fairy tale did a better job with power scaling than Naruto, should had switched those 2 dragonball power scaling is fine the saiyans dna is to grow stronger meanwhile the other cast members acknowledge this and do what they can and some even stop fighting also vegeta only slaughter a handful of ppl which was the namekians, and a couple of ppl in the buu saga but he get a pass since he did help the hero with the villains instead of siding with them
LoL 🤣 you think dragon Ball power creep is worst . Ever heard of comic books created by marvel and dc . You know how fked up power creep they have. And db didn't even showed his power creep yet . Instead it's tone down.
I wouldn’t say that Luffy is a underdog as he’s never portrayed as one. He’s overlooked but not an underdog especially in the East Blue saga where it seemed like he was unstoppable. As for Itachi himself, he wasn’t a bad guy turned good. He was portrayed as a bad person but we never had the whole story all Kishimoto did was give the whole story as it was more of a plot twist rather than a shift in character arc.
Agree Luffy's always been portrayed as incredibly strong, especially in East Blue. It wasn't until arguably Alabasta that he ended up coming across someone who could physically challenge him
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I should have gone a bit more into depth with Luffy, as I was mostly thinking about how the Gum Gum Fruit makes him unable to swim, a trait that most pirates need. So in that instance he's nerfed and below the average pirate. But in terms of fighting ability I would agree with you! For Itachi, he was still in the Akatsuki so I'd label him as an antagonist. When he is revived during the war he joins the good side. While that might be nitpicking or a technicality, I personally still consider it a bad guy becoming good. Totally fine if you still disagree though! I appreciate you taking the time to respond!
@@MonitorComics To be honest, I don't think the underdog protagonist "trope" is actually used often in Shonen, allow me to elucidate my point. When it comes to Naruto, he was by no means an underdog, rather he was portrayed as one. In the first chapter, he defeated an experienced Chunin with the multi-shadow clone jutsu. He literally had more chakara reserves than anyone else since he was an Uzumaki and possessed the nine-tails. In the end, we discover that Naruto is a reincarnate of a demi-god (Ashura), so Naruto cannot be considered an "underdog" character. Naruto worked dilligently, but he could not have done what he did in the series without natural-born talent. As with Deku, the story sets itself up as an underdog story only for Deku to receive the strongest quirk in the series. The story begins as an underdog story, but proceeds to betray that theme in a few chapters. What I'm trying to divulge here is that Shonen stories often market themselves as having as "underdog protagonist" but in reality, the protagonist is a top-dog or at least becomes one early on. That right there is the "trope".
Underdog trope will never be played out honestly. With good writing it always makes for an interesting and entertaining story. To many people identify with being the underdog in their own lives for it to go out of style.
Fun fact Shonen protags prior to Naruto were rarely underdogs. Underdogs only became popular because of Naruto. pre Z Goku, Yusuke, Jotaro, Kenshiro, Kenshin, Edward Elric were all prodigies in their fields. Then Naruto comes in and changed things while being mega successful and such people started to take inspiration from it
No wonder Naruto didn't feel like an underdog to me, He mostly has a reason compared to most who still had a family or lover. Naruto literally came up from nothing
One of the reasons Fullmetal Alchemist is one of my favorites is how it subverts and reinforces the underdog trope at once. Edward Elric is a legendary alchemist whose reputation precedes him, but people underestimate him when they meet him and realize he’s a short kid. Best of both worlds! Lol
I’m glad someone mentioned the first trope, don’t get me wrong I love characters that start somewhat weak and get strong, but we get characters like Yuji Itadori, Denji, and Gabimaru (all dark trio) and recently Chihiro, and i agree, it’s a breath of fresh air
@@MonitorComicsis it about the trope or the story being good? Maybe it could get a little samey but protags that are a little more human and grounded could be cool
Yuji fits closer to an underdog. Sure he is physically gifted but he needed to build cursed energy from the ground up. And then he has Sukuna who is a walking disaster who can choose to swap at a given notice. Sukuna actually dampers his power
@@MonitorComicswell it's all about balance. The big 3 were/are so genre defining that many series after it it take inspo, similarly to how they turned classic series like DragonBall, yu yu Hakusho into their own thing. Right now, we are seeing a wave of creativity. Some more recent series seem to be a rejection of the old age, allowing for new kinda of stories. While some still take inspiration, like JJK with bleach Mangas like chainsaw man and soul eater/fire force a have influenced serieses as well, with Dandadan and Gachiakuta respectively
One thing I want to say is that it's okay to use tropes in writing but it's important the tropes don't *define* your writing. Having one or two villains become company for the hero is nice and good but if every villain is a hero waiting to happen: Your readers learn not to be afraid of villains which is probably not what you want.
I would say flashbacks in fight scenes are kind of important Though it can be annoying sometimes but most of the times it makes us feel different kind of emotions Imagine a scenario Two friends are trying to kill each other and we know our protagonist don't want to do it so flash back at those times can make us feel emotional It depends on how they are placed
I more thing I absolutely hate is that protagonists are always related to some very important people from the lore - what is supposed to be the explanation for how they also can achieve big things. What is also a large problem irl (especially in asian countries) that some people think your value is your name instead of the things you can do because you are you. Would be more interesting when Luffy or Naruto would just be beggars and total nobodys than what the story was making them come from.
