Training Without Conflict Podcast Episode Nine: The Disadvantages of Low Level E-Collar Conditioning 

One of the greatest minds in dog training. Anyone training dogs should listen to this.

This is a MUST to listen to if you are a dog trainer (or dog owner) that is trying to understand how to use an ecollar wisely and humanely. Ivan is incredibly experienced in all things dog and I am proud to call myself aTWC certified trainer. Thank you, Ivan, for your passion to make all dogs somebody!❤️🐈‍⬛

I will say I think whatever the dog training professional industry can do to lessen the division and animosity between philosophy camps is really important. We can all co-exist and there are laws against animal cruelty already on the books in every country/state/municipality. No credible professional trainer is aiming to harm any dog by using training tools. Many times the combination of techniques and tools is HIGHLY variable depending on the dog/ the issues/ the owner’s ability/willingness in handling and the time in which you can effect change which results in measured success. It’s not one size fits all, it’s not one way or no way. Empower the dog and empower the owner. Save dogs lives from ending up in shelters or abandonment. That should be our goal, not fighting each other and forcing legislation etc. to satisfy ones own philosophical beliefs. Thank you for your sharing and expertise.

Cant wait to listen to this later! I usually teach leash pressure responsiveness first, and then condition the stim by pairing it with the pressure. Stim becomes a leash at any distance. As far as motivating a dog, letting your guard down and getting goofy and fun. Always fun, everything is fun. You have to let go of all of that stuff that builds up as we get older, the walls and the rigidness, self conciousness.

I admire your patience how you explain everything step by step

Thank you - very, very informative. By putting it into the context of learning theory, it makes such clear sense why low-level stim is problematic. Your analogies are concise and a great help for answering questions when people ask me why I don’t use low-level stim. I am not a dog trainer, just a dog owner with a happy, extremely motivated GSD! We’ve used the ecollar for 2 years (she’s 4 years old) as a backup safety when she’s off leash. Rarely have to “tap” her, as her obedience is solid. But when I have had to use it, she responds. I never want her to become de-sensitized to it or confused by it.

Ivan, I just finished listening to your last podcast. You will be surprised, but it is my favorite. I love it. Overuse of electrics is my obsession. Some times I just have to pretend that I have to return to my car because I can’t stand watching what my friends doings to totally confused dogs.

Lots to think through, consider, and more fully integrate into e-collar use in my program. Not going to jump onto any particular side in regard to ideology… but some compelling ideas here to to be aware of. Thank you for sharing your well thought out experience & perspective - to help us all consider these tools more thoroughly.

I fell into this trap when i first started training. Pointlessly tried using activation to get a better performance. Lucky i could read my dog and realised it was all BS. I also looked at the dogs of people who preach these methods, and they all LACK motivation. Play is the real motivator. I hope one day I can manage to do your course. Thank you for sharing TRUE KNOWLEDGE so freely, i wish i had this to watch when i first started my journey.

Hi Ivan, thanks for sharing the knowledge. We would love to see Bart Bellon in your Podcast, the conversation between you two regarding e-collar will be very educative for us to watch and learn from. He's very knowledgeable in what he does and his view are a bit different from yours, hence the conversation from such episode of your Podcast will be very educative to watch, since it will be a highly intelligent and healthy debate.

I hope this gets shared throughout dog training communities. Simple well spoken and you can tell your pouring your heart in your message. Thank you

Thank you for doing this video! Low level conditioning never made sense to me and you explained very well why this is not a good option in dog training. Your explanation on giving the dog an opportunity to beat the stim vs giving stim prior to command (I believe you called it activation) was very informative and clearly explained. Thanks again!

Hello Ivan thank you for this eye opening podcast so profound about e-collar and more. Discovered you via Andy Krueger. Your wisdom will definitely help with my amazing 14month old Malinois. new sub from Madrid, Spain.

Man, I am so looking forward to listening to this in its entirety. Thank you for all of your time, Ivan!

Thanks for taking the time to put this out in public , We are on the same wave length , agree with so much of what you say , would love to Challenge you with some direct questions that others fear to ask . Good debate should sometimes can be Controversial yet still civil , it should be constructive . We need people with your skillset and achievements to talk openly I salute you .

