This was fantastic, I learned a lot thanks for putting this together. I'd love to see more videos of comparisons like this or videos of "these are the details that make this engine great and these are the weak points"
Thanks for this Jay and the real st team. Super interesting video. JZ’s aren’t infinite so something new has to come close to keep enthusiasts entertained.
Hi Guys, great video 👍🏻 Just FYI regarding the B58 oil pump. The part that you stated as being a scavenge stage, that is actually a vacuum pump for the brake booster.
At Toyota we have had a few of the oil pumps fail not completely fail to the point of engine damage. They fail in a way that you can’t get an oil level reading when you request an oil level check. It will start doing the reading and fail at around the 16% to 18 %. Oil pump replacement fixes the issue. Had one this summer that I had to replace. First time for me going in to this new engine so at first it was a bit foreign.
Looks the same pump as the n55/s55. In them I've seen the fiber seal things in the pump that seal the bit that moves to vary the displacement get lodged where it shouldn't. Also seen the rockers fail and the needles from the rollers fit the pump pickup screen and get into the pump causing hell.
lol I just passed your two trucks and trailers on 295 south in Virginia Mike marker 34. I love your guys channel but I just passed without letting anyone know noticed but I was like no way lol then I saw the Florida video plates and it was like oh shot that’s awesome I just saw real street irl.
You and a LOT of people were defending the B58 and that it was better than the "out dated" 2JZ because it had more technology and newer and "faster" than the orginal Supra when it was released. Yes YOU and they were correct, its newer, newer technology and more hp and faster than the Supra when it came out in 93, BUT the 2JZ motor is still better and can hold more power than the B58. That 2 port head will NOT do 2000 hp. MAYBE the 6 port B58, but we won't know until someone actually pushes it, which NOBODY has even attempted yet. And this is why ~19 of the 25 fastest imports in the world are 2JZ's .... There is a reason why people have this motor.
@@ACommenterOnRU-vid"And this is why ~19 of the 25 fastest imports in the world are 2JZ's" It's like the JZ's had a 25 year head start or something . . . Also the "restrictive" 2 port head can easily do 1000hp. If cast Honda heads can do stupid amounts of power a BMW head surely can.
Typically boils down to this. Outside of aftermarket blocks and heads... What holds the pieces inside better and what can move more air through it's cylinder head. I'd imagine the B58 as an excellent street/strip engine. But these guys running drag autos and 70 PSI with a stall converter that stalls short of redline it's about what holds the parts and fire in the best. The two port B58 kept me away, going back to a traditional 6 exhaust port cylinder head has me intrigued.
The B58 cylinder head flows far better than the 2J, stock for stock, even the 2 port B58. Any 2J making big power has to be extensively machined/ported.
@@lennixsingh626 b58 is a far better engine stock to stock a stock b58 make way more power and torque then the spciest version of the 2jzgte stock and it dosent suffer from turbo lag quite like the 2jz not to mention the fuel efficency anyway regardless a b58 can make 500whp with just downpipe exhuast and a flash tune the 2jz-gte needs at least upgraded cooling injector and a turbo swap to touch 500whp
@@patthonsirilim5739 Your literally talking out your ass. B58's hold around 700-750 SBE. Theres 2j's out there making 1000hp SBE. Theyre both the same displacement so turbo lag between the two is next to indistinguishable. Come back to to this argument when you realise the 30 year old 2jz is just better and use some logic.
I really want an answer to this question since it seems no one has done it, and its more than likely bc it doesnt work. But if i uses a 2jz block with a 1jz crankshaft, and 7mgte hbeam contods what would happen? With either a 1jz or 2jz head
Your stack height wouldn't work out. You would need to use a piston with a 1.230" Compression Height in order to make that scenario stack up to the proper block height. 1JZ and 2JZ are 1.338", 7M is 1.299". I can't foresee any benefit from going that route.
B58 is efficient, reliable, built for response for the average joe who buys a 340 / x5m40i etc.. will make great power up to a certain point but will probably fall flat at high whp levels due to the long stroke im guessing. 7M has similar troubles at the high end and is long stroke also. S58 will probably be better at making big power due to the more square design. But hey, while the 2J isn't the most efficient, it works and its fairly straightforward to set up.