The problem is that real life is like that. If you aren't born with rich parents or with a big name attached you are not likely to succeed. There are exceptions due to luck and other things but you really don't want people believing they can achieve anything they want.
I 100% understand your point and I agree. However, Naruto still had to work to master all he had. Him being Ashura’s reincarnation just made it so he was destined to fight Indra’s reincarnation. Sasuke on the other hand was the one who always had the “gifted prodigy” thing going for him. Even in the later arcs, he always had powers handed to him because the author didn’t want him to undergo training arcs like Naruto had to.
People are already replied to you about Naruto so I will talk about Luffy. One Piece is just not a story about an underdog, never meant to be. Luffy is someone special at his core. So no, having him being a complete nobody wouldn't be more interesting, it will make his character very different from what the story require.
As far as I can tell, One Piece has done a good job having Luffy's crew keep up with him in terms of power scaling. If they didn't, then it'd be harder to believe Luffy could become Pirate King if his crewmates were holding him back.
I've been working on my own story which is definitely manga inspired I hope to turn it into one 1 day. This video really helps and I'm trying to be careful with these tropes. The one that concerns me is the power scaling. Your tips were very helpful!
If you are interested, when writing power systems you may want to consider these questions. Are the special powers complex or simple? Are there requisites and/or consequences for using them? Set clear limitations in how those grow or change and always keep them in mind When writing the actual fights always be aware of what the characters can't and can do.
@@mv0077 That is very helpful thank you. Yes I've definitely been trying to answer those questions. It's more simplistic but I'm gradually adding layers to it. And I have the consequences, the physical tolls the characters go through. I just have to ensure it can transfer from my mind to words lol
Thanks for the video. As someone working on a shonen type of story that's still in the early development stage. Power scaling is something that I have been very self-conscious about in the vein of my world-building and how my characters will get stronger and the antagonists they will encounter.
1. is the hero's journey 2. the redemption arc 3. damsel in distress 4. battle context 5. power creep I do disagree for the reasons you stated plus the alternative is just as bad if not worse. the under dog and redemption arcs are directly tied to the writers ability to connection with their audience and skill. Can i make you car about someone everyone else dismisses or even hates. Starting them off as powerful will also lead to its own problems. why do i care if that character can already handle their business. You need to rely even heavier on external factors. The problem with the redemption arc is with out it the context often goes to waste. Ive built the character up to be more than just evil for evils sake. the reader has learned to empathize with the character. Why would growth in a character be a bad thing? Damsel in distress is only ever a problem when its a woman. When its children or guys in a bad situation no one ever bats an eye. All stories stem from conflict, man vs man, man vs nature and man vs self. The resolution of these conflicts is the growth of the character. Having goals to achieve is important. why does it need to be a woman? it doesn't. why is it an issue if it is? it shouldnt be anymore an issue than if its a man or child. i would go as far as to say the people who have trouble seeing women as vulnerable are the ones with the real hang ups about women. The trope of the boss bitch that needs no man can be fine but the question of why they matter to the story will arise. What makes for a good fight? Skill and power are great but they don't ensure that a fight will be a memorable one. There are reasons why two children throwing hands can be some of the most epic stories we remember. Its the story behind the fight. we dont care about the hundredth time batman punches joker on its own. its the context of the killing joke or death in the family that makes it special. WWE matches understand that the match lives and dies off the story they build around it. why mid fight? because thats when that information is most important. can it be done better yes. does it ruin pacing? often yes. the trade off is when will this information have the most impact? If all the other characters are able to keep up with the main then the main characters efforts to grow are meaningless. Yajirobe should never be on the same level as goku ever again. He never put in the effort that goku did. they serve to why the main is special. as you said all of these are tropes are to judged on how they are implemented.
There is one main through-line across most shounen and it is perfectly summized by Uncle Ben : "with great power comes great responsibility" aka our MC fuses with/incorporates some greater power (preferably some demon power , this will allow for some high brow discussions about Jungian ingegration of one's own shadow/darker side).
I like that you brought new topics to the discussion instead of regurgitating the exact same points over and over again. I think the power scaling is definitely wonky, sometimes I think the writers get excited about giving characters powers that they sometimes forget that you gotta make sure that it’s not all over the place or characters who should be strong are getting defeated by characters who are weaker. Also yeah the villains becoming heroes most times are done for the sake of it, I’m fine with redemption but make it make sense and make sure it fits the character and their actions aren’t heinous where a redemption is out of the question.
I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video! I do agree with your points about power scaling! Those problems might be harder to avoid when the series is stretched so long though. Dragonball for example was supposed to be finished after it the OG story. Then for Z it was meant to end at the Frieza saga. Then the cell saga. The writer had to figure things out as he went I guess since it was so popular the magazine wanted it to continue!
@@MonitorComics Yeah I think sometimes when a series is dragged out writers sometimes get so fatigued that they start adding things to keep it interesting even if it means making characters powerful for the sake of it.
