Sam's got the right idea when it comes to which themes should be considered science fiction, but I've gotta hand it to Zee. He was killing it during this entire segment. "No, that's Fire Fiction." Come on, I died.
I think the real question here (and this goes ditto for the Fantasy Games video, which had the same problem) isn't "Can this game be classified as science fiction?", but should have been "How well does this game evoke the feelings and themes of science fiction?" The Resistance takes place in a future dystopia, so yes, it has a scifi setting. But nothing about the gameplay makes you FEEL or THINK, "oh yeah, science fiction". It's solely about deception and group dynamics. Not really the best example of a scifi game. Cosmic Encounter or TI3, however, are about strange alien powers affecting your decisions, or choosing the path to take as you conquer entire planets and systems. THOSE are scifi themes. Those games are great examples of science fiction games.
I got to play Star Realms recently. It's a nice, easy deck builder with a space theme. You collect ships, build space stations, and you can attack you opponents which is kind of rare with deck builders.
I just ordered Star Realms on Amazon today. They only had a few of them. I can hardly wait to play it. Great art work. Looks like it will be late Feb until it's at stores.
Tom! The definition of Sci-Fi is not "It's set in the future." Steam punk, for example, would be sci-fi set in the past. Ray Bradbury has written stories which most people consider sci-fi even though Bradbury himself called it "Midwest Surrealism."
Sam is spot on by saying that H.P. Lovecraft wrote science fiction. Most of his "monsters' were aliens most notably Cthulhu himself. He was not actually a "god" he was an alien entity. Lovecraft referred to his works as "weird fiction" because when he was writing the terms "horror" and "Sci-Fi" had yet to be coined.
For the most part, Lovecraft's Old Ones come from space, they "filtered down from the stars". The mi-go are space bugs that disembody people's brains and send them throughout space in canisters. Lovecraft DEFINITELY falls under sci-fi, as much as it does under horror.
Awesome episode. By far your best list not necessary because of the picks you made but because of the emotions involved. :D And Sam's extended list (only available to these who stayed to the end of credits) is a nice cherry on top. Great job guys.
I'd let most of Sam's choices slide. They are scifi, if not always the scifi we think of. Except for Pandemic. Two reasons why I don't think it's scifi: 1) it's way too abstract and nothing feels futuristic about it. 2) the black death happened centuries ago, and you could consider that to be similar to what happens in Pandemic. Also, if no one noticed, Tom put star trek attack wing instead of fleet captains on the screen after that round of games.
Just a thought. If you reference an old review or video it would be really nice if you had a quick link in the description. I know its a bit more work for you but it would be really helpful for the viewer. Great series! Really enjoying them
Longtime wargamer here and recently new to the Dicetower. First off, I have to say I really enjoy your top 10 lists, and the Dicetower in general. As an old Avalon Hill gamer and fan, I'd have to put Avalon Hill's ORIGINAL Starship Trooper at the top of my sci-fi game list, just my .02 cents. Tom, Sam and Zee, keep up the terrific vids, you guys are great for board gaming and I am definately a big fan. -Cheers!
That's not true, there is hard science fiction and soft science fiction. Hard science fiction expands on current technology showing future technology like in 2001: A space Odyssey. Soft Science fiction is where technology exists but there is no reason as to why or how it was made like in Star Wars.
OMG! - you used an image from my playthrough of Level 7 [Omega Protocol] - I'm actually quite excited about that - and I love the top tens you guys do. Always good to see you three getting along . . . ;) Keep up the good work with these top tens - so what's next? - top ten cheese games? :)
Several predictions or references are made in this video that came true: Tom referenced no good time travel game (Time Stories), Tom predicted a Star Wars-based tactical miniatures game (Imperial Assault), and Tom said "it's X-Com: the Board Game."
Uhhh, I kind of agree with Tom and Zee that Eldritch Horror is....well, horror rather than sci fi. It's all about ancient gods, not science. King of Tokyo on the other hand is definitely sci fi. Cyberbunny? Mechadragon? They are both robots. The King has cybernetic implants....the others not so much but half the monsters being created by mad science firmly puts in in sci-fi.
I agree on Eldritch Horror not being a sci fi game, but what I find the weirdest is their seeming insistence on defining all games with a single genre. Eldritch Horror is a fantasy horror game. King of Tokyo a science fiction fantasy game. As for Pandemic, it can be seen as a sci fi game, but it's not really. There's no real alternative or super advanced technological or scientific advancements in the game, as far as I know, and there's no explanation behind the sicknesses that could tie them to the genre. It is true that it is about science and it is fiction, but it isn't really "science fiction" unless the science and technological advancements itself is fictional. Pandemic doesn't really have any fictional science or technology.
