Join my Discord! discordapp.com/invite/VmRqA3P Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/thepedanticromantic ...or through a one-time donation at Ko-Fi:ko-fi.com/thepedanticromantic
I've been crossdressing recreationally for like 5 years but still identify as a guy so "trap" doesn't offend me and I feel like it's okay to call me and similar situation people it. However I know many trans people and the term gets thrown their way more than mine and its really cruel and shitty. Thanks for showing both sides of the coin.
in that case its kindof like calling someone attractive/not, since they (those that use trap) make the distinction that you can only be a trap if you fool them as being a woman not a cross dressing male
When I first heard that the word, "trap," refers to cisgender cross dressers it made a lot of sense to me. After all, trans people aren't trying to trick anybody, so I had bought into that idea. However, I didn't know the history of that term and was unaware of the context of its use until seeing this video. Thank you for the correction.
@@11111110 Wrong. Trans people aren't hiding anything. The act of transitioning is to present themselves as they honestly feel they are. Have you ever spoken to a trans person before?
@@11111110 I know this is 2 years old but incase you still see this the suicidal thing is from constant discrimination not the public's perception of their gender
There are people who trick other people without wearing opposite sex clothes. "Crossdresser" is more accurate to talk about a person who wears opposite sex clothes. "Trap" never means "crossdresser" to begin with. "Transvestite" can also work since it uses "Tran- (cross)" and "vest (dress)".
@@LuigiTheMetal64 trap has always been a word use to referred to a cisgender male who intends to keep their gender nebulous in a teasing way. It was only recently incorporated as a term trans people used for themselves and much more recently turned into a slur.
i’m a trans male. i’ve been called a reverse trap a lot. it hurts because they don’t see me as the gender i want to be seen as. thanks for making this video. very educational
Omg i tired explaining to this one guy who (at the time LOVED anime) how I was trans and he said "so you're a reverse trap?" And I had to explain "I am not a girl who is dressing as a guy to confuse you, I am a guy in and out." It felt so annoying that I was just deemed a girl who is living as a guy, but I think he ended up understanding.
I'm not trans, nor gay, I'm a straight male, but I always had many girl clothes even tho I don't have a sister. I always had long hair. From time to time I just go out in girl clothes, with make-up, speak with a higher pitched voice and overall act like a girl. I even go on parties like that sometimes. I just like seeing how people react when they find out. I do it for fun
People like us agree that it is offensive to call a boy like Kyouya Shinomiya a "trap" for wearing girl clothes, despite the fact the girls tied him to a chair and forced him to wear those said clothes. "Trap" does not mean cross dress nor cute boys. "Trap" can refer to an obstacle course or a capturing device. And "cute" is never a fancy name for feminine. "Cute" means attractive in an endearing way. People need to get the vocabulary right.
Also, anyone can have long hair. Long hair is not what makes someone a female. That would be like saying short hair makes someone a male, which is not the case. There are plenty of cultures where men grow their hair long.
Once a guy asked if I was a trap because in my bio it says that I am trans. I got so mad and so sad, but I explained him anyway that we are not traps, we are not fooling anyone, we are just being ourselves.
It is important to understand that "trap" was never used to refer to "transvestites/crossdressers". There are ways to trick people without wearing opposite sex clothes. Ryoko Asakura is a trap, but she is a girl who never wears boy clothes. She stabbed Kyon when he was not looking. The way online users take existing words from English or other languages and make up meanings is a problem since they are trying to control people's language. "Trap" itself is not offensive. It is the way it is being used is offensive. If someone were to call a singer a "blanket", that would be equally as wrong as calling a crossdresser a "trap".
@@LuigiTheMetal64 Well, the thing is that people use trap to refer to transgender people and crossdressers. It is offensive because it implies that we are fooling the other person to believe that we are the opposite sex, which is incorrect as we are not trying to fool anyone. So yeah, using the term trap sucks
Hehe only trans people would see that and think trans... hint hint... Anyway yes I’m trans. I don’t care what others think just don’t hurt me. We exist as much as everyone else and if you don’t think we do than whatever... My physiology in my body is more and more female everyday😁 “The good thing about science is that it’s true whether you believe in it.” - Neil DeGrasse Tyson Hope you all have a wonderful beautiful life😁
Just a fun reminder that crossdressing is "dressing as a gender you are not" Being trans is "presenting as a gender you were not born as, but identify as" Therefore, both trans and cis people are able to crossdress. A FTM is able to crossdress as a woman just like a Cis male is. A FTM man dressing masculine is not crossdressing, because they identify as the gender they are presenting as. Edit: apparently I need to add in here that I MYSELF am trans. I don't need to be corrected on my own gender
@@grimmria Usually, yeah. But there's a difference between embodiment and performance which doesn't make it so this is ALWAYS the case. I can and do play characters in role-playing games with a different gender than mine and am oft forced to in most video games, which is fine! When you are performing as a character of another gender; it's inherently different and a detached experience from when you, the person underneath are gendered. However there's some bleed that can occur between the two things, and it can lead to dysphoria or euphoria in the individual. Or neither! How many trans people "cross-dressed" for Halloween or w/e and then later on realized they liked being gendered as that character was? Dysphoria can often bleed over in the same way.
Hey sorry, I do have to be the one to correct definitions over here. (This is from the Transgender Language Primer, and are all descriptive definitions, based on popular use in Queer communities.) www.translanguageprimer.org/primer Trans is for people whose presentation *or* *gender* don't match their birth assignment. Crossdresser is someone who dresses as and/or presents themselves as a gender other than the one with which they generally identify.
Fuck the X-games, Japan got the X-gender. It's just like the X-games but instead with a bunch of people who are questioning their gender or are already Trans
This has nothing to do with Dungeons and Dragons trap design and methodology. How dare you, good citizen! *walks away muttering about Cannon Behind the Door* My hydras, liches, and manticores have no use for this information.
I need to bookmark this in case people in my server ask why I tell them to refrain from using the word 'trap.' Fucking superb you funky little analyst.
@@littleghost7217 Question, how do you not use Trap in a Transphobic way? If you're using Trap to refer to a Trans person (Most likely a Trans woman) or a character that's heavily coded as Trans then how is it not?
I just want to say that I really support your more social-based content. I'm sure you don't need me saying this, but please don't let dislikes or whatever discourage you from continuing. Simply having a voice like yours talking about this stuff makes this community better.