The best example of an underdog protagonist is Yuma Tsukumo from YuGiOh ZeXal. He starts off needing Astral's help. In episode one, he defeats Kamishiro Ryouga, a legendary duelist who almost won a torunament. But he didn't win because he is strong. He won because he was being helped by Astral, his master. You see, Differently from most of underdog protagonists, he never overcame his rival, Kaito Tenjo, who is the strongest duelist in the anime. But you see Yuma progress as a duelist and ends up defeating the literal devil. But the problem is that all his powers were given to him by his other half and master, Astral. He only won because of his master. In the last episode, Astral is now his master is willing to abandon his friendship with Yuma because it's his mission to destroy Varian World, a world of people who were corrupted by chaos. Yuma challenges him to a duel for his friend to come back to his senses. Now he has to face all versions of Kibou Hope, his ace monster that was given to him by Astral. You have the doubt at the back of your mind that Yuma is going to lose because Astral helped him in most of the fights. Shin Yoshida is a genius anime writer and I think he should get more praise.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts! Surprisingly, Yugioh Zexal is one of the only Yugioh series I haven't finished (watched OG, GX, 5DS, Arc V) but this is making we want to check it out!
As someone that's writing two shonens right now i find this advice really good. I already followed this advices since i absolutely despice most of this tropes, but is nice to hear that im not crazy and that i just hate everything. Love your content for a wile now, ty for the quality
LOL when planning these videos sometimes I ask myself too "Am I just a hater who is trying to be quirky or hipster or do I actually see this stuff happening too often." Thank you so much for taking the time to watch my stuff and leave a comment I really appreciate it!
tbf i wouldnt call Luffy an underdog because hes usually the person we expect to win because of his great fights in East Blue, until he reached the Grandline where he pretty much slowly did become an underdog until after the timeskip, and then re transitioned to Underdog in the Final Saga starting in WCI this is a very insightful video regardless
Those are good points! I was trying to stay surface level in this video to avoid spoilers or talking about something people didn't know about, but I definitely could've gotten more specific about Luffy. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video! Thanks for watching!
Trope 2: Understandable, some characters deserve no redemption. For others it makes their characters greater. I have used this trope twice. In my story Reborn Kings, the demon lord that has tried to destroy the world six times and killed the protagonist in their last life. But it turns out she is just a slave to the underworld god and became his servent after that god promise to bring back her children that died to a disease. After failing six times and being tortured by her master, all she wants is to be free from his control. She betrays her master to gain freedom. Yes, she really doesn't deserve redemption but the heroes can't stop the underworld god without her help. My second story Magic Knights, the father of the female main character is a witch hunter that captures or kills magic users. But after finding out that both of his children are magic users, he chooses to save his children and betray the oath he made. He ends up learning his beleifs of magic users is wrong and that they are the protectors of humanity. Trope 3: Yes it is a very old trope but it can still be done if executed properly. I have used it this trope twice as well. Again in my Reborn Kings story, before the main protagonist face the antagonist they end up dealing with minor antagonist. The two main characters were pissing off the royal families of the kingdom so they poisoned the female protagonist and kidnapped her. She is very powerful but her power is sealed by enchanted chains put on her. The male protagonist tracks them down to free her. But I twice this trope a little in this story. The male lead flexes his power a little and scares the kidnappers. He then frees the female lead and lets her beat the kidnappers to a blood pulp. The second one is Killer Hero, minor antagonist hires some mercenaries to kidnap the main character close friends. Normally he wouldn't worry about them because both of them are very powerful and can handle a few hired thugs. But the mercenaries also end up kidnapping his mother and little sister who are not as strong as them. This sends the main character into a rage mode and he kills all the mercenaries to save them. Trope 5: I completely agree with your points for this one. With my stories I like having my protagonist go up against antagonist that are equal to them or stronger. Sometimes the protagonist is stronger than the villain but the villains either have more experience in fighting or exploit a weakness of the heroes. One story the main character is a fire user so the villain has a water user fight them. Or the main character has a lot of power but doesn't know how to control it so the villain has the upperhand. Power systems are some of the hardest parts for making a story.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! It was interesting to hear about your story! With Trope 3, the damsel in distress, I do agree if the execution is done well it could still be good! Most recently Attack On Titan flipped the roles and had Eren, the male lead be the one kidnapped several times requiring rescuing!
@@MonitorComics For Trope 2, I would rather go SS route : they join the MC because they don't have any choice (in parole or something...) Then he realize maybe being a good guy is fun
Whoa whoa in my opinion there’s nothing wrong with the first 2 tropes you mentioned. But I will say this, if you are going to use those tropes you got to do right and makes sense within the plot. In case for the underdog story make sure the character’s goal in their own story doesn’t sound similar
As person who is the early stages of planning a manga your videos have certainly been helpful this one being no exception. Mainly being the lack of these tropes existing in what I have planned except maybe the powerscaling but it's in the early stages and is planned to be refined
In my comic i'm making, all the emotional flashbacks during fights happen as background panels to a scene in the foreground. This way it's incorporated into the action in a way.
I don’t like this power scaling where A>B, B>C, A>C. I like JJK because it’s more about tactics and intelligence rather than strength alone. In real life, everything is possible in a fight, especially MMA. Someone can be bigger, stronger, faster, and another fighter can hit a lucky punch and get the W. It’s more about right tactic and durability rather than overall skill. If you want a perfect example, UFC Guram Kutateladze vs Elves Brener is a perfect representation of a fighter being superior in skill and losing in the end.
