I started archery in 1960. I use split finger for heavy weight hunting bows. I use three finger under for light weight target bows, works great for me🎯
I find myself going to your videos a lot lately as I try to move up from newby, especially your series on the shot cycle, very thorough and specfic, thank you
i found this to be very informative. I just started shooting a recurve bow, hoping to hunt with it this fall, and am still playing around with 3 under versus split finger. So knowing this information is helpful and now i can focus on what is more natural and gives me better results. So far 3 under is in the lead.
Hey 101 I had a feeling you were ex army. So am I, 4th battalion royal Australia regiment, Vietnam 71-72. Trad shooter 35 years, now just longbows. Love longbows. Your videos are a little bit more up front than grey archery, and that's what I LIKE. go get em 101.
great job!!! it seemed like three under had a higher pitch...i was told that higher pitches were louder up close but didnt carry as far and that deeper pitches werent as loud up close but carried further.great video idea keep up the great work!
ive always thought more about the arrow making a noise, we know bullets do coming past, i think broad heads with the hollow parts would whistle or make more noise, or 4 feathers make more noise than 3 feathers. Greg fantastic vids mate. your getting answers we want. so cool.
Greg you are right 3 under can be louder unless your bow is tillered for 3 under !!! I've noticed a huge difference in my bows that I had tillered for 3 under !!
Run a spectrum analyzer plugin over the audio files for a clear visual respresentation of the differences. Psychoacoustics teach us that both the ear, and the brain (human, for example), is differently sensitive to detecting (and filtering/zoning out) sounds at different frequencies. The frequencies central in a baby's cry are for example such "amplified" ones. So, the same dBA level reading, but with different frequencies, will be perceived differently loud, or rather: cause different thresholds where _detection_ of sound occurs. The important variable _for hunting_ then is of course the level in the frequencies that is most easily detected by the game in question (which, unlike human psychoacoustics, I don't think have been researched enormously - but I might be wrong, just scan the web :) ). And for a human it's of course the one that sounds the coolest! Kudos on doing first hand independent research on archery!
Great video Greg. That was really interesting.I've noticed that when I shoot my bows three under, they tend to vibrate much more than with split finger. This would explain why you were seeing the sound from three under for a longer period of time than split finger. From my experience three under sounds much louder.
People confuse frequency with volume. And how WE hear frequencies can be much different than our food does. Yes, lowering volume is important, but the real money is in the frequency reduction along with it. In the end, I would wager that there isn't much you can do to really get rid of it all, so just tune as "quiet" as you can and be happy.
Awesome! Finally some real info. and not just a bunch of opinions. Is it definitive? Maybe, maybe not, but it at least shows the two together and not just a "This is what I think." Thanks
I found another thing to do for quieting the noise. I started using 300 grain broad heads for my bow and crossbow. It made a difference even I can hear.
What I would think about is string to limb tip contact, the pitch of the string as modified by mass, frequency and tension in the string and which fletching height and profile is quieter. Your bow sounds noisy to me because of the style of contact recurve it employs. Also sounds to me like an undue level of pass noise. The measurable variations are most likely due to small variations in the clean-ness of loose and in the timing of the string tip contacts changing with the way the finger style affects timing of the tiller on the loose. The obvious thing that might get the attention of a deer before the arrow gets there is probably the sound of the string hitting the tips. If the deer freezes and looks, not so bad, if it takes off at the sound, not so good.
It appears the volume is quite similar, but the duration is noticeably longer with 3 under. If you check out Ranch Fairy's videos he demonstrates the thump-buzz of the shot and the arrow noise and the reaction of hogs. It appears from his videos that the hogs are reacting to the buzz as much or more than the thump. As far as hunting goes, I don't really think the difference in duration is enough to matter. I'd say shoot the way you are most confident in your accuracy. Critters are going to jump the string whether you shoot split or 3U or using a compound and a release because there will always be a thump and a buzz, and it happens whether you shoot vanes or feathers.
Russ Vance Perception is often different than reality. When making this, I was able to use the sound representation of the recording and both were quite similar in duration. There was no definitive difference.
When measuring the sound at 20 yards, you could actually hear 3 components: 1. the release, 2. the arrow in flight, and 3. the impact. The responsiveness of the meter wasn't fast enough to compare 1 to 2 but to my ear, the arrow in flight was equally loud as the release, and much longer in duration...I'm thinking that for hunting, the sound of the arrow in flight might have more effect on animals jumping the string, since it is longer in duration...and the longer the shot, the more effect it would have, as the arrow is getting closer to the animal in flight, while the release is stationary. Wonder if it might smarter to tune for the quietest arrow instead of the quietest release.
I also find this idea plausible. The sound _moving_ towards the animal of course also alerts it of an unknown object's movement in its' immediate direction, and so a bigger reason to move out of the way than just a random snap somewhere in the distance. This is just a hunch, with salt on top.
I think the fact that your nock point is set up for split fingers creates the pitch change. My bows are all setup for 3 under, and when my brother shoots my bows with split fingers he swears it sounds louder than when I do.
The duration if the vibrations after the shot seem to be longer with three under. In my opinion, the reason is less energy transfer to the arrow. Why is that? Maybe the bow is not tillered for three under. I see this in my archery club. People shooting three under with one piece hunting recurves, made for split fingers. The bow is less effective with three under. Sometimes you can also see a difference in arrow speed by minus 2-3 fps with 3 under vs.split fingers. I tried this with several bows with adjustable tiller (ILF system). E.g. Black Widow Bows wants to know if you shoot three under or split fingers, so they know how to tiller your custom built bow for optimal performance.
Superb video Greg - thanks for taking the time to compile it. I wonder what creates more/less arrow noise down range (from the target's perspective)? Feathers or Vanes? Broadheads or field tips. Fascinating subject indeed.