Thank you for these videos Ivan. I'm only coming across them now but they are invaluable, thank you for sharing your views so freely. Hope to see you at IACP gatherings moving forward

Super enlightening podcast! I really never considered using stim as an aversive, although I'm aware of using it to create a superstition. I use the vibe as an aversive though. However, I love the point about owners thinking they can do whatever with the collar because their dog is "trained." My elderly parents' dog went to board and train to get e collar trained and my dad only uses the red button and my mom only vibes the dog despite my protests. It makes me wonder about my own clients, I hope I have been a better educator and that my parents don't hear me because I'm their kid. Thanks for this one Ivan, very 🤯🤯🤯

Very excited to hear your uninterrupted thoughts, Ivan! Much love and revelation for your ongoing journey of learning/mastery

I'd like to ask WHY trainers must be "ranked" by there successes in competitions. As a 71 year old, who competed to UK KC Champion Level in the 70's and 80's. By the way WE were penalised for a dog working in a suppressed way. My dog and I became addicted, didn't win much, that wasn't the objective. My reason for using the ecollar was to be able to communicate with my dog when audible commands could not be heard.[wind, waves crashing over rocks]. 2 years later, she still regards a momentary stim at low level as a YES marker. BUT I still train my OLD fashioned way in that, like a leash correction, only when needed, and only once. I CANT hold down the button, any more than I could hang my dog with continued leash pressure. I bought your Chase and Catch video, it was just how I've ALWAYS played fetch with my dog and a ball. There is nothing new in dog training. I will NEVER train a dog to become SO obsessed again. Completely broke my dog when she had to retire, no longer went to shows. My present dog wears the ecollar when out because I live among sheep, with Hares, which bolt when she is a couple of feet away, immediate recall, if she chased, she would end up among the sheep, be accused of chasing them, and shot. I could not use "superstitious behaviour" on ALL the potential prey species, I have taught her myself as remote Scottish islands aren't flush with dog trainers. I haven't found one in the UK with my length of experience, or number of dogs owned, and trained throughout their [the dogs] lives. At least one continuously for over 50 years

Thank you for sharing this video, it was very helpful! I'm new to using the e-collar and want to approach it thoughtfully. The low-level stim conditioning instructions provided with the e-collar, and similar instructions I received from several pet dog trainers, didn't sit well with me. I stopped 'conditioning' my dog with this method after one session and searched for information from more experienced trainers like yourself. After watching your video, I now understand the reasons behind what my intuition was telling me. Lesson learned about getting e-collar training information from reputable, proven sources!

I loved this Ivan, it’s so empowering being encouraged to think more deeply about remote collar usage, and I’ve certainly found it very depressing watching some of the (popular, sadly) so called ‘balanced’ trainers posting video after video of flat and resigned looking dogs with absolutely no enthusiasm or joie de cover in their demeanour being put through tedious and dull, never ending reps of pointless (to the dog) commands and all with low level stim being applied prior to every relentlessly boring command. I really hope this episode does bring about some rethinking of practice and the discussions that are so needed to see us using the remote collar as little as possible for maximum benefit for the dog and society. More people need to learn the art of making their dog LOVE doing what they want them to and forming an amazing relationship with their dog, that would be a start!! Learning who your dog IS and how to truly motivate him is a step so many people miss out completely before they go and buy a remote collar!

You just cannot drop this on people's lap and walkout. If low level stim ecollar training is detrimental to dogs, it is immoral and unethical not to explain/discuss what should replace it. I am not asking you to let loose of your IP but you should be able to donate an hour of your time to give a high level overview. Do not do it for us, do it for the dogs.

Thank you for taking the time for all your podcasts . I am a low level ecollar handler and i really appreciate this topic due to my dogs challenges. I am looking forward to learn new methods so i can help my dog .

Such a clear, logical and educated explanation. Beautiful!

I’m a pet dog owner that used the Cornerstone Series as a basis to teach obedience and help an adult Australian Cattle Dog I got from a shelter through some strong reactivity issues. I also used low stim conditioning to teach recall with an ecollar, per the instructions. The dog now wears the ecollar when off leash in public, but I rarely use the collar. I subscribe to the concept that if you’re constantly nagging the dog with the collar, you have not taught the dog the recall command. Ivan, I am interested in how you teach with the ecollar, but won’t likely be going to your school as a pet dog owner. Are there any resources you would recommend?

