Tomas Björkman: "Metamodernism and The Future" | The Great Simplification #48 

Chronically under listened to podcast. Full of great guests. 1st point of call for me these days.

Another gem, thank you Nate! I listened to this a total of three times while working in the garden. As of late I have been obsessively pondering: "How will we author a galvanizing narrative for the whole world?" I am of the impression that any such narrative will need to incorporate pre-enlightenment aesthetics. Said narrative is our best hope in escaping the "value vacuum" as Bjorkman puts it. I am writing an essay regarding this topic at the moment. It's always reassuring to hear thinkers who are WAY smarter than me delving into similar territory. It suggests my compass MAY be pointing in a useful direction (famous last words ;) .

I participated in a group therapy course 30 years ago that covered everything and more of what has been discussed here. It was an amalgamation of many varied mainly somatic processes that developed the integration of energetic core belief systems into healthier empathetic responses toward past trauma and initiated a presentness in the now. The fundamental idea of our awareness evolving from trans-egoic into witness consciousness was developed and explored through many subtle and highly transformative techniques that I still feel benefit from today. The downside is, however, and this contradicts what Tomas was saying, the clarity of this fresh new awareness in many ways alienates the individual from something that feels like 97% of the population. Most people don't like what they don't understand and the resistance to change compounds this as well. The benefits far outweigh this though and to really be in the world and feel connected to all things at all times is such joy.

Thank you Tomas for enlightening me on what Metamodernism is. As always, great podcast Nate. Many thanks.

Fascinating interview. Bjorkman lays out four eras or stages in worldviews: religious; Enlightenment or modernism; post-modernism; and metamodernism. These track closely to James Fowler's stages of faith/worldview: Mythic Literal; Synthetic-Conventional; Individuative-Reflective; Conjunctive. Fowler's structure is built on Kohlberg with some Erickson thrown in there too. The correspondence between these two theories of development, one societal and one individual, is quite striking. Fowler also attempted a society-wide theory of moral development.

I will know we are on our way when ‘Metamodern’ becomes ‘Metta-modern’. Nevertheless I love this episode. It’s deeply reassuring to see hope in action, and it wings me back to the several months I spent at Findhorn, decades ago. Co-creation in those hope-filled times was what we practiced. It’s good to see this practice becoming a bit more mainstream. However. A huge part of me, the part that has been severely awakened to the reality of spiritual bypassing and bright-siding juxtaposed against humanity’s massive , massive shadow wonders if humans are capable of waking up and maturing in time. It’s not looking good.

1:01:55 - Inner development & inner growth. Specifically the connection between inner growth & cultural evolution & societal evolution 1:02:56 - How to ensure inner-reliance & forsake Outer-dependence

Very interesting. Coherent and fruitful thoughts, thank you!

I live as frugally as I am able. I am in the minority. Most of my coworkers are driving Pickup trucks and SUVs with empty cargo areas and would become hostile if I suggested they drive a small car.

David Suzuki i believe has hit the key element for the transition, asking the Native Americans to share with us their perspective - it's the sense of alienation or the disconnect from nature that is the core missing element in any solutions worth consideration. I find y really heard to put this into words, since it's a perspective, an emotion, or an awareness or intuition of being fundementally interdependent and intertwined with nature that I'm not separate from but everything outside me is inside me, we exchange the air the water, everything within our biosphere.... And i don't know if this is a spiritual, mental/rational or cultural belief or awareness or whatever, but i know if we all had a awareness of this and it was sacred, that we could challenge the idea that the economy and the need to make money is above all other considerations.... We would recognise that we need to find what we all agree on and start from this position...does anyone honestly disagree that we don't need clean air, clean water, clean soil etc... Then how do we organise a society based on these agreements? I think this is where developing the humility to ask the Native Americans their opinions and ask for their views on solutions might shift us in the right direction....

I have a rule in my life. It refers to wants and needs. If I NEED it, I get it. If I want it, 99% of the time, I don’t need it and I don’t bother wasting my money on it.

