I feel like Camilla was making a top 10 games that deserve more love, Tom was making a top 10 game changers, and Chris was actually making a list of games that should be mentioned at least once in the BGG top 10. Loved the conversation as always!
I sort of get Camilla’s argument to get more approachable games into the top 10, but it really felt like she made a list of best gateway games instead.
I felt like it was a list of the top ten games someone recently played with friends, and not a top ten of all time. All fine, recent games. But I don't understand the angle she approached the list from.
@@jasonc2784 I mean. That's what a gateway game is. A modern boardgame that is approachable for people not into the hobby. Something decent and modern you can hopefully bring to Uno or Monopoly night without getting everyone annoyed at you.
@@FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb Different strokes. draftosaurus is nearly a 10 out of 10 for me. Small games can still be perfect games, I think it's one of those.
I never, ever comment on Dice Tower videos (though I’ve watched almost every single one of them) but I must say… Chris your comparison of games to albums was amazing. I can totally see how you tied your picks to the albums. It was so thoughtful and on the money. I’d like to propose a series of videos where Chris just ties classic albums to games. I’d pay to watch that. Well done. Loved this list.
This top 10 is such a good idea! I even think it has year-end potential. Would love to hear what Zee's, Mike's, and Roy's picks are for the top 10 as well.
people remember that the Dominion has come out both on Android and iOS including all the expansions so don't go wasting your money on the physical version
Chris as a music fan I gotta say the album references had me repeatedly pointing at my phone and agreeing aloud. I know those won't land with many viewers but I appreciated them big time 👍 creative way to lend more insight on your list
I think the trouble is that he equates a slightly obscure board game to The Beatles when in reality its like comparing it to a local band that only do local gigs
@@danteshydratshirt2360 It's an analogy though, so it's comparing Ra within Knizia's games to a Beatles album within their music. That's the whole point. I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy, but it's interesting.
Only watched the intro so far, but I feel like this might be one of my most favorite TDT Top 10 lists ever!! I love how each person explained their thought process regarding how to approach the list, and I love the insight on how people view "highly rated games" in general. We'll see how well it comes through for me.
It's a great game, but I don't know about top 10. It feels like one of the best games from 2000. Just too dry on theme. Any game in the top 10 has be be great in all areas, and to me that means a great game with great theme. It's not enough to just one and be in the top 10.
As a music nerd and board game nerd I really appreciated Chris'comparing games to music and albums. He was also very eclectic in his choices. One of my fav top 10s.
Chris' additional music album list... 10 - Beatles - Rubber Soul 9 - Metallica - Master of Puppets 8 - The Bodyguard OST (or generally movie soundtracks) 7 - Tool - Lateralus 6 - Ramones - Ramones 5 - AC/DC - Back to Black 4 - Pink Floyd - The Wall 3 - Red Hot Chilli Peppers - Californication 2 - Marvin Gaye - What's Going On 1 - Led Zeppelin - IV
Chris, I (and everyone else watching this brilliance) think your music/game analogies are FANTASTIC! Always do your reviews and stuff just like you did this one! Bravo!
Camilla clearly was making an entirely different list… should have been tipped off by her initial statement that she had no idea what rank they were currently on BGG. Top 10 games that deserve to be ranked in the BGG top 10… games that are objectively the best of the best, in her opinion - and she’s making a “recommendations for new gamers” list apparently… then picking mostly obscure games that are far from the best of their kind. Don’t get me wrong, I think she picked some good games - I’d agree with Quacks of Quedlinburg, and I suspect if I played Destinies I would also agree (Chronicles of Crime is up there). I do like Obscurio, but I’m not sure if it’s quite top 10. To be fair, I haven’t played all the games, but of the others listed here, I definitely agree with Ticket to Ride, Pandemic, Azul, Root, Caverna, Viticulture, Wingspan, Codenames, the Crew, and probably even Magic the Gathering. I haven’t played Dominion, but we have been loving Thunderstone Quest, and that definitely deserves to be up there, so the classic deck-builder makes sense.
Expected For Sale to show up here - for what it is, I think it is nearly a perfectly designed game. Scales well, plays quick, can be explained in 3 minutes. There really aren't any flaws with the design.
