Aqui no Brasil costumamos dizer que cachorro que late não morde. Eu acho que a Toyota perdeu o fio da meada e não está conseguindo reajustar sua rota. Já disseram que os EV são desruptivos como foi o computador pessoal (PC) para a maquina de escrever. Não lembro de um fabricante de máquina de esrever que conseguiu migrar para o PC. O mesmo está acontecendo com a Toyota de modo exemplar (ela está tentando até o hidrogênio para manter seus motores a combustão - justo o hidrogênio que é extremamente complicado para tudo). Mas deve acontecer com todas ligadas ao motor a combustão. A inércia industrial do motor a combustão é extremamente grande. Não é fácil mudar. Só como comparação: talvez de elétrico para combustão fosse muito mais simples.
Toyota knows batteries aren't fully there yet. Why invest when you can sell hybrids, and ICE. Remember they sell to third world countries who can't go electric. So they spend little while waiting for everyone else to do RnD. Gas isn't going anywhere.
@@dianapennepacker6854 Those 3rd world countries are now harnessing the energy from the sun to power all there electric vehicles, especially scooters. Toyota are going downhill since the beginning of the year & counting.
H2 is not energy dense and those silly H2 canisters can only store 10-20 miles of range and still come from methane gas, then pumped into canisters, transported, sticking customers with HUGE fuel costs. Still makes NO sense.
Hydrogen is energy dense, but its volumetric density is poor. That and it’s very difficult to contain. Imagine parking your car at home and losing 20% of the range overnight. Also, extremely volatile explosive from 5-75% concentrations.
These will not be canisters of high pressure H2. It will be canisters of medium to low pressure H2 with most of the H2 stored in a metal hydride material which can hold a lot more H2 than if you just compressed it. Very similar as to how acetylene gas for cutting and brazing/welding/soldering torches is stored is stored in acetone in an acetylene cylinder (the cylinder is filled with a very porous form of concrete, then filled with acetone. Then the acetone absorbs acetylene at a modest pressure, and releases it when the pressure drops. There is no need for any high pressure acetylene gas. There will be no need for high pressure H2 gas cylinders either.
@@perryallan3524 The weight of that storage system is 100x the weight of the actual Hydrogen stored. That’s very impractical for a passenger car. While still being far less efficient than a BEV. Considering the current speed of innovation for batteries, this type of system doesn’t have a chance. Typical noise from Toyota.
According to Inside-EVs, you would need to carry 35 cartridges to completely refill the tank. So no space for any passengers or luggage - only cartridges! 😂
No matter what, hydrogen vehicles are too expensive and too complicated. They try so hard to maintain their 'advantages' but actually Toyota will sink with this dilutional project.
The idea of a "Two Hour Charge" is misinformation that's as-good-as-a-lie. Either I'm charging my Tesla at home, when I'm asleep, when the time hits midnight, and rates are cheapest, or it's on a road trip at a supercharger stop, and my wife and I have to hurry to finish our coffee and snack to get back to the car before it hits 80%.
Here in California, we have 43 hydrogen fueling stations. Shell closed 6 in Febuary. Toyota gives 3 free years of fueling with every lease because hydrogen fueling would be too expensive otherwise.
Toyota just needs to put up or shut up at this point. Why they are not being sued for misleading the public with these claims. Does Toyoda and lackies carry no fiduciary responsibility for misleading public investors?
Swappable battery packs are great until there is a queue of cars. Then you can easily wait 20 minutes to just get your pack swapped. Might as well just recharge the one you have.
So they have this incredible explosive gas, pressurised to god knows how many psi, that they are juat gonna sell to people and that would be safe. Oh but EVs are dangerous because batteries explode
These will not be canisters of high pressure H2. It will be canisters of medium to low pressure H2 with most of the H2 stored in a metal hydride material which can hold a lot more H2 than if you just compressed it. Very similar as to how acetylene gas for cutting and brazing/welding/soldering torches is stored is stored in acetone in an acetylene cylinder (the cylinder is filled with a very porous form of concrete, then filled with acetone. Then the acetone absorbs acetylene at a modest pressure, and releases it when the pressure drops. There is no need for any high pressure acetylene gas. There will be no need for high pressure H2 gas cylinders either. The release rate of the hydrogen from the metal hydride prevents an explosion of all of the hydrogen stored. But, there can be a somewhat long fire after the initial free H2 burns off,
@perryallan3524 I'm curious, what type of hydrate material could they possibly use? For what I know most materials that can store hydrogen are very expensive metal alloys if I'm not mistaken?