@@MonitorComics of course man. I’ve had an idea to do a manga for a long time now, I’ve been planning the story for at least a year now, so I naturally stumbled across some of your videos, really helped me learn and understand some things. Keep up the good work man
As for lazy power scaling, the issue is less "bigger and badder every arc" and more that it's 1-dimensional scaling. A) I might have a 500# bench; that won't mean I can take a 500# punch. Strength is equated to durability too often, mainly for ease of writing. In the end, it's more understandable but still a flaw. B) More importantly, strength gets over homogenized down to 1 specific stat, with all other stats meaningless - the Dragonball effect. What's the difference between the Galick Gun, the MakakoSenpo, the Kamehameha, and the FinalFlash? Specifically, if Vegeta used each of those in an all-out attack at the same power level, which one would win out? What are the differences between them, what are their benefits? ... There really isn't a good answer other than "Kamehameha wins" simply because it's what the good guy uses. This lack of variety/ homogenization where each attack basically does the same thing, but with a different move to power it up, means that there's no room for writing strategically significant fights. Look at the destructo disk - one of the few attacks that wasn't focused on strict attack power, but on refining ki to a sharp enough level to cut through anything. That can be used strategically, and was for the Saiyans and Frieza. However, power crewp got so bad that against Cell, a destructo *literally broke apart on his neck.* Strength became so absolute that there was no room for strategy or technique; *only more strength to outdo it.* As such, all the side characters have nothing to contribute as only 1 person can be the strongest, and there's no other way to win. You can see this over-homogenization in lieu of actual choreography in plenty of other stories, Naruto being chief among them imo. Jujutsu Kaisen goes the opposite route in introducing asymmetrical abilities that can be weak against some and hyper strong against others. Hopefully we see more of that.
I think that's facts demon slayer did something good about power skills shinobu is one of the weakess harshira she can't even cut a head off a demon but she use poison and speed and mitsuri and flexibility uzui with weapons and bad thing about mha powers it that most of class 1a characters can be op just because a power cant destroy buildings doesn't mean it's weak you need brains and skill loom at mineta most people call him worthless and bad quirk but if he use something like weapons and speed he can do some very damage like most characters need some training or find a new skill or use it for your advantage
Me (wanting to write a story): "I wonder ifi t would be disliked that my main character would start strong, instead of starting as a weak underdog like most popular anime are." MonitorComics: "That's actually pretty cool." Me: "Oh! 😃👍"
I'm hoping to write a book and these videos help a lot because I take a lot of inspiration from manga and other media which inevitably would lead me to writing story tropes like these. My biggest problem could be the powerscaling gaps and power system complications since i aim to use multiple sistems. Plus I'm not very expirienced in writing so stuff like worldbuilding would completely slip my mind.
I do want to emphasize that these tropes are popular for a reason, so it's not BAD to still use them. Like I said in the video, newer stories will still come out using them so you shouldn't feel discouraged. This video was just meant to be me sharing tropes that I think are a bit common or overdone right now so it'd be interesting to see something a bit different, The title is a bit clickbaity, but I tried to make it clear in the video I don't HATE these tropes, there's plenty of anime that do them well!
Great video though one thing I wanna say is just like underdog, overdogs can be overplayed to. Like if it isn’t written well it can come off as kinda wish fullfillment. For example if Bakugo was the main character and become the number 1 hero it will be weird epically if he never grew and learned from his years of bullying Deku. And was still just a awful bully. Though I 100% agree with the other tropes. Sorry if this doesn’t make any scene or come off as rambling. Love your video and keep up the amazing work. Can’t wait for the next video. 🎉🎉
Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of that! It wasn't rambling, I see what you mean! With my bakugou point, I was mostly thinking along the lines of "the story would be completely different, he'd need to learn what it means to be a hero OUTSIDE of his strength (mannerisms, how to care, make friends, be happy, etc). He's such a complex character I feel like seeing the story through his eyes would be interesting!
@@MonitorComics Oh okay. Now I understand what you’re saying. And it would be really interesting to see Bakugo as the main character if done right. Keep up with the amazing video and can’t wait to see more 🎉🎉
@@MonitorComics Also can you explain what’s happening at Saturday AM? Cause I saw your community post on it but I don’t have twitter. Sorry if this a big ask
@@MonitorComicsBakugo does learn what it means to be a hero outside of strength in the story. Having him as the protagonist would be a terrible idea tbh, completely changing the themes of the story, and the dynamics in it.
underdog trope is no is literally historical that's a trope that has traversed centuries straight up, it ain't a bad trope it's just a universal subject
IMO except for the last one, all of those tropes can work if writen well. Bad writing is the problem, not the tropes themself. Well, maybe those tropes being overused is also part of the problem.
