New York Public Library interview with Pete Townshend on October 8, 2012. He's responding to an inquiry about Jimi Hendrix at the time of the Monterey Pop Festival. 8/25/23 NO MORE NEW COMMENTS ARE BEING APPROVED.
Pete Townshend said "If you didn't see him . . . I'm sorry". Well, I know exactly what he means because I was in the support band to him in Boston in 1967. He was a shy, polite gentleman and was in the next dressing room to us. He actually had a go on one of our 12string Rickenbackers and played it although it was strung right handed. I will be 80 in August and will never forget this amazing phenomenon. 🥁
I was born in 1966, I seen hendrix in 1986 in a dream, he said "dude put that guitar down and get a job, because you will never be 1 in a millionth the player I am." I did, thanks Jimi.
I saw a video with Ron Wood saying he once shared a flat with Jim. He, Wood, said the thing about Jim being left handed, he could play right handed, as well, and played better right handed than he, Wood, could play I guess for a professional musician, especially, that would be demoralizing.
Pete is a great storyteller. I could listen for hours to him. This man has known all the great names. To me, Townshend is the godfather of English rock. He wrote Tommy at age 23... Great composer, great guitar player, great performer. Living legend. His music will be regarded as 20th century classical music.
on various other places on you tube. i say the who and townshend can do little or no wrong and get plenty of blowback. i tell them to find some pete and roger loving friends. you are exactly the kind of a friend i want for them
Love Pete. Love The Who. No doubt he's a great storyteller, but he has a tendency to rewrite history. By all accounts that's not exactly the peacefully encounter that occurred, as John Phillips and Derek Taylor have said and written about. Hell there's footage of Pete from 1973 describing the the coin toss scenario a bit more aggressively. Never the less it's still entertaining.
@@rickarnold6704 If you loved seeing Jimi then take a look at Stevie Ray Vaughan playing Texas Flood live at El Mocambo. Jimi was Stevies idol and I think you might enjoy watching this other guitar genius.
I was 12 going on 13 when I saw Jimi live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Found the original concert poster online and had a t-shirt made. All these years later I can still remember that show😱
My missus and I were walking along the Seine and came across a guy selling photographs in A4 size. There was a photo of Jimi Hendrix, among others, and I said to him; "Who took these photos"? He replied that he had, when he was a photographer in the late 60s. I bought the Hendrix photograph. It sits above the kitchen table in my apartment in Adelaide SA. Just a quick snapshot of Jimi walking past. A real treasure.
Very classy of Peter Townsend to acknowledge Jimi Hendrix to be the leading rock artist of his generation. I went to a Hendrix concert in a pretty small theater in Canada -- the size of a movie theater, if anybody remembers what they were. The Jimi Hendrix Experience had their wall of Marshall amps, along with various pedals for Jimi to use to alter the sound of his Stratocaster, and a reel-to-reel tape recorder which Jimi used to play multi-track leads: a pre-recorded lead by Jimi on tape, and Jimi playing over top of it in person. We were close enough to the stage to see Jimi's facial expressions, and to summarize his mood I'd say he was relaxed and having a really good time playing for an adoring audience. Not many realized at the time that Jimi had struggled for years to be taken seriously, living in poverty and having to move the England to get paying work. (At a get-to-know-you jam session in London with Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, and other top Brits in the rock scene, Jimi left them speechless.) At this 1968 concert I attended Jimi was riding high, all his venues sold out. Their opening band was The Soft Machine, another totally disruptive force in rock who ended up transitioning to jazz fusion. I still have their first three albums. I played keyboards full-time back then, and The Soft Machine's keyboard player, Michael Rattledge, was acknowledged to be the best rock keyboard player in Britain. Onstage, Jimmy would banter a bit between songs but he knew what we were all there for: to hear cuts from his "Are You Experienced?" album. I know what Townsend meant when he noted the aura around Jimi as he performed at Monterey Pop. It was as if his whole being radiated music -- music that had never been heard before and that once heard, changed our perception of what rock could be. I would like to know what today's Gen Z rock music fans think of Jimi. Does he resonate with them as he did with us? Or is he ancient history? Hendrix pretty much invented the psychedelic sound but already during his 1968 tour there were rumors he was evolving it to be blusier, with less ornamentation. After Jimi's death at age 27, along with Janis and Brian Jones and other great talents who transformed the genre, over the 1970s there was a large-scale dumbing down of rock music, with, if course, a few notable exceptions.