What is wrong with Toyota and BMW? I'm not saying I'm the smartest in the world, in fact I am SURE both BMW and Toyota employ much smarter engineers, but anyone who can do arithmetic and add should understand hydrogen can never compete with electricity as if you want to make clean hydrogen; you have to convert electricity to to hydrogen with perhaps 30% efficiency, then cool the hydrogen to liquid, then transport it, then burn it in a a car or convert it with a fuel cell with another loss of 60% to 70% to just transmit electricity over the grid to a car battery. Hydrogen will ALWAYS be less efficient and cost between 5 to 7 times more than an EV to transport itself the same distance.
Exactly.. and when something is multiple times more expensive than its incumbent technology.. it will never happen. Hydrogen is also 3-5 times more expensive than gasoline or diesel. The EU has tried with several subsidized projects to push Hydrogen (thanks to the oil and gas lobby groups), they all failed because people and businesses cant swallow the super high costs to fuel hydrogen cars/busses/whatever.
Toyota and BMW cannot compete against Chinese EVs on price...and the EV transition will make the luxury segments redundant....that is why they are desperately trying to redefine the industry...but sadly for them, battery tech is also progressing at a rapid pace....which means one of two things are gonna happen Either they endup going bankrupt or they initiate a pricewar against the Chinese EVs....fun times ahead
I think transport cost will be more like 10x more. A gasoline tanker sized truck carrying hydrogen packs about 1/10th as much energy as a gas tanker. You forgot the cost of hydrogen service stations. Both the cost of the station and the staff to run it.
The WEST got panicked that their EV dream about to come true. But lead by CHINA turning their $WEET dream into pure nightmare. Now they wanna you U turning to something completely different for the sake of not admitting they failed to be the leader of clean EVS.
Sam, the only important thing is "how much money do I need to do 100 kms?" In France, charging an EV costs 13 cts of Euro /kWh at home (Tempo from EDF), so with my consumption of 17 kWh/100 kms (highway...), I pay 2,21 Euros for 100 kms for a hydrogen car, 1 kg can do 100 kms, so what is the price of 1 kg? People already complain ICE car costs too much fuel, the price is the key
@@hectorwinslove6154 in France ICE users pay a little less than 2 euros/liter, about 6 liters/100 kms, so about 10 Euros, and they complain it is too expensive. 18 Euros? no way!
Doesn't anyone remember what happened when they bought an ink jet printer? There is no way to know in advance how expensive those cartridges will get and you can't make your own hydrogen to refill them. I can see how Toyota would consider this an "improvement" over EVs.
The canisters would have to be made of some kind of composite material. H2 seeps through most metals because it's such a tiny molecule. Composites would fracture in a collision.
I'm not trying to disagree with you, but I'm wondering if having a metal outer shell with a composite lining address the concern you raise? If so, then that would address one concern of hydrogen, but there are still many other concerns remaining.
What a horrible idea！😱 Encase 5kg of H in a well fortify car frame is one thing, but allowing non-professional to transport/handle pressurized H tanks is just unthinkable. I guess it takes a country that builds nuclear reactors on earthquake/tsunami zones to come up with such disastrous ideas😅
The argument about not enough places to charge is ridiculous! Every business, every home, every city everywhere, and every place you'd want to drive for normal transportation has electricity! Let it go Toyota!
Hydrogen cars looked like more of a possible future in say 2010 when a Nissan Leaf had a range of 117km (73 miles) and they were claiming that this was adequate for about 90% of consumers. With prices of EV's quickly coming down, charging times dramatically reducing, and range greatly increased, once sufficient charging infrastructure is in place the dream of hydrogen cars taking over will be dead and buried.
I just found the answer to my own question. They hold about 161 grams of h2, so about 6 of these would be needed for 1 kg. So I guess about 10 miles of range.
161 g of hydrogen in each canister is the answer not given in this video. So this would give you what about 10 miles of range per canister. Utterly ridiculous idea.
This is unbelievable news!!! This month was supposed to be about 745 mile solid state batteries, and next month is how great are hybrid month, and December is supposed to be V8 hydrogen engine month. Hydrogen cartridge news is not supposed to be repeated until January 2025. When is Toyota going to announce that they will be relaunching the Hindenburg??? Also, who takes 2 hours to charge their EV on a level 3 charger? Sure, Level 1 can take days to fully recharge an EV, and Level 2 can take all night, but most level 3 charging can be done to 80% in 20-30 minutes.