Thank you for saying that having them doesn’t make your work bad. I do have a couple of flashbacks that are triggered by what the other combatant says to the MC in the middle of their fight. It’s not a long flashback, but without it being said, in the context of when it was said, there is no other place it fits
Mine is when characters are in the middle of fighting then stop so one of the fighters explain a technique they're about to use on the opponent or when a side character is watching and explaining what's about to happen. Like shut up and continue scraping. I know this is fiction but IRL no one would do that
Trope 1: I don't think underdog protagonists are overused because they're often retconned to be set up for success all along. If anything, an underdog that achieved their goals without a single hint of destiny would be a breath of fresh air. Trope 2: I don't mind a villain to good guy story as long as it makes sense and the villain's actions weren't too extreme. Another reason why Zuko's redemption was great, at least for me, was because his actions weren't actually that evil outside of trying to capture Aang and even that had very good reasons for why he wanted to do it. He had every reason to go against the Fire Nation, so it made sense. Orochimaru? Absolutely not! Trope 3: If they are not capable of fighting, I don't see too much issue with this. If they are capable of fighting, then yeah maybe find a different victim just to mix things up. Trope 4: The only time this has worked well for me was the Kakashi vs Obito fight in the anime, and that was because it was literally part of the fight itself. You can't have that fight without the flashbacks. Almost every other fight in all of anime and manga? Please stop. Most of these scenes we've already seen. Unless they're new to give us more context, they're not needed. I think most of us still remember why they're fighting, we don't need reminders. Trope 5: Agreed. Heck, even if the side characters can't compare to the main ones, they should still at least have significant roles in the conflict. Maybe act as a spy, help with research, make them formidable when they fight as a team, have them take care of problems that the main characters aren't available to handle or lack the specific skills to handle in spite of their strength. But, keeping everyone somewhat in range of each other in power is still more preforable.
on the villain character turning good, in your zuko example you forgot to mention that he also showed redeeming qualities before he decided to join the good guys. which i think should be another key aspect for a villain to join the crew.
I would like to express my opinion regarding this tropes The underdog: I actually find endearing to see the growth of the MC from zero to hero, the point of such characters is to inspire people after all. However it's undeniable that is too generic. Of course this depends on how you present the character and his motivation to take on this path. I agree that they don't need to start from the very bottom lane. Villain to Friend: I do think that everyone deserves a second chance, however this also depends in how and why this villain is changing sides. Zuko is actually a good example. Orochimaru and Vegeta are characters could have stayed on the bad side, this could also have actually helped their respective franchises, especially when they didn't any real reasons to become good or those reason weren't explained Damsel in distress: Any character that is there only to be rescued or later forgotten for no reason is annoying to me regardless of their gender. which is why this is to me the greatest fault of Dragon Ball and Naruto. Flashbacks: Totally agree, after all there is this thing called pacing. Power Scaling: Power of friendship infinite boost is cr*p. One of the biggest misconceptions in action themed stories is that you can only defeat the villains is by being stronger than them. This is what lead to the insane power creeping of characters being suddenly able to blow up entire cities or even planets. In regular confrontations in real life or even games this is solved by something so simple as affinity or compatibility between the fighters, by taken into account simple details like physique, intelligence, skill, set of abilities, strategy and equipment. Even mastering simple or basic skills can characters a loooong way. Not everything needs to revolve around who has the biggest gun.
Especially regarding your last point, not every fight needs to rely solely on the main character. Strength in numbers and teamwork is also a factor. There is no reason for all of the side characters to just stand and watch the fight from the sidelines. Even a distraction can be useful.
The thing about Vegeta is that him not having a reason to join the heroes is a huge point about his character. Vegeta only joined them because he wanted to beat Goku. It was always framed as a temporary truce until that fight came back around. He's not implied to have actually become good throughout most of the series. He is eventually forced to confront other sides of himself when he loses a version of his son, pushing him to desire something beyond a fight. The Buu saga, for all the reasons it should be criticized, serves as the true redemption of Vegeta. When given an absolute chance to accomplish his goal, he jumps on it. He now has no reason to feel bad for striving for power, because he truly can win. But then, he's faced with the threat of losing his family again. He throws away his chance to be the strongest saiyan in order to ensure his son and wife have a chance. He even wants his rival to have a chance. Vegeta is one of he few characters that truly is well written in Dragon Ball. Not across the entire thing, but overall? His development has highlights that just make him shine in an otherwise surface level story.
Trope 1: I do like this trope but it's understandable. Trope 2: You've absolutely hit the nail on the head on this one. Trope 3: This trope is nothing, it serves zero purpose. It needs to be burned 100% with a 1000%. Trope 4: I actually agree with everyone on this. Flashbacks needs to placed anywhere in the story that's not in a battle especially when it's explained to the audience. Trope 5: It would be difficult to juggle supporting characters but it can be done.
Thanks for sharing you're thoughts! For the underdog trope I do like some too! I mostly put it in here because I've seen it used a few times. There's nothing inherently wrong with it if it's done well!
I got to look-out for these tropes when writing shonen manga. I am especially glad I do not have to write an underdog story as much as I like the original Naruto sub-series. Anyway, thanks for informing me more writing pitfalls of the shonen gerne!
I completely disagree on the flashbacks during battle scenes. If done well, it can show a character's motivation and show why they're fighting, and also being a breather for the action. Take a look at Naruto VS Sasuke in part 1 of Naruto. If it wasn't for the flashback explaining why Sasuke could end up killing Naruto, the fight wouldn't be nearly as tense and good.
Typically what I do to avoid poor power scaling is determine what I want the strongest characters to be and create a ranking system based on that, like how OPM has hero classes or JJK has Grades.
