After receiving a number of comments stating that I was operating the backhoe incorrectly, I wanted to make a video to highlight a subtle difference between a compact tractor and a backhoe. Did you know about this?
@fartpoobox ohyeah You are correct if it's a single acting cylinder that "pushes" in only one direction, like a dump truck bed hydraulic cylinder. In this case it was a double acting cylinder that pushes in both directions, more common in farm tractors and heavy equipment.
When I was an apprentice back at 'Diesel fitter' school, they went to great lengths explaining to us about all the different 'pressure relief valves' that are in most loader / excavator hydraulic circuits specifically designed to protect cylinders and hoses from this kind of overload. There is the main one on the pump circuit which is usually the first to dump at the end of the cylinder stroke or when lifting too much. Then there are ones on each circuit to (as I said before) protect the closed, or locked, circuit. These are set very high and you have to be doing something very extreme to make them blow off...........Like back-blading and hitting a stump / rock, for example. That said, I'm sure not every machine has these fitted, so best to play it safe!! Great video, by the way!!
Awesome info! Now I just wish I knew which machines had them. My guess is compact tractors don't and you would find that on more high end commercial equipment.
I was looking at a Kubota MX5400 for use around my farm, when a ham radio friend told me to find a decent, used, Deere 310L backhoe. I listened to his advice, and am thrilled that I did. Granted, it doesn't have a three point hitch on it, but the commercial design, and the full sized backhoe arm in the back is awesome. It can dig, lift, plow, scoop, and even forklift stuff. Best thing I ever bought, even though it costs more than a Ferrari to maintain.
As a new tractor owner and user, this was a good teaching moment. Great stuff! Will definitely remember cause I don’t want to break my tractor as I am about to start some big projects. Thanks!
A serious point people may miss looking at the farm tractor loader backhoe and the construction Loader backhoe is the nature of these systems. The construction unit is made as a unified rather single purpose system. The farm tractor uses lighter detachable units for its loader and backhoe function. The construction Loader Backhoe is built for these operations alone. It was not made to operate without its earth moving parts. ?The farm tractor is a utility machine, configured for much lighter Loader Backhoe work, along with dozens of other jobs. Farm tractor hydraulics may only allow one function or lever to operate at a time. The construction unit can operate multiple cylinders at once. While the farm tractor setup for loader backhoe work, they are very different breeds and must be used as such. PLease respect yourself and the potential limits of your machines. You both will live longer and be very much safer. Take care of yourself and enjoy your work. God bless you all.
Internet experts are everywhere. It’s like Ronald Reagan said years ago, it’s not that they’re stupid, it’s just they know so much that isn’t so. Great video.
That may have been one of the reasons that my dad ordered a Massey Ferguson ag tractor and had the industrial loader adapted on to it cuz it was stronger and more heavy duty and he knew he would be rough with it. But he definitely wanted the ag tractor because he had a heavy duty brush hog and a heavy duty rototiller that he used on it all the time. A lot of people know that compact tractors and micro mini tractors are very light duty and are not designed to hold up under constant heavy use. My dad had John Deere backhoes but he used his Massey Ferguson ag tractors as a skiploader and used it on job sites for grading with a big drag box. We loved our fully manual shift gearbox for doing weed abatement. It was a little bit annoying using it as a skiploader loading trucks. It's kind of funny how you call one a tractor and the other one is a backhoe like it's not a tractor. That case is a tlb and the other one is an ag tractor. Over the many years my dad had about four different Massey Ferguson's and just as many John Deere TLBs.
and they ask me why I have an excavator, dozer, motograder, compactor, and a front loader around the ranch, well a bucket on a tractor is a band-aid at best
This is great information. I am a noob when it come to tractors. I’m I’m hoping to restore my case in the spring so I always enjoy this content teaches teaches me a lot
A tractor and Backhoe only look a like they are built for completely different uses. A Backhoe has a steel frame to take the abuse a construction job can dish out. A tractor loader (backhoe) is a piece of farm (home)equipment.
Also on the tractor not to have the bucket tipped so far forward more of a flat position, and have the bucket in the float position, so it will rise up over something that might damage the cylinder's John
Even if it were bad for the cylinders it would be way better than having the backhoe on its side. I've seen too many operators try to dig without the backhoe firmly planted on the ground. You want to dig close to you whenever possible you get the best leverage and you don't bounce around everywhere.