It will undoubtedly please you to know that today's Gen Z rock music fans are in awe of Hendrix. Of course, some don't like or appreciate him. But look up reaction videos of Hendrix. Young people look at his performance and are like "WTF?!?!?! How did I miss this??" The looks on their faces are priceless.
I've heard him say that Jimi said something like 'well if I'm going on after you, then I'm pulling out all the stops!" And then he jumped up on that chair and played some incredible, amazing stuff right there. I think he just overlooked that tidbit here.
That's what they say on the Monterey Pop Festival video. (still have the VHS) I think Pete has altered the story here, to make himself sound a bit more generous. In reality, every major player was afraid of Jimi's skills, and didn't want to risk following him on stage. (Because he would be so much better, there's no way you could "follow" his act.) It didn't have anything to do with Pete acknowledging that Jimi was such an important artist at the time. I love both players, but that's just silly!
Excellent. I saw Jimi two times, both in South Florida and I've seen the WHO 3 times. Two times with Keith and one time with Kenny. All wonderful musicians and a major impact on my life. I've been a drummer since 1964 and I still play.Thank You for this Great Post.
This gave me chills. Jimi is rightly considered the best guitarist ever, but that does not take away from Pete Townshend's and The Who's influence as one of the greatest rock bands of all time.
I saw Jimi four times and Pete describes it beautifully. I went to see him first time at a matinee in Liverpool Empire UNDER DURESS. Not a fan. He opened with Spanish Castle Magic. Otherworldly. We came out, bought tickets from a tout, and went straight back in for the second show. He was magnificent yet lovable all at the same time.
After all he’s been through, he’s amazingly calm, clear headed and articulate. Probably one of the most intelligent and sensitive rock stars there’s ever been.
Pete was there and of course I was not. I’ve studied Hendrix for many years and story for the most part is different. On the Movie Documentary on Jimi back in 1973 Pete tells a different story.
Pete was always jealous that Jimi did the guitar destroying thing…but he has mellowed in his story here. Jimi set his guitar on fire so he went beyond Pete.
The way I remember it; Pete wanted to go first because he wanted the audience to see him smash his guitar before Jimi smashed his. Jimi went on after Pete and set the audience and his guitar on fire...but he did let me stand next to it and I chopped it down with the edge of my hand☺
I got to see Hendrix at Balboa Stadium San Diego and the Who at the San Diego Concourse basement both were great memories. Hendrix’s hands encompassed the neck of a guitar, it wasn’t like he played notes or chords it was more like the instrument was part of him. His hands floated over the neck effortlessly.
Pete Townshend never considered himself to be a gifted technical guitarist. In fact, he's gone on record as saying that the real 'lead guitarist' in The Who was the Ox, not himself. This is why he was humbled, in a musical sense only, by Jimi Hendrix the guitarist. If the festival PTs referring to herein featured songwriting, everyone, including Jimi, certainly would've played before Pete. He is clearly one of the finest writer's to come along during the great Pop Music era.
Well I am sure that Pete is sincere but I saw Jimi and The Who in the same year (1968) and I can tell you that The Who was a formidable band and had no reason not to close the show. Remember that while The Experience had Jimi, The Who had Daltry, Enwistle and Moon. They were something to behold.
At their peak, in the very early 1970s, they were absolutely the most powerful band going!...I witnessed both the Jimi Hendrix Experience, and The Who.....Jimi was the better guitarist, but the Who as a unit were more powerful than Jimi's group.
Exactly. Both were great live acts. But Hendrixx was essentially a one-man show on stage while you had three of the greatest showmen on stage: Pete, Roger and Keith.
Thanks setting the record right man. In 73-4 I toured Europe like many young males looking for adventure. Saw Jethro Tull, Mountain and 3 days with Pink Floyd.
Hendrix was one of a kind, changed guitar playing forever. Pete wasn't in the same league as a guitar player, but I'd argue he was the better all around musician. Albums like Quadrophenia, Tommy and Who's Next showcase the most original writing and arranging of the classic rock era, and are mostly Townsend's creation.