@@onesyphorus In this case, because people can't bring themselves to understand trans people better. That being said, the video has 30k likes, which are also there for a reason, it being the support of people that actually know the "trap" shit is an issue.
A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man" @@lovebunny2652
I had no idea lily was actually a trans girl. When I watched the show I thought the hair was just weird genetics, because some girls can grow facial hair. But that makes sense.
I also didn't know shit about Ferrys (Ferrys? I dunno, didn't hear it properly). Always thought she was a femboy, I even used her appearence to represent a male RPG character I once played. I dunno if it's the portuguese (my language) dub or just poor wording on the anime itself, but remember her being referred as "him" (and even as a boy directly) multiple times, and the use of the name "Felix" didn't help me get the right idea at all. I must admit: I'm in shock after this video.
Absolutely love that when it's explained that Lily is trans, the reaction from the rest of the group is "oh, wow, I wouldn't have guessed" and then THAT'S IT because it's not important to the current conflict. The PROBLEM is that she's dead. Her being trans is only relevant to the episode's conflict in that it helps explain what killed her.
i also LOVED that her dad still loved her and that the writers didn’t use her transness as a vehicle for drama! he loved her and supported her transition which is why the song dedicated to him hits so hard ;_;
dum dumm yes good shit wholesome absolute unit of a man love his daughter no matter what. Supportive parents of trans kids ftw. Very good i definitly cried.
My issue with that reaction comes from the fact i feel it was a missed opportunity. Junko is from the 80s and Yuugiri is from the 1800s. Both of them are from times long before trans people were widely accepted and as such I was expecting them to have a harder time accepting it. Then again Lily's gender wasn't the focus of the episode and they clearly wanted to focus on her relationship with her father.
Darkrai110 trans people were loved and accepted in their own circles even way back in time. Yugiri and Junko are probably just people who already accepted the existence of trans people. it’s not productive (or wanted) to spend a long time focusing on transphobia in a show like this.
FYI: The anime in the background is Stop! Hibari-kun!! Which is a very cute story about a trans girl. It's from the 80's so it's a work of its time, but most of the time the whole trans thing is treated with respect. Hibari is a wonderful and powerful trans character and the story has a lot of comedy in general. I recommend reading the manga, but the anime is also fine!! Unfortunately it doesn't have and end, but it's still worth it to check it out!
Okay, when l was younger, and still learning english (which l almost didn't knew anything) l had one teacher from America, he was the one who presented myself to the word "trap", he told me it meant "a boy pretending to be a girl or transgender". I used to think it was the right word, until l actually learned what it meant from a friend of mine. I was so ashamed to have ever used it.
Welp. I am convinced. I am a questioning person. Don’t know if I am NB, a trans woman, or what, and lately I’ve been exploring the trans community as up until this point I’ve been separate from it. For a while I never really cared about Trap as a term, and was chill with it. Even after being more active in the LGBT community there were actually a lot of slurs that I never really knew were slurs. Growing up in a isolated country down does that to you. Lately however with videos like this I feel like I’ve learned a lot about how these impact people. And yeah- Realizing that people use that term mostly to describe trans people...I really don’t like it much anymore. I could imagine being called that even if you ARE a cross dresser would be pretty rude and annoying, implying malicious intent. Thusly I am convinced. Trap’ll be removed entirely from my vocab. It’s really not necessary and only causes trouble.
You do you! the important part is being more comfortable in your own skin and you dont have to go balls to the walls day 1 to identify (although i am 2 weeks late) enjoy!
Just explore yourself and don’t worry too much about labels. Feel free to try things out. Read about other trans people’s experiences, both binary and non-binary. There’s a handful of trans youtubers I could recommend if you wish, although they’re afab (assigned female at birth, so their experiences differ quite a bit from those amab, assigned male at birth). A book I could recommend is “Sissy” by Jacob Tobia, a non-binary person. Remember that it’s completely fine and normal to switch labels, and remember that questioning your gender doesn’t necessarily mean you’re trans. It’s normal to come out of the questioning tunnel as cis. Regardless, take your time, and if you do turn out to be transgender, how other people perceive you to be doesn’t mean anything (in the context of being trans). Don’t feel you have to pass or that you have to be palatable to cis people. :^]
@@dwagon6706 I saw it used for a woman on TikTok recently and when I called them out, everyone ganged up on me. They were wondering if "she was a woman, or a trap" and I pointed out that she has she/her in her bio and they said that means nothing. When I told them traps are crossdressing boys, not trans women, they all ganged up on me and said it's the same thing. The term is ruined now. It's best to avoid it.
@@dearsol. special snowflakes that feel "threatened" because "they are the minority now" and "it's a choice that they won't date trans people, only people who was naturally born as male(case of super straight woman) or female (case of super straight man)"
@@Disheartthorn a superstraight is someone who believes that no matter what a trans person is not the same as a cis person (even though there are plenty of medical procedures that make the only difference between a trans person and a cis person the ability to reproduce using their identified gender and/or sex which some cis people themselves don't have that being infertile) then claim that they are only attracted to cis people and that there is a difference in trans people and that they basically will never be their identified gender. The main issue is that they only started creating it not to promote their sexuality, but to hate on trans people, even going as far as to say they want to replace the t in lgbt to s.
+Yamanii See the "Trans Kids" movement. They claim if your boy likes to wear a dress, or plays with dolls, he's actually a girl, and should be transitioning as old as 4 years old. The trans movement has gotten that batshit.
@@RecklessFire29 The irony of the trans movement using "socially conditioned gender roles" to decide if a kid is trans or not. Kid likes playing with "boy" toys, must be a boy etc. Or maybe the kid is a girl that likes to play with cars, because cars are cool, not because she wants a dick.
Its an explanation...well written is highly debatable. I mean when you hav eto lie about half your explanation it gets pretty pathetic. He really just expects you to not do any independent research to find out that yes, Trap =/= Trans, Trap does exist, none of these characters are trans.
@Cosmnia One The video doesn't claim Astolfo is a trans girl. The vid says they're non binary. Felix being trans due to retcon is still felix being trans.
michael hall Fair enough, I was being a dick. I don’t think you’re stupid at all, man. I just don’t understand why you feel the need to comment the same adverse shit over and over again on everybody’s reply chain. If this ain’t your thing, just chill out and move along.