I love these top 10s. They always intro me to something new, and with this one, awesome games I hadn't thought of. Great Lists all, and I agree, no room for snobs. We are all just here trying to have some good old fashion fun. Looking forward to the next list :)
So I started the list frustrated at Camilla's logic. But then I realized the logic is completely sound, just coming from a different place. Tom and Chris seemed to make their lists based on what "deserves" to be in the top 10, looking at the top 10 as what it is meant to be, the top 10 games. But Camilla's list is saying, yes the it is the top 10 games, but the top 10 is often used by people as a billboard for games to play or try. So she isn't saying that the games deserve to be in the top 10, but that she wishes they were anyway because people would play them more and that would be good for hobby. So not saying they are the best games ever, but that they should be on that billboard.
Just wanted to say that I truly appreciated the thought that Chris put into his list. Comparing them to albums was absolutely perfect. Loved the analogy!
I've played 100s of games of Root both on the app and TTS and in-person so I can safely say it's my comfort game. It has a really high barrier of entry so getting to that point of feeling very comfortable with all the mechanics and interactions of the asymmetrical factions takes some time to be sure. BUT, once you and your play group arrive at that point, I promise you there is not better game. When you understand the game (which at its core isn't even that complex) there's so much room for fascinating synergy, intricate combos and table talk beyond what you can find in most any other game. Getting to that point takes time and it's certainly not a game for everyone but for people who get sucked in by the asymmetry and theme, it's a game with near infinite possibilities.
I love the idea of Root. I played it once, and immediately decided I wouldn't play it again. As a "very serious" gamer, its just one that I felt that without understanding how all the races at the table played, I was just kinda playing blind, and it really bothered me. So I'd have two options. A, I could just not play it. Or B, I could play it enough to learn all the races (2-3 games per race), and then be enjoying it. Tack on the fact that its a fairly long playtime game, and the plethora of other games that I enjoy playing as much or more, and it just wasn't worth it to me. I think it's a pretty great game, but just doesn't work well for me.
I was skeptical of the interest of this top 10 list, based solely on the title, but wow was I proven wrong! Kudos to Camilla, Chris and Tom for the insightful lists and fun banter. I have to commend Camilla on the out-of-the-box thinking for her list. What I find interesting are not so much her specific choices (although totally agree about Quacks and Jamaica), but rather that Camilla approached the list as a way of filling in important blanks on the BGG 10. i.e. not each game needs to be a sprawling epic strategy game, so what would be a key party game, family-weight push your luck, drafting, racing, dexterity, etc? Totally turned the top 10 on its head and I was 100% on board for this. Especially since you had Tom and Chris covering the list from a more "traditional" stance. Well, actually - I think Tom went a touch too meta with his list by the time he got to the top 5. Nothing wrong there, but I think to simplify things I would have stuck with the "spirit" of the BGG target arena: modern designer board games. So games like Monopoly, Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, Magic, Chess, Go, etc would all be out of consideration. Making a statement like that at the beginning would have acknowledged whatever subset of those you feel deserved mention, and would have made for perhaps a more focused list (as well as more designer board game choices, such as Dixit which you mentioned early on). Still a great list from Tom otherwise, and I thought Ticket to Ride at #1 was an inspired choice. Kemet! Ra! With these two choices alone I have to give Chris the nod for the list that's the most near and dear to my heart, but I also think his list was consistently good throughout; my favourite type of album is one where you can hit play at the beginning and do something else without skipping a track because they'd all be hits. A few albums come to mind but for Chris, you are Guns 'n' Roses' Appetite for Destruction. ;) I think the BGG top 10 is not bad as it currently stands, and I do agree with many of the Dice Tower's (and People's) choices. Other candidates I can think of would be Tigris & Euphrates and Kingdomino: Origins (OG is fine, but Origins is nearly identical and comes w/ built-in expansions for more play). Honorable mention goes to X-Wing Miniatures (v 1.0, as a casual gamer). Leaving it out because the game now seems to be in a shambles unfortunately. I wouldn't even know how to advise someone to get into it nowadays.
I love Chris's musical comparisons. As a music lover myself his comparisons are spot on and very well thought out. Kudos to you Chris!!! Well done sir, well done!
BGG should have some sort of Hall of Fame where gateway games reign supreme. They may not be as refined as the newer ones but they are less daunting to newbies and bring more people to the hobby than any flashy, overproduced box of plastic bits. BGG rankings as well as Dice Tower top 100s, are often disproportionately represented by the cult of the new.