Keep the podcasts flowing, they’re amazing!

See Ivan, this is why we need to know your way, because around 39 minutes you are saying, it doesn't infact prepare the dog, however, ive done e collar a few ways, if im teaching a recall, and i just hit the dog on a 15-20 right away, EVEN if the dog knows the recall, probably 80% of the dogs ive worked with, pet dogs, would be running in the other direction, where as if you do the conditioning and them how to shut off pressure, they will recall to you right away if i have to jump from a 6-7 to a 15-20.

Hard to argue your points. I’ve never bought into the low level training.

Yesss! Will make a few heads spin and hopefully start a discussion about what truly helps dogs AND owners. You can’t help a dog unless you help their person.

Thank you for this! It gets really confusing with the different training of E-collar use.

This will be a good one!! Very excited to listen to this. Thank you again as always.

Brilliant as usual, thank you for sharing your wisdom with us all!

I wish I had seen this three years ago. Very good information that makes a lot of sense.

I’ve seen a literal metric tonne of trainers use low stim with great success.

beautiful presentation , i totally agree with your interpretation and i cant see how one can argue with it, and maybe people can see the light now, i tried to explain to some people the concepts you presented but off-course i could not understand or explain to the level you just did .

This is food for thought. I wad train to use low condionate and i thought it make sense. After listening to this podcast, it totally make since that low and high is not equally the same.

thank you i feel like your information is priceless!

Another great video from the best trainer in the world.

Another amazing podcast. Thanks for the content Ivan!

love your stuff, appreciate the knowlege you bring, as well as the the conversations! As long as you communicate clearly, could you not use "all" methods of e-collar training? Keep it consistent, clear, and reinforced properly, it's all about the language you speak with the dog

Thank you for this.

Really interesting 👏 Thank you Ivan

Thanks for the content Ivan excelente for me .

So Insightful,Thank you !

Makes a lot of sense. Glad I watched

Definitely a must listen for any dog trainer

Awesome episode! For reference and back ground can anyone tell me what the previous episode was so I can listen to that as well? Thanks

Thank you so much!

How would you go about “fixing” a dog that has been low level stim conditioned in order to use the collar to effectively correct inappropriate behaviors?

So is it because the E collar gives the person the opportunity to correct the dog with negative reinforcement too easy or is it that electricity is innately different than any other negative reinforcement. Why is it different than correcting with a prong collar or anything else once the dog knows it's coming from the human? I agree with his points about stim before or at the same time as command being totally wrong!!

Ayyyy super excited about this

I love your podcasts but after listening to your podcast, I think you made some very strong arguments as to why we should not be using the collar.

Great podcast, Thank you.

@ 47:50 the word you're reaching for is "inured": accustom (someone) to something, especially something unpleasant.

i would like to understand what his method is to compare it to the low stim method but i dont have 10 grand to spend to find out

I understand the logic of your argument that conditioning/low level stim can result in them getting used to the stim resulting in the need for a higher level. Fine, but it seems that you estimate the correct level of stim based on your experience with thousands of dogs. How does one determine the appropriate level to start with their dog?

Ivan, I think you really need to set up a podcast with Bart Bellon to really understand how to use a stem collar the correct way before you cut it down .

people like this man are few and far between

Do you have a virtual/online ecollar course or lecture regarding your methods? I'd like to sign up-in Ontario so I need online option 🙏

This is a "must watch" for anyone who uses e-collars. Very informative!

HELL YEA!! Love this.

Thank you Sir 👍💪💕💕💕

Thank you for taking your time to do this, it's a very interesting video. I am taking it that only positive punishment is used in your e collar program whereas many others would use negative reinforcement? I also understand from the video that you do not condition the e collar, just desensitise? I also think you are relying on the dog using its flight instincts when e collar stim is used? What would happen if a dog displays a fight type response to the initial higher level e collar stim? So instead of the dog thinking, yep I wont do that again, it actually becomes agitated by the stim as it doesn't understand it? Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, here to learn!

the conditioning does not make sense at all, by how i understand so far after reviewing multiple information- if you need to teach a dog in a high state of mind where he will ignore a clear signal and you cant progress with your teaching because of that, you need to make the dog respond and guide him in the response without risking a mental breakdown, which means that you have to use a level appropriate for the situation so "low" or "high" means nothing and i think it must have something to do with the e-collars' (and your) ability to dial the level up without turning the stimulation off, but to do it efficiently you yourself must not panick and be quick to adress the situation so in my view the recall command is something like "out" the environment, then we will go back in to enjoy it

Ivan, I’m a big fan of your podcast. Does any of your online courses teach your method on how to use the e-collar?

