+LEDN42 She was the one about whom Maester Targaryan was speaking when he talked about the women he loved, and wanted to marry, but their families had other plans, just so that you all know and remember...
I don't think he mentioned any woman by name, he just said that as a Targaryen prince he had many women throwing themselves at him. What we do know, because of the books, is that Olenna was engaged to Daeron, maester Aemon's nephew, but he was gay and refused to marry her, or any other woman. In the books and the show she claims it was her who put an end to the engagement, but it seems it was the other way around.
She did convince her sister's fiancee to marry her instead of her sister just by going to his bedroom and having sex with him. Must have been some night for him to change his mind immediately by the next day.
Adam K There are some theories that say Tywin actually had a hand in Joffrey's death, and I wouldn't put it past Tywin. He's smart, Joffrey was uncontrollable, Tommen is a much better puppet king.
GeneTheDude Yep. Actually the convo she had with Tywin where she had to eat crow on both her demands.........it is not out of the question where if she submitted to Loras and Cersei etc if she got Tywin to agree to off Joffrey. He knew as well that he was a shit King who didnt listen, and with all his terrible impulse choices, they could be at war at any time. I wouldnt put it past Tywin to agree/offer to put Tommen in instead, knowing Olenna was also real uneasy with knowing Joffrey was sick in the head. Also with how he didnt even question the Tyrells and went so hard after Tyrion, Tywin is no dummy I dont think he could just be fooled so easy like that
I don't get this complaint. The white ravens flew at the end of season 6, with snow on the ground at Winterfell. There is snow on the ground in Kings Landing in the last episode. That is a lot longer than two seconds.
@@SapphireSolstice67 probably true, he didn’t know about it though. Would have been interesting to have seen a discussion about the entertainment schedule for the wedding. Just as another clue for Tyrion that he was framed.
Not sure she meant to frame Tyrion specifically. No one had any way of knowing what Weasel Boy was going to do, and Tyrion was in the wrong place at the wrong time. God, I wish they could have kept Olena around though.
@@abbyiswatching2046 Yeah I think they viewed Tyrion's altercation with Joffrey at the wedding combined with Cersei's delusional obsession that Tyrion was always working against her as merely an opportunity they could capitalise on. I don't think there was even a plan to frame anyone initially. They worked it into their plan because a candidate presented itself and otherwise the assassins would have been unknown. They would have just had to flimsily blame it on Stannis, which would be doubted by many given he was so far away and had so little strength and support left. I think Tywin and Tyrion would have called bullshit on that pretty quickly. They wouldn't have ruled Stannis out, but they would have taken into account someone else might have been behind it. Another fortunate thing for the Tyrells was that having Tyrion be the scapegoat was perfect because it was the one person that might blind Tywin through hatred into condemning the wrong man and thinking the matter settled.
That's not really a proper foreshadow imo :/ No one would have guessed that it was Lady Olenna behind it all just because she told Tyrion she was helping to plan it. After all, she is the grandmother of the bride and grandmothers do usually help out with weddings.
you could suspect olenna. I mean she is basically the mastermind of house Tyrell and highly cunning to the point where she's considered a girl tywin. She hates the lannisters. And she cares deeply for Margaery. even though she knows that Margaery could easily manipulate Joffrey, he could have one bad day and then take it out on her and break her in. If Joffrey dies, a manipulatable boy would be king, the Tyrells could get more power (I mean look at how easy it was for the high sparrow to manipulate tommen), Margaery would be queen, the alliance would continue and Margaery wouldn't have to worry.
How is this not a foreshadow? Olenna orchestrated the whole murder of Joffrey. It is only natural that she was the one who planned the wedding, since thus she would know how to kill him best. Those two things just go hand in hand.
watch the entirety of the series after a new season finishes airing and come back. but tommen was easily to manipulate because: 1. he was a second son, so they were given less education than the heir. he was also mostly ignored, so he probably got a worse education. 2. he had lost his sister, 'father', grandfather, etc and usually when one deals with grief, religion comes quick. 3. cersei had a hand in it, since she probably made him pliable since he was an infant. if you read affc specifically the chapter where tommen yells at her, you'll see what I mean.