The BGG ranking for Family games is probably the closest thing to what you are talking about. It’s still not perfect though. I suppose it should include games like Catan, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, 7 Wonders etc.
Agree with another commenter, Camila basically made a list of games she likes that she feels are good intros to new(ish) gamers for different mechanics. Not a Top 10 of All Time list. Totally subjective though, so I'm not trying to bash that. Just seems like she went in a completely different direction than Chris and Tom. Best picks in my worthless opinion (from their lists) - Ticket to Ride, Wingspan, MTG, Azul, Root, Pandemic/Legacy, Agricola, Quacks, Dominion, Codenames.
I'm not sure that I understand the assignment either. By Tom's own explanation (which I just watched), what he did was "Top 10 Underrated Games," because his #1 was the furthest from the BGG Top 10.
Tom's makes the most sense to me. Games that have become modern classics that everyone plays. I think Camilla was trying to do underrated games in general.
I think Camilla is a good addition to the Dice Tower crew on the whole, but her Top 10s are very quirky. Of course she can put what she wants on them, but of course we don't have to like it.
I think, Ticket to Ride has bigger flaws than Catan. People rave about TtR having fast turns, so you get always involved. But that's not true, SU&SD showcased it brilliantly: very often your only valid option is drawing two cards from the top of the deck, hoping for a wild, and getting frustrated by the useless cards you draw instead. And if there are no useful cards in display, it might be, that you do have to do this ten turns in a row, meaning you have 10 rounds of gameplay with no meaningful decision. It can get very frustrating and boring, and I didn't have lots of game, where it did not go this route for at least a couple of players. For me, it is so boring, it even surprised me, that the actual playtime is shorter, than I initially estimated, after at least a dozen of plays. I thought it to be a 75 to 90 minute game, while in fact, if you look on the watch, it's actually rather 45 minutes to an hour. Catan has kind of a catch up in, that if you are in an unfavourable position from the beginning, people likely do trades, you profit more from than themselves, as long as they at least get some profit from it. I like it much more, but neither of them can compete with Carcassonne or Azul for me.
I can relate to most of Tom's choices. and some of Chris'. but for Camilla, I think we are not on the same page. and I would like to know Zee and Mike choices.
Castle Panic should be in the top 10. It was a big success with my 6 years old nephew, with a group of teenagers and a group of 30-something years old.
Being an avid fan of music, especially metal I can totally appreciate the comparisons of games and rock/metal. Chris should totally do regular content using this as the format 🤘
The last time I went to BGG was to see if there was information on a Kickstarter game I was checking out. I’m new to this hobby and still learning. As I read the reviews, I realized a lot of people (who had never played the game) were rating it a “1” because they didn’t like a particular aspect of the components. This was followed by people (who had never played the game) rating it a “10” to, “balance the negative reviews”. New gamer, advanced gamer, light gamer, board game geek…it doesn’t matter when games are being reviewed that way. Why would you review a book if you haven’t even cracked the cover? There’s none of that mess at The Dice Tower. This was an informative video without any of the “games”. Thank you Camilla, Chris and Tom.
I feel that Camila made a different list than the other two.. It is a great personal list for welcoming games to the hobby. I am just not sure it aligned with the title of the video unfortunately.
I understand the logic. Lots of people who are getting into boardgames will look at the top 10 expecting the games with the broadest appeal, when what they actually get is the most loved games by hardcore/experienced gamers. It's a different reading of the title, but I think it's valid.
Chris, at first I cringed a bit when you said you'd have a music analogy for each pick. Then with each pick.. you completely changed my mind. Very creative and well thought out. Bravo.
I highly disagree with Camilla that the top 10 on BGG should be welcoming games for beginners. That's like saying Transformers should be in the top 10 of IMDB instead of The Godfather. When I started on the hobby I found out that the best way to enter it is to ask for recommendations of light games and just play them, not to play the best ranked on BGG.
Honestly, she made a different list. If she thinks those are the ten greatest board games ever made... well, they just aren't. Not by any objective standard.
I was so excited to see Agricola getting some love! Then a bit sad immediately afterwards 😂 I think Agricola gets dismissed a lot because Caverna exists but its still such a good game in its own right. Its the game that brought me into the hobby so I will always love it!