In The Little Mermaid, Ariel saves Eric twice, and he returns the favor by saving her, ultimately winning King Triton's favor since Triton now sees the good in humans. Their relationship is reciprocal, so Ariel is a poor example of a distressed damsel.
I stand corrected! I haven't watched those movies in years and just grabbed the first 3 disney princesses that had princesses I could think of. Another commenter mentioned this as well, thanks for the correction!
One reason why One Punch Man works so well is because of the fact that one trope that was done to death for so long is the trope of an overpowered protagonist who doesn't really have a very believable reason why they are so strong...they just are, so deal with it. Yet, it also plays on Saitama being an underdog with literally no talents or abilities whatsoever in the beginning of his journey, yet growing to a nonsensical degree in a span of only 3 years...to the point where now, even the literal god of that universe presumably could not defeat him. It is a brilliant way to poke fun at several tropes in manga, while at the same time demonstrating the problems that the tropes can present. The series does this, while simultaneously showing incredible character growth in everyone Saitama interacts with, the writing in that series is not without it's own issues, especially abrupt changes in the story without warning (redraws) however it is still one of the most engaging stories I have ever had the pleasure of reading, because Saitama himself isn't always the center of attention in the story, but many characters have had a chance to be explored, their flaws and holes in their philosophical proclivities exploited in each unique way, their characters grow and to have their shining moment in that series. There are so many other ideas that are blended and tied in so well that make it one of my favorite series of all time to date. Let's also not forget Yusuke Murata's beautiful visual story telling as well.
Sashomaru is the best redemption arc in my opinion he doesn't completely change as a character he just learns to care for someone and wants be better for that person but he still has that edge and is by all means the same person just with a different out look
@@MonitorComics I am a fan of dragon ball grew up watching the anime however I am not too familiar with genres or tropes so well as a beginner well I’ve been drawing and writing for a long time but I don’t always understand everything in it I’m different and do my own thing and kinda let the genre figures itself out
Though, when we get an actual underdog like yuji seeing him is more effective because he is not immediately op because of his special powers and doesn't always win.
Imo, underdog stories work best when there's no supernatural powers. I haven't watched many movies in a while but i do remember it working really well (like Rocky Balboa for example) And about power scaling, i don't really like it either hence why i don't have any supernatural powers at all. The only time I'll have a character with superpowers is a villain.
I might have to agree! I have personally always loved manga like Hajime No Ippo and Haikyuu where it is sports based because it is grounded in reality. That is a underdog story that hits close to home and has more weight to me at least. With superpowers it does make things more complicated, like a comment above said, some stories set it up as an underdog story but then you find out it isnt. Deku from MHA for example gets the worlds strongest power plus like 6 other ones. Naruto is revealed to be the 4th hokage's son with the nine tailed fox inside of him. At a certain point they do stop being underdogs!
I wish you provided some counter examples because this just feels like you don't like or are bored of classic shonen. Like, I left this video feeling the vibe you desire something fresh and unique.
That is exactly what the intention of this video was. This RU-vid channel is all about writing comics and manga, many of my viewers are creating shonen stories. Many of the story pitches I've heard sound exactly like what's already been done before, hence the "looking for something fresh and unique" vibe of the video. Obviously following these tropes doesn't make a anime "bad," there's plenty that I like WITH these tropes. Just sharing my opinion of tropes that feel overused nowadays
Isn't exactly a trope that I didn't like, but I would find interesting if a protagonist end the manga not achieving his main objective, like if at the end of Naruto, Naruto give up on being hokage because he noticed that he's not the best suited for the position, or if at the end of One Piece Luffy didn't became the king of the pirates, but he's okay because his real dream was realized
That IS an interesting thought! I am sure there are stories out there where characters realize what they thought they wanted wasn't what they actually needed!
@@MonitorComics actually is something that I'm planning to do in a manga that I'm planning, at the end, after defeating the main villain, the main character refuses the throne saying that he was too immature and knew too little about the world, letting his rival become the king and embarking on a journey of self-knowledge
Honestly, what I tend to dislike about Shonen is that any fight in them is utterly predictable. And so anything between the start of the fight and the end of the fight becomes just time-wasting to me. - When a new villain shows up with a big spit-eating grin on their face and a casual air, you know full well they're going to mop the floor with the heroes with 0 effort. Yet the heroes always think they're going to grit their teeth and somehow nail this guy/gal. You also know the villain is either going to be playing with them just for fun or some deus ex machina is going to save the idiot heroes from certain death. - Similarly, the hero's first attack never, never, never, never, NEVER works. It's always just there to show how tough the bad guy is by tanking their biggest move. But after so many years of this, heroes still have the nerve to look surprised when it happens. - On that note, when going into a fight situation, if there is any chance...ANY chance at all...that the heroes could lose to the villain and still escape and allow the plot to proceed, then that is what is going to happen. The ONLY time the heroes will finally triumph over the villain in a fight will be when 'Failure Is Not An Option'. - The villains never start by going all out in a fight. Ever. Not because they're overconfident...but because the writer knows they'd turn their heroes into a stain in 2 seconds if they did. They can ALWAYS bring out more power. On that note, the villains never start by sending out their strongest minions but only in ascending difficulty. Sometimes that kinda, sorta makes sense...the whole killing a fly with a bazooka idea...but it makes utterly no sense when the villain has a personal vendetta or desire to see the hero dead. Why not guarantee success rather than leave it to chance? Why not just do it yourself? ("Demon Slayer" would have lasted all of six episodes if Muzan had just killed Tanjiro in the street when they met...) - Villains, shockingly enough, always have "glass jaws". I'm serious. They'll beat on the heroes for several episodes straight in totally one-sided battles and then the hero will land one ultimate move on them and they'll instantly be down for the count. It makes the villains lesser when you think about it. (Everyone talks about how Luffy vs. Katakuri was such a great fight... It was Luffy purposely letting himself get hit for a day straight to learn to read the guy's moves. Katakuri got hit maybe a half a dozen times before he went down while Luffy was still standing after taking hundreds of hits. Really...Katakuri was a wimp.) It feels like such a cheap way to end a fight. Of course, there are the occasional exceptions to these rules...and those are my favorites...but these ones get played out too much.
