Ukraine - a tragedy of conflicting narratives |  

No, Ukraine was a fragmented thing already, that is why it was easy to for foreign interest to interfere.

Ukraine was ok vs. it is now - but in fact, it never was ok, even before 2014. It could have been a great example for being a bridge for Russia and Europe, thriving, growing. But it failed miserably from Day 1 on. I guess the oligarchs are to blame. And unlike Russia, they didn't have anyone to subdue them.

​@K2teknik. Yes, cultural and linguistic tensions have always existed between the Western and Eastern parts of Ukraine.

Wtf... shall we talk about facts? Russian troll.

@@K2teknik. Ukraine was divided, but it had a moderate government. All differences were decided by voting like it had to be in a democracy. It was enough for the West to stay away from these differences and not finance the radical groups. I live in Crimea. I saw how Americans were involved in Ukrainian politics. First Orange revolution in 2004-2005 when they installed a president Yuschenko married to an American wife. They organized a reform in Ukrainian education and raised a generation of haters for Maidan 2014. The current war is a direct result of the American politic, both arrogant and ignorant. Or this war is exactly what they wanted to raise their weapons sales and weaken Russia.

Good comment , i agree with you about the western imperialistic interests

We have heard from the collective West's leaders that their goal is to break into parts. The Ukrainian population has been completely brainwashed and is being used to fight against Russia.

Look up how central african countries are kicking out the french and americans, and bring in the russians, the west’s options for resources are shrinking by the day, making it lose its competitiveness against China

Very surprising to hear comment like that from a Dutchman, I live in the Netherlands and have been absolutely shocked that 100% of the Dutch I am surrounded by falls for the narrative of the mainstream media without giving any thought about obvious questions, for them Russia is bad, Ukraine is good and there is nothing more to add to that, anyone who even tries to think with their own head is immediately labeled and discarded. Sad situation, really.

@@zharkoo Ignorance, in the Netherlands, is almost general.

U guys better make sure Trump takes office so this chapter can be closed asap

They were crazy before 9/11, it was them together with mossad who planned and executed it.

@@filmdude5058 Why don't we take care of our part of the mess we're in ?

@@hansjohan3150 because europe is a bunch of vassal states of the US, our masters are in washington

@@filmdude5058 No Robert Kennedy!

I agree it was mostly a fair view of history but he does try to paper over the attrocities of the banderites both during WWII and after the Maidan revolution.

I only read from wikileaks that the US wanted to establish diplomatic presence or something along those lines on Crimea. Which ofc is already sus to me and I could absolutely see them aiming for a NATO base. Anyways, if you have anything more specific on the topic than what we know from the wikileaks, could you point me to it?

@@nikola4362 - "Anyways" is not a word. Do you write "ain't?"

@@johnsmith1474 Why do you think I care if its a word. Now its a word, get over it.

Bullshit, check how long Lwów. was in H "empire,' , look on historic map

@@krzysztoftomczak4433lvov is western ukraine, so he’s correct.. look up your geography before commenting

@@filmdude5058 hm . . probably u r from ??? ;-) Easy irritated when it comes to the fact that 'Ukraine' is just a border . . isnt it?

@@user-hn9tq5yf2n Even Poland was a part of the Russian Empire before 1917 not to mention western Ukraine.

​@@willemdederde6669yes, ukraine translation is borderland.😅

Unfortunately, the fact that US always use the diversity in countries all over the world to start wars or/and create coups. Divide and conquer. However, we all know such diversities can also be united by respect, education (understanding) and good will.

​@@ellengran6814isn't that like "wahabisme"? Is as old as Warfare. As using prisoners in war. But totally true the West is Master in it.

What is your opinion on forbidding the Ruusian language in public areas ? Speaking by a majority in (east) Ukraine. Ty and hoping for peace as soon as possible.

@@Bigliever Most of Eastern Ukraine is now under Russian occupation and Ukrainian laws are irrelevant here. Instead of this there are laws and cultural norms against Ukrainian language, Ukrainian media and Ukrainian culture.