I would love if BGG maintained a "Welcome to this hobby Top 10…". Something that continues to update as new games replace the great entry point games by some newer games that 'do it better'. Great lists team. Chris, I enjoyed the music analogies. Well thought out and articulated. 👍😃
Oh my word this would be incredible. One of my first attempts at getting into the hobby involved me trying to just get games that are ranked high on bgg, and I just got burnt out by how big some of them are, and going from playing video games to board games where all of a sudden I had to have all the rules in my head was something I had not taken into account. The game for me that really helped bridge that gap was probably Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition. The app helped make it so much easier to wrap my head around things.
CHRIS! Talking about "Master of Puppets" makes me happy. The first 4 Metallica albums WERE so good and still ARE so good. I was so happy when I heard the title track on Stranger Things because so many young people NEED to hear these albums. Anyway...thank you for that! You're game picks were also great (I wanted to make a joke about them being garbage, but they were great!)
Just listening to him describing those albums and then making the comparison with the board games was so fun, I just needed to make a playlist in that order.
Love the Chris Yi music analogies - I relate to everything through music as well and the music analogies made it so I could feel the emotional experience of these games.
Chris Yi! I’m seriously interested in your top 10 albums. Board games and music are my two passions. My buddy (also an avid board gamer) made his top 100 albums and recently motivated me to do the same. I love hearing others lists, but most people don’t care enough to have one.
I enjoyed the friendly banter between these three. Loved Camilla's unconventional choices, Chris' music correlations and Tom jokingly leaning into the "old man" role. Looking forward to more lists, love you guys!
Camilla's Pandemic Legacy move was the boldest move in a Top Ten I've ever seen. And I've been watching for more than a decade. Definitely an expert gamer move: "the rules don't say that I can't do that".
I think Camilla misunderstands what the Top Ten Games on BGG means. It's not about the games that gets people into the hobby nor about different mechanisms representative of the board game hobby. She did a Top Ten Games that best Represents its Game Mechanism List. Not a Top Ten Games of ALL TIME ON BGG List.
Did we ever get a Hall of Fame video? I’m not seeing one. I’ve been looking for a “Top XXX of all Time” list that’s not just someone’s individual personal favorites. Much more interested to hear about Carcassonne, Catan, Pandemic, Ticket to Ride, etc and hear arguments for how and why the G.O.A.T.-ers should be composed and ranked as they are. Not just for right here and now, but for the long haul and for their impact, innovation, elegance, and execution. I want to hear experts debating over if and where Tigris and Euphrates should rank, and why or why not it would be beaten out by a Puerto Rico or a Twilight Struggle. I want to hear informed discussion about how and why Go and Chess should be ranked and whether or not something like Monopoly has a place on the list. More of Agricola, Ra, Jamaica, Quacks, Power Grid, Dominion, MTG, etc please. I absolutely want that top 100 movies type list that rates Citizen Cane and Casablanca and Lawrence of Arabia in the top 10-20 along with modern classics like the Godfather and Jaws. Because maybe those are movies someone born in the 1990’s hasn’t seen, but they are absolutely movies ANY film buff should go back and see. The works of Stanley Kubrick are going to outlive the importance and relevance of the MCU, as a whole, even if the MCU has been enjoyable and culturally relevant and deserves some recognition and representation there (One could say the same thing about Friday the 13th…). But just because I’d rather watch Endgame most days compared to anything by Alfred Hitchcock doesn’t mean that it should rank as a better movie than Psycho or the Birds. I’m so much less interested in any list that’s going to have Oppenheimer, Barbie, and a bunch of Marvel movies on the top 10. Everything, Everywhere, All at Once was a great film, but if that’s number 3 of all time I am going to be immediately skeptical… Sure, everyone can and should like what they like, and one job of a REVIEWER is to help people find things they will enjoy. But also, there’s the responsibility of CRITIC to offer some critical analysis that is honest, at least tries to be objective, and takes into account that broader scope and deeper assessment than the current trends or personal preferences. Top XXX Favorite Games has a place and can and should change a lot. Top XXX GREATEST games OF ALL TIME is what I’m interested in. There’s lots of reviewing going on at Dice Tower, I’d like to see a few more critics.
Chris' musical explanations were an absolute win in this video. They were well-stated, and brought a different feel to the explanations. This is easily one of the best top 10 lists in a while.
I LOVE Chris' music analogies- maybe that's because they align with my taste but still. It makes his thought process really accessible- even where I don't agree with all the conclusions. Would love to see other people try to relate great games to great music/movies/TV/whatever.