Thanks so much for this. I remember seeing on Twitter people go as far as to say LGBT people don't exist in Japan. The things people say just because a character is trans....
Chloe Pechlaner Oh no, believe me, the only time that homosexuality was outlawed in Japan was due to their westernizing campaign, and only lasted a couple years. I’d have more more concrete citations for you, but I haven’t got any of it in front of me as I write this.
@@MaxIronsThird Not that I'm aware, no. I'm not very far into the series either though. I think it was just like. Pointing out a great coincidence (if the animators didn't do it on purpose :P)
Thank you so much for this video. I never even thought of "trap" as a potential slur with negative consequences. But upon reflection, it's kind of... obvious, since (as you mentioned) the very word implies that the person is trying to "trick" others about their gender... how about calling it the "trans as trickster" narrative for short!
Also, the term 'trap' has been used in a variety of places to dehumanize trans women for longer than the internet has even existed. Brazilians use the word "armadilha" which is the direct translation of trap to describe trans women and have been doing so for decades because of a culture that paints all trans women as sex workers, and therefore something to be on the lookout for when trying to 'score'.
Personally in my mind, it was less that the character's were being deceptive, although there might be cases of that, but the authors seemed to be trying to be deceptive. That's how I always thought of it. Especially when it did not seem like they were trying to really depict a trans character. But since maybe 3 years ago or so, I concluded that I had literally no issue being attracted to a quote unquote "trap" nor a real life Trans, and after this video... Yeah, there's a decent point that, if it is used as a slurr against people, and the term itself has negative connotations (again... especially if we're directing it at people and characters, not select authors, in jest or no), we should not be using it very often.
I also didn't think it was used out side of referring to anime. I am looking forward to when all the new social terms we can and can't use filter out so I know whats safe to say when talking about theses kinds of issues. Problem with that is all the differing groups each coming up with what they think is ok and few agreeing on much, so we the casual by standers who have nothing against them but end up getting more confused by the constant and quickly changing of terms and language that's now a no go. Yes will be very nice once it all settles out.
I always assumed that the point of trsps was that certain people enjoy being tricked and that the characters were not actually trans. The issue seems to be that authors are to afraid toportray trans characters explicitly? I was never into fate but I always believed Astolfo was the typical "hah, I was actually a boy all along" type.
@@GoblinCh. I mean, I get what you're saying, that if someone is called a trap, that could simply mean they're a convincing woman... But I don't think trans people are just trying to "convince" others (although that may be part of it)... I think they're trying to BE that gender. So when you say "wow good try, you really seemed like a girl!", that's also kind of saying that person still isn't ACTUALLY a girl. This may be a bad example... But imagine a pianist is performing. She is not very well-known, but her career is dedicated to performing piano. She is, or at the very least is striving to be, a professional. One of the audience members comes up afterwards and says "Wow! That was good! Your performance made you seem like a professional!" Isn't the whole "seem like a pro" part of that sentence almost... condescending? Someone actively working towards BEING something doesn't just want to be seen as a good imitator. They want to be seen as the real thing.
I didn't expect this video to be so in-depth and well-researched. Most 20-minute anime videos are just rambling opinion pieces, but you've pretty much covered everything there is to say on the topic. Looking forward to linking this to bad-faith dummies instead of wasting my precious free time "debating" them.
@Halpher "Well-researched" is a synonym for "something I agree with." Language gets complicated very quickly when you settle on either side of the "descriptive vs prescriptive" fence.
Well for one the video actually goes into where the term originates and offers alternatives, which is good because I had just recently seen someone argue that trap is a term that Japanese people have used for a long time to refer to feminine looking men.
To be honest, as a trans man, I've called myself a "trap" back when I was pre-transition, and actually found a lot of comfort in that title. For me it was an affirmation-I'm not a girl, I'm a guy who looked like a girl. but I understand that on the opposite side of that same coin, trans women feel *incredibly* insulted when called the term, because for them it says that they're not girls, they're guys that look like girls, which they aren't, because they're actually for real just girls. I can also see how other pre-transition trans men might be insulted to be called traps, though, as it might imply that we're predators trying to lure someone into a relationship with our feminine appearance only to actually be a man in disguise. It's a complicated subject. As such I think people should use it only to refer to themselves, or close friends who have given permission
Give me the wisdom not to look at the comments, give me the patience not to look at the comments, give me the self love not to look at the comments. Amen.
@@celinak5062 jihad is associated with terrorism. Does this mean normal muslims can't use it? of course they can. It's the same. or how nigga is synonymous for friend, unless it's -er and then it's bad. My philosophy is, i say what i want, and if someone is easily offended, then i won't bother trying to make them not feel offended.
This is a little embarrassing, but I think it should be mentioned. I used to cross dress regularly and jokingly call myself a trap. I would insist that being trans and being a trap were two completely different things. One day I was talking to a friend about shaving my legs and he asked me,”When are you gonna go on hormones?” I had no idea how to respond, I just said no. I had only ever mentioned that I was a trap, yet he had assumed I was trans. This was a big wake up call for me that the word trap was a lot more problematic than I initially thought. It’s blatantly obvious that the term trap is being used against trans people. And even if it isn’t being used with intended malice, it still causes confusion and misinformation.
The fact he lumped you in as a transgender just for crossdressing is significantly more problematic than the term is. People like that are ruining the cultural distinction that has been understood for years.
"Cultural distinction that has been understood for years" No, it hasn't. Despite assuredly existing for centuries, trans people weren't acknowledged as being different from crossdressers and transvestites until the late 20th century.
I was around on 4chan when the "trap question" first started becoming a comment discussion topic. It's really fucking strange to me how trap has become conflated with trans, it wasn't about trans to begin with. Whenever I start joking about "traps aren't gay" and someone comes at with talking about trans I'm always like "nigga what drugs are you on."