Asking which 6 cil. engine is better is like asking wether the 4 cil Mitsubishi 4G63 is better than the Honda 24K. There are much more Honda racers, therefore more development in the K24. There isn't as much interest and therefore investment and therefore results in the B58. Simples.
Ka24de vs sr20de Ka is a high torque lots of power down low but nothing up top Sr has no torque but lots of top end hi rev hp Pick your taste. I took the ka, 482 whp and 452 wtq. I hit the gas pedal abd she is GONE ... no lag no wait 👍🏾
Well because we have to wait and see if the B58 block can hold 2000 hp .... My guess is NO ... The 2 port head wont flow 2000 hp. But nobody has pushed the B58 to its limit YET so yes we have to wait and frankly not sure why nobody has done so. Papadakis BUILT his B58 just to hit 1000 hp because i dont think he thought the B58 would hold 1000 hp on stock internals.
Only a fool will say the 2jz is in any way better than the b58. The b58 is superior under every single aspect. And that’s obvious, because it’s been designed 30 years later, so one would expect it to be better. It would be interesting to see a comparison between same-era engines of different manufacturers
The B58 isn't superior under every single aspect... he literally said the main bearings and the rod bolts in the 2JZ are superior, as well as the valves being larger, the 2JZ is also more easy to work on and is more simple, simplicity is an extremely valuable quality when modding engines. But I personally prefer the B58, idk if it's the superior engine or not, they're both brilliant in their own ways. The B58 is much lighter and can hold a very similar amount of power on the stock internals. It's also just as reliable, and also even more tunable, with people getting over 500-550whp with just a tune and a downpipe.
@@_entrxpy Yes, indeed. Between regulating bureaucrats and fickle people, our ability to make good stuff work does indeed often move backwards. Here's a specific example: I used to work for Bosch making diesel engine injection systems. The high pressure passage must go through two turns to get to the tip - and obviously you can't drill a hole with a bend. So three holes were drilled - two straight and one angled, that joined the two straight holes. Later, the angled hole would be plugged where it met the surface of the part. The method developed for creating that plug was to braze a small pin into place. For the brazing operation to work, the hole needed to be super duper clean, and tricloroethylene was found to be the ONLY reliable solvent to properly degrease the surface. Once the EPA stepped in and decided that Bosch could absolutely never use tricloroethylene again - a new approach to plugging the hole was sought. None were found that worked as well as the old method. Thus, your semi engine is now 4 times more likely than before to blow a plug and fill the crankcase with diesel fuel. It's genuinely naive of you to think newer is always better. It's that kind of progressive thinking that is destroying our country and world and general.
*This comment section is funny, and delusional! You literally watched a video of this man telling you, while showing the superiority of the 2jz 30 plus years old!* 😂
Making a QUICK SEACH ON THE INTERNET i'VE FOUND 4 COMPANIES THAT SLEEVE THE BLOCK OF THE B58 [sorry for the caps]. So the sleeves may allow you to increase the bore and, therefore, the valve diameters for better chamber flow. Its a perfect world as the walls among the pistons will be stronger iron and the Al will allow lightweight aND HEAT DISSIPATION. So much potential there 🤔 Obviously the cast iron block 2JZ is better for drag racing, while the alu block B58 is better for endurance racing as it permits better heat exchange and smaller size of radiators and less coolant and hooses. - weight savings. The complexity of the pneumatic valves and rockers of the B58 will demand the use of AI [ANN = Artificial Neural Network] to perfectly tune it, as the 2JZ uses a single cap. You have to simulate the intake [rocker+pneumatic lifter] + exhaust [rocker+pneumatic lifter] altogether in Phyton to find the optimal solution for the components. It will be a simulation of 6 rows of 6 ellements . 😱Intake rocker+lifter + electric controler [vanos + valvetronic] + exhaust rocker+lifter. Also the higher complexity of the B58 valve controlers - more 6x moving parts - will make it more break prone. On the upside, the B58 will be able to manage the acceleration better. The 2JZ might be the dyno king, but its restricted to a shallow RPM range, demanding the use of blow-off valves and ECU management of the traction control. More ECU interference means more stress to the engine. The B58 should naturally find more progressive traction in lower RPM. IMO the B58 will trully evolve when people start to use the F1 pneumatic valves, eliminating the rockers and valves, making it reach 12,000 RPM. Meanwhile you have to develop suppliers with alternatives to rockers and pneumatic valves 🥵
