The claim that icons were a corruption introduces by Constantine always seemed suspect to me. Thanks for showing that historical fact contradicts that claim. Icons were in existence and use long before the 'evil empire' (as some call it) came on the scene.
Here within the first hour! 🙂Wonderful Presentation, Fr. John! All glory to God! Interestingly enough I just today finished reading "Discourse Against Those Who Reject the Holy Icons" by Saint John of Damascus. This short, 20-page discourse is a must-read for all Orthodox Christians who see it as their mission to defend the use of Holy Icons in our homes, Churches, and Cathedrals! I, for one, feel that one can never know too much about Icons!
@cloudofwitnessesradio thank you.. excellent. But i can't see how to leave a comment except to answer you as i am doing now.. How wonderful to hear about Prince Abgar..
I was just in Rome with my wife and we saw the catacombs of Priscilla and saw the Good shepherd fresco. It was such an edifying and wonderful experience
According to the Bible, a “graven image” refers to a representation or likeness of anything in heaven, earth, or water, created to be worshiped or venerated as a substitute for God. This concept is rooted in the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:4-5, which prohibits making or bowing down to graven images. Scriptural Examples The Bible condemns the creation of graven images for worship, citing examples such as: Idols (Exodus 20:4-5, Deuteronomy 4:16-18) Images of gods and goddesses (Deuteronomy 7:25-26, 1 Kings 11:5-8) Charms and amulets (Deuteronomy 4:15-18) In contrast, God Himself commands the creation of images for specific purposes, such as: The Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-22) The cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22, 37:7-9) The bronze serpent (Numbers 21:4-9)
According to the Bible, a “graven image” refers to a representation or likeness of anything in heaven, earth, or water, created to be worshiped or venerated as a substitute for God. This concept is rooted in the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:4-5, which prohibits making or bowing down to graven images. Scriptural Examples The Bible condemns the creation of graven images for worship, citing examples such as: Idols (Exodus 20:4-5, Deuteronomy 4:16-18) Images of gods and goddesses (Deuteronomy 7:25-26, 1 Kings 11:5-8) Charms and amulets (Deuteronomy 4:15-18) In contrast, God Himself commands the creation of images for specific purposes, such as: The Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-22) The cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22, 37:7-9) The bronze serpent (Numbers 21:4-9)
The early Christians draw frescos of Jesus in the catacombs of Rome! In fact, the earliest known image of the Saviour is on the walls of those catacombs! Christianity is not Judaism! We're not under the law! Holy images from early on have been part of the Church, both East and West.
I had an opportunity a few years ago around Nativity to hear Fr. John speak about icons and hymnography, and he provided some phenomenal insights, particularly about how even Christmas carols we hear regularly these days are auditory icons of the reality of the Nativity.
Amazing video ! As a former Catholic, I fully agree with your assessment of Western iconography. Yes, it's true that some Orthodox icons adopt part of this style and remain very beautiful, “mystical” even. But to go any further would simply be to lose the icons. Let's face it: the West hasn't had icons in the strict sense of the word for a long time, it's had secular naturalistic art inspired by religion, and that's quite different. There's a reason why Sulpician art in particular has been so mocked: it's simply ridiculous and no longer contains anything sacred. The evolution of Western sacred art is best illustrated by its treatment of the “Sacred Heart”. In the beginning, almost a thousand years ago, the “Sacred Heart” of Christ was an almost “esoteric” monastic devotion, deeply rooted in dogmatics and anthropology, which saw in the heart the center of all human personhood, and thus in the Heart of Christ the “synthesized”, “punctualized” humanity of the Word radiating through his heart, through his humanity, to us. The rays themselves were represented according to a certain rule: straight to signify the radiance of God as Intelligence and Truth; wavy to signify the radiance of the warmth of his Love. Skip a few centuries and you end up with almost none of this. Christ is no longer portrayed as the Theanthropos, the unique divine center of all things radiating towards man through his own “cordial center”, no, Christ is no more than an endearingly effeminate man who suffered unjustly despite the fact that he loved men very much, and who asks us to console him by being devout and offering him our own sufferings, as if to amend those of his heart, which is now no more than a sentimental, bloody organ, a stylized piece of flesh symbolizing the "sores" of the rosy-cheeked Jesus with the three drops of blood trickling down his forehead on the cross. I pray and hope that not only the Orthodox but all Christians in general will become fully aware of the spiritual treasure that is the Church's iconography, and how important its understanding is for the restoration, however partial, of a true anthropology in the West.