Again the problem is context, even if people were adapt different terminologies that would encompass more groups and allow for specificity, those terms can still be used in a derogatory manner. It's how words become slang in the first place. If a term can be used in a manner that it wasn't intended for, it will, even if ignorant instead of malicious in nature. "Memes" make this worse due to the nature of how they're made. It's a cycle you can't necessary break due to the nature of how different people respond to different words. Just like how words can be misused due to ignorance, words can be used maliciously. Which, again, is why it's more important to inform yourself than assume the context behind why someone is using it. Being careful of how you use certain terms is inherent in every aspect of conversation. It's why one doesn't simply start insulting another's reflexes in say a video game but this may be the case between a group of friends or family members who may be comfortable with deprecation between themselves and that's simply where the majority of the problems lie.
well, femboy is already widely used and has "boy" in the tite thus not indirectly hurting the wrong group, it also fanatically sounds a lot less harsh and cant really be used as a slur, if you take a look at every other nono words most of them sound terse and harsh but trying to turn "femboy" into a slur is a lot harder, the worst you can get is condescending and even thats not too easy
Yeah, I was pretty disappointed they didn't use that instead. But I guess most people just aren't aware of it. But I hope the translator learns this : )
@@somthingthatsveryforgettab385 You'd be surprised how transphobic the anime community is. Just read the comments for any post/video covering the recent Toei controversy.
I always thought “trap” was a term for crossdressers, and that everyone used for that purpose exclusively. It never even crossed my mind that it could refer to for trans people, trans people aren’t trying to trap, bait or trick people, they just exist.
You thought right. Pedantic Romantic is full of s*** Her sources are old & questionable, even if they were accurate the meaning of words change over time & the internet moves at warp speed, and she can't even pretend to be impartial on the subject. This video is an answer in search of a question.
it is a word for crossdressers, you're just trying to make a whole word literally everybody uses a slur, stop being blind behind your own arrogance and look at the true meaning of traps, they're crossdressers dude dont be brainwashed by stupid peple
I'm trans and I honestly didn't think I would see someone talk about the issue with traps and get more (and a lot) of like more than dislikes outside of Tumblr. You've just earned a new subscriber literally thank you so much for this
Salokin Yeah. It’s strange to think that some asshats are willing to ignore how Lily is the festering corpse of a pre-pubescent child to suspend their sexual gratification, but are immediately disgusted to learn that she’s trans.
Ngl, heard the controversy surrounding Lily and my thoughts on the anime went from "I should probably get around to watching this anime sometime in the near future because there's a fly ass rap battle in episode 2" to "I need to watch this anime right the FUCK now if it's pissing off all the weeby cucklefucks".
Ciswoman here. I stumbled onto this video randomly and ohhh my god, this is such a wonderfully concise analysis! I often see friends-of-friends using the term trap in online conversation and it's always sat poorly with me. I try to call it out because the trans women and enby folks I personally know really dislike it. I've always considered it a slur, regardless of whether the subject is an anime character or a real-life person. But it's great for my own education to see you break the term down like this, because while I fiercely want to protect my friends, I don't want to speak for them and have their voices be absent. TL;DR, next time I get into one of these discussions, I'm linking your video.
i really appreciate a pro-lgbt viewpoint in this midst of this hell scape that is anime youtube. so many people are either unwilling to express it knowing the comments it could draw, indifference to the issue, or are just flat out anti-lgbt. thank you for braving this shitstorm and know that it brightens the day of lgbt viewers like myself. peace!
MissaKinz or don’t give a shit most of use the word trap for fun.and will keep doing so everyone wants the same treatment as well right ? Then they can also deal with this the anime community is not just going to kill a meme because some people feel offended fuck that shit
nick de jong i couldn’t care less what language you choose to use. however, i’d rather not use words that directly harm trans people for some unfunny internet joke. but that’s just my personal preference
@@NoahWolfWiseKingWolf I honestly considered trap to be more of a joke word. As in straight guys falling for a "trap." However, some people are too easily offended nowadays. I am completely ok with transwomen. I _may_ even date one if he/she had a feminine enough appearance! It is not a slur in the slightest. .-.
@ボイス A. This entire comment section is a joke, and you should never take comment section seriously. Not to mention, you can't see humor/sarcasm through text. B. We are on the same page if you say a vast majority of the people don't use it as a slur. Most people I know goof off when saying it. C. This reply is over a year old. Why must you do this to me?
How I define "trap" is a CIS man dressing up as a femme person. Trans women are women, not traps. Same goes for Trans man and reverse-traps, they're different. So, please DO NOT calling Trans people "traps".
i've worked with a dude who claimed he was bisexual, but only because he'd "slept with some traps" so like... it's not a fun animu fan word about some silly fictional boys who like looking like fictional girls, it's utilized against girls in real life to claim they aren't actually girls, and that the gender other people think they are takes precedence over everything else about them - so basically ty for making this vid
Because, you can't claim that he didn't sleep with actual traps, if he indeed did sleep with actual traps, it could have been like an actual animu and he did sleep with boys that actually looked like girls, and besides "trap" isn't a slur, it really isn't
well yeah. but let's get to the normal use of the word trap. homosexual asian guys that pose as girls and go for a one night stand. and well. you fall into a trap. that's how I've seen it and heard it before 2004. and let me tell you fron personal experience, that is not a fun experience as a hetrosexual man. trap is not an otaku thing. but yeah. it's idiotic to call trans people traps.
I take no real issue with any of the arguments in this video. But I wanted to clarify something, 「男の娘」(the term mentioned in the video) is not the same as, 「男の子」while being said the same, "otokonoko." 「男の子」uses the kanji for 'man' and 'child' as it simply is the term for 'boy.' A male child without any fetishistic connotation. 「男の娘」once again uses the kanji for 'man' but now also uses the kanji for 'daughter' or 'young girl' in 子's stead, coupled with the の particle, 男 modifies 娘 which typically means "daughter" or "girl" "Otokonoko" is a term used to describe crossdressing men in a subculture. While in general Japanese culture it's used as a word for a young boy. I generally wouldn't really recommend people to just start using this as a 1-1 replacement of "trap"
This. The fetish term "otoko no ko" is a play on words based on a homophone pair - two words that sound the same but are written differently. This works in Japanese text (e.g. on Japanese online forums and porn sites), but not really in any other medium. I wouldn't recommend using it either.