I have been working for a municipality with absolutely no repercussions for breaking anything for over 20 years and we beat the hell out of equipment and have never broken a single cylinder ever on a backhoe. It's not something I would ever be concerned about.
Thanks Brian! That's a helpful perspective. I would think it would take a lot to do so, but then again, when repairs are on my dime I try to be extra careful! ha
@@IndyFarmLife One thing that keeps me from doing anything stupid is I go slow when doing everything. I think that minimizes the possibility of breaking anything, or causing damage.
The loader lift arms have a float position, and I assume that would help to some degree, but the bucket could still catch a log/stump if it was rolled out quite a bit. I also wonder how much spreading would be acheived if in float position. The loader may simply ride over the pile and not spread like intended.
Thanks Scrapper! Happy to have you along for the ride! I never really noticed the difference until people made comments about it on my videos. Then it just hit me.
Lol how is it putting pressure on the cylinder if it is floating? even if you have it locked to go deeper as long as your bucket is tilted and not perpendicular you will lift your tires before anything that would damage cylinders
Personally I wouldn't have a case if somebody gave it to me. I often feel the same way about bobcat. Even though they do use the same key on some models. It looks like an old Chevrolet key. But keys that work on lots of different cars and tractors is a different topic. And maybe bobcat will get better now that it is owned by Doosan. 😁😉 At least it's not AGCO who already owns a Monopoly of tractor brands. Update: Doosan has been taken over by Hyundai Group.
Ok the problem I have is backhoe loaders in my country , have the same configuration as the tractor loader .... case new Holland Europe do not configure their loader arms the same as US spec , they all follow , including cat , jcb spec meaning the info you are sharing although is useful is not entirely accurate
A backhoe is way stronger for pushing with the loader. A tractor has a loader that has an arch to the main loader arms. Pushing snow with it slightly raised and hit a curb destroyed my friends loader on his JD tractor. If he had been in a Case Backhoe he merely would have slid out of the seat because he is crazy and don't wear the seatbelt. After he would have gotten his body up off the floor and out to inspect the damage to the backhoe he would have found no damage. Unfortunately his JD loader was pretty badly messed up
Pretty good video but you might want to make a correction on how a double action hydraulic cylinder works. Double acting cylinder has hydraulic fluid on both sides of the piston at all times except when fully stroked in either direction. There's never a point where there's no hydraulic fluid in the cylinder. It uses hydraulic pressure to push the rod out and then it uses hydraulic fluid to pull it back in. Easy way to determine whether or not you have a double acting or single. Double acting have two hydraulic fittings one at either end. Single acting only has one hydraulic fitting. Single acting cylinders use some exterior forced to retract or extend the side of the cylinder that is not supplied by pressure.
Unless you’re really doing something stupid, you shouldn’t have any issues busting your tractor loader cylinders in that position. The real issue is having the bucket curled all the way in the dump position, such that the open part of the bucket is flat on the ground and your cylinders are at maximum extension. In the loader position you showed in the video, the buck should easily ride over any obstacle you run over backwards. Just my thoughts and how I learned to operate
Honestly I’ve not seen anyone bend the bucket cylinders on a farm-grade Deere, Kubota, or similar quality just with back dragging. I also have a family member that has a 50hp Kubota L series with a fairly large backhoe on it and he digs hard rocky ground routinely, and has probably 750 - 1000 hours on the backhoe operation of the tractor. Right or wrong, he routinely digs with the bucket curled out. He’s dragged some pretty large boulders (2-3000 lbs) out of trenches and foundations that he digs so it’s not like he’s digging sand with it.
I personally haven't seen anyone do it, just have read about it/have seen it on the interwebs. Ha. Good to know it's not as delicate as some might think!
You make valid points about potential damage to the cylinders, however the main reason case came up with that design is because you get more breakout force with your bucket when using the extending cylinder than you do on a retracting cylinder due to the lost volume and surface area from the cylinder rod. The Case 480 series machines had a setup more like the John Deere without the "Linkage" and several other backhoe manufactures use the typical "Extend cylinder" for bucket curl. The biggest difference is that the backhoes are just plain build stronger to handle these loads vs a farm tractor.