Orthodox here. Certainly many good points and interesting perspectives here. I do think the criticism of Academic or Western style iconography is somewhat caricatured. The academic style is blessed and sanctified by the Church at large, and there are also many miracle working icons in the Academic style. Some do not like its style as an opinion but to make a broad claim that the Church has "Shaken off" the iconography of "western captivity" and now "Has come back to itself" and embraced "true iconography" is not reflective of the true state of iconographical tradition and traditional iconography schools. Just look at St.Seraphim of Sarovs favorite Icon to name one example among many. The Umileneye Icon is thoroughly western style, but no less worthy of veneration. So when it comes to opinions or preference of style there is nothing wrong to prefer Byzantine to Academic style, but to speak generally for the Church at large as prefering one as superior to another is simply inaccurate, and largely influenced by Leonid Ouspensky who although regarded highly in the west, does not represent the full picture of authentic iconographical tradition as accepted in the rest of the Orthodox world.
Very well stated. I don't tend to disagree with your general point. Certainly one sees even now a significant variation around the world cultures in terms of their iconography.
Fully agree! There has to be room for cultural variation. What may be a proper/reverent depiction of Christ’s humanity or divinity may not translate from one culture to the next. That’s not saying we are relativists, but the “Byzantine” way is not the only way. What can start as a defense of the theology of icons can quickly become arrogance.
Goodness the mental gymnastics prots have to play. It’s like how they say we’re only recognizing tradition of man yet sola scriptura and sola fide are both traditions 1500 years after Jesus. God bless you brother
"In former times, God, who is without form or body, could never be depicted. But now when God is seen in the flesh conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter; I worship the Creator of matter who became matter for my sake." - St. John of Damascus (+749) Just as the icons are mirrors that reflect Christ, we too are all called to be icons and reflect Christ. What does a mirror do? It reflects, it shows nothing of its own features. We decrease as He increases. Re: the shroud of turin, I agree Fr. it seems to be the authentic burial shroud. I read somewhere it's highly possible it was stolen from the east during the crusades just as many other relics and holy objects were.
It's odd how people will teach others that the Early Church did not have icons when Luke the Apostle created the first icon and Early Church history provides abundant evidence that the Early Church had icons. We live in a world today where people will pretend history didn't happen if it conflicts with their ideals or beliefs. This creates a hurdle for those seeking Truth, but by God's grace we all make our way over those hurdles and find the Truth despite the efforts to keep it hidden from us. Kyrie Eleison!
@friendsofsaintanthony I think so too, & I've never been a Protestant, but I did lose a dog that was a literal Saint of the animal world. I will see her again. She was only five & she died @ home. My sweet girl, my baby. My beautiful Olive.
It is a blessing when a former Bible believer can bring the Lord Word to an orthodox community because the orthodox faith people has none, almost absolutely no connection to Bible in their lives. Ive searched the salvation until i was 27 years old in 1995, being born in orthodox country and was impossible to find a spiritual priest or believer. The Lord led my steps through western believers to find the bible and are 29 years since then..im still in orthodox country Romania and still Bible is something strange for 99% of my fellow Romanians
You live in a country very rich in the Christian tradition and practice! I hear the Orthodox monasteries are stunning, and actively functioning. They have been there, and faithful Christians, we just have to seek them out. Praise God that you are faithful now!
This is not true , the apostole Luc painted 70 icons of Holly Mother Mary , the archeollogists discovered a churche in Turkey from the early churches, around 70 ac , all the walls were having icons . Amen
@@ketogenic_ron The existant iconography in the catacombs of Rome are from the very early times in the church, likely dated about 100AD or so. Even non-Christian historians will agree to that, as it is common knowledge. Think about all the artwork that was destroyed, lost, and that we simply do not know about. But enough has survived that we do know about from the early decades of the Christian communities.
it is odd that in the title He depicts himself as a historian but doesn't give a single reference of an early church father who talks of icon veneration. Icons and relics are a beautiful thing to behold of our church history. These items are not in question. The question is where are the early church fathers teaching "veneration" of these objects. Many early church fathers wrote and taught against veneration. I would like references from Father John on early church fathers who wrote about veneration in a positive light. Where are the early church writings that depict kissing and bowing to images and praying through images. Especially pre-4th century.
Christ restored all to Himself. Our apostolic churches hold the Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity. We have arts, flowers, greenery, icons, statues, not at and of themselves. Not at all.
That's a very interesting perspective. Though I see your point (I think), the best of us, the best of "religion" is people earnestly and humbly seeking a relationship with God - those are not interested in carpet color, generally.
Icons are not the only way to depict sacred art, the artists forms of the Orthodox Church were more a result of average draftsmanship than a style that was mandatory, they weren't the best at drawing to put it simply. Turning a style into a kinda of artistic dogma is incorrect, the Sistine Chapel and the starue of David do not look like Greek Icons. There are no "Big eyes" on the shroud of Turin.