As a bilingual person, I was very happy that you’d researched the terms more widespread among the Japanese community as better alternatives. For the longest time, I’d thought that “trap” was just a generalized term for Otokonoko and Josou alike simply because English has a tendency to either take one term and stretch it out among multiple synonyms or use one word to encompass a set of terms that have varying meanings across context. For example, in Japanese we use different terms to express the word “love” (愛、恋、好き) in varying degrees, but it’s hard to convey those different feelings when all you have is “like” and “love”. The nuances of each language have a tendency to become muddled when one is translated to the other, and unfortunately the word “trap” is one of those cases where English speakers take multiple subjects and generalize them under one umbrella term that somehow manages to degrade the people its referring to at the same time. The word “okama” comes to mind as another word the Japanese LGBT community uses to refer to cis men who are comfortable in their biology but would dress in ways that are more traditionally feminine simply because they like it, and I thought trap was just the English equivalent of that term. Unfortunately the more I come to understand the history behind it, the more I realize that it is more commonly used as a way to infantilize the complexities of the trans community. I think western anime fans are a bit hypocritical when they put all their efforts into memorizing the different “dere” types, but can’t be bothered to put even a modicum of research into how we refer to the LGBT community in our language and instead simplify and dismiss it.
@@fightingmedialounge519 It’s not that outlandish. Japanese borrows a lot of foreign, especially English words. They have like a whole alphabet just for foreign words.
i heard about that. it gets heated debates, like if Axel was romanticly in love with Roxas or not. and the Kaworu wanted Shinji to be his boyfriend" thing
Ngl, I was scared to watch this video for a while, but it turned out to be very good and informative. I'm tired of people denying Lily's transness when she literally died of dysphoria. I hope more people realize how bad that word can be. Thanks for trying to educate people.
What? It's literally stated in the very same episode that the reason Lily died is because of a shock after a long time of overwork/stress. I've seen nothing in the show that indicates Lily is trans.
4channers are the ones who made that term of trap, and it had nothing to do with transgender people. It's about boys who look good enough to pass as girls, unintentionally in most cases like Hideyoshi or Saika.
I'm genuinely kinda annoyed that this got age restricted because it's quite informative... But I guess when you decide to refer to addressing a group as "jerking them off" it's only fair XD
Ever since I started to see people thanking Natalie (A.K.A Contrapoints) for helping them stop being shitty with her videos, I started to hope for a video like this. Hopefully it will help some people as well. Thanks a lot, _person I should definetely know the name since I've been watching you for some months_
Felix isnt trans though? I need proof, give me an episode timestamp or web novel chapter page and line. Don't spread misinformation about anime characters. It is a male, him not her. Ferris and Felix are used interchangeably he doesn't prefer one over the other, I believe it was Crusch who told Felix feminine attire fits him and since he greatly respect Crusch he goes along with it. He sometimes acts feminine around Subaru to troll him.
I mean, the anime community rarely uses any proper Japanese. Weeaboo/Best girl has next to nothing to do with Japanese, while yuri, yaoi, waifu, hentai, etc. are more like bastardizations of their Japanese counterparts rather than Japanese words.
I think generally people are aiming at the general feeling of legitimacy with use of this sort of 'Japanese' (would pseudo-Japanese be more appropriate). It's just that a lot of fans starting out don't know much about Japan but want to feel connected with their new favourite shows and the culture that created them. So they borrow words, or more probably copy other anime fans online, without really fully appreciating how different conceptual frameworks change the meanings of certain terms (and sometimes just not understanding the term) and then they use it instead of the English wherever possible as a sort of signifier for legitimacy.
@@yuirick Yeah, this is definitely true. It's why I dislike BL manga being called "yaoi" because with most people automatically think of doujins containing explicit sex instead of just romance between boys. I guess it's a problem related to mistranslations regarding language and subcultures more than anything else.
@Caio Coelho I dunno, I don't really see a point in the OP's comment to be honest. It seems to imply that people go out of their way to use this term, when in reality it's like, four letters on a keyboard. Not exactly a marathon, you know?
@@WalkingGirlKoi on the other hand, i've understood things like shounen-ai as two guys that hold hands and kiss romantically, while yaoi is guy on guy xxx. or am i using them right?
Honestly, I had no idea that the term trap was ever used to refer to trans women. The thought was so offensive to even _me_ that It just never crossed my mind. In my head, the definition of "trap" was a person who _identifies as male_ dressing as a female. Trans women aren't trying to _trap_ anyone or trick them into doing _anything._ Trans women are just... _women._
Honestly I’m glad to know this kind of shit. I have a friend who’s undergoing the transition from male to female, and she has a lot of issues with terms like this. I’m glad I know why now.
Help your friend out. Society is at fault not your friend. What society is now teaching about gender is destructive you have to help those who are in need of it.
@@halinaqi2194 Then, do your own research? Is it society's fault for teaching something you disagree with, or is it your own fault for not doing your own research out of fear of disagreeing with the popular opinion? I don't agree with trans definitions, mindsets, etc., but guess what I? I have the same right as any person who wants to do undergo such a change to not be labeled with hate speech such as "transphobic." Freedom of speech, etc. does not apply to just one group, it applies to all of us. I agree to treat each other respectfully, but if trans people don't want to be pressured into my opinion, they shouldn't pressure me into theirs. We all have our reasons, and we shouldn't just be judged so superficially by people who don't know anything about us. I have some very honest questions to ask, but no one wants to answer without calling me bigoted or transphobic or something.
@@TayoEXE perfect response I was baiting for someone who shares a similar opinion to mine. It was weird to see every one supporting a different idea than mine. Besides my statement was very vague on purpose. You are right.
1) my girlfriend is trans, I'm excited to send this to her. It can help give arguments for people who insist on using it. 2) that anime playing in the background was adorable, I gotta watch it
I have friends and family who are trans, so I was a bit worried what I would see when I clicked, but I really liked this video! Then, out of sheer morbid curiosity, and against my better judgment, I found myself almost involuntarily scrolling down to look at comments, fully expecting a toxic, scummy hatestorm. I was so pleasantly surprised! I didn't scroll down _far,_ as I do not want to push my luck, but I did scroll down for a whole visible page (about 1,000 pixels), and everything I saw was pretty reasonable, even if they didn't all agree, and that makes me very happy to see! Thanks, everyone! :D
I don't think it's that nice. Even if you don't like the other side, I think people that dislike this video should also be heard. Also i'm neutral on this.
@@lajenehuen260 Here's an idea if you want to be heard: make a response video yourself! You're not entitled to someone's private platform. Get your fucking own.
@Venus Well no. If you're basing it on his spirit origin, Astolfo's spirit origin lists as genderless but that doesn't mean he's non-binary. Spirit origin gender does not equate to gender identity. Artemis, who is in every way a female has her spirit origin listed as male because she hijacked Orion's spirit origin. Avenger Nobunaga's gender is listed as other despite her being female and other class forms being explicitly female. Then there's Romulus-Quirinus whose gender is listed as unknown when his berserker class is explicitly male.