It is good to see people with a background in the finance and investment sectors talking about this topic, primarily to shift the minds of the deeply indoctrinated majority of the population in industrialised society. However, to catalyse the simplifying transformation and cultural evolution, we consciously need to centre marginalised perspectives and acknowledge that these perspectives are often far richer and offer more valuable wisdom than anything industrialised “civilisation” has to offer. In particular it is of utmost importance not to delude ourselves that an “improved” implementation of the religion of the invisible hand of the market is going to be one of the most important parts of the transformation. We must learn to be genuinely humble, to fully recognise our cognitive limitations, and to be comfortable to play a part in an evolutionary process that is far beyond human individual and human collective control - and that at the same time allows us to co-create ecologies of care that celebrate living systems that extend to all living creatures, far beyond human needs. One conceptual multi perspective framework and meta language system to catalyse cultural evolution that has been applied to many contexts over the last 20 years is what I refer to as evolutionary design jornbettin.com/2021/08/15/evolutionary-design/. Related research initiatives: autcollab.org/projects/research/ - there are many more initiatives that I am not personally involved in that will be added to the list in the coming months. The key take away for those who are committed to inner work and cultural evolution is that some of the most relevant work is being done lies completely outside the perspectives that are covered by the established institutions of academia, industry, and government.

Another interesting conversation. Great insight into where the modern Scandinavian mentality got its start.

Most people don't prepare for their own future, let alone humanities' future.

Thank❤🌹🙏 you, Thomas and Nate! Education🎓 is everything, so is social maturity😢😊

This is really good. Thanks!

What an advanced conversation ... I learned soooo much, thank you. The exploration of post modernism to metamodernism was fascinating... And framing the challenge as a social evolution and contextualised with historical precedent of religions as the original social innovation but an old one and that we just need to take the next step is eye opening....

This was great, Nate! Thank you and thank you Tomas!

Individual greed has been the fundamental well-spring of all historic atrocities. In the contemporary world that corrosive force is accumulating in to fewer and fewer hands, into ever-growing accretions of immense wealth at the expense of everything else. Power, decision-making, and even rationality itself are victims of that blind greed. The concept of the "common good" has become an anachronism to the detriment of the entire human enterprise.

It seems to me that what your guest is discussing in very elaborate ways is the simple concept of the "common good", the well-being of the whole. American Government has strayed so far from that pursuit that it is extremely difficult to imagine that it will EVER see the light and revert to its founding principles. At least not in time to make a difference.

Another gem, thanks Nate...

Oh boy! Time for my simplification fix! Thanks Dr. Nate!

Hi so very good im alive to be part of this narrative, thank you Nate, Tomas and all people who listen, talk, think, write and do and,.... are involved. much love! listening to this now regular makes me feel excited in despite shear panic and hopelessness i felt on default prior discovering this movement... . I allways have felt THIS inside and now my inner unspoken wordless world you all speak into reality. so cool question> mby u already have it somewhere,and i havent found it,. but would u share THE list of books, THE must reads in regards of The Grate Simplification. IAM an artist, general am interesten in all topics, but i see being useful more in psychological cultural topics and how individuals can be active participants in this uni and other meta-verses. thank you and hi from deep woods of latvia benga wrong

Wow. I think I will have to write a blog or do a video to fully comment on this one. I just wanted you to know that I did watch it . I hesitate to say anything specific yet about my reactions to the content because it will take at least a paragraph or four. 😁. For now , thanks for bringing this guest on and giving me new insights.

Unless, and until humanity comes to the collective understanding that we are ALL passengers on Buckminster Fuller's "Life Raft Earth" will there be any hope for anybody. At the moment we homo sapiens are the equivalent of a group of panicked survivors aboard a foundering life raft fighting over food, water and a comfortable spot, while the entire raft and all of its inhabitants are in danger of capsizing from the onboard frenzy.

i would really like to get a copy of this book "the Nordic Secret" without buying on amazon

Mr Bjorkman- when talking about politicians not knowing enough of Economics 101 they don't control such things as patents and Copyrights - you forgot to mention the presence of Lobbyists which is the tool by which the wealthy maintain the status quo. I think Daniel mentioned that. ,

Thanks, Nate and Tomas for the insightful dialogue. Myles Horton and his Danish connection was never mentioned in any of my history classes. Earth overshoot, civilizational collapse and Armageddon should clearly be at the top of the list of meta-crises. Would a benevolent dictator who incentivized a policy of voluntary one or no offspring per couple help long term survival? Or would it spark a violent revolt which would hasten the demise of a habitable biosphere? lol

The paradox is that anyone who truly tries to live by their environmental ethics, to truly limit their carbon footprint, to tread lightly on the earth, will essentially take themselves out of the conversation. Thoreau wrote a book that's still read by earnest high schoolers, but modern Thoreaus are milking their goats and feeding their chickens on some modest homestead, not jet setting around the world to futurist summits and economics conferences. Thus, NO ONE on the world stage of this conversation sets a legitimately valid example of what sort of lifestyle and "civilization" is the goal, much less what the even MORE PAINFUL scale down, or deaccelleration phase will look like. Arm chair philosophers unwilling to walk the walk. Smooze with the private jet crowd and the stench of their hypocrisy embeds in the fiber of your being.