Interesting perspectives. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I think that one issue I'd have with what you've written is the conflation between Christian art and icons. Though icons are sometimes thought of as artistic, they are not merely art... they are sacred means of grace, connecting us to the heavenly realm.
@@cloudofwitnessesradio Yes but so is the Sistine Chapel and the statue of David Sacred art, I paint murals for the Catholic Church both TLM and Novus Ordo but the Icon painters cannot or will not do what I do but I can assure you that I can paint Icons in any Orthodox church if asked. The Icon painting style is not strangely enough "Orthodox" the western art of Michaelangelo and the other greats of the renaissance are objective truth which I believe is what God is. Painted Icons are beautiful but they do not capture creation as it truly is and one look at the Piata proves this in my opinion. In addition the Orthodox Churches cannot break the style of what has become to some degree their identity thus nothing new can be installed in their Sanctuaries largely. In a way they are limited and remember even the Icons were once a brand new expression in their history. AMDG
@@cloudofwitnessesradio really? Can I quietly acknowledge icons as characters of other believers ? Not kiss them or pray. I’ll admit I never been to an orthodox service just 2nd hand experiences but I’m not aware of any Orthodox Church that welcomes all believers like Christ did. Can you point me to an Orthodox Church that has a mission like Christ did to take care of if the handicap and forgotten adults in our community? Because the need is big
To Believe means to be persuaded or convinced Jesus is the Christ Christ means Messiah/Savior Jesus Christ is the Son of God He Saves people from Everlasting Death He Died on the Cross, was buried, and Rose again on the third day. He Conquered Death for all Humans, no matter who they are or what they have done or will do. Salvation If you believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God, and that He gives you eternal life simply for believing in Him, you have eternal life (John 20:31; 1 John 5:1, 10-11). New King James Version John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him Once Saved Always Saved John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
An example problem. The Apostolic Church presented a straightforward, realistic, and very human picture of Mary. Saintly, but not extraordinarily so, when compared to those having walked alongside Jesus throughout His ministry. In John, Mary is mentioned in the inglorious request she made of Jesus at a wedding. His brothers clearly disbelieve Him. And Jesus tells John that she may be His responsibility at the darkest of times, during and following His crucifixion. Hence, the spiritual sword Jesus had explicitly mentioned bringing into the world through His ministry had divided even His own household. For example, in Matthew 10:34-36 we read Jesus saying: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household." Thus, as a new spiritual family called the Church was emerging amidst such conflicts, Jesus compassionately spoke to an immediate concern. However, from the beginning, Mary held and would have no special status or role.... Matthew 12:46-50: "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Luke 11:27-28: "As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You. But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Acts 1:12-14: "Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers." Notice that in the above list of earliest Disciples, Mary was mentioned only after the women who regularly followed Jesus and just before His previously unbelieving brothers. Therefore, it doesn't appear as though Mary was ever considered or presented as an extraordinary role model or guide when compared to any of Jesus's closest followers. Nor does she appear otherwise in writings from the earliest Fathers of the Church. Nevertheless, if anyone can provide explicit Scriptural statements demonstrating the contrary position, please do so. As someone having been on a long intellectual and spiritual journey, I am committed to finding Truth. Apart from such revelation all pertinent evidence suggests that worldly sentiment led to abstract eisegesis and over reaching in theological discourse. From these forces a grand and glossy but ultimately unwarranted and undesirable tradition has arisen within Christ's Holy Church.
According to the Bible, a “graven image” refers to a representation or likeness of anything in heaven, earth, or water, created to be worshiped or venerated as a substitute for God. This concept is rooted in the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:4-5, which prohibits making or bowing down to graven images. Scriptural Examples The Bible condemns the creation of graven images for worship, citing examples such as: Idols (Exodus 20:4-5, Deuteronomy 4:16-18) Images of gods and goddesses (Deuteronomy 7:25-26, 1 Kings 11:5-8) Charms and amulets (Deuteronomy 4:15-18) In contrast, God Himself commands the creation of images for specific purposes, such as: The Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-22) The cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22, 37:7-9) The bronze serpent (Numbers 21:4-9)
@NicholasF.-gj4jp Protestants fully understand New Testament theology. What's more, they understand they are no longer under the Law! Do you understand it?!
@@cloudofwitnessesradio A practice that is very late compared to early christianity and a testimony which includes no early christian doesn't prove at all that early christians practiced icon veneration An honest view of the historical case would lead to the conclusion that Christians were defiant of images and art.