I agree. Pandemic is totally science fiction. In fact, I'm gonna argue that Star Wars is not. I know I'm going to get shit for this but Star Wars is fantasy that takes place in space. It's about good vs. evil and involves magic. To me science fiction presents scenarios using science. "What if four plagues took over the earth?" Could we save it in time? Who would we need? Ect. I'm with Sam on this one.
Have to agree with this. The easiest way to think of it is as a hierarchy with Fiction at the top and just below that would be sci-fi. That leaves a whooooooooole lotta room underneath it for subgenres.
Sam was on point, as for eldritch horror the books the game is based off of are in the science fiction genre which explains why he chose it. Also don't mind it being on there because everybody else basically chose space, Sam at least spiced it up a bit making the video entertaining
Very pleased to see Star Trek: Fleet Captains there. It is our favourite game right now! Sector 7 is a good game, but when Tom says that it's the 'Aliens' boardgame, I think he's forgetting the superb 'Aliens' boardgame...
The debate centers around the subtle difference between "sci-fi" which conjurs thoughts of bug-eyed monsters, and "science fiction" which can be any fiction in which sciencve is the dominate factor. The novels of Neal Stephenson would be good examples.
I think it was on a Star Trek documentary that Gene Roddenberry was saying they talked to a lot of science fiction writers to come up with material (I don't know if Asimov was around at the time, but guys like him). What the writers said was that you had to have just one thing for which the audience had to suspend their disbelief - meaning mostly reality, with just one thing tweaked a little bit (whether that is time travel, space travel, a virus that makes people zombies, etc.) Not a definition necessarily, just a thought.
I agree with Zee, 51st State and The New Era are great card games, and they become fantastic with the Winter expansion. Play 51st State for a friendlier, more eurogame like feel, and play The New Era if you want more direct confrontation. Winter is always a must, as it adds a new action where you can draft some of the most powerful cards in the game, lessening the impact of lucky draws.
Just for your appreciated advice, I watch the entire advertisement each time. Thanks for helping me with my next purchase. P.S. King of toyko is sci-fi. super powers and technology make it so.
Great time traveling game is Tragedy Looper! Deductive reasoning game with protagonists trying to solve evil plots that a mastermind is controlling. You get a specified number of times that you can go back in time when you lose and use the info you learned from each round to solve mystery.
HP Lovercraft wrote about the 1920's & later in from 1922 to 1937 and wrote stories about Venus in his future along with many other tales set in HIS future. Ergo a Sci-Fi Writer.
I will agree with Sam's pick of Eldritch Horror as being sci-fi. Yes, Lovecraft's work is definitely horror, but it is also very much science fiction. It is a wonderful combination of both genres. Look at Ridley Scott's 'Alien'. There is no way you can argue that movie solely belongs in the horror genre or solely belongs in the sci-fi genre. Great lists guys!
I agree with you about the lack of good time travel games. Chrononauts has an interesting mechanic but is very chaotic. One you might want to look at is Doctor Who Solitaire Story Game. It has a few hits against it for you, it's solitaire, it's PNP (although you can do it all from the pdfs) but it really captures the feel of a Doctor Who episode. Since you like Tales of the Arabian Knights you might like this. (of course Doctor Who rarely uses time travel as an integral part of a story, more as a location setting, but still...)
I like a lot of games and I have played almost all of the games on their lists but it is still a mistery to me why oh why they don't like Eclipse. It is a very very solid game with a lot of very nice ideas, it's immersive and captivating, it has everything you need from a space exploration/economics game.
Pandemic is definitely Sci-Fi. The definition of Science fiction is: fiction based on imagined future, scientific or technological advances and major social or environmental changes, frequently portraying space or time travel and life on other planets.
I like the viewpoint that Science Fiction isn't a genre at all, but a classification of literature. So you have non-fiction, fiction and science fiction. And under that you have different genres, so you can have horror scifi, comedy scifi, romance scifi, crime scifi, even fantasy scifi and so on.
I would say the literary, film, and television genre of 'Science Fiction' is fairly broad, but generally revolves around future technology, robots/ai/androids, extraterrestrial or extradimensional travel, aliens, etc. It's not just 'fiction' with a 'science element'. I'd say Pandemic falls into the 'techno/thriller' genre. Think Michael Crichton, Tom Clancy, etc. Lots of plague/pandemic/virus novels out there set in modern times, and these wouldn't be put in the 'sci-fi/fantasy' section, rather almost always in the 'general fiction' section.
Tom I think a good idea for a top 10 would be two player games (either ones specfically designed that way and/or ones that are really good with 2 players). I have noticed a lot of my friends all started playing with just their husbands/boyfriends and wives/girfriends then expanded out into bigger groups once the bug got a hold of them. I would be extremely interested to see all of your picks. Keep up the excellent work. Great vids.
perhaps the issue is more about whether you are picking the best game that has a sci-fi theme, or about the games that best evoke the sci-fi theme as you see it.