This changed my mind.

What about trainers who never go over the dogs initial low level? Still bad? What about using the vibrate function?

Ivan, It was not clear in this podcast or the podcast you did with Larry Krohn about how you actually use the ecollar. In both videos (the only 2 videos of yours that I have watched) you actually said that you weren’t going over how you use the ecollar cause you don’t want to give that away for free. Which is your right, but it really does hurt your case and makes it feel like it’s just your opinion. It also makes it feel like just your opinion when you say that things are just illogical as evidence as to it not being the right way. It maybe illogical to you but it isn’t to many people. It is hard to deny all the good dogs that use low level stim. One thing you said that I do 100% agree with is how you stated that inconsistency creates neurosis. But that has nothing to do with low level stim. It has everything to do with the handler. Any handler that is inconsistent with a dog with any tool with create neurosis, not just the ecollar. One point you didn’t go over with low level stim is how stim is pressure. Pressure can be used to incentivize a dog to do a behavior. Whether it’s pressure on a leash or pressure with an ecollar. If one uses pressure to teach or just to hold a dog accountable to a behavior the lowest level of pressure should be used. Whether that is 2 fingers of pressure on a leash or a level 10/127 on a dogtra… Now leash pressure is directional and ecollar pressure isn’t, so the dog must know the behavior and be taught how to release the pressure. And that’s a low level stim condition that really works well. It also requires the handler to be very consistent. Pet dog owners aren’t the best at consistency and that is really where they fail. Not necessarily with the application of tools.

Love seeing new content from you Ivan keep it coming brother! Very informative! Remember my name because I will be on your twc course in the very near future 🙏

Firstly, thank you for being so generous with your time and explanation. Instead of jumping into the many questions/statements I have, maybe it's best to keep it very simple/direct so that my brain can move on with processing this discussion. My question is, would it be fair to say that you only see value in the e-collar as a punishment tool and not a helpful aid in negative reinforcement? Please know that I am not trying to be accusatory or inflammatory in asking this question, that was just a major point I felt you kept hitting on and I want to be sure I understand that piece before further moving on to dissect the information.

This is what i take from this podcast: If you want to use the e-collar to stop a behavior, you should: 1. not condition low level 2. dont fry the dog. start with something reasonable and increase in bigger jumps and not one by one. How much will differ depending on the vendor and where experience comes to play. 3. have the e-collar on the dog a few days before starting to use it and also after so the dog does not associate the stim with the e-collar 4. don't give a command before using the e-collar so the dog associates the stim with the behavior and not with the command which you might still want to use but dont want the dog to expect a correction (or this type of correction). 5. use it to solve only one big problem (or at least one problem at a time) and dont try to use it as a magic button that solves it all. nothing replaces a healthy relationship. If you want to use the e-collar as a communication device when the dog is leash free: 1. do low level conditioning. 2. if you want to correct the dog with the e-collar, use your 'no' command and correct if it does not listen. the same you would do with a leash. 3. dog has to have decent basic obedience before you can do low level conditioning. ---- you can use low level communication after solving the big problem but not the other way around because if the dog associated the stim with the handler it will not associate it with the trigger. My problem with this is that usually big problems like aggression to other dogs are signs of distress and usually when owners learns some handling, the aggression stops. So the only time i can think of that you'll want to use an e-collar, is when having more than one handler to the same dog and also than, only if one of them has a problem understanding basic handling. Another example would be dogs that bark on noises and people/dogs outside. Where i live some trainer use stim every time the dog barks until it learns to ignore the outside. but in reality, i dont think that what happens. the barking is a sign of distress and suppressing the reaction does not suppress the stress and you might have an even more terrified dog because "the threat" is still there but it cannot do anything about it. The problem with low level conditioning is that you can teach a dog everything to the an off leash dog without e-collar, so why even bother? The only thing i can think of you would want to teach an off leash dog, is another command for it to recall with a high stim. So if it runs off and chasing something and does not respond to regular recall, you give it the warning punishment is coming.