He was a greater songwriter no question. Pete was like George Harrison they may not have been Clapton or Hendrix, whis? Except Jimmy Page LOL,but they didn't give you annoying 10 minute guitar solo's either. Everything they did was musical.
Pete was not far off about Jimi being "from another planet". I call him a time traveler from the future who was doing things with a guitar that we in the present could not even understand. There is a connection between artist and instrument when things get to that level, and then the instrument does whatever the artist things or feels or commands. That's it, and it's beyond the rest of us. We just play notes while Jimi played ideas.
Pete was very generous about compliments to legend Hendrix but me as a musician/ guitarist also have enormous respect for Pete Thowsend for his composing arts. Tommy, Quadrophenia, Who's Next are masterpiece of rock music. I wish i could play these cord barages. He is genius on his own also.
I think there is something to recognize here... when Jimmi was 'Experencing'... folks in his presence 'experienced' his feelings. This is profound! Pete felt it... He GOT it. I ask you... How is it that 'WE' can feel someones' experiences when they are tripping? Is there a group connection to our brains? Have you ever been... Have you ever been... To electric Lady land.....
I agree with Pete if you never saw Jimi live you just couldn't appreciate his abilities and greatness. I was fortunate to see him live in April 1969 in Philadelphia. He was truly a Rock "God".
I saw him twice...and after he died, I continued to go to Rock concerts for several more years--NOBODY I witnessed had the charismatic power and skill of Jimi Hendrix...he did really seem to become larger than Life, onstage. I am proud to say he was from Seattle--even if he seemingly did not like Seattle much. That would be due to his very sad upbringing as a child.
Actually, this story contradicts that one he told many years ago in that documentary on Jimi in which he said that he and Hendrix got into an argument as to who would follow whom. He said that he told Jimi that "we are NOT going to follow you, and that's that.' Jimi just got up and played some incredible guitar backstage and said, "If we open for you then I am going to pull all the stops,:" Pete said he realized that they couldn't follow his act and allowed Jimi to play after them.
Just watched a NOVA special that gave tons of evidence on how fallible our memories are. Every time you remember a scene from the past, you change it a bit.
30 years ago was reading the accounts of both them not wanting to follow the other cuz they both had legendary followings and Great Expectations an amazing respect for each other
Pete is a musical genius & gracious on his recall of Jimi.Jimi smashed & then burned his guitar at Monterey, he learned this from the Who for the shock effect.he would never have done that in New York as "Jimmie James & the Blue Flames". I love Pete's recollection & happy that he is still going strong, yay!
He's right about Jimi. Most only know him from hearing the music. He was more than that. When what you do puts a scare into Pete and Clapton. Its not BS.
Jimi Hendrix was an early idol of mine partly because he was left handed and so am I. But Jimi was a product of his era quite literally, Jimi ended when the psychedelic ended. Completely an explosive and unsustainable phenomenon. Jimi Hendrix was his stage presence. And Pete describes how influential he was to shape the Monterey Pop festival in 1967. Every second and minute of that era was important and groundbreaking to expand our consciousness still going on today.
If you read a little more history you'll find that Jimi was right handed. His father Al bought him an acoustic when he was little and he naturally started playing left handed. His Dad never corrected him. Thats where the legend began.
The truth is Pete didn't want the Who to be upstaged by Jimi's powerful stage show, (including his destroying his guitar at the end, which would make the Who look like copycats of Jimi).
No. Everybody knew The Who had been smashing guitars for a few years by then. Hence Mama Cass's comment. So, everybody knew Jimi was doing what The Who had been doing but, on stage, he did it with more style, elegance, and managed to play a tune. The Who smashing guitars was an outworking of Townshend's art school philosophy and was destructive, Hendrix managed to make smashing a guitar constructively melodic. That's what PT was getting at
That’s probably true but Jimi shamelessly ripped off Pete. Marshalls, feedback, guitar destruction was all Pete’s gig really. No artist wants to go on after all their tricks have been ripped off.
It wasn't about respect. It was fear. Pete KNEW Jimi would steal the show and he didn't want to follow that. It did balance better for both but Jimi DID still steal the show.