Most of Eastern Ukraine is free from western occupation . Ukrainian language is one of state languages in Crimea, for example. It's not true that Ukrainian language and culture are forbidden by Russia. You can find them even in Moscow. Don't listen to propaganda. People are able to choose which language they use and study in the school..

That's because they didn't have much impact. The whole idea of the two conflicting narratives is that they came from people with agency. The ukrainians who went out into the streets to oppose what they saw as a Russian political coup truly believed in what they were doing. - It is also true that Russia did try to engineer separatism throughout Ukraine that simply failed in a lot of places.

@@markheithaus - What? No Ukrainians "went out into the streets to oppose what they saw as a Russian political coup ..." where did you get that junk idea? Ukraine had a democratically elected president with elections coming up within the year, and he swung Ukraine a deal with Russia that was far more lucrative than the Western offer. Maidan protesters were a small minority of people in the country when the US paid Azov militants to start breaking heads, lighting cops on fire and shooting people, before they broke into the Parliament building. The coup government was a US funded nazi ridden joke, and when it was replaced by Poroshenko he started killing Russian speaking Ukrainians as a sop to the Azov cadre he needed to stay in power. Wake up.

@@markheithausVictoria Nuland was heavily involved so was CIA

@@Lunde859 sure, and so was the Russian FSB. - The point is that it was a popular uprising that the CIA couldn't have generated or controlled if they wanted to. The FSB tried to foment various coups throughout Ukraine, prompting complaints about the lack of support from Russian speakers. In Odessa Russian speaking Ukrainians shut down the Russian coup. You can't use a simplified narrative of CIA or FSB "mind control" to strip people of agency and responsibility.

Slight correction: the Odessa massacre took place in a Trade Unions building. Agree on all points.

​@@alexanderkolesnik6942 both correct: left activists set their stall outside and retreated later under attack into the Trade Union building.

Just as the author is about to say something interesting, he gets interrupted.

Kinda in the middle, a Cossack Hetmanate of one Bohdan Khmelnytsky, pledged allegiance to and joined the Russian Tsardom in 1654. Kiev itself fell to the Golden Horde in 1240, was then taken by the Lithuanians in the Battle of Blue Waters in 1363, to finally be bought back, together with territories east of the Dnieper River, from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the Tsarist Russia in 1686 [Purchase Deed technically still valid today].

From the 14th to the 16th century Ukraine was part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

@@MrRight1000 Stop misinforming lazy people about Ukraine, and read the history very well before committing, portions of Ukraine were ruled by Lithuania, Poland and Russia. In addition, Cossacks controlled a largely self-governing territory known as the Hetmanate. Most of Ukraine fell to Russian rule in the 18th century.

@@user-id8cu4pc5z "Stop misinforming lazy people about Ukraine, ..." -- Haha... ​Rather authoritarian, soviet style statement, wouldn't you say? 😅

@@MrRight1000 I'm referring to the habit of lazy individuals being constantly misinformed about what is going on. The only authoritarian nation attempting to rewrite history is the United States of America. In twenty years, the US will undoubtedly assert-with complete certainty-that the Soviet Union dropped a nuclear weapon on Japan during WW2 and i am sure that majority of western lazy uninform population will believe.

Absolutely correct.

Thats Adrian, he likes to hear himself talk 🤣🤣

There are two different sorts of "COSSACKS". The Ukrainian cAssacks are not the the same as Kuban's or Don's cOssacs...even spelling is different, with an A, not an O, in the Russian language. They have nothing to do with Russian cossacks, who were indeed of a similar historically sociological origin; they did run away from impinging serfdom laws and were exempt from such in exchange for being warier peasant frontier settlers on the borders of the Russian Empire; they were obligated to join the armed forces at call. Kuban cossacks were an essential part of the growing Russian settlement in what now is Eastern Ukraine and the Rostov region of Russia, which was only commenced by Catherine the Second in the 18th century as a ball work against Turks. All those territories belonged to Ottomas until 18th century. By this time cAssacks were out of existence they were incorporated into the Russian empire. "Taras Bulba" is about cAssacks, and "The Done Run Quiet" is about cOssacks. The easy way to remember.