"Obviously the cast iron block 2JZ is better for drag racing" This statement is just not true. The fact the 2JZ block is cast iron doesn't mean it's inherently better for power production than a B58 block. After all the B58 engine block is the same block as the diesel B57, and diesel blocks need to take FAR more combustion pressure than a petrol engine. Also did you use AI to write this? It had so much wrong info it felt like I was having a migraine
2JZ block does 2000 hp .... PERIOD B58 does NOT .... yet and i don't think it ever will. I don't care what technology that B58 has TODAY, until that block can pass 2000 hp, its NOT better than the 2JZ YET
Depends what you want. If you want a drag car with max hp then the 2jz is the obvious choice, but if you just want a high hp daily driver the b58 is plenty. Most 2jz fanatics in social media comments will never be drag racing or needing/owning an engine with over 1000hp.
@@ACommenterOnRU-vid no not at all, but it’s not necessary. You aren’t really getting advantages by using the 2jz unless you need crazy high hp. My point is that “better” is not necessarily true for all use cases, and that at more moderate hp numbers the “2jz rules, b58 sucks!” mantra that you hear so often doesn’t really hold true. It’s often said that the mk5 Supra would be “better” with a 2jz but that’s probably not true for most owners of that car, who don’t drag race them. Your argument is that it’s better because it can handle extreme hp levels but the fact that the 2jz can make significantly more hp only makes it better if you need that hp.
ITS ABOUT F'ING TIME THIS VIDEO WAS MADE ... I MEAN HOW F'ING HARD OR DIFFICULT WAS IT TO MAKE THIS VIDEO ????? I HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THIS VIDEO FOR YEARS AND NOT 1 PERSON HAS DONE IT ...
Toyota should have just re-released the 2JZ for the MKV Supra. How cool would that have been?! There would have been zero negative talk about the car when it launched. I know, emissions, etc made that 'impossible'... By the way, Toyota still has stock of brand new 2JZ short blocks ready to go so technically the MKV could have had the legend under it's hood 😉
You'd literally be looking at a i6 no differnt from the B58 with the high chance of it being open deck too. Emissions would kill any chance of them making a engine anywhere near close to a jz.
Good luck convincing the governments to allow it to go back into current cars. I don't think a 2jz could pass current emissions. That's not even counting the cost it would be to start back up the factory that forged the iron 2jz blocks. You are also looking at an engine that could only be used in maybe 3 of the current cars at most. and I6 is not exactly the easiest thing to fit into a car.
@@Mrpancake72 Yeah hence I said I know emissions prevent it's comeback. Would be damn nice though. Toyota could fairly easily produce those 2JZ cast iron blocks if they wanted to. They still have new ones for sale via dealers even today and whilst those could be old stock, replicating them via a casting mold would not be out of the question. As a true Supra fan I really wished that Toyota never collaborated with BMW and used one of their own 6 cylinder engines for the MKV. Is what it is though so...oh well :(
even disregarding emissions problems, the original 2jz in a modern car today would be an absolute diasaster. awful MPGs, and slow AF by modern standards. Not to mentions very heavy.
@@barniechong1183 emissions, yeah that will be an issue. Performance? 320 HP and 440nm torque ain't slow today. Stock numbers aside what they could do is raise boost by a few psi on the stock twins and that power and torque would increase exponentially. It is a cast iron block so it would be heavier than aluminium but I can guarantee you that NO ONE who loves Toyota/Supra/1JZ/2JZ would care if the exact same engine was re-released for the MKV Supra. We would all be ecstatic that the new Supra has a real JZ under the hood. Ideally it should have been a newly developed "3JZ" with 3.2 or 3.4L of displacement and a few more modern amenities pushing out 450+ HP.