@@MonitorComicsif zoro was the main character for one piece then he wouldn't have made it past arlong Park or even the baratie be the villains were stronger than him
Question if I try to make a female as a main character of a shoen anime would they put it under that or a different group because that group is meant for males mostly
One trope that isn’t really only in manga but in media in general that I dislike. And I don’t know if it has a name or not so I’ll try to describe it the best way I can. It is when you have the villain that was an outcast and wants to change society due to that. But the writers will have the villain kill or murder people in order to make sure the audience doesn’t agree with him. Like Kill-monger or that villain group in Falcon and the winter soldier. Cause it feels like the author wants to have the status quo question without actually changing it. Sorry if this doesn’t make any sense.
seems that most of these tropes stem from power/battle type shonen stories, and one of my all time favorite mangas that is a "shonen" called Alice In Borderland, which is set in a cruel apocalyptic world where people were sent there and have to survive these cruel games, its violent, horrific, but it's a very human story, u meet a lot of characters and the story doesn't try to redeem some characters when shown their story but u learn where they come from and why they do what they do, u dont have to agree with them, some try to atone for their actions, others die the way that they are, and others try to change the way they are, there many different kind of stories u can find within the shonen demographic, this is a story that isn't like any other "shonen", it doesn't have a super strong MC who tries to get physically stronger or gain powers, no, it has a teenager boy as an MC who has hated his life living with the pressure of becoming an adult and carrying expectations with a father who's neglected him bc he cant perform academically well unlike his younger brother who he is now under his shadow, he simply is trying to find the reason for the purpose of his life and continue to keep living despite being in a world full of despair, u learn the many perspectives people may have on life and as to why they're alive and living, however, u also learn that some dont have those answers, I'd highly recommend it if u havent read it
I love Alice in Borderland! The Netflix adaptation was also really good! I was unaware that it was published in a shonen magazine though, I should have looked into it more! And YES I do agree that this video mostly focused on battle shonen, but there were a few sports shonen like hajime no ippo and slice of life shonen like We Never Learn sprinkled in the B-Roll. I definitely could've discussed that side of shonen more though!
I dislike the trope of overly powerful teenager who saves the world. Pretty much the opposite of the first trope you mentioned lol. That's why I could never vibe with Ed from FMA even tho everyone loves him. I'm here just reading manga and tryna work on myself and this guy is already a famous alchemist at like 15. I'm a sucker for guys like Kevin from Billy Bat. The man is an average mangaka in his late 30s or so who gets thrown into a conflict and his first reaction is to become an alcoholic. He's definitely not fit for a shonen though lol.
My biggest gripe with this video is you talk about the first 2 tropes as if they're worn out and wrung while using the manga that set the trend. Another thing being that #2 isn't really a gripe with a trope, its more like you dont like shitty writing but fundamentally in storytelling an antagonist has 3 routes. Becoming an ally, becoming neutral, and staying an antagonist. Other than that nice video
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! With the first point, I was mostly talking about it being overdone (in my opinion of course), a lot of my audience is aspiring comic or manga creators so when I hear about their projects a lot of them tend to sound super similar, that's a common thing among amateur creators though. I DEFINITELY should have made that more clear in the video. But the underdog trope HAS been done a lot, especially around the time those older ones set the trend. Nowadays it's up for debate, but it's popular for a reason you know. There's plenty of anime that have underdogs that I like so I tried to be clear it isn't "BAD" if you use it, it's just about how it's used.
Cage of Eden???? Bro really is cultured I don’t see anyone talk about this Manga. It’s not like it’s a bad manga at all I just wish it got that popularity it deserved in the West or at least an Anime
RIGHT! I enjoyed it a lot up until when it got cancelled. The last arc definitely suffered from it. Wish I could talk more in depth about niche manga like that but I learned over time if I don’t use mainstream examples (dbz, naruto, etc) people don’t know what I’m talking about 😭 Love Kouhei’s return in Cage of Eden though. Such a cool moment for his character!!