So, every household is going to have dangerous gas canisters sitting in their garage or driveway. One leak, and you get blown up or a fire starts. Insanity! Electricity is safe, and the infrastructure is already installed in most homes and buildings.
Toyota and its supporters have been flapping their lips about this and that and how the company's innovations would be gamechangers in the industry. But the better question they cannot answer is when?
It might be possible in the future....renewables surplus might make it possible for small scale home H2 electrolyzers to make its way...atleast in theory. Even if this tech doesn't takeoff for the passenger vehicle sector, it might find traction in the construction, heavy vehicle sector But if it's got to be purchased separately like gas, then it's at the mercy of the market
@@lordofsevenrealms - any surplus should first be directed to more efficient forms of energy storage (battery, heat), given hydrogen requires three times the energy input compared to that returned (best case).
@@GruffSillyGoat efficiency doesn't matter when energy abundance is achieved...versatility will take precedence...H2 produced from excess solar, can be redirected to fuel cells to generate electricity at nights....it's always wise to not put all eggs in one basket...that too when it the eggs are gonna be free in the days to come
Forget hydrogen for cars. Electricity is freely available (even at your home!). Hydrogen not. Hydrogen is hard to store, needs to be super cooled, and kept under pressure. It is also extremely reactive e.g. can weaken steel as it wants to join with the carbon in steel.
It takes about 35 of these canisters to fill a Toyota Mirai, and they only provide about 9 miles of range per canister. Plus they aren't soda can sized like they look in some pictures, they are about 10" across and 2ft tall! ...X35, for 314 miles. I prefer Gogoro's upcoming solid state swappable batteries. You could put 4 of them into an efficient EV like the Aptera and drive 100 miles, plus you could recharge them with a 110V outlet at home. Or using the onboard solar.
This whole scenario is like comparing the once upon a time invincible mighty KODAK 🎥 film RIP trying to resist the technology of digital camera and digital media storage. Sadly to say KODAK actually invented the digital camera technology first, but doesn't wanna it to be the popular device for the use as advanced media. RIP for mighty KODAK.
I think hydrogen is a great idea - that way I could keep paying loads of money to fuel companies rather than charge up an EV overnight for next to nothing...
So are these cannisters good for 2 or 3 miles of driving? Toyota Mirai sales in California have dropped below 200 cars per quarter this year. I think this means Toyota has finally given up on the Mirai. Sales likewise down in Japan.
Even ”normal” hydrogen is too expensive. Hydrogen in those cells would cost even more and that cell can contain only a small amount of that extra precious hydrogen.
The canister will be filled with a metal hydride that absorbs and holds a lot of H2 at modest pressures. I suspect you will be surprised at the amount of H2 that can be stored that way. Very similar to how acetylene gas for cutting, welding, brazing, and soldering is stored in a cylinder of acetone soaked porous concrete and not as a high pressure gas.
I think they are crazy continuing with this. They would be better off going with e-fuels instead like Porsche. Just saying sam regarding the bomb comment. Everything can be used as a bomb. Petrol cars, hybrids, Electric anything. Just got to make it release enough energy fast enough.
The reason I think hydrogen might be viable is that batteries & renewables wont be enough to power international shipping and hydrogen could fill that gap. You can currently buy gas at 'swap and go' for the BBQ at most service stations, so in theory there is no reason why hydrogen cartridges (Toyota or generic) couldn't be distributed in a similar way. I think a PHEV with a hydrogen engine and swappable cartridges is a good idea in theory. I remember taxis were all converted to LPG canisters (ie bombs) in the 2000s, and we survived.
Makes a lot more sense as an extra energy source for homes. It will depend on cost vs 'solar generators" or a Tesla Powercell. vs the hydrogen canister, on a moving vehicle probably never.
With hydrogen you'd still need to put in 3x the energy in for that returned aswell as pay for the expensive hydrogen generator maintenance (membranes and catalysts involved are not cheap). The micro sized home flow batteries are better options if expandability is the need.
What's better than hydrogen power? Having an already existing infrastructure in place. Using batteries to conveniently store electricity. Using solar panels & windmills to create cheap power every day.