Made a quick list before hearing your choices. Ticket to Ride, Scythe, Dominion, Splendor, Wingspan, Puerto Rico, Race for the Galaxy, Castles of Burgundy, Codenames. Lots of cross-over with Tom and people's choice!
Favorite moment: “My number eight is Caverna!” -Tom. Hahahaha! Also love that each member interprets the list differently. That’s the genius of this list, whether on purpose or not.
At least by osmosis you should have heard the name Pink Floyd, I think my dad almost had an aneurysm when I told him all the bands Tom didn't even have an idea of who they were.
Chris, wow, new respect. Have to put on Puppets now. Thank you - loved it and so good to see you push the boat out a bit and create some external reference points.
OMG Chis' analogies are awesome! The one about root with tool it's amazing! Hahahhahaha! He should mention that both of them are just a syllable with a double o there! 🤯
I would love to see a list where they replace each of the BGG top 10 with a game they like better that is in a similar category. For example, if I were doing it,Terraforming Mars is an engine builder, and I would say I like Fantastic Factories (another engine builder) better.
I never have that a person on the Top 10 have a clean sweep with me whereby I agree with every pick, but Tom did it. His list is completely on point. I cannot disagree with any of his picks. Well done, sir
Tom's point about Gloomhaven vs Azul and how people rate gates low vs not playing them at all is pretty great. Not to say Gloomhaven isn't great, but it being so huge and unapproachable and a very obvious "you know if you're looking for a game like this, or not" type experience, while also being great, probably lends it a great deal of protection from being dragged away from the top spot.
OK, I guess it depends on the criteria set. My criteria is that, for a game to be in the top 10, it must be at least 10 years old (and should probably be 20 years old) and have staying power. It should still be popular and played heavily and probably have been reprinted and modified/expanded in those years and, as a bonus, it should not have been surpassed...at least not too much (which leaves out Dominion). The older the game, the ,pre complex it can be because there will be more veteran players available to teach it. So, that includes MTG (which I love), Cosmic Encounters (which I hate), Ticket to ride (which I do not like), Pandemic (which I love - and there lots of variants and expansions), and Twilight Imperium (which I am lukewarm about). I'd have to think about the rest but I definitely do not include only gaes which I love. I would include Illuminati (which I love compared to Cosmic Encounter) but it is nowhere near as mainstream. I would also include Star Fleet Battles but there's probably not enough people around who play it. Excluded games include Chess, Go and Monopoly because they haven't been improved at all in recent years. A game must adapt with the time and those games are no good for modern times.
@@ralfn9629 The game of Go I played in 1979 had the exact same rules as the game I played in 2008. So, no, Go has not been improved. You have not disproved my point. You have just disagreed with me.
I feel like Camilla’s choices were more her personal faves, or maybe more appropriate in a “somewhat underrated games” list. Just didnt make sense in the context of this particular top 10. Chris’s made the most sense honestly, or Tom’s I suppose. (And personally I actually prefer the games on her list to his).
I was not looking forward to this list, but you guys did a great job. The ones I would include that none of you mentioned are Love Letter, Deception: Murder in Hong Kong , Castles of Burgundy, and Descent 2nd edition(is there another overlord game/D&D type experience that's actually available? If so insert that) . Dominion, Code Names, and Ticket to Ride are musts, and think I'm good with Viticulture as the worker placement. Through the Ages is a good pick for the top heavy Euro, and think Wingspan or Azul would be ideal on this list, really can't decide which is better choice, but will go with Wingspan.
I'd agree with Descent 2nd Ed., but man that's a tough game to find all the stuff for these days. And the expense... oh god the expense... I think the HeroQuest re-release with all the fixins', while lacking somewhat in depth, is just as fun in a similar but different way. And, more currenly attainable. I got rid of my copy of Descent 2E, because I felt chained to a long list of things to hunt down on e-bay, as I like to get all the stuff. It's a compulsion.
@@leadbones I hear ya, I just have a couple boxes, and want the rest so badly. The people I played Descent/Imperial Assault with over the years still talk about those times, and I can't really say that about any other game, so I feel like it belongs. But I never got Mansions of Madness - feel like I need too - just sooo expensive.
I don't always agree with Chris's taste in games, but his taste in music is impeccable!! I couldn't not put Lateralus on right now! You bring me a Fibonacci sequence and I'm in!!!