Jimmy likewise really didn't want to follow The Who and was very nervous and that's why he so quickly adopted the idea of letting his guitar on fire as a stunt to compensate for any insecurities
Good as they were, none of the English players I'd seen - Clapton, Beck, Townshend - prepared one for Hendrix. It wasn't a question of _degrees_ of ability.. but a _qualitative_ difference: the English guys all seemed like highly-skilled workers applying themselves to a task.. while Hendrix seemed a natural. Ferocious power and great delicacy side by side - delivered with equal nonchalance. They seemed to cost him nothing. Jimi had mastered technique so totally it was transparent, which allowed his playing to become a direct expression of _personality_ .. rather than a brilliantly executed performance. --- John Perry
I play down the local pub, it is what it is, generally get a good, or at least, polite reception. Sometimes someone will come in and be awesome and I’m put in to follow them. Hate that feeling! So I know where he’s coming from. Bit disappointing he can’t admit the fear even now 😅
Jerry Garcia talked about playing at Monterey, after The Who and before Hendrix. He said the GD played terribly and in between those two monstrous performances, they were utterly forgettable. He had a great sense of humor about it. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ypDTyw1bcys.html
I heard that Hendrix stood on the chair and declared that he would literally blow away the Who with this performance…slightly nuanced differences in the interpretation maybe?…
Doesn’t sound like Hendrix, being that narcissistic. By all accounts he had a rather brotherly attitude to other bands and fellow musos. But whatever. No big deal either way.
This is amazing. I just recall Pete saying to Jimi, "We can't follow you" and Jimi ignoring him. Brings this to light in a great way. Wish i could find Monterey Pop with Jimi or Ravi. both were great.
Jimi made Pete feel inadequate and inferior as a guitarist. Pete’s strength is his metronome like rhythm guitar playing, which kept The Who from going off the rails live. Jimi’s fluidity on rhythm guitar, based in his R&B roots, is something Pete (and the rest of his peers Clapton, Beck, Richards, Page) could appreciate but couldn’t remotely approach. Pete was the weakest lead guitar player of them all and that added to his insecurity, especially vis a vis Jimi. Don’t get me wrong, I love Townsend‘s rhythm guitar playing - Live at Leeds is a great example of his power and mastery. No one else could have held that all together, steady as a rock with a mad man like Moon on the drums, with Entwhistle off to the races with him. Listen to Young Man Blues.
Exactly correct. I doubt Townsend was referencing himself with Jimi as a lead guy...just as a guitar player in general. But I love what he says...everything I have is his now. Townsend is a true visionary as we all know....an artist composer poet all the way. But he accepted the truth and saw the absolute alien angel demon guitarist that was Hendrix. He describes the effect of seeing him so well....but yea, Townsend UNPARALLELED as a rhythm player in all of rock. N
People misunderstand The Who; Pete is the timekeeper. He occupies the role the drummer would normally have. This allowed Keith to make his usual flourishes and allowed John to make his lead lines.
Yeah, Pete was a great rhythm player, I loved his sound, but when it came to soloing, he did not have the fluidity and ability to wail like Page, Clapton or Hendrix.
Pete's stories tend to be apocryphal, embellished. The creative geniuses can't resist coloring their memories with a few dazzling touches. If The Who had Jimi's amps, the final score would've been a little closer. And they are both my all-time favorite acts.
Both are great live acts. And I don't care what Pete says here. As a live act, The Who > Jimi. Or, at the very least equivalent. Jimi was essentially a one-man show. While we know that Keith, Roger and Pete commanded the stage.
Jimi kinda ripped their teenybopper friends to shreds, kinda makes it easy to see why he left the tour early(putting it kindly). Don't know who came up with tgat zinger of an idea.
The teenie boopers came to see the monkees , they were not impressed by jimi, I read during the concert jimi flipped them off when he noticed the audience was displeased with him
"I'm One" is such a great song, demonstrates why Townshend is one of the best songwriters of the rock era. HIs telling of this story is a bit different from what he says about it in the film "Jimi Hendrix", where it was more like, "Nope, no way no how am I going to follow THAT GUY!", and that Hendrix was more deferential and saying "Oh no, I can't follow you guys." Hard to know which is more accurate, as Pete, ever the artist, isn't known to let accurate accounting get in the way of his creative muse.😃
Don't agree with Pete's description of Hendrix's physical appearance- he was extremely beautiful and dressed amazingly. And this is coming from a straight male.