Agreed, that's how I've come to see it. I'm not going to argue that King of Tokyo or The Resistance aren't sci-fi themed (they are), but are they really the best examples of the sci-fi genre? Going with Sam's "Contagion" argument- well, sure, it's a movie that I would categorize as sci-fi if I was pressed, but would it make my list of 10 Best SciFi Movies? Not even close. There are countless other films that bring out science fiction better, just as I would say there are games that evoke sci-fi more effectively than Pandemic or King of Tokyo.
Saying pandemic is sci-fi is like saying: west Nile virus, H1N1, swine flu, polio are events that never happened. If the virus precursor theme lead to the movies Sam mentioned, that is when pandemic would move into the Sci-fi classification.
Sam's right. Wiki definition-Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with imaginative content such as futuristic settings, futuristic science and technology, space travel, time travel, parallel universes, and extraterrestrial life. It often explores the potential consequences of scientific and other innovations, and has been called a "literature of ideas".
any reader of lovecraft will tell you many of his works are sci fi. Although he wrote much horror, many of his works that established his mythos are solidly science fiction. Many of his writings run the line between sci fi and horror as well.
You can have two definition of sci-fi. I think Sam's is the broadest definition (in which even alternate-history stuff like would be considered Sci-fi), while Tom's is the narrowest (however, in the narrowest definition I wouldn't consider Cyperpunk sci-fi, because it's its own genre - look at something like the Cryptonomicon by Stephonson, which is totally cyperpunk but not very sci-fi at all.)
"Long story. Prepare for heat!" Tom, if you haven't trademarked that, I'm going to get it on a T-shirt. :-) Thanks for a fun and useful top 10, guys. I had *thought* you had top 10 of Space-Themed Games somewhere, but this was just as good, because it included all the space games I was trying to remember. A friend has tried to get Alien Frontiers started a couple of times, but I had never heard of it until this video -- must see if you have a full review of it. Also, I think Sam has a pretty weird definition of science fiction, BUT I still liked his opinions, because whether they're SF or not, he had some very good games listed.
Sam, while H. P. Lovecraft did write some sci-fi, I think Eldritch Horror is definitely horror themed. "Within the Walls of Eryx" is a good example of HPL's sci-fi.
The way I see it, all games with science-based things that aren't real are scifi (therefore Pandemic is a scifi as it involves science but the events around it are fictional), as well as anything set in the future (therefore Post-Apoc is automatically scifi). A game doesn't need aliens or robots or space to be scifi, I think. They're just the staples. And in terms of games being horror, scifi/horror is HUGE and always have been since the first Alien film.
Damn, I usually never agree with Sam, but he is 100% correct here. He is also my new fav now because of the 24 hour marathon when he was playing the whole time like a mad man. Keep up the good work thought guys!
10 Best sci fi games I've played: Cosmic Encounter, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Race for the Galaxy, Infiltration, Eldritch Horror, Battlestar Galactica, Rex, Twilight Imperium, Gears of War, Neuroshima Hex. Haven't played Infiltration and Exodus yet, might be good contenders
I was so excited for this topic! I was hoping to share my favorite with everyone, but then I stopped. I thought: "Wait... DO I actually own any sci-fi games?" a cool sweat broke out as I started to look through my collection. I realize now that I've been making a grave mistake in my purchasing choices, and I'll be seeing to fix that immediately. Until then, though, all I can claim to be my favorite Sci-Fi game is... Star Trek Catan... *hangs head in shame*
Tom's point about Science Fiction not occurring "now" rubbed me the wrong way a bit. I would strongly argue that most of Michael Crichton's books were sci-fi, yet the strongest cases for the argument (Andromeda Strain, Sphere, Prey, Next, Timeline, and Jurassic Park come to mind) all took place in the "now," if I'm not mistaken.
Sam is actually right in this one. Science Fiction is fiction with some scientific idea or issue as it's central theme. It doesn't have to deal with The Future (this genre is more specifically "Speculative Fiction") or "Space". King of Tokyo is definitely based on Science Fiction- it's based on Godzilla, who is the monstrous outcome of nuclear radiation.
