Coffee is more an acquired taste for me than a tool. I tend to wake up very alert if I have had a good night's sleep. I only need coffee when my hobbies have kept me up tinkering all night.
I think I heard somewhere that invisibility is not what the ring is supposed to do, it's what it does for lesser beings that aren't capable of unleashing & controlling its true power. So presumably, if Gandalf or Saruman wore the ring, they wouldn't turn invisible & would be able to use most of its power seeing as they're Maiar same as Sauron. I don't think other Maiar would be able to use 100% of its power as it's bound to Sauron, but I don't remember ever hearing what its actual power is so this is highly speculative.
The way you are able to turn our ideas and scripts into an emotional throughline and lend the moments of pathos and beauty with a voice which is truly kind. Thanks for continuing to share Professor Tolkien's lessons to readers, fans of film and of letters. This man is the kindliest bossman on the internet and the second nicest in the UK. Get 'em James!
Excuse me being so profundly specific but isn't it called a Genius Loci? I recently read the Peter-Grant novels by Ben Aaronovitch and there it is written with an i in between. Or is that freedom of the writer?
I've always seen Tom as something like Ungoliant. An embodiment as Ungoiant was an embodiment of the void. And saying he's fartherless to me means he was inadvertently created when the living world was created. He was an embodiment that came into being at the same time as the world itself. And as long as something living exists so will he. Which is why he is the first and the last.
The ring was to bind Sauron closer to Middle-Earth. To bring Sauron into the land. Bombadil already was part of the land - a force of nature already. Sauron would surely be envious of Tom. Edit: the rings of power have nothing to do with Middle-Earth, with the beloved works of Tolkien whatsoever. It's not even on the same level as terrible fan fiction. Besides that, you should know that BetterHelp as a sponsor is bad. Really bad.
My guess is that Sauron would pay him little mind. He was certainly aware of him. He had servants placed within Tom's realm by his own lieutenant (the barrow wights were sent there by the witch king). I don't think he'd see Tom as a threat though, at least not one of the more pressing ones. I think that, if Sauron were to accomplish his goal of total domination, Tom would simply leave and return to wherever he came from rather than lingering in a middle earth that no longer suited his carefree existence.
Theory: Tom Bombadil is a spiritual image that appears as a reflection of the vision of harmony in music during the performance of the Music of the Ainur, and is a nature spirit that comes into existence simultaneously with Arda as a result of Eru realizing this vision with the Secret Fire. The One Ring is a melody that serves the dissonance in music. This dialectical situation provides neutralization in the harmony-discord conflict. For this reason, there is no interaction between Tom Bombadil and the One Ring. Tom has no weaknesses that can be manipulated by the One Ring. It is closed to being agitated. This is one aspect of why he is not affected by the One Ring, or why the One Ring cannot affect him. It is possible that Sauron and Tom Bombadil know each other, but they do not care about each other.
My fear with having Tom Bombadil in "The Rings of Power" is that the writers will do everything in their power to emasculate Old Tom and glorify Galadriel over him as if she's the Girl Boss Goddess of Middle Earth.
@@michaelhurlbut4830 reasonable fear imo, I was worried about the girl boss crap in season one, and with the exception of that cranky broad from Numenor, i think it wasn’t too bad
Maybe Tolkien's message with Tom is that all begins are Good, until corrupt. And Tom is simply the embodiment of what it is like to be uncorruptible, and the simplistic beauty in that. The truest form of it. If all are born or initially created uncorrupt, it would be the first trait or characteristic of ones self. The oldest of traits. Fatherless... you could say. Nature holds a certain beauty until it becomes corrupt in one form or another. His realm and power being nature- Almost an ignorance to corruptibility... What you have when someone is inherently good... IDK. Its 3am. Just a thought lol
There's something vaguely Buddhist about Tom - his indifference reads as no attachment, purely living in the moment only, which means he cannot suffer, which means the ring/sauron have no power over him.
@@tranism There's nothing vague about it. He's clearly an enlightened being. "The ring" holds no power over him. Aka he is free from desire/attachment/craving etc.