@@wafflingmean4477 Tyrion had a line where Cersei starts to cry, 'He could have been less suprised if Aegon the Conqueror rode in on a dragon, juggling apples with his hands than seeing Cersei cry' I usually like Jaime's sense of humour better than all, in the books. He's really like Tyrion, just was so good a swordsman, he never needed to beat someone with words. He always thought stuff like 'Tyrion would have find something to convince these fools, but all I can think of is to get a hold of a sword and kill them all'
@@KingBobXVI Especially given Tyrion's inspiring speech to Jon about wearing his weakness like an armor. Tyrion has certainly learned to be entirely unphased by dwarf jokes.
@@KingBobXVI specially when they insult your strong qualities, Olenna just destroyed him at the intelectual level, witch is Tyrion's strongest atribute
@@guifdcanalli so right. he spent a lifetime hearing stupid ass dwarf jokes, they're nothing to him. the people who throw those kind of insults tend to be easy marks, tyrion would run verbal circles around them and leave them stuttering. he truly does wear the dwarf part like armor. but when olenna makes him feel dumb and slow, he's so flustered
Lady Olenna is clearly more than just the matriarch of House Tyrell. She knew every single figure for everything they've given to the Crown - soldiers, food, drink. She keeps tabs on everything that the Tyrells do. She's the reason they're so successful.
+jontyriondaenerys of course, you think the fool mace tyrell knows anything lol. She's been running house tyrell ever since she married into the tyrell family, and she has been grooming margaery for the role ever since she was born. id say house tyrell is the only westeros house besides dorne that actually allows its women to be given real power (i'd also mention lysa arryn but i think the vale bannermen did most of the work of managing the vale)
Havent read the novels, so i am unsure if Lady Olenna has much of a backstory or not. But it's hard to imagine her being 'allowed' or 'given' power, more likely that she had the inner strength and cunning to seize and then maintain it. Which is remarkable, considering that in this timeframe (fictional as it may be) a noblewoman's education probably consisted of things like singing, dancing, and sewing.
It's like in the books when someone calls Jamie a coward and for a moment he's more confused than insulted (if I remember right it was Brienne after he lost his hand). He's been given pretty much every insult under the sun for breaking his holy oath and betraying his king but the one thing people never called him was a coward given by how skilfully and bravely he fought. Even one of Robb Stark's men (who all hated the Kingslayer with a passion) commented on how one could not fault Jamie for his bravery.
Yolo Swaggins Yh so? People can Tywin is a dangerous person. Tyrion comes across as a drunken whore monger which causes people to let their guard down.
HolyknightVader999 That and Tyrion respects very intelligent people. With that and Olenna being the leading lady of a house and a wise elder, Tyrion wanted to play his cards right.
I love how she plays the part of the irascible old crone forgetful about the war, more concerned about her slow bowels than political matters, just long enough to lull him into confidence and then pull the rug from under him and show the Coin Master who's boss. Tyrion might enjoy the Game, but Olenna has played it for decades. A great character played by a great actress.
FangBanger Tyrion was much cleverer and kept his mouth shut knowing he was going to get what he wanted. He needed a favour and he knew insulting her wasn't going to work.
@@jonathanxavier2026 Yeah I think as Hand of the King with a more equal position and maybe if the Lannisters didn't depend on the Tyrells so much at this point he'd have been far more witty. He was keeping quiet because if he offended her she might say no and the Lannisters would be losing a lot of money and the Crown would be in far more debt. Even so, I think she roasted him far more than he expected.
@@jonathanxavier2026 Its also de to fact Tyrells can still be a political enemy, and since this is first time him meeting her, giving your enemy anything more than you need to is foolish and arsenal to their ammo, not to mention, Tyrion actually was taken aback by how well she kept tracks of tyrell's contribution to the war, and he still needed favours.
@@sirocco2810 Its same as Jamie being called a coward it had him "???" Its just one of those things that makes NO sense, it literally goes against their being, rather than feeling insulted, its one of those things you feel like "is this person serious and stupid or just seriously stupid?"