For those who don't know there are really different genres of Sci-Fi. One is Sci-Fi Horror, like the movie Event Horizon, but really most sci-fi falls into what I call True Science Fiction or True-Sci-Fi like the movie Contact that tries to give you a 'realistic' story, another example would be Interstellar. These are the movies someone like Carl Sagan would be all about. Then you have Science Farce movies. Movies like Independence Day. They are like action-horror and don't necessarily try to be 'realistic'; So in the end you get movies like Aliens (sci-horror), The Martian or 2001 Space Odyssey (true Sci), or movies like Men in Black (Sci-Farce). So if you watched Sci-Farce movies and liked them what your actually watching is a sci-fi movie with the 'realism' dumped down to a Jerry Bruckheimer level (basically anything he makes)...think Transformers or TMNT also fall into that category. Nothing wrong with it, but it is like High and Low Brow comedy. And yes there is also a Sci-Fi Magical type category like that movie with Arnold called the Last Action Hero. IT is both action but also a bit 'sci-fi' with the sci-fi aspect replaced with a 'magical' type element, yet not truly 'magic' in the Fantasy way like a movie such as Dragonslayer. That is when they blend genres together, like Horror and Sci-Fi to get Sci-Fi Horror So, HP Lovecraft keep in mind was in his day considered 'Sci-Fi and these distinctions I've been talking about where not as well defined back then. Writers like Ray Bradbury made money from doing short stories and often elements like 'horror' or 'sci-fi got blended. Today we would probably classify or rather re-classify HP as a quintessential Horror writer, but also realize when he wrote and what his contemporary world was like. The stories he was telling were not retro. Sort of like updating 'horror' in a more modern setting rather than a period movie set in that decade. In other words, if a boardgame fits into any of those sub-types it falls into the broader 'sci-fi' category, but is an example of one of those sub-genres
Pandemic, to me, is science fiction much like The Andromeda Strain but on a worldwide basis instead of just one location. It is fiction dealing with scientific/medical elements. As for Lovecraft, his entities always felt "otherworldly". The Old Ones were more than just monsters. They always seemed like they came from somewhere or sometime other than Earth whether that be another universe or dimension.
I want someone to select Eclipse and Sam's head explode. I love that game, though. I once read that "science fiction is the thing that someone is pointing at when they say 'that is science fiction.'" I don't think Sam Healey was attributed with it, though. Tom, Star Fleet Battles is a very different type of game from Star Trek Fleet Captains. It's a small scale tactical maneuver game. Aside from the theme, it's nothing like the new game. Zee, steam punk space flight? FANTASY, Dude. Did you get that one from Sam? Hmm...apparently he did. I saw Ricky Royal do a play through of Duel of Ages II. It looked like a lot of fun.
Had you made this list a year later, I am sure Xia:Legends of a Drift System would have made it high in your lists. The game had been through a great amount of amazing improvements since Tom's preview :) Its also winning in its categories on BGG's most anticipated games pool :)
I prefer Rod Serling's definition of science fiction and fantasy: "Fantasy is the impossible made probable. Science fiction is the improbable made possible." I suppose horror could fit into both.
Okay, this theme is rife with debate, and I agree with Sam. Call of Cthulhu IS both sci-fi and horror. Ancient Old Ones are inter-dimensional aliens. King of Tokyo IS sci-fi in that if you've seen the movie Pacific Rim, I don't think that you can argue that being anything other than sci-fi.
I tend to agree that most of what Sam listed was Sci Fi only in a very broad sense, where things like Zombies and alternate realities might qualify, but I don't think that is what most people would think of when they think of sci fi. The definition is "fiction based on imagined future scientific or technological advances and major social or environmental changes, frequently portraying space or time travel and life on other planets." I'd bet most people are more thinking about that last sentence with the future tech, space, and maybe aliens being heavily featured. Games where the theme is strongly represented in the game play. Having one unit that is a "scientist" or a robot isn't enough for most people to classify it that way. Diseases and contagions have been ongoing issues throughout history. Even settings where the game takes place in the future I would argue wouldn't qualify if the game didn't heavily represent futuristic technological elements. So the Resistance wouldn't qualify to me because it's an intrigue game and it "being in the future" doesn't really affect the game in anyway.
Good show as always. Really enjoy both "Neuroshima Hex" and "Among the Stars", myself. "Level 7: Omega Protocol" looks great, but I've no realistic chance of ever finding anyone with whom to play it.
Sam was right about what qualifies as science fiction - understand, also, that some genres can mix: Alien = science fiction horror and Aliens = science fiction action.
I have to agree with Sam. Many people narrowly define sci-fi as things that are extremely out of the realm of possibility but sci-fi does include things that are improbable. I don't define sci-fi as any fiction that has science in it, but if it stretches science to a reasonable degree it is sci-fi. I liked Sam's list which included lots of different flavours of the science fiction genre (including Eldritch) rather than just space/aliens. I wouldn't have thought of King of Tokyo but once he qualified it you realise he is correct.
Sound gets better when the resume after Sam grabs and turns off the microphone. Thanks Sam. And I agree with you more about what Sci-Fi is than others seem to, e.g., Pandemic.
I was surprised there were no superhero games mentioned even if not making the top 10. I would consider a lot of comic books/superheroes to fall within the sci-fi genre.