Tom’s mastery is over nature itself, the primordial forces that all things rely upon: including the things Sauron himself relies upon. I think maybe we’re underestimating his potential.
RoP isn't Tolkien in any shape, way or form. It's as much Tolkien as the Scream 3 film is. The only difference is, Scream 3 didn't pretend to be Tolkien.
I’m almost 100% sure with Tolkiens religious background that Tom Bombadil is actually Eru Illuvitar in a bodily form. It would explain his why he’s unaffected by the ring, he chooses to stay in a “garden of Eden” and he doesn’t intervene unless absolutely necessary like the sinking of Numenor and giving Gollum a little shove into Mt.Doom. He says he fatherless. The only possible type of being it could be would be Eru Illuvitar.
To answer your question, am kind of anxious about Tom in rings of power. There is so much you can do wrong. If they somehow try to demystify or “explain” him, I’m out
I care as much for the Rings of Power, as our beloved Tom cares about the happenings in the Gondor. Hell, I even named my Gandalf style pipe "Bombadil"!
Gandalf says that ultimately, Tom would succumb to Sauron when all else is gone. I therefore think that Sauron and Tom could potentially meet in many different circumstances. For example, Sauron might visit Tom in visions and try to corrupt him when Tom is out and about in the old forest. Or else Tom might end up as Sauron's prisoner in Dol Guldar. Tom might be a challenge for Sauron to defeat, but sauron would eventually get the better of him, if Gandalf is to be believed.
In the Iliad, Achilles had an encounter with a river creature, that was the spirit or embodiment of the river, so I got the feel that TB was the same sort of thing.
Here's my take after decades of reading biographies & The History of Middle-earth. Tom Bombadil was a doll Tolkien's children had when they were kids. He told them stories about his adventures. He wrote two poems about him in 1916, revised & published in The Tolkien Reader. The doll ended up on a bookshelf behind Tolkien's desk. When the hobbits first left The Shire, he wanted them to have an adventure, but nothing too serious. He knew Bombadil, Old Man Willow & the Barrow Wight quite well from the poems & stories, so he decided to use it. Tom's words about being eldest & remembering the first acorn & the first raindrop & everything are because the doll sat behind Tolkien & watched him write everything about Arda & it's history, going all the way back to The Lost Tales. Tom Bombadil is an enigma & the ring has no power over him because he's not a part of Arda. He comes from a completely different place. He existed before Arda. Just my opinion, but I my biggest question now is, what ever happened to that doll. It looked exactly as Tom is described in the poems & FotR. Does one of Tolkien's grandchildren or great-grand children have it? I'd like to see pictures.
Tom Bombadil represents nature sauron, on the other hand represents industrialism. Tolkien always felt like industrial inventions were taking over nature when he was growing up.
Did Tom and Sauron know each other? The biggest evidence is the statement from Tom "Before the Dark Lord Came from outside" Even if Tom's talking about Melkor/Morgoth (and not Sauron) Tom's definitely indirectly aware of Morgoth's choosing a 2nd in command b/c Sauron outranked Balrogs, and anything a Dark Lord does is bad news
What (if any) relationship did Tom Bombadil have with Radagast? Gandalf was sent to rally men and elves against Sauron. Could Radagast have been a back-up plan, never used, to draw in Tom Bombadil’s support?
Morgoth’s overarching intention was to destroy Middle Earth, coveting the power of creation that Eru Ilúvatar possessed, he became bitter once he was denied that power and then denied dominion over Arda and thus wanted only it’s utter destruction. Sauron on the other hand did not actually want to destroy Middle Earth whatsoever. He desired dominion over the lives therein but most of all, harkening back to when he was known as Mairon. He was the mightiest Maia of the Vala, Aulë the Smith, and what he desired most, through his craft and works was to create order from chaos. This followed him once he became twisted into Sauron but his vision of what order was, became equally as twisted. I think had he been given the chance to retrieve Morgoth from the outer reaches of the world, he would not want to do so in the least. So destruction was not his motivation.