100% correct about why that particular model of backhoe is designed that way. Many of those light duty tractors with loader buckets can't pickup the entire machine like a backhoe can. My first run in with a farm tractor with a loader bucket was eye opening to me. My boss got it stuck in the mud. I went to go help him out and the thing couldn't lift it self up out of the mud with the bucket. This is a pretty big machine too. As big as any backhoe I have ever run. I've gotten backhoes in some pretty sketchy situations. And if you stay calm you can use the hoe, the bucket, and the outriggers to get those things our of pretty much any situation because they are all strong enough to lift the entire machine. That's their best feature given that they aren't the best tool for any job lol. They're built incredibly strong and can back drag a loader bucket flipped down like that without a problem. And like you pointed out. Not all backhoes have that reversed cylinder setup. This guy was clearly still learning about these machines when he made this video. I get it though. There are a ton of people out there with opinions that more than likely attacked him that don't actually know what they're talking about.
I agree that the added breakout force is likely the biggest reason case used this design. As you point out, the cylinders produce significantly more force extending vs retracting.
Cylinder placement also has a great deal to do with power management. Hydraulic cylinders have a lot more power to push then they do to pull. As demonstrated on some mini excavators were the main boom lift cylinder is underneath while others have it on top of the boom. With the cylinder underneath the boom the boom has more power to lift while the cylinder on top the boom has more power to dig down. Looking at your green ag tractor it has more power to uncurl than it does to curl which is the opposite of your TLB. Most loaders or at least the big loaders have a Z shaped arrangement on the bucket curl so that the bucket curl cylinder has more power to curl the bucket back then to dump it. Most large loaders only have one bucket curl cylinder so they have to have an arrangement where they get the most power out of it for curling and lifting several tons of weight. Most smaller tractors do not take advantage of that. Unfortunately they are designed to have more power to dump then they do to curl. In any case those light duty tractors are easy to damage, especially on the undersized hydraulic cylinders. At least those bent Rams can be straightened. There's several videos on RU-vid how they straighten them. Additionally there are some hydraulic cylinders that are made to have equal power in both directions, and they have a hydraulic ram coming out both ends of the cylinder also. Some power steering cylinders are like that.
When I'm riding my backhoe in the city and or on the highway, I position the front shell down. So, if I hit a person, or vehicle, they will suffer less damage. Congratulations on the video and may God bless your work. Hug.
I picked up a kubota L2501 yesterday and it's supposed to have a "float" feature where the bucket can go over objects and allow the cylinders to move freely, I'm assuming it's to avoid this issue. This is a good video which defines the difference between machines and a good example of what they are meant to do. I've never thought about that issue, until I saw this
You can, and it works well, you just need to be aware of the ground you are working with. This isn't a PSA to say don't back drag in that fashion. I do it all the time. Moreso to be aware of things that 'could' go wrong and always keep that in the back of your mind.
You are comparing a construction grade machine with what amounts to a large garden tractor.... One is built to work all day, every day moving hundreds of tons of material, the other is for hobby work...
Wow Indy Andy I never thought about that. Hydraulic mechanisms helped to build so many things we enjoy today. Going to watch some more of your vids now.
Just found your video (2 years later) There are so many things wrong. First NEVER start a tractor (or any piece of equipment) standing along side it It could be in gear (never trust a safety switch) If a hydraulic cyl is pulled all the way down that is when you do not want to hit a sudden load. It is metal to metal and can cause damage You can bend the rod while inside the cyl, bend the piston, or crack the cyl. If the pins rest right at the head of the cyl (old Memo loaders) you can bend the head of the cyl If the hydraulic cyl is part of the way out, the pressure relief valve built onto most system, will pop and let the cyl retract if you hit something (not sure about Junk Deere because will not ever own another after what they did back in the 70s with a combine we owned) sending the oil back into the reserve tank. You have it 100% backwards I do not know about your 580, however my 580C bucket cannot go back any further then the cyls can pull it. If I disconnect the cyls from the bucket after it is pulled as far in as the bucket will let it I have about 1/2 to 3/4 inch more that the cyls can pull it in. Built in safety to keep from bottoming out the cyls
Thank you so much for showing this cylinder work system. I cut my teeth on the lap of my Dad, operating the front Loader control on an old CASE 530. I bought one of the first 580-K that had the New boom design. That was for a Utility (so it was not my Backhoe) my personal Backhoe that I own. It is a 1978 Dynahoe-190 Just two wheel drive. It's a Restoration project (8000 hours on meter) but that old great (353 Detroit Diesel) just keeps chugging along. Clean 40 Wt. In the engine goes a long way.