Thank you for covering this! Being transgender myself (FTM) it’s hard to deal with people being judgmental and using such slurs. I feel like a lot of people don’t understand what the term means and jump to conclusions on people because of how they look, sound, and act. It’s not funny to call someone a ‘trap’, it’s rude and disrespectful. I am not a ‘trap’, I am a person that has feelings and emotions. I just want to be happy and have a good life. Thank you.
@@invertin Is not. I watched that episode. Lily died because of a shock after an extended period of stress/overwork. Lily never refers to himself as a woman either, so I have no reason to believe Lily is trans.
@@lucasmillerthelewderofloli9327 She uses feminine pronouns, feminine honorifics, a feminine name, gets mad when referred to as her old masculine name which she talks about in specifically trans language while talking to someone who is wearing the fucking trans flag on her shorts. Did you watch the video? Where Pedantic also helpfully brought up all the times the creators said she was canonically trans?
@@invertin "She uses feminine pronouns," When? 99% of the time Lily refers to himself in third person. Give me a scene where Lily uses atakushi/atashi ( because every other pronoun is either gender neutral or masculine ) "feminine honorifics" -chan can also be used to denote cuteness, which we've been shown to be one of Lily's goals. ( Being cute ) "a feminine name" Are you seriously arguing this? Do you know anything about idol industry? Idols can't have boyfriends, heck, associating with any guys is bad for an idol, since they have to stay "pure" for their fans. Now imagine what scandal it would cause if suddenly one of the girls is a guy. "gets mad when referred to as her old masculine name which she talks about in specifically trans language" Lily hated the name because it very masculine. There is nothing implying it's because Lily identifies as a girl. Even the specific phrasing Lily used in the "old name' scene is vague at best. Also, there is no such thing as trans language. "while talking to someone who is wearing the fucking trans flag on her shorts." This is also reaching. It is definitely similar to one of the flags I've seen in google images, but if what was truly the case, then why the stripes are IN THE WRONG ORDER and missing one to boot? The video itself is meh, as it fails to showcase 2-3 important scenes from Lily's episode, like his death and his longtime blatant overworking and stress. It could've been made more concise and shorter as well. Also, the whole title of the video is a clickbait that tries to paint trap as a slur, which is frankly stupid. Instead of focusing on the issue ( like transphobic people ) you try to blame the word itself. It's equally as ridiculous as blaming the gun instead of the shooter for killing someone. Traps do exist. They existed for years. Trap is not a transphobic slur, but can be used by transphobic people. Are we clear on that? "creators said she was canonically trans" I saw the couple tweets which to refer to Lily as she, and I'm not buying them. First of all, establishing Lily's gender could be made simple by a single line "I'm a girl" in the show. No such thing happens. Weird phrasing, shorts that resemble lgbt flag ( resemble, not are ) are not a proof, more like a hint. In fact, why I think this happened is because the whole thing blew up, and the team behind the official twitter account decided to get some "bonus points" by rolling with it. However, if there is someone who was one of the big guns behind the production ( Like Munehisa Sakai or Shigeru Murakoshi ) who explicitly says Lily is trans, I will concede then. Until then, I have no reason to.
The word "trap" turns an individual into an object, and from what I've seen in real life people use the term to essentially blame someone who is trans (or even someone who doesn't conform to the appearance of a man/woman) for them being attractive. A girl in my school was asked "what she was" and she felt afraid to answer because she was a relatively new student and was going through a tough time not understanding what gender she was. The same guy said he didn't want to be "falling into a trap" so demanded an answer. The thing is, she was biologically female, too, and she still is that way now. That guy was accusing a girl of being a trap just because she didn't look all that feminine.
@@diegobrando6115 ...Danny was talking about a girl they know, not a character. The entire comment is about people using the term in real life about other people. Your reply makes no sense.
@@nonaide I think they're a troll, I hope they're a troll, I really really hope so because if not, god people are not very intelligent (I saw some of their "arguments" in other comments and, woof)
@@nonaide She should just answer with the sex given in her ID, but that's a case of someone using a term out of context and the community of said term now has to take the blame for an individual who probably isn't even part of the community.
@@gamzee3610 So being unintelligent is now wrong? I thought the trans community was about accepting people for what they are. On a serious note they might not be good at convenying their points due to being emotionally charged, I agree with their main idea, "It's just a word, a niche word why should it apply to you". Yes it has been used in real life, but the actions of an individual doesn't reflect the ideas of a community, if anything the word "trans" should not be used as it incites violence from transphobe? That's the same argument from this video about the word trap, you can agree with me if I said more people have been the target of violence and bigotry due to the word "trans" far more than the word "trap".
@@Hhhh22222-w It's not about blaming the community, it's about understanding how the word affects people. The video is encouraging the community to be mindful and speak responsibly. The fact is, the word is far more widespread than just the anime community. It is commonly used about trans women. It perpetuates a widespread view that trans women are imposters--that they're actually men trying to deceive straight men and turn them gay. That view is at the heart of much of the violence and brutality that trans women are subjected to. The concept of men deceiving other men and turning them gay is fundamental to the word trap. It's inextricable. The word trans is completely different. It's a neutral term. It is not a term that's damaging or directly tied to violence or degradation.
It took me around 20 seconds after the zooming started at 1:46 to realise what you were zooming into. Then recognising the flag hit me like "OOOOooooohhhhhh"
great video even two years later. the fact that people would even think to call trans women or men traps is disgusting. i wish more people were aware of the points made in this video
@Tsuyu I just tried watching it and had to bail out. The terrible logic they used, going as far as to blame the trans women for their own deaths for 'lying' to the male lovers is pretty basic transphobia. Not seeing trans women as women is a pretty key component of transphobia and not acknowledging that destroys any credibility they might may have had on the subject. I'm not going to listen to an argument from a transphobe like Dimitri.