Totally understand and makes all the sense when it comes to the conditioning phase etc. However, are you advocating that using a lower stim as negative reinforcement is counterproductive? If so, do you not use negative reinforcement as much? Thanks!

I agree whole heartedly. The e collar has been such a crutch for the trainer community in terms of low level stim. I could ask 10 of these types of trainers how to charge a marker without a collar, and 8 of them wouldn’t even know how to do what I just asked.

I see Tom from Upstate misleading his customers by demonstrating a low level on them and turning it up until they can feel it. Then he says the dog is stimmed at at a much lower level...but in truth that is only for habituation and later he turns it up on the dog for every command. Creepily dishonest.

Sweden had a ban in 1994 and there is no so called experts in the use of e- collars that you can go to. The dogtraining community in large have no use for e-collars in any aspect. We do well without it. I have never understood the big fear of banning the tool. Isn't better to learn how to train dogs with as less tools as possible?

Idk my dogs have all understood how to turn the collar off on low level. If I put it on near a place cot for example they jump on super fast and motivated. I had to use the collar once when my dog was chasing my sheep (playfully though) "working leve" is 8. I pressed it on a 45 once. I get the brain gets used to it but honestly Ive seen it go the other way. My Malinois got more sensitive to feeling it and then feels it lower and when up high the few times Ive done it he yelps and its still not like 100. Id rather use it lower as communication as I really dont need a collar much as single event learning.

Interesting Perspective Thank you very much.😜 I've witnessed both extremes on more than one occasion unfortunately. You're suggesting that there's a happy medium for all parties involved? I've wanted to know others well qualified opinions for quite some time. Thanks for sharing 💯 Not everyone does, Why do you?

Ivan would you be willing to invite Bart and have civil conversation about training in general and ecollars in specific?

Powerful truth

Great stuff, question: who can I email with questions about the different trainings that are offered? I tried directly on the contact form on the TWC website but have yet to hear back after a week. Thanks.

you are so freaking awesome! WOW!

It’s interesting that you are saying that even the guidance provided by e-collar manufacturers is dangerous. You are saying low stim is dangerous …..and those who whack dogs with high level shock is dangerous. But the e-collar is good when used “correctly”. How many overall users are using it “correctly”, versus how much misuse and damage to dogs? That’s where the push to ban certain tools comes from, the overall net damage to dogs, which you are also acknowledging.

I have been trying to get info on the professional certification

How do I get information about your school? I would really like to look into that for myself!?

Kim Kardashian broke the internet in 2014. Ralph broke the internet in 2018. Ivan Balabanov breaks the internet in 2022. This podcast is 💣🔥🧨

In my opinion “conditioning” is wrong word or it require more explanation. The whole process comes from NePoPo which include pressure in dog training. Low level stim is used to teach dog how to escape pressure which can be used later as escape & avoidance technique in dog training. PS. Sorry for my English. I’m from Poland.

Interesting. You cannot stop Pica or chasing with low levels that's for sure. There are no magic wands that I know of in dog training. Never have I used an E Collar and commands at the same time. information must be given prior to use in my opinion. I am stunned that you said some trainers use 30+ stims in a session. I find that worrying. I don't use mine that often in a year I don't think. Thanks for taking the time to do this, so much to make people think.

I respectfully disagree with your hypothesis. I do not see using the ecollar as a tool (at low levels), or using a leash (at low levels) to teach or guide a dogs behavior, as being any different. I also don’t see the use of a ecollar (at a high level), or a leash at a high level, as an correction, to be any different. They both can serve the same purposes. If the use of an ecollar, at lower levels, will require it to be used at higher levels for correction (because of habituation), I have no problem with this. The same thing could be true of leash pressure. To me your way of thinking is taking away half the value of the ecollar. In addition you do not discuss the use of the ecollar when off leash. In my case because I train upland game hunting dogs, I can have a dog recall on a very low level (let’s say level 6- of 100) when I cannot see him. I find this to be of great value. In some cases I train this with the use of tone. I don’t see the use of the ecollar at low level as necessarily being a punishment. Perhaps as an annoyance like tapping the dog with touch, or using a word like his name, or hey. I see it no different than a very long leash. My dogs run to get the ecollar on when I present it. They know they are about to do some fun stuff. What if you just use the ecollar for low level training by layering with known command, and you never use it for punishment or elevation of behaviors (high levels)?. I really do see the use of low level stem, and I mean low, as just another method of communicating with my dog. The leash can be used as help or punishment, as can the ecollar. Here’s an explanation of the point I’m trying to make from someone who’s a much better communicator than myself. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-C1V-2qNr2aI.html

Anyone have good book recommendations on how dogs learn authored by people who actually study dogs?