I inherently disagree with you everytime you brought up dragon ball. Vegeta's redemption had already started after the Namek Saga, and slowly but surely, Vegeta became a good character at the end. We dont need to see a whole episode about Vegeta's redemption Altho I agree with your statements about db being bad at power scaling, the options you used are pretty bad. No one can match Goku and Vegeta because they are saiyans and even the weaker saiyans have growth bigger than normal humans. Also, characters like Piccolo, Gohan and Broly can match Goku and Vegeta in power
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! Like I said in the video, I don't HATE any of these, there are plenty of underdog stories that I like. Same with a few villain characters who became good at some point. Mostly wanted to talk about things I've seen super often and offer ways to stand out a bit
My least favorite trope is the way a lot of these authors write female characters. I was so invested in kagurabachi until they introduced their first f character because ofcourse shes a 2dimensional bit character who can only talk or think about the main character.
I don’t really understand the argument against underdogs, I mean no matter what you always know damn well they’re gonna succeed, they’re the main character.
Like I said in the video, a story isn't "bad" because they have them, there are plenty of anime and manga with them that I like. I was mostly trying to argue that it feels a bit overdone right now. Whenever people send me pitches for the comics and manga they're making, they all feel for the most part feel like repeats of each other. That's what inspired this video, but I could have made it more clear so that's my fault
Any trope could be good if you study it and use correctly ( except power scaling, never really work anywhere i mean, did you even know one piece have one, I did learn that like a week ago)
Half of my villans become at least Friendlier after being defeated... Yeyyy (I love villans in all series Im sorry) I agree those points are really common and are not so surprising nowadays. Its the same case with the ending "...and then I woke up and it was all a dream". When it was first used it was revolutional, but if someone used it now, we would feel very annoyed.
I think the villains becoming "good" can be good if done right. For example it's always hype when characters who hate each other need to team up for a certain battle!
Good video, but I basically disagree with most of the video. 1. Underdog protagonist is great, because that is usually who people love to root for. It's nice to have shows where characters actually work their way up, it's also a good inspiration for younger kids growing up. You used Kenichi as an example here and I miss having a protagonist like him. 2. Villains turn good can be good or bad depends on the writing and the circumstances. Not every villains can be redeemed and not every villains should be redeemed. It's still good if used sparingly. 3. This can get really annoying if done wrong, I kind of agree with here, though I have no problem with it if it's not done poorly. 4. There is a criticism I see a lot for Demon Slayer, where the demons get a backstory after they've been defeated and dying, which make the backstory "pointless" because they're going to be irrelevant after that anyway. (I disagree) I think most shows avoid backstory at the beginning of the fight to keep a level of mystery surrounding the villains/antagonists, and some of them don't want to do it at the end of fight because some people may think it's pointless at that point, so the best way is to do it at the peak point of the conflict to best explain the villains/antagonists motivation. I have no problem with the placement of backstory if the backstory has a point to make. There are some flashback in Demon Slayer that said basically nothing about any of the characters and serve no purpose. (not the ones the demons got) 5. I do not care about this one. Powerscaling is not something in my opinion that the author should concern themselves with. The story is way more important and if the story dictates how the fight is going to go. My problem with Fairy Tail is less about the powerscaling but more so about not giving the characters their just due. One last point, Luffy is the perfect protagonist for One Piece. Zoro would not nearly make as interesting of a protagonist as Luffy. A deuteragonist role suits Zoro better.
To be fair a lot of the time probably halve of anime and manga the female role is stronger than the male role even in older works were the male is the princess that needs rescuing... which also works and the same rules apply incase anyone wanted to flip the script and a little confused.
Luffy is not an underdog in any sense. He is the son of the most wanted, grandson of the hero and brother of the son of the pirate king. In addition to being born with a special power and having eaten the rarest and strongest fruit, he is anything but an underdog, he is a super favorite
Underdogs stories will very often be better than a story that features a dominant protag, as growth and adventure/action go hand in hand. It’s not a bad trope at all in my opinion
That is a good point! I don't hate underdogs either, I think I made the title of the video too clickbaity. A better more accurate term would've been "overused" in my opinion. Nothing wrong with it, I just see it a lot especially in work created by up and coming creators
I agree with pretty much all of what you said. Although, I don't think that Naruto is a good example of an underdog protagonist. We are told that he is an underdog, but we were shown almost the exact opposite.
That is fair! Even Deku eventually stops being an underdog when he gets handed the top power plus 6 other ones. At a certain point they do stop being underdogs
It's about how one uses the trope for me. Though I'd have to say, the standard bland looking MC trope isn't as appealing compared to stylish MCs. Even though it's not a trope, creators really need to come up with more unique fanservice scenes. The most out played ones are probably Hot spring and bath or clumsy fall moments. Locker room type stuff in school settings are also just annoying at this point.
In my opinion, Demon Slayer did do the underdog trope, but what i mostly like about it instead of tanjiro being shame or anything people dont think he can do it because sypathy and then mist harshira doesn't like him because of having a demon sister sometimes you need to twist tropes in to something or have better writings like denji and yuji and tanjiro list goes on you can have the same tropes but do it different and wait after demon slayer does the backstory after the fight which people hate and now they doing in the fight now people hate most anime gets crap on for anything and tropes to you have no idea
Demon Slayer is an interesting example, I like to describe it as a "textbook shonen done right." Nothing about it is particularly unique in my opinion, but it still tells a solid story, has solid characters, cool designs, and a great anime adaptation. It does a lot of the textbook stuff right, making it stand out even today