Olenna knows no matter what the wedding must go on or else the planned assassination of Joffrey would be ruined. She cant act too keen to pay the 50% or else it would be obvious she was up to something, instead she plays around with Tyrion so easily that he wouldnt suspect her when the day arrived Joffrey was killed.
@@fernandostephen2449 Uh she doesn't want to have grand daughter married to a complete psychopath? The next in line was Tommen and we saw how that shit went down lol
@@subutaynoyan5372 How did the wine get poisoned at the center table (Margery and Jofferey's), if I can ask? I did not see Olenna coming near the bride and groom with hidden vile...and she sat at the side table all the time.
After Olenna thoroughly chews him out, Tyrion's face can only be described as: "Usually *I'm* the one doing the rebuking, and this old woman has my number in verbal combat. So *that's* what that feels like." Props to Diana Rigg acting opposite to Peter Dinklage.
***** That's because she just keeps on yapping and never shuts up to allow for any responses! Besides, Tyrion was in no place to insult her as he was the guy begging for money.
mattaddison19 She did let him speak at the start and then went on to destroy him completely. But Oberyn also burned Tyrion. Olenna is not the only one ..
If they were both free to say whatever it would have likely been more equal but given how the Lannisters need the Tyrell's and the Tyrell's don't need the Lannisters he had to be careful not to insult.
yep it's interesting how she keeps the upper hand in conversations. Even while actually conceding a huge amount of money she manages to make it happen on her own terms and Tyrion is left feeling like he was just at the mercy of a higher power.
If I was Tyrion, I'd take that as a compliment. Being called every foul thing under the sun , and one prison calls him quiet/boring and sees and openly acknowledges the abuse he goes through.
"The People are hungry for more than just food, they crave distractions, and if we don't provide them they'll provide their own, and their distractions are likely to end with us being torn to pieces" This single statement pretty much sums up the way in which all society's maintain their established orders.
@Quetzalcoatl Well yeah cause in feudal society when the peasantry got uppity you just rode them down with your knights. Was basically like a bunch of people with sticks trying to fight tanks
@@ProjectEkerTest33 Also, the common people that time didn't have the level of entertainment as we do now. Less entertainment = fewer tastes and knowledge of the world = fewer distractions. Everything changed after scientific revolution.
Xander Alex the next book is probably going to be the best. I doubt Martin would do the mostakes Dumb and Dumber made. The guy is very perfectionist and don't like to make things that don't go well, he likes to build the story so well closed that you can see that even the Minor detail is something important.
The Second Olenna heard Tyrion send for her, she knew exactly what it was about, and decided right then and there that House Tyrell would help burden the expenses. She didn't climb up all those steps to iron out the details, she climbed up all those steps to verbally abuse Tyrion. And that's exactly what's to love about the Queen of Thorns.
I think part of the decision to help pay for the wedding was the fact she knew she would be murdering the king at that wedding. The fact she is paying 50% for the wedding makes House Tyrell seem innocent in the ensuing murder of the King. It’s also a marketing move because since the king will die there, EVERYONE will be talking about the wedding and the fact house Tyrell paid half will be on everyone’s tongues
He didn't "win" anything. It was an argument she didn't care about--she had already decided what to do before he raised the question. She just enjoys toying with him.
She seems like the kind of woman who enjoys an intelligent or debauched conversation. And Tyrion qualifies for both categories. I sooooo wish there was more interaction between these two. I love how Tyrion's face say "Did I just get royally served by an old granny?" He's the kind of man who can laugh about it later.
Crown... 1) owes a tremendous amount of cash to Braavos (even worse now they found someone else) 2) owe millions of bushels of grain and countless livestock to the Reach, practically leeching from the Reach as a parasite 3) add all war expenses incurred in during the War of the Five Kings 4) add 6 million to the debt (Petyr Baelish in season 1) 5) add all that interest ...I wonder what is the stress level for Master of Coins
+Tianming Zhao 3 million of the 6 million at the start to Tywin Lannister (plus 100,000 for the hands tournament), which he refuses to let the crown forget.