1:09:41 - Myles Falls Horton (9 JUL 1905 - 19 JAN 1990) & Donald Lee West (6 JUN 1906 - 29 SEP 1992) had both traveled to Denmark to study its folk schools, centers for adult education & community empowerment. The resulting school in Monteagle, TN was based on a concept originating in Denmark: "that an oppressed people collectively hold strategies for liberation that are lost to its individuals -- Wikipedia

Very interesting! Didn't know he was so close to Jonathan Rowson.... you should interview him as well! His article "Tasting the Pickle" is an excellent read about the meta crisis! Also enjoyed the part about Folk schools and there's a fascinating interview on John Vervaeke's channel about this.... can't remember the guest's name though.... John is also someone you should have on, as he's been a leading figure articulating the meaning crisis (and how to escape it), which seems central to the main points of this video. This personal development is crucial, as I hear so many young people that either get sucked down into depression, as I once did, or that completely reject the idea that there even is a crisis, because it's just too much to cope with. We are going to need courage to face this shift, and without community and support systems, we likely will descend into violent chaos. I'm not a big fan of top down power structures too implement these changes, and for that reason, I still have a lot of skepticism about the sustainable development goals.... I was disappointed to hear the focus on these.... They sound good on the surface, and I do agree with the benevolent parts of then, but I also fear that there might be a reinforcement of the power structures built into them (Alison McDowell is the one to listen to about this, as her research is quite extensive). I don't want to see more tyranny as the solution to "sustainability" but rather if we could come together willingly to achieve what we desire globally. But what's being built in big tech seems much more like Neo feudalism than a just and benevolent system... It seems they want to know everything little thing about us and at the same to increase their own power and wealth, and further stratify society. I simply don't trust that this will be good for humanity or the planet. The last thing I'll mention, because the animals need us to speak up, is that veganism really is the only proper philosophy if we want to expand our circle of compassion to non human animals.... There's simply no way to exploit entire species while giving them any kind of justice. No animal would willingly choose to be our food or material source, and we have the technological capability to make that so. We just need the willpower! I believe someday we will evolve to this understanding, but only if we can avoid this multitude of crises. I think any alien species (or even future humans) looking at the system and how we exploit others would be disgusted and see us as a cancerous abomination. Despite all the art music and beauty we've created, we still act like barbaric narcissists towards animals and our environment. I hope someday you see this the same way! I know you keep hinting at it, but I can't figure out why you don't go the whole way. I still appreciate the efforts here, but I think if you adopted veganism as a philosophy, you'd be much more morally consistent, especially about something that causes such immense harm and suffering.... just saying Cheers

i wonder what it's going to take to get; coffee, sugar, oil, chocolate, tobacco, medications, entertainment? Or how far up the Missouri River could ordinary people live? Which places will fare better? Places in U.S. that have a lock on energy: Illinois and Pennsylvania and Texas. An abandoned Las Vegas, Palm Srings, Greater Los Angelas and a diminished Denver, Phoenix. Winters are bad but no energy=no air conditioning. We're not even talking about these heat waves over the next couple of summers. For one, I'm learning advanced first aid and how to throw a javelin.

The basis of the Nordic Secret was revelation. That a country's leaders could be so informed and far-sighted in determining the future of that country seems so far removed from where we are today. But wouldn't that be great if we could rebuild our education system to both educate children about the natural world and give them the space and time to figure out who they are as individuals, what they think about the world as the find it and what they feel their place is in it. An education system that doesn't have a predetermined outcome but allows the natural strengths and interests of each child to develop. The current curriculum would be an adjunct to support this development rather than the centre piece. A dream, perhaps, but as Tomas mentioned it may be easier to start this process at university level and a curation of online sites that help all of us to explore ideas and views that assist with this inner development. Sites such as this one and others I listen to give a platform to some great thinkers and advocates of perspectives that inspire and often resonate deeply with long-held but sometimes unexpressed thoughts of your own. This was one of those! Thanks, Nate.