Know? No. Tom is a product of the music of creation. He has existed since the world began, but not before the world, so he is younger than the Valar. Spending his whole life in Middle Earth, I dont see any interactions between him and Sauron happening. There just isnt a reason for them to overlap. Are they aware of each other? Maybe yes. Bombadil will be aware of Sauron and his shenanigans to some degree he does speak with people occasionally besides his wife. Sauron may or may not know about Bombadil. He could have witnessed his creation, watched him in Middle Earth in the past, who knows. What is certain is that even if Sauron knows, he would probably avoid Bombadil as he could not overpower him or manipulate him.
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I [Gandalf] think not. I think that, in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, last as he was first." I'll defer to Mithrandir on that one.
@@johnpotts8308 A nicely-placed quote and it has me thinking; but - Gandalf has been wrong before. Turned out he was wrong even about his direct superior. Gandalf is wise and savvy, no two ways about it. I also acknowledge that Tolkien uses Gandalf as a lore and authorial perspective conduit fairly often. But Tolkien himself fights shy and implies even he doesn't know the truth about Bombadil. Which, by extension, applies also to Gandalf.
I think Tom Bombadil is the very first sentient creation of the music - before the elves. I believe he knew Melkor. After that dark experience, he withdrew to his own world and an existence which was completely the opposite of everything Melkor/Morgoth stood for. I have no evidence, but this is what I believe.
I have no idea where you got the idea of Sauron being about corruption. Yes, those who serve him are often corrupt as serving him is a path to power. But Sauron is about order. Everything in its place. It's a totalitarian mindset under his vision. And while corruption often happens in the wake of totalitarianism, I doubt Sauron would tolerate any corruption - especially when it interferes with his vision of order.
Sauron and Bombadil would randomly meet and hang out on the break smoking pipes and talking bollocks and never really seriously noting or understanding their fundamental differences because they had that chemistry going.
Tom Bombadil is a positive resonance created by the disharmony of Melkor in the music of the Ainur. Being as Melkor was the greatest of the Ainur and Bombadil was the result of that disharmony, Bombadil would be very powerful, more than a Maia. Ungoliant was the opposite resonance to Tom Bombadil. That's my theory anyway. Consider it if you wish.
This just occurred to me: Tolkien was a deeply religious man. Perhaps he was thinking of Tom Bombadil as a Jesus figure. Could it be that Tom Bombadil was an aspect of Illuvatar, present on Middle Earth simultaneous to Eru being in heaven? And while Jesus was crucified by man, showing vulnerability in his earthly incarnation, surely Tom Bombadil had vulnerabilities, as Gandalf surmised, that if Sauron got the ring, his victory would be complete, and Tom Bombadil would be the last to fall. Does this sound like it has any merit?
No, Tommy B was not an aspect nor avatar of Eru. Tolkien himself answered that question in one of the letters. He is not a god incarnate, nor he is a messiah. He does not save the world, does not sacrifice himself nor does he has any sort of quest or mission. You can debate why he is there at all, one of more accurate (IMO) options is that he is a reminder that peacefull life in harmony with nature is quite a good way of achieving joy in life.
@@mszalans4817 I was unaware of the letter that had addressed this. That certainly debunks my idea. I see the sense of it though, he never tried to impart any message to the denizens of Middle Earth. The opinion you refer to is a very nice sounding idea, but then again, Tom was so reclusive how many people could have benefited from seeing him as an example?
People for years have tried to pin Tom Bombadil's character archetype ("he's ___ type of figure"). I think there isn't an archetype in existence to pin Tom to. He just is as he is.
I haven’t got to watch the video yet but I’m going to come back add to my thoughts. Im excited to see how ROP does his character and the reaction of ppl who know nothing of his character. I feel like Sauron knew of Tom B. and knew of how he went along and like w/ Shelobs’ mother and her he let him be but kept eyes on him, I feel Tom B knew of Sauron but seen it as a non concern since the races of middle earth would not allow such evil to be unchecked, Mr. B also has other things that need his tending to and evil overlords aren’t his to meddle with.