Ofcourse, white walkers do not spend money nor do they steal money, they are financial neutral so they are no risk for oeconomy - at least thats what a banker would say. So you could say the whites are a friend to the bank
If you're not Littlefinger (who was probably throwing parties for himself over it) I imagine you're contemplating how you're supposed to avoid being executed or sent to the Night's Watch. So pretty damn high.
@@Killzoneguy117 I think that two major effects will happen to Westeros at the end of the series. The first is King's Landing will be levelled by the hidden caches of wildfire, and the Iron Throne destroyed. The Iron Throne was literally the symbol of Aegon Conquering Westeros. In time, it was so legendary that it is its own legitimising force for a ruler. Whoever sits the Iron Throne is king. It is the very symbol of the realm itself, and the only thing that allows non Targaryen rulers like Robert, Joffrey and Tommen to hold the crown. Without it, and without Targaryens, there is no legitimate ruler for all of Westeros. Combine that with the entire wealth of the 'Crown' completely collapsing due to massive debt, and no royalist force can actually exert any power over the great houses of Westeros. The combination of these two things I think will be the realm splinters into many kingdoms once again.
I love how shocked Tyrion is that Olynna actually agreed pay for half the expenses. He's like "damn that's the first thing that was ever accomplished without violence in the history of Westeros"
Diana Riggs brought a bit of class to the GoT... her sharp wit, beautiful and persuasive dialogue, her demeanour her presence oozes British acting at it’s finest.. if only she had more roles like this... a certain award winning actress..
"The people are hungry for more than just food. They crave distractions, and if we don't provide them, they'll create their own. And their distractions are likely to end with us being torn to pieces.
I know it's been four years, but could you please, please, for the love of god, add quotation marks at the end of your post? It's bothering the hell out of me!
I didn't really follow the show but I love these scenes. Showing how a kingdom is actually run, the council meetings etc When you get to see how things are run and the logistics in any show, I find it interesting.
"They crave distractions. And if we don't provide them, they'll create their own. And their distractions are likely to end with us being torn to pieces." Bread and circuses, something that's been true of any society since the Romans...
Actually, it's because at the time he was having troubles with taking a proper shit (he even asked the maester to help him with that). And maybe she even knew about that and that's why she mentioned the figgs, as if to mock him/show him how much influence she has in the city to know that about him. It must have been intentional, I guess that "I eat this to shit well" is not a usual small-talk between two future royal family members.
I just don't understand why everyone says it went to shit after 4. It absolutely did *not* 5-6 were definitely less grand than 3-4(and 1-2 were actually on the tame side... But you can't blame them for it. We need build up to set context), but they weren't badly executed or badly written, overall Things didn't start really turning to shit until season 7
I think one thing people tend to overlook for this type of scene is that Tyrion should also be credited for listening to reason. That's one thing Tywin spoke of when talking about what wisdom is. He is listening to someone with a wealth of knowledge and experience and concedes that she is right, while still settling for a better position than before the exchange.
@Arruda a very intelligent old woman who even the time she was poisoned managed to make the lannisters look like fools. A rouse with thorns strong and sharp enough to strike a lion.
@@lindacartwright5100 Joffrey was very twisted and evil, also very stupid and foolish. He only lived as many years as he did by hiding behind his family's protection. They didn't see Lady Olenna as a threat (and never would have figured it out had she not told them as she was dying).
“I was told you were drunk, impertinent and thoroughly debauched. You can imagine my disappointment at finding nothing but a browbeaten bookkeeper” That was potentially the most savage insult in the entire show. Gods, the writing was strong then.
What, are you guys serious? That was a compliment, a flattery. Olenna basically said Tyrion was just a normal person; a dwarf yes, but normal, not a monster.
Lady Olenna was the only character that could put Tyrion on the spot and at a loss for a come-back. God, it's depressing listening to good dialogue and plotting, knowing how the series ended......