It has more technology but i dont think it has the strength to hold 2000 hp ... Its like david vs goliath. Short and weak but with quick fast bursts = bmw Big strong and muscular but slower reaction time = 2JZ
The 2JZ is stil superior in my book. It may be old and simple but that's what's make up for it. BMW is not known for there super high reliable and tunable engines and even though Toyota have put there engineer's in it I still would take a 2JZ. Just like old American v8 engines. They are simple but the work and. You don't need a 5liter ohc engine with miles of chain to time everything. Yes it's technically more advanced and refined but a LS beats it in simplicity and price And the the saved cash you can build a more powerful LS
The 2jz fan boy club, it's so predictable, why does it always resemble a bunch of dumb kids regurgitating stuff they heard on the internet, probably don't even have a car 😂 who TF needs 1000+ HP unless you are a competitive drag racer or drifter? Anyone who actually drives a car on the street or a racetrack with corners doesn't need that kind of power. In fact it could make you slower since traction will limit you. Midrange torque on a high hp 2j is crap compared to a similar power B58, fuel consumption for the B58 is better than the 2j, the B58 is a better street engine as a result IMO. Yes there is added complexity but that is what technology is all about, it's an evolution, finding out what works well and what doesn't for a given set of requirements. There are some really clever things about modern engines that people don't seem to appreciate. How do you think everyone felt when fuel injection and computer controls were introduced? A lot of folks insisted it was garbage and unnecessary. Same with catalytic converters, same with ABS on braking systems, and so on. I think the 2j is great but there is no denying that the B58 is too. For many people, the B58 is a better choice. It's that simple. It boils down to the customer's requirements, which will determine the engine of choice. For the average person who wants a car with great street manners and good tuning potential, the B58 is better IMO. Thanks Real st for the technical breakdown, I'd like to see you take apart an S58 and compare it to the B58 and 2jz. Maybe even do some engine dyno comparisons to show the difference in powerband. All the 2jz fan bois will probably dislike the S58 even more, even though people are getting stupid high HP out of mostly stock engines 😂
This. The B58 has already hit 1000whp on the stock internals, so even if the 2JZ is slightly stronger, it would only be stronger by a tiny amount. A bone stock 2JZ lasted a few dyno runs and 2 quarter mile runs at 1106whp, then it exploded straight after.
@@n.shiina8798 He stated that the 2JZ has stronger rod bolts than the B58, but I think the B58 has the same strength pistons and rods as the 2JZ, if not even stronger. The B58 crankshaft is better tho, considering it's lighter and just as strong.
@@Josh-qm4rb hmm.. i didnt follow race world that much so idk if anyone reached 1000HP on stock B58 internal but iirc, Papadakis uses aftermarket rods and pistons on his 1000HP build. i kinda doubt stock internals could handle more than 700 😐
@@n.shiina8798the highest a stock intenral B58 has been pushed is actually 918whp. There are mk5s making 800whp+ on stock internals including the current fastest stock internal mk5 still running about safely.
Seconds into the video I fully expected to come out forced to like the BMW engine. Having seen this awesome and detailed comparison, I am just confused. The new engine is in no way superior. It probably has better fuel consumption, emissions and does weigh less, but that's irrelevant from a performance standpoint. For the price of it, you can probably get an aluminium aftermarket JZ block. Toyota you shit the bed with this one. And that's not even accounting for the interior and infotainment in the Supra.
The 2JZ block is superior PERIOD ... The B58 2 port head wont stand high hp, the 6 port maybe. The B58 block holding 2000 hp 🤷🏽♂️ someone has to try it but nobody has done it yet and i dont know why especially when this motor is being "hard" compared to the 2JZ all the time.