I'm sure Sauron knows all about Iarwain Ben-adar, and finds him completely inexplicable. And of course Bombadil knows all about Mairon, and would find his corruption ridiculous if its results weren't so tragic. Did they ever meet in person? Who can say? Probably what we think of as silly rhymes twists Sauron's brain into knots.
In a world of heavy darkness and powerful dread, the feeling to the reader is there's something like a power or a reality that's beyond all of the dread, a safety for the Hobbits so absolute, that the embodiment of that power can laugh and sing about everything, because he is, almost inconceivably, completely exempt from any of the dread felt by the Hobbits and the rest of the world. As old as the world itself, a projection of the world. Even Sauron needs the World as a place to have a realm, so he can't ever really defeat Tom. But Tom, as the perspective of the natural World is isn't concerned with being part of the drama of the 'good and evil' playing out upon it's surface. He provides a complete contrast to the heavy pervasiveness of the struggle going on in the world, almost surrealistically takes the reader outside of the epic saga of the story of the world Tolkien so effectively creates
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@Bkrp-bl4wb they sold selling private and personal mental health data to Facebook, as well as advertisers. (The first rule of therapy is that it is protected data, not to be shared with others, and certainly not for commercial gain.)
I wonder if there are other enigmatic characters in Tolkien's world that through the conceit that the what we readers know is told through the eyes of elves or hobbits, powerful beings in the south an east may exist perhaps secretly and be unknown to our heroes. Indeed if Tom lived elsewhere, the hobbits would not have met him, and he not have been mentioned during Elrond's council. The Ents weren't mentioned until we arrived in their forest, the dead men until Aragorn needed their aid, and the Druedain until the Rohirrim rode to Gondor.
If Sauron entered the Old Forest then Tom would be in control yet if Tom entered Mordor then Sauron is going to be the Boss. I know it's a simple answer but there you go.
Tom seems to be an essential part of the creation of the world "eldest and fatherless"...no one came before him and no one created him. He just IS. Very likely part of the essence of Ilivutar imbued into the world. Therefore no one could unmake him, save one. However this does not mean he has any real power over the larger world, and certain shows no ambition to such things.
I think Tom looks at the Ring, Sauron and all that like how we would look at pieces on a chessboard…except it’s someone else playing and he’s not into chess at all and doesn’t understand it because he’s too big for the game. To him it’s like rooting for one toenail to grow faster than your pinkie nail on your left hand or your pancreas over your a kidney.
I don't! The joy and beauty of the enigma that is Tom Bombadil is largely because we just don't know. I'll take Tolkien's deftness and understatement over a Yoda Bombadil and Darth Sauron fight, any day (though Yoda vs Sidious works for Star Wars; LotR, of course, isn't Star Wars).
i have other question: is there any reason why people are afraid of nazguls for other reason then them being ghosts or why they are being taken excessivly serious? i mean in actual practical sense at least in movies they did not seem to be more powerful then regular orcs and witch king was roughly only as powerful as orc captain when it comes to actual practical sense except for reason that they can respawn...i mean when it comes to actual time to perform none of the good guys that they fight against seems to strugle against them to the exclusive degree(not based on theoretical powers or rumors that goes about them) objectivly speaking lurtz achieved just as much as witch king and yeah, i know argument that supposedly they can`t be hurt by none magical weapons,but the fact that regular fire works on them like they been bathing in gasoline evens it out lmao
Ignore this man, get paid *Let me help you guys out. This person has no good reason to tell him to avoid BetterHelp. If there were a reason, you'd already know about it. There is no "gossip" here folks
When Bombadil saves the hobbits from the barrow wites, there is no real fight as Tom scatters them with only a song. This echos the God of Middle Earth (Eru), who creates all through song; as well as the Christian conception of God, who creates all through Word. Tom might not win a fight with Sauron, but his power is such that he has no need to fight and could likely just sing evil away.