Do they have Polish names, as Chmielnitsky did?

Nicolau totally ignored Taras Bulba, didn't suit his narrative, he was trying to convince us that Bohdan Chmielnitsky was a Kossak with the Polish name.

The difference between Cassacks and Cossacks is the same as between Kiev and Kyiv. They are spelled differently. Actually most Ukrainian Cossacks were moved closer to Caucasus by Catherine the Great. During last 30years (and especially during last 10 years) Ukrainian history is rewritten, people are brainwashed, that's why we see some special Ukrainian Cossacks. They even translated Taras Bulba to Ukrainian language and replaced Russia with Ukraine. That's how special Ukrainian Cossacks are created.

Cossacks spelled with an "o" in Ukrainian, but with an "a" in Russian. And that's the only difference - it's the same word/term. Cossacks are the people, outlaws most of the time, who run away (be it from Russia at the time, or Poland, or Crimea...) and settled at the border (of Russia, Poland, etc). And though they settled, they kept their "military" origins. Think of Stepan Razin for example. A legendary leader of a gang (from the state point of view), who robbed the whole of the Caspian region (incl. a famous Persian hike). Ethnically Cossacks were predominantly Slavic (Russian, Polish), but with lots of "additions" - from the western and central Europe, Turkey/ottoman, the Balkans...

Good observation. Thje interviewer has been told so many times :)

Yes this is his modus operandi.

Look in the description below the video. It states: "Adrian Verbrugge in conversation with Nicolai Petro on the war in Ukraine". So it's deliberate to be a conversation and not an interview. I kinda like it that way. We have to be careful not to look at it with a certain frame we all grew up in.

He always does that , seen for a few years.

This is exactly what I wanted to say. The Interviewer interrupts a lot thus making it impossible for the interviewee to complete several meaningful thoughts and topics.

From the 14th to the 16th century, Ukraine was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

A part of Ukraine

Do you have a point?

...it was? WOW! Who would ever have guessed! Who did you hear that from? Or, since you sound like a very bright guy, What book did you read that stated this?

@@user-id8cu4pc5z Not an argument for Russia or an argument against Ukraine. Because something existed in the past it doesn't mean that this must be preserved now. Reminder that slavery was considered to be a cultural norm throughout history.

I agree. I feel that the natural EU pluriculturalism is homogenized by a top-down imposed control system through the use of invented and propagandized crisis and fears around the themes Energy, Health, Food, Climate, i.e. from the top straight down into the microlevel of society, which is the powerless individual.

Finally an adult in the room, thanks. Sad thing is this falls on the mostly deaf ears, heavily manipulated by misinformation, people here in the west. Greets from Australia

Thanks for your wise words!

Very diplomatic comment 👏

You’re mistaken Dutch communication style for blunt insecurities. But it’s ok because you intended well.

I'm halfway now, very interesting, and till now I don't recognize "the exposing your own [Adrian's] knowledge" since he (Ad/Adrian) is mainly citing from Petro's own book, isn't he? He is even surprised at 42:51 about some new [thinks Adrian] very interesting information that is only mentioned in a footnote and says "I learned something new you didn't write about it [in] your book" and Petro answers "well you didn't check [...] the footnotes, that's good I have so many". And indeed they have 2 hours, so Adrian wants to really get deep into everything...

He's also blind to military reality.

Ik hoop met name dat onze "main stream media", de staats gesubsidieerde, er naar luisteren!