@Tsuyu I view this as the 'what was she wearing when she got raped' argument. The concept that it matters is silly in and of itself. Dimitri confuses biological sex and gender during their argument by saying that the trans woman who was killed tricked the killer into thinking they were a girl, which they didn't because that's how they identify. Dimitri then calls this dipping themselves in steak sauce and jumping into the lion's den which clearly isn't the case because they only presented and viewed themselves as female. This leads me to think they are transphobic to some degree. Having a preference of genitals is probably fine but I think there may be some underlying transphobia/homophobia as to why. This is admittedly outside my wheelhouse though but unless the killer had explicitly asked what their genitals were and they said the opposite of what they had, they did not lie. They presented and addressed themselves as female which is not a lie as biological sex does not define womanhood. On your request I finished the video now. They use Blaire White as a source who is also decently transphobic which raises a lot of questions. Dimitri then tries to strawman the tr*p argument that the issue is societal rather memes ignoring that THIS IS THE ARGUMENT ANYONE ON THE SUBJECT WITH A BRAIN IS MAKING. That not viewing trans people as the gender they identify as is the issue. Just saying they would use a different slur isn't the heart of the issue, it's that a slur would be used at all regardless of what the slur is. Their entire video is based on this misunderstanding making almost everything said within meaningless. You're right on the trans person and Japanese speakers though. These people raised good points that the terms used in Pedantic's video may not be the best. This is the one thing I think Dimitry got right (even if it wasn't Dimitry getting it but whatever I'll give it to them).
@Tsuyu So I think the issue is a misunderstanding of a broader scope. You saying ""what she was wearing" does not really apply here, whereas the blame goes to clothing, rather than lying about your biological sex" is missing the point. That being, we're placing the blame on the wrong person. The blame should NOT be placed on the clothing nor biological sex. The issues are rape and murder respectively. Using clothing or biological sex is just justification for it which is why I used the example. Generally people making these arguments are sexist or transphobic (usually both). Lying by omission is a real thing but I don't think it applies here as by all means the victim was female. I think there's a disconnect between us because I don't think the genitalia should matter. Sure if the partner has a preference they can simply stop when they find out, and I'd even agree that they probably should have been informed when things got physical but there's no justification of murder. Dimitri even seems to acknowledge this and then hand waves it with the lion's den comment. I view this as a general transphobic talking point. Blaire White is a transphobic trans person who peddles misinformation constantly about trans people. The "You're only really trans if you pass" type. I've heard her called an Uncle Tom of trans people which I believe is apt. I think we're in agreement on the societal bit and context will always matter to some degree. For example I'd never use the N-word myself (I'm white) but if a black person were to say it as a greeting to another black person I wouldn't judge it as anything. However, like the N-word, tr*p is generally perceived as a slur and in a lot of contexts where it can be used, it is one. Basically, by your definition nothing is a slur because there can always be contexts where the word is allowed. While the issue is societal, understanding that certain words can hurt people and to avoid saying them is probably good imo. I think the paragraph above explains why I said "that a slur is used at all" but I'll make a more concise point. Don't use slurs because it can be hurtful. The issue with the term tr*p is that it does imply trickery and trapping where cross dresser and trans person does not have those connotations (granted major transphobes do see people who are trans as liars but I don't think you or Dimitri fall into that category). In a similar sense, homosexual man and f*ggot may mean the same thing, but they have different connotations. I'm sure there's positive contexts in which tr*p can be used but as a cis male myself I don't feel I can use the word without it being derogatory. Same as the N-word and f*ggot. I think what the term tr*p has become derogatory in a similar fashion as those where I think we just have to listen to what the trans and cross dressing communities wants to be called which will usually just come down to pronouns. I find both groups also just generally dislike the word tr*p being used as well with some exceptions obviously. At best I can say that it's generally a slur but there's occasional exceptions which is true for literally any word that's a slur so why make the point at all?
@Tsuyu If people in the community like using it I think that's fine. Same with gay people using the term f*g. I disagree that tr*p has a positive connotation however. It's used to describe someone tricking another person which to me shows negative connotation. We agree this shouldn't be used for trans people which is good but in my experience it's generally used for trans people as noted by the Daryl Duke comment. I've never met a cross dresser with the intention of tricking people either which makes me think the word is entirely negative. I think Dimitri's comment of the lion's den is definitely placing some blame on the victim. Just like in your examples that had they eaten in a public restaurant rather then his place is not a justification. Safer sure but the real issue is society's transphobia/homophobia/sexism and not analyzing it from that angle rather and instead saying she was essentially jumping into the lion's den is, to me, victim blaming. I've mostly seen it used derogatorily so we have different experiences there. The cross dressers I do know dislike the term and trans people I know hate it and view it as a slur so I don't use it. I think it has too many negative connotations for general usage.
@Tsuyu So if you know that the term tr*p doesn't generally have positive connotations, why use it as a descriptor or defend it's usage from people outside the community? I get that it can be used in proper ways but that's generally not how it's used in my experience. I think a big difference is my background is anime forums and it seems yours is cross dressing so we're surrounded by very different people. The reason I figured you thought differently to the connotations is that you seemed to be contrasting tr*p with the n-word. I'll use a direct quote from you, "The thing with the n word is that it never really had a positive usage in the first place, it was acknowledged as a slur before being used positively because it was reclaimed" Sorry if I misinterpreted but I hope it makes some sense where I'm coming from since I think tr*p originated in a similar fashion though not nearly as extreme since it was about anime characters vs real people. The issue is the thought process of transphobes more than anything imo. In both instances of murder there was a gay panic and line of dialogue that is undeniably similar how most people use the word tr*p. If we got rid of the n-word or f*g nothing really changes either but that doesn't mean we should use them freely without context. Transphobes, racists, and homophobes will just use a new slur and I understand this. However, for people who do not want to be transphobic, racist, or homophobic they should educate themselves on what is and is not perceived as a slur and try not to use it and correct people when they use it as well in improper contexts. This is ultimately what I want to advocate for. An understanding of the negative connotations of the word and ask people not to use it unless there's a very distinct purpose as it is generally hurtful though some contexts allow it. I think it's more the lion's den comment for me that set me off. If Dimitri just said something like "for my trans viewers, please let people know of your genitals before sleeping with someone. I know the issue is transphobia that's causing these deaths but at least this lowers the odds of you being hurt." or something of that nature I'd have no issues. The framing used made it seem like they were equally culpable which pissed me off. Glad to know there isn't real beef between the creators.
@Deez Nutz You're not a trap, and people here above me are the problem. I firmly believe trap is not a slur by default, it doesnt refer to transgender people at all in my mind - it's a crossdressing term. Nothing to do with gender identity, seeing as trans people aren't trying to "deceive" anyone. People that use it as a pejorative do a perfectly usable word a disservice.