What a fantastic period for the art of music & so many bands & so many expressions within it......alas it's all over now folks because popular music has been globalized.....all the freedom has been taken away.
Pete rarely said anything nice about his contemporaries, and that includes Jimi. Plenty of old interviews out there about how mad he was that Jimi stole is guitar smashing antics. And that comment to Mama Cass is very hard to believe. Too bad she can't confirm that.
My goodness! Such elegance from Pete! Jimmy will be the best electric guitar player ever. And every electrical guitarist knows that. Like a Picasso and Mozart. A touch of God.
Obviously I've never met Hendrix but the various photos I've seen of Hendrix and i personally know people that knew or met him he never looked like a trash man, his afro was right on time and he didn't look dirty at all to me. I think Pete just has to find a way of hating on this dude because he completely destroyed him to his face......
It would have been more socially responsible to specify what he meant in memory of Jimi. I read elsewhere Pete's issue was Hendrix's dandruff. It ruined the effect for Pete when he saw him up close. The whole thing amuses me.
Yes, years before this Pete told a different story. Appears they disagreed on the appearance order and it got a little heated. Pete said Jimi claimed he would pull out all the stops and make Pete regret it. As great as Pete is on guitar, he seems to have discomfort with his peers who may be equals or greater in popularity.
Honestly Pete Townshend has changed this story at least 3 or 4 times. Don't get me wrong I am a big Who fan ... Also the The Grateful Dead came on in between The Who & Hendrix. I believe they did toss a coin about the order though.
I LOVE the Who, I LOVE Jimi Hendrix : they were both insanely great artists whose excellence remains relevant and compelling all these decades later, HOWEVER , if you watch the video of Monterey Pop , I don't see how you miss how Ravi Shankar stole the show. No theatrics; they just sat on the stage and played AWESOME MUSIC while blissfully smiling at each other.
One of my big regrets was reading that bloody book 'Who Am I'...and as for your discourteous note, you can do absolutely whatever you want to do. It's your channel.
You don't see all the comments I'm not approving and am removing instead. I expected a few thousand views and 15 comments. The attention this video is getting is ridiculous.
I can't imagine Pete would have as many friends as your typical rock star. He seemed notoriously difficult to get along with, though not as bad as Ginger Baker.
Good, because he sucks. You wouldn't want to tolerate how phony he is - in fact, that's why I had to abruptly end the edit here, because he followed up with a statement that was so stupid Pete made everyone laugh at him.
@@Nominay True, but after hearing how Buddy Miles and Billy Cox helped Jimi go into a different musical direction, I'm sure that a power trio with Moon and Entwistle would have been fantastic. Just fantasising, that's all.
@@jimmycrackcorn2516 Wasn't he more of a straight rock beat drummer? Mitchell is more interesting for Jimi as a jazz drummer who had no problem with versatility.
I think Jimi Hendrix honed his amazing skill on the guitar, and his amazing abilities as a musician, in the competitive chitlin circuit, where you were out if you didn't deliver. Jimi could easily and stylishly do the work of 2 or 3 musicians, rhythm, lead, singing, although the best falsetto singing came later (Have you ever been...). Lead guitar comes from the legacy of people like Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. Flashy and cutting edge, fast and furious. Check out "Blue N Boogie" by those two from 1953.
Before the Chitlin circuit he was already acknowledged as the best guitar player in Washington state. He played locally there in bands before joining the Army. Most of Hendrix's progression and skill was realized in his first 3 years playing.
Pete Townsend stories always change, he exaggerates and embellishes. In prior tellings he made the meeting more confrontational-two equals battling for the closing headline slot. But, as he ages he seems to concede Jimi's overall superiority. Time will do that to even the most arrogant of men. Jimi was supernatural.
What Pete says @3:00. There has been some spec that Jimi possessed synesthesia. Even the language of Purple Haze or The Wind Cries Mary "the wind is drearily sweeping" suggests it. This could have been something more than just having dropped a couple of purple microdots (was acid produced in microdots back then?). I know it was everywhere by 77, microdots(!) ,blotter (!!), yellow windowpane (!!!). I digress. And flashback. Please don't overdo it young ones. You can be left with permanent visual distortions. And if you MUST try psychedelics do yourself a favour and start low dose for first experience, be in a safe place with safe people one of whom stays sober. You will need 12 hours, less for shrooms. Never do speed or opiates. I don't know anything about the newer drugs but trip advising sites are online if you are going to do them no matter what. I'm not advocating, this is harm reduction.