Unless something changed, it takes roughly 3 units of electricity to electrolyze 1 equivalent unit of hydrogen. I can not see how putting, say, 3 kilowatts of electricity into the electrilyzer in order to get 1 kilowatt equivalent of hydrogen will be cost effective. Hydrogen is a storage medium for energy, not a source, so I see hydrogen as performing the same function as batteries. If you want to go darker, I see companies and government as wanting to use hydrogen so they can better control profit margins and energy distribution, and hence control people, with a metaphorical flip of a switch. That is not so easy if people own and use solar panels to charge battery banks they also own. (Have to flip a lot of switches to shut off individually owned solar and batteries, so it would be harder to control people with a threat of a blackout.) I think it is now too late for a hydrogen economy as battery technology can and does perform better at a lower cost. Time will tell.
Maybe hydrogen could be used for home heating or something. I think the area where cars need more range and power is towing. A supplemental fuel source that can charge the battery while the vehicle is in motion to extend tow range could be really useful on a truck. But small gasoline engines charging the battery to extend range seem like the solution for now. By the time hydrogen gets ready for that kind of thing range of battery trucks will be so good that that supplemental power to extend range won't be necessary. Towing can reduce range by 50 percent so a vehicle really needs a range of 800 miles to be a really good electric tow vehicle.
I would like to see what the cost comparison would be of their hydrogen car, including fueling costs, with an electric car both for charging at charging stations and at home with both buying the electricity and self produced with solar. It is utter nonsense that it would make economic sense.
Another test baloon, when it floats too high it pops. No way this will ever be adopted.. From what I see these cylinders are huge! which has its effect on usable space of the car.. and if you want to take a few with you, there is probably no space left to place your kids or cargo! Leakage guaranteed, that is just inevitable with these swappable things, seals wear or get misformed, mechanincs wear out and get sloppy and as a result of that: fires and explosions guaranteed. No thank you, I would avoid this as the plague.
Seems HGV makers don't agree, Scania has dropped it's hydrogen range to focus on battery instead for most uses and potentially alternative e-fuels for the extreme long range use cases.
Inside EVs has determined that each canister would hold about 161 grams of hydrogen. A second-generation Toyota Mirai has a total capacity of 5.65 kilograms, so you would need no fewer than 35 cartridges to get the same quantity of hydrogen. Driving around with at least 35 canisters of hydrogen seems like a ludicrous idea! You certainly would not want to be involved in a severe car accident! Changing the catasters 35 times during a trip would be dreadful.
You are missing something. Some people think you need to be able to recharge as fast as fueling at a petrol station. My self I am waiting for car to grid.
The conversion of hydrogen to electricity and back has only 30% efficiency. Therefore I can't see the future of this tech in passenger cars. Maybe it would be good tech for trucks and boats. In these small canisters, the hydrogen is stored under very high pressure which is very dangerous.
"The Japanese government plans to spend JPY3 trillion (USD20. 3 billion), financed through green transformation (GX) transition sovereign bonds, over the next 15 years to subsidize the production, storage, distribution, and utilization of cleaner hydrogen, aiming to enhance cooperation with the private sector." -- from an article "Japan's carbon neutrality strategy relies heavily on hydrogen". So Toyota is sucking up government subsidies.
I truly feel bad for the Japanese. It didn’t have to be this way when Toyota use to be a powerhouse with hybrids. The transition to EVs should have been seamless for them. What are their leaders thinking?
@@EnriqueAThieleSolivan And yet there are still new H2 bus projects popping up over here in the US. Philadelphia and Rochester are 2 that come to mind. What a waste of money.
@EnriqueAThieleSolivan Do you have a link? Not that I don't trust you... it's seems obvious a battery pack would be TOO heavy, takes too long to recharge, for long haul semi's and that's why you don't hear about Tesla semi's any more!
@@EnriqueAThieleSolivan Do you have a link/source? Not that I don't trust you... it just seems obvious a battery pack would be TOO heavy, takes TOO long to recharge, for long haul semi's and that's why you don't hear about Tesla semi's any more!
A Chinese firm has developed a system of RENTED H2 CITY BIKES, with 50KM range, and which are reloaded with hydogen by a van with hydrogen, reacting on a signal from the bike that hydrogen content is low. THEY CLAIM THAT THIS PROJECT HAS BEEN SUCCESFULL!!!!!!!! The H2 CANISTERS are loaded with HYDROGEN BONDED TO A SUBSTANCE, WHICH BLOCKS ITS EXPLOSION. Yet, these canisters can only function as RANGE EXTENDERS, which does not solve the problem of lacking H2 PUMPING stations.