This actually clears a ton of things up! When I first saw that people thought the word "trans" was a slur, I thought it was ridiculous, mainly because i had never seen it been used on an actual trans person and I never so much as thought to use it as a slur myself. If I learned a character actually identified as female I'd simply stop calling them a trap because it didn't fit into my personal definition of what a trap was (imagine my shock when I heard someone refer to a trans-woman as a trap for the first time). I'll definitely avoid using the word trap from now on! (also thanks for giving an alternative, less offensive word)
@@fightingmedialounge519 Because even if the word means one thing, people may associate it with something hurtful and get offended and I want to avoid that. Its mostly about the connotation of the word (rather than its denotation). Also I could end up using the word on someone who doesn't fit the actual definition without knowing, which can be hurtful.
VanillaLatte. Than that's their problem not yours. If spoon suddenly became a slur against the mentally challenged, would. you cut that that word out of your vocabulary entirely, or would you just respect their boundaries by not saying it in front of them.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Thats a bit of a hard one, I think because I use the word spoon so much I would just stick to not saying it in front of them, and not using it to refer to them. I feel like its slightly different because I barely use the word trap in the first place, so its much easier for me to just stop saying it. It isn't my problem but I personally think causing other people problems isn't the best thing to do.
saw the thumbnail and assumed this would be a disgusting mess, watched the intro and was so relieved. i think you can save the anime community. thank you kanye, very cool.
Thanks so much for making this video! I've only been using 'trap' for anime characters and my cosplays (transmasculine person that often cosplays girl characters), but I'm now going to use 'jousou'!
ngl i thought this was kinda stupid at first but now that i've watched the whole video i see that you make some pretty compelling arguments that have made me reconsider
I knew that 'Trap' was a shitty term but I was unaware of the history of it. It was pretty interesting to learn about it. I really enjoyed the part where you were talking about the difference between how words are used vs what their literal definition is. It really pins down the issue about the term in a concise way.
I still wholly dislike the idea of people not wanting me to use a word in it's right context, just because some moron I have nothing to do with tried using that as an insult against them. Go educate the idiots misusing the words, instead of trying to control what sensible people like me are saying!
OzixiThrill A words meaning is determined by how people use it. That’s just how language works. So when a majority of people who use that term use it in a derogatory way, guess what? That term is derogatory!
@@tylerburney8576 Never used it in a derogatory fashion. Never seen it used that way either. I've only ever seen people complain that it's used in a derogatory fashion without them backing it up, actually. Are we sure this isn't an outrage by a small subset of people on behalf of people that don't even care?
Was nervous to look at the comments despite the like to dislike ratio. I'm so relieved to see so many accepting and understanding responses. I've had so much anxiety lately due to being outed at my work. It's died down a little bit but in the beginning I had so many co-workers asking extremely inappropriate questions even sometimes in front of other coworkers. I've had some coworkers I barely know want me to meet their friends most likely because they want to show them a trans person as if I'm some kind of circus sideshow or something. I'm a man and I've always viewed myself that way, yet upon finding out my trans status, a co worker once said to me, "Oh, so technically you're a lesbian." When I try informing people about etiquette on this subject, not one of them ever tried to listen. They asked only what they wanted to know and then would tune out the rest of my words. I'm lucky I haven't had any violence directed toward me. Sorry, I just needed to let off some steam :^( Thanks for this awesome video! :^D
Mikkel D. People are gonna ask those invasive questions no matter what happens even if you told them instead of being outed you had to have realized that right?
@@ethanparis4989 Of course I realize that. That's specifically the reason why I (and others) don't want to be outed at work. Edit: Oops, I meant to say outed in general. Not just at work.
love the zoom in on sakura's pyjama pants with the trans pride flag colours on it rly informative video! i'm nonbinary and all of my trans/ nb friends think trap is definitely a slur and hurtful.
I’m really glad he addressed the topic too. This kind of subculture has been shitty for quite a while. (Also don’t check your replies, yeesh I see who’s doing the dislikes)
@@E.Hizeman Yeah I’ve talked with Tsuyu and they are crazy, I’ve had to delete my comment 4 or 3 times because of them they won’t leave me alone, it’s best not to talk to them and report them if they start harassing you.
I came in thinking trap was okay as long as you didn't mean it negatively or whatever but you legitimately changed my mind. A very well put together video, thanks for making it!
"Trap" is more of a compliment than an insult. Think about it. If you are convincing enough to pass for a cute girl, then I don't know why it would be an insult to be called as so by a guy would never fuck a dude but would hypothetically fuck a trap.
@@Poodleinacan Trans girls are not striving for your "I-would-fuck-you" approval stamp. Believe it or not, your opinion about their fuckability is for them about as relevant as my 5th toe. Their world doesn't center around you, believe it or not.
@@laras658 they trying to present as female (or male for the other side of trans). This means that if you are attracted to females and you find them attractive they are succeeding. Besides that being used as an insult doesnt take priority over all other uses, this isnt to say it cant be an insult but counter examples would disprove it being exclusively insulting
@@laras658 though i suppose that still leaves it about as "transphobic" as believing their are 2 genders or that you cant be the wrong one. Not hating people who claim such, just disagreeing
@@2987ms It's a foreign concept, made into English word, it's not supposed to be negative, but in the pov of a straight male it would be negative, which is fair
I always thought of a trap being a character (specifically anime) of either traditional gender specifically trying to trick people about their bits as a somewhat cutting joke towards people who be uncomfortable with even the idea of being attracted to an image of a person with the "wong" bits. I have not been engaging with the anime or internet community much in the last 5 years or so and i don't really interact with anyone in real life much these past years its just not something that was ever brought up. With those points being made i never even considered how it would be insulting or used by the general public and while it is not a term i would have occasion to use in any event ill be sure to avoid it. I have no problem with people being offended by viewpoints that dont match their own, especially when those views are based in ignorance and fear, but calling people names usually serves no real purpose except to try and hurt. thanks for the video, happy to have found your channel even if it is not my usual viewing content.
@@diegobrando6115 I misread it the first time too. It could have been worded better, but they addressed that there's a spectrum that ranges from reasonable people who disagree for various reasons and people who will dismiss every argument whether it's sensible or not.
@@diegobrando6115 You're own words: "who honestly cares about the trans community because I sure as hell don’t". You don't "disagree with someone" you actively try to be unempathetic to them and their problems. Stop arguing in bad faith.