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"The people are hungry for more than just food: they crave distractions, and if we don't provide them, they'll create their own. And their distractions are likely to end with us being torn to pieces." Boy does this sound familiar...
Stannis Baratheon I'd add Prince Oberyn to this list. He was extremely intelligent and arrogant but not overbearing. He's what my grandmother would call "nice nasty" LOL!
jdsthird Prince Oberyn was intelligent, but he himself wouldn't have been a good Game of Thrones combatant if it wasn't for his brother, Doran Martell, doing all the planning. So I'd say that if you include both of them as a team, then I'd add them to the list.
Actually think about it....Lord Varys and Tyrion are ranked as some of the best players of the game in Westeros. Olenna completely saw through Varys and left Tyrion practically speechless. Its clear that she is definitely a good player and a sharper wit that Tyrion. Its seems that only Tywin can out gun her.
Littlefinger took advantage of her for his scheme to get rid of both Joffrey and Tyrion and free Sansa in the Purple Wedding plot though. So Littlefinger > Olenna/Tywin > Varys > Tyrion? But really I don't think they have any particular order, I always just think of them this way: Baelish goes all in on the short/medium term schemes (Starting the War of the Five Kings, Betraying Ned, Purple wedding...), Varys plays the really long term game which is why he has to adjust to a lot of speedbumps, whereas Tywin, Tyrion and Olenna just play the game reactively - not really scheming all that much but attempting to make the best of the cards they get dealt.
Nuclearcx littlefinger is a beast he can do long term short term he can do fucking everything by killing one king he managed to gain favor with the tyrells, get rid of both jeofry (who was an unreliable piece in the game) and tyrion (who was one of the few who saw littlefinger for what he was) he also managed to get sansa the key to the north who he can now use to strengthen his claim to the vale, the riverlands, and the north. and he managed to kill the king without being in the same city not to mention that by getting rid of tyrion he stopped tyrion from getting rid of littlefingers people in kingslanding meaning right now littlefinger controls like 80 percent of kingslanding market he could throw kings landing into economic chaos if he wished it
As far as "winning" the "game of thrones", imo Olenna has pretty much everyone beat - she didn't have a perfect run, by any means, but by age she outlived just about everyone in the show by decades. Living to that age is a win in and of itself.
this series is a reflection of modern society in many ways......for instance, keeping people distracted is a tactic that most powers in the world use, to keep the people from thinking and fighting for the right things
12,000 infantry men 1,800 mounted lances 2,000 in support provisions 1,000,000 bushels of wheat 500,000 bushels of barley 500,000 bushels of oats 500,000 bushels of rye 20,000 heads of cattle 50,000 sheep Wow. And yet the Sparrows could lay a hand on Margrey and Loras. Tyrells really just don't like making people suffer.
I love this scene, it's one of the few times Tyrion was completely out matched with words. It does shoe how much stronger the writing was when the series was based on the books.
So, I grew up with Diana Rigg's Emma Peel on the Avengers, and I have to admit I was very happy that she was given such a meaty, pointed role before she passed on. You can tell that she had a Hell of a lot of fun with it. I'm not even that big a GoT fan, but just like every other high fantasy fan in the world, I loved it when she looked at Jaime and said, 'Tell Cercei it was me...'
"I was told you were drunk, impertinent, and thoroughly divulged. You can imagine my disappointing in finding nothing but a brow-beaten bookkeeper." Pretty much how I feel about season 5+ Tyrion.
I love how Olenna and Oberyn both told him what they were expecting when they met him and said that they were disappointed in what they saw and how regular he seems in comparison. They both basically call him boring when his rumors make him out to be something much worse.
@@ricardo7308 yeah his face is all ruined with his nose missing But I mean the show tyrion. Olenna mentioned the rumors and it wasn't calling him a little imo/ demon- she was actually bored that he reads alot and is disinterested. And Oberyn gave the whole speech of that's not a monster that's a baby. His face during these exchanges... he's a great actor
I love how Tyrion grabs the fig from Pod's tray at the end and was like "gimme that" as he watches Lady Olenna walk away. Like damn, I just got owned... I'll have some of what she's having!