@@maximusindicusoblivious180 In the year that Toronto got a baseball team they came out with Blue Jay Blotter. Did not touch LSD again until my 60th birthday a few weeks ago.Timothy Leary blotter! Have a decent spring!
Yeah it was more , Pete heard that he was on after and flipped saying he wasn't gonna be shown up , Jimi got on the chair played a blinder and said i'm not going on after you .... haha
This whole thing reminds me of an interview I saw with Eric Clapton once, who was set to follow Stevie Ray Vaughan in a show. After Stevie went out and just lit the stage on fire, Eric said that he turned to his bandmate before going on and said, “how in the hell am I supposed to follow that!” That tells you something about just how good Stevie Ray Vaughan was. When even Clapton was afraid to follow him.
@@Nominay You can't predict shows. I saw Wishbone Ash warm up for The Who in 73. They blew me away. Both bands of that period still do. We're just lucky to have them with us, and Jimi at least recorded. And as for people picking apart these memories by the players, enjoy it if you can, otherwise, just get a life. They were in it and you were not.
Also when Jeff Beck decided to let SRV come on stage and join him in a song. Then Jeff was fighting for his life to follow Stevie's solos. It's on YT. Jeff looks like a cornered rat at times and has difficulty shining. After SRV kills it, smiles at Jeff, Jeff looks like someone just stole his car. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-84_UvByGDkM.html
It's Jordan (basketball), Ali (boxing), Hendrix (lead guitar), The Beatles (singer/songwriters), Shakespeare (playwriting) and James Jamerson (bass guitar) who are so far as of 2023 are the Greatest Of All Time in their field. I'm not familiar with other sports, drumming has a 3 way tie with Reni, Moon and Bonham; and there isn't a GOAT for Tv and Movies just yet.
@@Donan777 Absolutely correct! (Well it was some STP that Owsley gave him, but the fact remains that he was not tripping during The Who's performance at Monterey).
Is Pete really dissing Jimi? Didn’t you hear Pete call Jimi godlike, with the skills of a Shaman, an elegant performer, the most profoundly important artist of the generation?
Eh. To my ears, Pete is dismissing Jimi's albums. Which, again to my ears, are WAY better than the Who's albums. Jimi as a live act was great, but what endures are the recorded versions of the songs.
@@aquamarine99911 No Because he is talking about a live show with Hendrix at Monterey Pop Festival. Anyone can tell Hendrix made remarkable music from his very first record Are You Experienced? In the mid 70's, bizarrely, a Toronto TV station ran Monterey Pop in the middle of a school day while I was on my lunch break. Maybe they figured all those hippy gals were now bored housewives. First time I ever played hooky. Told my home room teacher that my guppies had given birth and were eating their young so I had to stay home to protect the babies. She said "don''t lie to me, I know fish lay eggs!" I made her ask the science teacher and got away with it. She was so embarrassed about the false accusation that I did not not require a note from my parents Jimi truly was inspirational.
Townshend never wanted to have to follow Hendrix - probably the only reason he agreed to do Woodstock was he knew Hendrix was the headliner for that festival and he would be the final performer ..
Pete Townshend does not typically give accolades easily, so his favorable view of Jimi Hendrix carries some weight. Hendrix was the greatest performer of his time, doing things sonically that no one had done previously and still a mystery today. And, while Pete acknowledges that Jimi had playing ability that he himself did not have, I can't see Hendrix pulling off what Pete did with The Who. Try corralling Keith Moon and John Entwistle. Not sure Jimi could have done that. Pete's guitar work on Live at Leeds should be a thesis work on the "angry guitar".
He is one sour rock star. I have rarely if ever hear him say anything good about his pears. I don't even believe him to be genuine. There's always innuendoes, double meaning and a kind of bitterness and jealousy that comes out in interviews. Always second, never first Pete....you've got to learn to accept it!!!
IMHO this interview shows that Pete's STILL trying to cope with the fact that as a guitarist Hendrix was simply at a level he could never reach--nobody ever has!!