1:12:25 - The 29K APP ( 24,124 ) 1:13:02 - book The World We Create

1:03:40 - Q : 1:03:47 - The Nordic way : Small retreat centers surrounded by nature _________ Denmark had 100 & Norway had 75 & Sweden had 150 such 6-month-learning Centers in 1900 1:05:37 - Q : . . . People - Planet - Profits 100 years ago ? 1:06:02 -

1:00:06 - book : The Nordic Secret: A European story of beauty & freedom by L R Andersen & T Björkman , HC & PB 7NOV17 Lene Rachel Andersen is an economist, author, futurist, & bildung activist. Since 2005, she's written 17 books & received 2 Danish democracy awards: Ebbe Kløvedal-Reich Democracy Baton (2007) & Døssing Prisen, the Danish librarians’ democracy prize (2012) L R Andersen is a full member of the Club of Rome & Nordic Bildung, copenhagen based think tank's co-founder . She's also one of the initiators of European Bildung Day & the European Bildung Network

It is critical to distinguish the syntropic energy flow/power of Nature/Creation from mankind's unnecessary, destructive and unsustainable use of entropic energy flow/power (aka technology and Civilization). Once this distinction is clearly articulated, there will be greater clarity/awareness. Consider how our Biosphere works - a self-organized cycle of plant producers, animal consumers and fungal recyclers, where restrained entropic consumption by animals is in service to the Syntropic whole. A degree of entropic animal consumption is required to recycle carbon and prevent another "snowball Earth", with net animal consumption regulated by Darwinian checks and balances. Beyond CO2 regulation, consumers like us also help primary producers (plants) by redistributing nutrients, pollen, seeds, etc... Together, our planet's syntropic whole has provided the stable hydrology and temperature necessary for the sustainable emergence of ever-greater beauty, complexity and intelligence. Unfortunately, human intelligence and technology have mainly focused on escaping from Darwinian (ecological/natural) constraints on our consumption, with disastrous results. Our impressive capacity to cooperate has been focused on exponentially entropic projects (warfare, industrial consumption) without self-restraint. This is NOT adaptive, and it is high time we recognise it for what it is. Consider our myopic economic theory. Expansion of the industrial economy is inherintly destructive, wasteful and opposed to our planet's capacity for syntropic growth. Thus, "economic growth" is an oxymoron. GDP should be called GDD (gross domestic destruction) or GDE (gross domestic entropy) because it is an accounting of entropic power not true syntropic productivity. Understanding the obvious distinction between our syntropic planet and entropic civilization/technology suggests an ecological solution: to avoid external restraint from a collapsing biosphere (via mass die-off), we MUST maximize our knowledge, attitudes and capacities for self-restraint (self-regulation). Contemporary insights into the emergence of complexity and intelligence may provide guidance. Self-restraint of our capacity for unnecessary entropic tech/power must be freely-chosen. As with other self-regulated systems, it cannot be "top-down". A syntropic society MUST emerge spontaneously from free interaction between autonomous and self-regulated individuals and collectives. Decentralized reliance on modularity (villages?), negative feedbacks, avoidance of positive feedbacks, and other evidence-based syntropic principles may also apply. Intact Polynesian and indigenous cultures may provide important practical guides. For example, the ahupua'a system of traditional Hawai'i linked island streams and watersheds to a modular form of social structure and governance "from the mountain to the sea". This system was the basis of a vibrant and sustainable society, though there was also prominent use of entropic power (warfare and harsh punishment) to maintain social control. At this point in history, it is unclear if the self-restraint we require can be effectively legislated, purchased, fabricated or coerced, but it surely can be encouraged. In small groups, reputation and social status are based on reciprocity, compassion, and the cooperative restraint of our endless wants and unnecessary entropic capacities. To globally expand self-restraint beyond the modularity of the villiage will require transcending the splits between us and them and between the intellect and the heart. As Jesus, Buddha, Epicurus and countless others have demonstrated, restrained/enlightened community spontaneously emerges from the bottom-up and inside-out when individuals distinguish our modest organismal/physical needs from endless social wants. In our time, such a moral/spiritual reawakening can be supported by the emerging evidence-based worldview (scientific truth) that syntropy is the ONLY source of lasting health, happiness, beauty and wisdom - infinitely more precious and valuable than desire for entropic power. Even children grasp the difference between enmity that leads to death and destruction and love that nurtures the wondrous growth of living things. May all of humanity regain the spiritual and psychological integrity necessary to live in accord with this common-sense understanding. - - - - The supreme good is like water, which nourishes all things without trying to. - It is content with the low places that people disdain. - Thus it is like the Tao (the Way to live). - In dwelling, live close to the ground. - In thinking, keep to the simple. - In conflict, be fair and generous. - In governing, don't try to control. - - -

I'm curious how Mr. Björkman's "Metamodernism" relates to Ken Wilber's "Integral" philosophy, seeing as both can be said to be "multi-perspectival," and would seem to have at least some overlap.