Wow Great Vajayo!!!!!!! I bght a used Kubota L4200, (I learned to drive on a Ford 545)? 20+ years ago.....For us DIY guys this is the type of info that is gold!!!! It is so simple the way you explained this! Often we learn you never do XXXXX but they don't explain the why part thus it is easy to learn the wrong thing for the right reason so to speak....Thank you so much!!!!!!
Terrific insight. My grandson calls our New Holland b95 a “digger”, probably from watching “Bob the builder” ha. I’m happy calling it a digger, just curious if that is closer to reality than I thought? What do you think?
Most people do not ever have a job running a real piece of equipment, great job showing the difference in the equipment. Also on the larger John Deere Farm tractors they have a float valve for the bucket when you back blade, this keep them from jamming the cylinders back when you hit anything. Great instructional video.
Thank you! So they have a float function on the curl/dump cylinders in addition to on the loader lift arms? Mine has it on the loader arms, but I would think you would need the bucket "locked" at a specific angle to back drag properly. Interesting info. Thanks for sharing!
@@IndyFarmLife , take another look at the little JD loader in the full dump position. Take note of the cyl rod clearance down by the bottom bucket bosses. Now image driving forward with the bucket in the full dump position and the "top" edge of the bucket hitting an obstruction. The cylinder rod will contact the bucket bosses and bend the rod. Because of the geometry, it takes almost no force to bend the rods. IMHO, that is how most cylinder damage occurrs - bent rods causing leakage or out right breakage.
@@IndyFarmLife Just as you said, the float valve typically is only on the loader arms, the bucket is locked to whatever angle you set it. But if you hit a rock while backdragging, the inclined bottom of the bucket pushes the loader arms up and the bucket just slides over the rock. That's the purpose of the float valve, to let the bucket follow the ground. Btw, your Case loader has a somewhat similar design of the loader arms and bucket cylinder arrangement than my own Valtra 815 (Finnish machine). The manual mentiones about that design: 1. Due to the pushing motion when curling in, the bucket has more breakout force 2. Due to the pulling motion when dumping, the bucket moves faster (less fluid volume needed due to the displacement of the rod) And it doesn't mention exactly why, but explicitly states not to put the bucket upside down on the ground when digging with the backhoe. So I could not say for sure if there's an unfortunate situation with the different leverages, or if it's just that the driving controls in the back make it too easy to forget about the bucket in the front... To clarify, the machine has a gearbox with a hydrostatic clutch system where I can select the driving direction with with one lever. No foot pedal and gear shifting needed to reverse, just that one lever needs to be moved. When I have the seat turned backwards, I have an additional brake pedal and driving direction lever there. So it's possible to e.g. inch a bit forward when digging a trench without having to turn the seat into the driving position again. But that of course requries that the front bucket isn't on the ground in a position where it locks against the ground without a possibility to slide.
New to the channel, the name actually got me in. Love the content. I lived near Indianapolis (west side) for over 40 years. Now I live in southern Indiana. What part of "Indy" are you guys in?
@@IndyFarmLife Yeah I just grab a bucket full of gravel or dirt or even mulch to weigh the bucket down some more. That way it's still got some power to drag but isn't going to break any hydraulics like you mentioned.
The owners manual for my 3038e warns against scraping forward or backward with the bucket tilted too far forward. Now I know why. I didn’t even think about the tilt cylinders being weak when they were extended....
Good video. One question, has the backhoe being 2wd ever been an issue? I know you can get a used 2wd a pretty good bit cheaper than a 4wd. I came close to buying a 2wd a few years ago but was afraid I would have buyers remorse so I backed out. Still haven’t bought one!
I have both. 4x4 only gets used pushing big piles on a slope, or muddy or snow. Rear wheel drive can go almost anywhere a 4x4 can go. I'd say it helps more for pushing than anything else. 2 wheel drive gets driven 3 time more than the 4x4. Faster and lighter
I found that 4WD is almost a necessity here in Mass, especially with mud or snow. And air conditioning is not a frill. When I bought my 310, it came with AC. I laughed at why anyone would pay the money for that feature. I quickly wised up. The first day you have to dig, and it's 90 degrees outside, you will thank the gods in heaven that you have it.