Out of the top 25 fastest import cars in the 1/4 mile 19 or so are 2JZ. A lot are in the 5's at over 250-260mph. There are ZERO BMW powered cars on that list despite the fact that BMW has sold MILLIONS more cars then any model with a 2JZ in it. Now this list is a bit old, the fastest cars are faster, but the top 25 is just as lopsided. So you clowns in your BMW's with burble toons, pops and bangs etc, before you say something like, the B58 is the new 2JZ... No it's not. The same technology that allows the B58 to run a 8 second 1/4 mile is the same technology that allows the 2JZ to run 5's at almost 90mph more over the same distance. Sure the B58 is doing ok for the 7 years or so that it's been out, but in 1993, we played Oregon Trail on two different floppy disks, and that was the extent of available computing power.... Besides even if the B58 can manage to stay together at higher hp levels one day, it's bore/stroke guarantees that it'll never be able to rev to 10/11k+ to be able to take advantage of the larger turbo's like the 2JZ anyway. Food for thought.
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in Europe b58 for drifting and by papadakis ar run with original sumps and oil pumps. while jz guys get expensive external oiling setup(dry sump) there's that.
The 2JZ is a legend that still kicks ass, enough said on it. The B58 is making power so accessible, everyone knows the meme: downpipe and an email and you've got a pretty quick car. I feel like it's really filled a void in the market, it's the exact engine the tuning world needed.
I haven't experienced the B58 yet but I'm open to see what its all about. I've had my 95 Supra for about 13 years now and love everything about the 2JZGTE.
2JZ. I love the KISS system (Keep It Simple Stupid) That's why i have a Volvo 240 as a Sunday car. Simple. Reliable and can pretty easily be a 4-600hp beast if I wanted. Would like a American V8 but I wouldn't be able to park it anywhere without some duchbags decides to relocate my property to a unknown location
a slight correction, Valvetronic still need throttle body for idle control and failsafe mode. without throttle body, you'll have a hell time to fine adjust the idle and in case of valvetronic fault, you'll have no throttle control at all. this system also not variable from a full 0 lift but 0.1mm-ish lift iirc
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Il stick to the jz.jay seems to be blowing them up..im guessing its tuning issues.maybe his ego stops him from looking at how lots of others are getting way better results then him and not blowing nothing up.
Chains usually require less maintenance - so they're better for somebody that'll never bother to service or maintain their stuff. But chains are also noisier and require more power to drive. Just depends what's important to you. But by far the most robust and reliable way to drive engine parts is via gears. Heavy duty diesels, Formula 1, WW2 airplane engines - all gear driven. Last: I saw nothing on that B58 I liked.
The b58 no doubt is more advanced than the 2jz. engineers keep adding more ports for fuel, air, oil etc, and more adjustability for gears, pressure, air to fuel. All this means is that engines are getting more and more complicated or complex which does open more room for improvement in power and efficiency. It also makes room for more problems and more difficult to locate the issue due to more bits and pieces. in the end either go with something more complex and corky with new empty pages waiting to get filled or just stick with the published book that's simple, robust and proven with a nice ending. lol great video
More ports for fuel? What are you talking about? VVT is also a problem for making power at the highest levels of performance. Most of the "improvements" that the B58 has over the 2JZ were done for fuel efficiency and will do nothing but limit the amount of power that it can make in a racing application.
Like.......20+ bmws....they range from the 2015- current made 40i bmws in almost every platform u can think of other than the....2018-2019 I think 1 series(they made them fwd afterwards and are made elsewhere other than the US market is why). There are differnt gen B58s also that have their differences that aren't too far apart to a degree other than small or slightly big changes.
@usernameE85I would say in that time it was too early to tell with really anything cause there was barely a handful of B58s seeing 1000whp at that time and aftermarket was severly limited so he built it for the case of safety towards the motor along with the fact that FD was right around the corner so there really wasnt room to go on and do all of that with the risks of having unknown issues pop up and not have the car running(at best,aasbo blew one motor after he did his run and blew a manifold cause he sent it too hard and they made another) tapping that territory was still relatively new for everyone and the B58 market . I'd say it's a modern 2j that keeps up with emissions along with the S58 and S55 that do a well enough job in making power and strength with emissions being the thing that hold them all back in the case of how their made.
@@carboydorifutoparty3976 well the 2JZ did 1300 crank hp and 1105 whp on stock internals so ... When that B58 hits 2000 crank hp or 1600 whp, then we can talk.