Very interesting video. The sounds are different for sure. I am pretty sure different frequencies can travel further than others but also our ears pick up different frequencies better than others. I could play a song on a car stereo across the street and you would probably here the bass much better than the highs. I could play the same song next to you on a pair of headphones and even though it sounds good to the listener the person next to them might only here the high tchts tchts sounds coming through. Who knows what deer hear. :)
does it affect the speed of the arrow. If the bow is vibrating more their is less energy going into the arrow. Though it is probably not enough different to show on a soft spined over fletched arrow.
You know, your approach was plenty scientific. Just a little more refinement and your experiment could be much more significant and relevant than it is right now. Even now, it is a pretty significant result. If you ever need a bit of help in setting up any further experiments, let me know. I have done quite a few such projects and know a lot of applied physics etc professors so I could help you. No offense though. I love this channel!
Great video again, Greg... your final point I found the most interesting - the incoming whoosh... Would it be possible to compare the sounds of longbow, recurve and compound from the target point of view - how much difference does arrow speed make and size of fletches and vanes... Is there a sound advantage to compound bows in hunting?
It is a great question, are we tuning our bows wrong? Need to check this out. I have been hunting over 35 years with a bow, never had a problem with string jumping till now. I am very disturbed by it. Happened 3 times this season 2 whitetails and an aoudad sheep. It was like watching the "Matrix" they flexed around the arrow. Are they hearing the arrow? The release? I to have hearing lose issues, there are many noises I can not hear. Just how well do deer and aoudads hear? Thanks for the video, wish you would do some more, you're a great teacher.
I think we agree a higher brace height quiets a bow and one should look for it.. I have a 1970 old browning 52" recurve @47lb. that I have been told brace height should be 7.5 to 8.5 however I have had to go to 9 in. to get a quiet bow shot . My question is this , is that extra .5 in. safe or hurt full to my bow or should I move it down and except some noise and hand vibration. And by the way I shoot split finger glove. Your thought please. Thank you
Depends on the age and construction of the bow. That extra half inch will put more pressure on the bow. Sound only matters if you are hunting, if your not then why worry about the sound your bow makes?
Thanks for your quick reply. Hunting is my primary archery activity. I was just thinking the excess vibration and hand shock ( which is substantial below 9")) would be as hard on or more so then the increased pressure. Along with increase missed hits on game due to excessive.noise. Enjoying your very well made videos.
Sorry if this has been asked, or answered before, but I saw your badges in your riser, and was curious how you did that without damaging the bow or the badges? I'd like to do something similar with my EOD badge.
Simple epoxy. I even removed them off of one and re-refinished it. If you want to use the prongs on the back of the badge (Drill small holes if you do) or just snap them off, file it flat and epoxy it.
Reckon the feathers are the main source of the whoosh noise. So, the smaller the feathers the quieter the arrow, also parabolics are probably best as they are least likely to 'flap' around in flight. Just my thoughts, may be a load of nonsense?
Yep, so does string material, string design, bow design, string silencers and a few other things. But remember they all affect the sound it makes, but not how loud it is in decibels.
Are you changing nock point when going back and forth? The two different string grips can stress the limbs differently so the usual practice is to adjust nock point to compensate, such that the limbs are being pulled the same way. Not throwing cold water on your results and the interpretation, it’s just a variable that could have been controlled for. If someone's nock point was set for split, three under could become louder due to the arrow slapping the shelf, or the recurve limbs slapping the string in unusual ways. I have seen this myself, actually. Bow was quiet with split, loud three under. Change of nock point, result was quiet three under.
That is why I used two different bows. One is set for split and the other for three under. I tested both with each and found no measurable difference in sound levels. What many mix up is that the sound level (decibels) and the sound (tone). They can be different in tone, but same in decibel. This is what i believe is happening. What you hear next to you is not what is heard down range either. That is the biggest thing i took from this.
Don't know didn't test it. How many people hunt with a thumb Ring? I did this because i have heard people make the claim about which is quieter, so i though I would test it to find out.
@@CenturianCornelious As I said they are a graphical representation. It is from a video editing program. The decibel meter that i used showed no difference. Please state why you feel it "Clearly" shows it is louder.
@@TradArchery101 Okay, well, taller spikes indicate greater magnitude. That is, the spikes depict electrical impulses sent to the computer (could as well have been an oscilloscope ). Current induced by the microphone in reaction to sound is greater in voltage when sound striking the mic is louder, as shown by taller spikes. Distance between the spikes indicates pitch. Spikes spaced farther apart mean a lower pitch. At 11:00 the twenty yard test shows taller spikes for three under. So, more current induced by more sound volume. At 7:38 and 8:22 we see taller spikes associated with split finger. However I am discarding these results because, as you point out, these measurements are taken close up, not at a distance that might be heard by a game animal. (BTW, that was a good distinction added to the testing. Doubt I would have thought of that.) Still wondering why the split finger produced taller spikes at close range. I suspect it has to do with differences in harmonics produced when releasing at the center of the string as opposed to off center. ...On second thought, I note that the colors used for three under and split finger respectively change throughout the video. Is it possible these were mixed up? It's an extremely interesting and idea for a video. Just not sure I agree with your assessment of the data. But I could be wrong!
The problem is not with how it is done, but the breakdown. Look at that chart, you cannot tell how much of a difference there is. Is it .1 or .4 db? So what looks like it might be louder by a decent enough amount for you to notice may in actuality be only 0.2db. Might I suggest you do your own testing and make a video about it, would love to see your findings.
So a blind person CAN hear an arrow ....or spider sense can feel it.....or.....are you revealing another dimension....!?!...:).....nice detective work....now for the real stealth arrows..wherever Jackie chan keeps them....