Something tells me that you did not listen to this episode throughout. But appreciate your thoughts on this. I am a former Protestant Calvinist, now Orthodox Christian. I once thought as you do. Please keep seeking the fullness of the Faith.
@@nathanmagnuson2589 According to the Bible, a “graven image” refers to a representation or likeness of anything in heaven, earth, or water, created to be worshiped or venerated as a substitute for God. This concept is rooted in the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:4-5, which prohibits making or bowing down to graven images. Scriptural Examples The Bible condemns the creation of graven images for worship, citing examples such as: Idols (Exodus 20:4-5, Deuteronomy 4:16-18) Images of gods and goddesses (Deuteronomy 7:25-26, 1 Kings 11:5-8) Charms and amulets (Deuteronomy 4:15-18) In contrast, God Himself commands the creation of images for specific purposes, such as: The Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-22) The cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22, 37:7-9) The bronze serpent (Numbers 21:4-9) they are idols
How can Patriarch Kirill bless a nuclear missile. Why have they rejected the Chair of Peter? Before 1054 there was NO orthodox church, and only after 1054 the the Orthodox came into existence and is in dull drum since. The Holy Pope took away the Eucharist on June 10, 2013!
James, unlike issues with the papacy over the centuries, what on Patriarch does or doesn't do, bares little on the faith or theology. Come home, brother Orthodoxy has preserved what Rome continues to innovate.
No it isn't adding anything. The Bishops who were at the councils were guided by the Holy Spirit, and they wrote those things. If you dislike that then by extension you are denying the work of the Holy Spirit and His guiding the church in time and space aka History. Nothing happens without God guiding his church and the Bishops are the ones who formulated the tradition by the teachings of Christ to the Apostles. Every tradition and doctrine made by the Church and its ORTHODOXY is guided by the Holy Spirit who is God. The Priesthood of Aron in the old Testament was made by God, and he ordered their vestments and the Tabernacle and everything about their worship. That Priesthood also made the traditions until Christ came. Christ never rebuked their tradition, he rebuked their infidelity and walking away from faith and becoming part of the world. The Priesthood of the Church that continues from the Apostles HAS the same authority to hold councils and create tradition which was cemented until this day just like the Priesthood of Aron did in his day. So if you dislike what is written in the councils and what has been dogma and anathema from them, just know that you are denying the work of the Holy Spirit and His guidance of the Church. God bless you ☦️🙏
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. Galatians 3:1 Pretty clear the tone of the message is not all friendly and fluffy
@@godsaveskyrieeleison5859 So if they turned around tomorrow and said 'Greed is good' or 'Satan is great' or 'Holy war against Ukraine', then that would also be ok? The bishops can just say whatever they want and that immediately is kosher because the 'Holy Spirit' is guiding them? What a dangerous theology. Pure Fideism.
@@clivejungle6999Right, because it much better to interpret the church, bible and traditions by what Paster Pete says it is. Yet, Paster Mike down the road in another Protestant church can interpret the bible, traditions or church history in a different way.
Anathemas apply to those within and governed by the Church if it applies to someone who claims to be Orthodox and yet for whatever reason would reject icons despite having been taught the truth. It doesn't mean your protestant family is "damned" this is a legalistic western view of how God works and it's wrong. To reject icons having understood the proper theology is to reject Christ's incarnation which is damnable, there's no reason for Christianity if one rejects the incarnation as then they've rejected God's truth.
@@cloudofwitnessesradio any Muslim saying they do not believe this is practicing taqiyya. Their allah given right to lie to non Muslims, in order to protect their satanic pagan cult Sunan an-Nasa'i 2919 "O Abu abdur-Rahman, why do I only see you touching these two corners?" He said: "I heard the Messenger of Allah say: 'Touching them erases sins.' And I head him say: 'whoever circumambulates seven times, it is like freeing a slave.'"
@@dashcamacademy6457 According to the Hadith, Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Abbaas narrates that Rasulullah said, ‘Hajr-e-Aswad (the black stone) was revealed from Jannat (Heaven) and it was whiter than milk. Thereafter, the sins of man had blackened it.’ (Tirmidhi vol.1 pg.166; HM Saeed)
@@dashcamacademy6457 Here is a GREAT source for knowledge of the pagan roots of islam. Most are hard to find. answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm
Bergoglio the Viper. was deposed, dethroned as pope, by our Heavenly Father on December 17, 2023 via a Miracle when a Statue of St. Peter in Buenos Aires, Argentina was struck by Holy Lightening. Tom Hubbard River Bend, NC, USA, a parishioner of St. Paul Catholic Church and Knight Templar.