16:14 This means using MAP sensors as an input to Spark and Fuel surfaces for calibration goes out the window. If the airflow can be managed via intake valve lift then one would need an in-cylinder pressure sensor to read load.
@@755hp It is boosted from factory? Or do you mean extra boost? It has a MAF from factory. No one uses an in cylinder pressure sensors to measure load. There are many simple ways to solve the problem, eg the load will basically be proportional to the manifold pressure and valve lift at a given RPM. It’s really not overly difficult and certainly do not need something that a) isn’t used in reality and b) is only used by OEMs during engine development. Also, MAFs are very accurate, no idea where you got the idea they weren’t from. They’re more accurate than using a MAP-based approach really as they directly measure airflow into the engine rather than trying to estimate the airflow using pressure. Maybe you’re thinking in an aftermarket application that the factory MAF would be too small, which definitely could be possible.
@@coreyw427 So one would need various surfaces to account for MAP, RPM and Valve lift; those are three inputs needed to set fuel and spark timing. So for example, if your valve lift has three opening positions (low lift, mid lift and high lift), you’d need RPM (x input) and MAP (y input) as a surface at low, mid and high lifts. Then you could write the software logic to blend these three surfaces together to account for in between valve positions of low to mid and mid to high (assuming they are variable and not step changes). So I guess this can be done… As for he MAF vs MAP debate, speed density calculations (MAP based) are more robust (leaks, seals, etc than MAFs). Similarly, it allows for changes in the intake piping where load can still be accounted for. This this order (1st is best) are the best ways for measuring load: 1 - MAP 2 - MAF 3 - TPS And I’m waiting for the day that an in-cylinder pressure sensor is robust enough to last the lifetime of an engine; cause this would be the best way to measure load in the software. Simply target a cylinder pressure and bring actual cylinder pressure to meet it using all actuators (throttle, fuel, spark, wastegate, etc). Will also be able to guard against knock far more accurately this way to. Having an in-cylinder pressure sensor is a vital input to being able to control an ICE engine way better. Game changing if applied in factory applications. Just too expensive and doesn’t last long; so developmental use is only applied at the moment. But the data taken from development use of an cylinder pressure sensor IS modeled in the ECUs; also cylinder temperature (especially for CAT monitoring). The software does have a rough idea of temps and pressure accordingly….but it is still only “modeled” not actual…
@@755hp You basically just need to determine volumetric efficiency for all manifold pressures, valve lifts and RPMs. A simple version could just have a 4D look up table for this, so it's really quite doable. This is also done for VVT setups where the VE will change depending on cam advance. MAP is certainly more robust to leaks for the reasons you have mentioned, but generally this is not a concern for OEM applications since generally there are should not be significant leaks. The ECU can compensate for leaks using closed loop fuel control, e.g. a small leak will normally = a small increase in additive fuel correction, so is not really a problem + there are other redundancies in case of, e.g., total MAF failure. As you say, a MAF needs to be calibrated to the intake tract it is installed in, but when done properly like in an OE application it is very accurate due to directly measuring the airflow. MAP on the other hand is just estimating airflow into the engine dependent on VE including VE dependent on VVT position and lift, as well as temperature of the air which is dependent on manifold air temperature as well as the temperature of the inlet ports and any cooling due to latent heat of evaporation of the fuel, which is difficult to model accurately on its own. I agree having cylinder pressure sensors would be great especially for analysing abnormal combustion, but I don't think it's great for measuring load because it is not actually measuring the mass of air, which is most important. Factory ECUs use many techniques already to get a very accurate picture of load, even on a per cylinder basis. For example, the Continental Simos can account for different airflow between cylinders by measuring the roughness of the crankshaft caused by combustion. In an aftermarket application, a simpler approach is just to look at EGTs or even lambda on a per cylinder basis. I'm not aware of cylinder pressure being modelled in any ECU but certainly indicated torque is modelled which is directly related to cylinder pressure. Most also have models of temperatures of the exhaust gas and exhaust components, most importantly the cat.