Write a simpler manifesto that I can show my friends and ask them to join too.

Do we have more examples of meta-modernism? Would "The Venus Project" have any relevance here, or just the opposite?

Thanks for another good conversation! Did you guys say what is the root cause of the meta crisis?

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I read a historical account that Sweden's land owners kicked the tenant peasants off the land hence the reason for the migration (out of Sweden). In conjunction with the entirety of Europe's nobility to consolidate land for industrial agricultural production. You know, that fascist collectivist thing.

No, Seeger institute, the center on building and why he modeled on the Highlander Institute. One does not need to travel in order for the time to absorb RU-vid university home one to improve the fact that Kirt never done one versus age in the real world work with one hand bring one bud in simultaneous. We have Bluetooth speakers, and every one location on the corner. What are your plans or what are your sleep in your mouth and we are all learning into it

Grass roots is how i was forced to work in my local community to learn , share thoughts ,opinions and action plans. Unfortunately it has also led to over worked volenteers with very slow progress with little personal benefit

Where's the political organization I can join?

1:06:19 - They reacted against the enlightenment view 1:06:48 - 1:07:52 - Q : Today seen as life-long learning 1:08:09 - Rosa Parks

At 32 mins. in. I can agree that oxygen is necessary for survival but money is optional. Not all societies have had money. Money is not precise enough. Money is really energy IOUs. One form of energy utilisation. We need energy would be more accurate than "we need money" because money is just one manifestation of energy utility.

Thanks Nate for the podcast, I have a question with regards to viable planetary futures. There have been some major thinkers in the future of education, including Daniel Schmactenberger and Zak Stein, who've suggested that the future of education will have to leverage digital technology in the form of AI powered personalized tutor systems facilitated in a Metaverse VR world (Schmactenberger has said in this podcast [1] that we might be less than

Love your program, Nate, enjoyed this one as well, but this guy feels a bit too much like an agent for the World Bank or the IMF. There is no MIGHT with the Polycrisis and he darn well knows it, re: Schmachtenberger. He also knows that corporations, like the ones that made him rich, are largely to blame for our situation. I agree that the corporations will need to be involved in the transition but they should NOT be allowed to control it. Corporations, just like money and nation-states, will have to go in the new model.

"Meta" sure seems to be the trendy word of the season. I think it is often used inappropriately and arrogantly to make it seem as if a certain project is of a higher order thinking process when it really is not. All this redefining of our language makes it ever more difficult to reach common understanding.

I really can not see what use a post modern perspective can be in regards to overshoot, ecological disaster, peak oil and over population. About as useful as masturbation and only useful to vested interests who like to see inaction or fake action. Post modernism is SO passe. So yesterday.

Would you consider talking to Bjørn Lomborg about energy and the environment? He has an interesting perspective that I'm curious about your take on.

It's frustrating to me who largely do not have the connections ort money that you have (and might have gone ahead already and formed a polititcal organization if I did./ Nort so hard if you have the resources - even Trump did it. . i don;t mean to get the Democratic party but to form a true People worldwide Partty - much like the communists did that has even gotten me to join the late 1960's. in the Philippines. Stop being arm chair revolutionaries - you've talked enough - do the thing that's urgently needed. I'll volunteer all my time and effort recruiting and educating family and friends if you'll just set it up already.

I saw an interview of Bjorkman where the Swedish interviewer said, the right wing is on the move, and he seemed to agree. Is this another rich guy telling the rest how to better themselves? The Swedish Secret is developed public services that build personal growth and community, rather than capitalism which promotes it only for the winners. Our rich guys like Musk, Gates and Bezos want to escape the rabble.

I quit watching at @2:45. He says he studied natural science? Ended up in finance. It's the same story over and over. Sell your soul for rock and roll and later on do the good things.