I like your methods and training but with low level stim I feel your interpretation is off. I like the collar as a communication tool and rarely use it as a negative punishment. I teach the dog all the cues that I need via conventional means, leash and positive reinforcement. I overlay the Ecollar using the same cue cadence. Two tugs on a leash = turn, two toots on a whistle = turn and two taps on the Ecollar = turn. If I did this at a high correction type level the dog would view it as a harsh correction and not perform as well with an Ecollar on. In the case of disobedience to the two toots of the turn whistle I now have the option to deliver a correction level stim from the Ecollar that is understood and felt as two mid level taps to comply. I condition a recall in the same fashion with a long lead and positive reinforcement and overlay the collar cues with the whistle commands. I only use the Ecollar for two cues and find after a few correction level stim from the Ecollar I no longer need the collar. Clear communication tool…taught low level, clarified with a higher level for disobedience with a language and cadence the dog understands.

Get ready for a good one!

Very interesting podcast, thank you Ivan. Couple of things I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. While I do low stim conditioning, generally in the 3 to 5 range, I have personally never seen the need to jump up to much higher levels for correction. I also find that by using the pressure on, pressure off system at low levels also tends to build the relationship and then also many of the annoying behaviors tend to fade away anyways. I am working with mostly mixed breed, pitbull type dogs and not the high drive working dogs that I think you are mostly referring to in the podcast.

Love

I feel like the ecollar then is a reinforcer to prevent a dog from doing something perhaps, so that they dont get into trouble. you can also train the dog to turn it off by doing a command. However, you cant ask your dog to do something and then blast him.

I'm curious why you didn't have this conversation with Michael Ellis when you had him on a few months ago. He is a proponent of low level conditioning and it's hard to argue with his success using it. That would've been a great conversation.

Do you ever let people come visit and tour your facility?

Heck..... I hope people get it now... you couldn't have said and explained it clearer 🤦‍♀

I was taught you need to make sure the dog dosen't shit on himself when first using the e-collar, but this is starting to change my opinion.

Out of interest, who makes your top 10?

I'd like to comment, however, it would be difficult to compose a respectful, credible and comprehensive statement of my thoughts on this topic in a short comment here. I appreciate that you dedicated two hours to your presentation; well organized and well presented. I also appreciate your position of no magic, no shortcuts in good dog training. Never-ending conquest of knowledge, details, open-minded study, practice, experience -- the path to better training. I found some of your arguments logical and compelling ... and some not. No matter, because the issue for me has to do with the scope of what you consider to be low level ecollar technique. It seems that you are talking about a technique that emphasizes a low level phase. Apparently, though, the technique also includes escalation of intensity above the initial, low intensity. Also, I gather that this technique ultimately is established as an escape/avoidance technique. If those two characteristics are true of the technique that you are advocating against, then I am here to say that there is another eollar technique utilizing low intensity stimulation that is not subject to the arguments you are making here. I have learned to use the ecollar at low intensity with great success. No escalation to higher intensity. Not escape avoidance. Momentary, low level stimulation is conditioned to reinforce a known command that the dog is already doing correctly. I learned the technique from Bill Hillmann, a very successful and well known trainer in the community of Retrievers and Field Trial competitions. I have not trained the many thousands of dogs that you have probably trained, but I have trained close to 100 using this technique. Bill Hillmann has certainly trained thousands. The results have been consistently excellent and reliable with dogs of a broad range of temperament and drive. Important to note: • the ecollar is not the central element of the technique; it is a valuable tool to strengthen and enhance the results. • the ecollar is not used to suppress; the training system is based on continuous escalation of fun, drive, speed, power, motivation. The target attitude for learning. • after the ecollar conditioning phase, stimulation frequency is drastically reduced; dogs compete "naked" and could not be successful without a fully engaged, stylish attitude with precise obedience. • This technique as taught by Bill Hillmann is NOT the predominant ecollar technique practiced by the performance retriever community.