Hydrogen might make sense to replace jet fuel because of its energy high density and better safety around aircraft. Maybe even useful for emergency home generator alternative to propane. Given some EVs that already get over 500 miles and have 10 minute charge times hydrogen for cars is a dumb idea to pursuit. Adding consumables and their transportation costs is silly relative to electricity. Toyota is a great car company but it's going to lose a ton of marketshare if it keeps avoiding the reality BEVs are the future.
It may not make financial sense, but it's convenient, and people pay more for convenience ALL the time, EVERYWHERE (like when they eat FAST food). Fast fill, or fast swap-out of cartridges ... that's what most people want. That's why most people don't want to give up their gas cars. FAST FILL. Convenience. Using intermittent variable energy sources to make hydrogen for later use makes total sense in terms of CONVENIENCE. So what if it's not energy efficient. It produces a product I can use when I need to use it. I have no use for electricity generated by a spinning wind turbine at 3am, but I WOULD have a use at a later time for the hydrogen that it produced. PLUS ... hydrogen is INFINITELY RECYCLABLE, forever, so it's the ULTIMATE in green. It's more cost effective than hugely expensive batteries (overall). It doesn't degrade over time. And it doesn't require rare metals from the Congo or South America or Russia or China.
Building a refilling network and sustaining it still needs to be done. The hydrogen needs to be produced, delivered to refilling stations for refilling and monetization. The electrical supply chain is already established. If Toyota and others pay for the hydrogen network that should bankrupt them over providing a viable efficient alternative
You are missing 1 key piece of information an have another totally wrong. Windmill generated H2 would be extraordinarily expensive, as you indicated. The problem is that the H2 production plant needs to be sized to the maximum capacity of the wind turbine - but often only runs at 30% of that capacity, and at times does not run at all. Match a H2 generating plant with a nuclear power plant that can normally runs at 100% and the cost of the H2 drops dramatically. A study on this from a major international energy organization 4-5 years ago projected the cost of nuclear generated H2 at 1/4 to 1/5 of the cost of wind generated H2. Japan is one of the countries that did not forget how to build nuclear power plants (Like the US and Western Europe) and can build them on time and on budget. Now their design basis accident rules were messed up which resulted in Fukushima. But those rules have been changed. So the cost of H2 is likely a lot cheaper than you imagine for Toyota's concept. That does not mean that there are not some other problems to be solved for a large H2 economy. You need a lot of clean water available to produce H2 is likely the biggest one. My vague memory is about 10 times what is converted to H2; which makes H2 production not likely for many parts of the world. Of course future research may bring that down (and I know that was one of the problems being worked on). You are totally wrong that a H2 vehicle or the canisters are a bomb. Shame on you. Any fuel can be converted to a bomb. Gasoline, propane, and many other common liquid fuels have had their storage tanks used to supply what is essentially a bomb. The fact that someone converted a H2 vehicle into a bomb is meaningless. How many gasoline ICE cars have been converted where the gasoline was spayed into the air and ignite to create a fuel/air mixture conflagration bomb (note that ANFO conflagrations - it does not detonate). You don't hear of this much as propane works a whole lot better for this kind of conflagration bomb. But, many examples of both gasoline and propane conflagration bombs are known to have been used (its so common that it is not reported as news in most cases). Using H2 this way is an obvious extension of this concept; but more expensive than propane. Note that I held a blasters license for several decades (I recently gave it up due to health issues). I studied fuel/air conflagration explosives and uses as part of my base learning about explosives before I got licensed. I see that this concept actually may have economic viability (and it may not). I see it potentially useful for small aircraft as well. That is assuming that the appropriate nuclear based H2 plants are built to supply the H2. As far as canisters: I can see their potential distribution like the current 5 Lb, 10 lb, and 20 lb propane canisters you can exchange for a full one at many gas stations and hardware stores. You may not need to carry more than one or two spares with you. Just exchange them when you need a food, bathroom break, or other break.
@@rogerphelps9939 I believe you understand the problem. But the vast majority of wind energy people talk about generating H2 from wind energy. Also, where in the grid is the power to dump GW chunks of power into electrolysis plants 24 hours a day (and Japan alone likely needs at least 5 GW+ plants to make this concept work just for Japan - the USA likely 40 GW+ plants) You need to build new power plants for that - and wind and solar are not suitable due to their variably, and gas is a really poor choice as well as the CO2 emissions from the gas plant invalidate the concept. The only plants you can build for the concept is nuclear power plants.