Ben het volledig met je eens, ik had het niet beter kunnen verwoorden. Door het voortdurend interrumperen van Ad wordt het een chaotisch en soms zelfs onsamenhangend gesprek. Het gebrek aan "fluency" van het Engels van Ad maakt het er niet beter op.

volledig mee eens, net als je mee bent in het verhaal is Ad er weer om het verhaal te onderbreken met zijn "wijsneus"- opmerkingen (om toch maar te tonen dat hij er eigenlijk niets van weet) en kan je "fluiten" naar het vervolg van het verhaal. Dat heb je als de interviewer zijn gesprek niet degelijk heeft voorbereid, geen verhaallijn heeft en zichzelf zo graag hoort praten. Mijn deelneming aan de studenten die examen bij hem moeten afleggen...

agree, it was dificult to listen; if you want to ask question, wait before guest finishes and then ask the question - just not smooth conversation as it should be

Idd Ad blijft blunderen hij moet zich telkens laten gelden; katholieken en protestanten in Nederland; over de vezuiling in Nederland. Snapt hij nu nog niet dat het compleet de verhaallijn van de gast torpedeert en door die zijstapjes de luisteraar ook belemmert het verhaal van de gast te blijven volgen? Hij moet vragen stellen die een verduidelijking en toevoeging zijn op de kennis die de gast probeert over te brengen op zijn publiek. Ad zijn rol moet ondergeschikt blijven. Hij volhardt in het niet begrijpen. Ook het interview met Colonel Mcgreggor verknalde hij op precies dezelfde wijze. Een geweldige gast trouwens. En dat maakt het nog erger. Doe er wat aan Ad!!!!

Cannot agree more. The potential of this conversion was dramatically diminished by constant interruption and talking over Mr Petro. The questions were good, I wish, however, that we were allowed to listen to the answer in full.

Ik proef hier een onderhuids ongenoegen. In mijn ogen ten dele terecht. Zeker, in een gesprek zit Ad op het puntje van zijn stoel en er zijn interviews dat de balans zoek is, maar ik voel ook heel duidelijk daarin de passie voor het uitdiepen van het onderwerp. Zonder deze passie zou de nieuwe wereld denk ik niet kunnen bestaan. Het verwijt dat iedereen het wel weet zegt mijns inziens meer over uw ongenoegen. Het gesprek moet ook binnen een tijdsbestek. Ik heb met heel erg veel genoegen naar beide heren zitten luisteren, 2 mannen die ons veel van hun boeiende kennis meegeven. Dank hiervoor!

They omitted many aspects. Professor Petro looks good only against the background of outright liars masquerading as historians working day and night to construct and maintain the false western narrative.

Because great historians generally stay away from kremlin political propaganda. Nikolai makes reference to the "Russian Imperialist narrative", the above would be part of that.

Kind of similar thing in former Yugoslavia starting all the way back in Roman empire times. Religion and different occupires of that teritory divided more or less the same people that went through three wars in 20th century. More or less the same language is now also 'divided' and got political names. That did not happen with English which is still English in England, USA, Canada, Australia. Ukranian language looks similar to Russian (to me) but I cannot judge how much is different. Very similar recepies used to divide people and turn them against each other in former Yugoslavia.

Can you recommend an English resource for learning more about this history? Or an easily accessible Russian resource? I can probably use a translator app.

​@@WhateverrocksyourboatSearch for The Internment of Russophiles in Austria-Hungary

@@maxinfly thank you!!!

He will never learn. So many people told him dont interrupt so much. Its good to summarize the chain of thought now and then during the conversation.. But Ad interviews are more of a demonstration of his own chain of thought and give his version before the guest could make his point. Thats why this conversation is very hard to follow.

😂😂 right.

Actually he's quite good and conversational, all useful stuff.

Helemaal eens!

Precies, nationale held in west Oekraine en wij steunen het regelrechte fascistische regime in Kiev. Hoop dat mijn reactie blijft staan.

What about Victoria Newland, the CIA and the Bandera militant fighters that backed them.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uVVRccerdW0.html&rco=1 nothing this bullshiters claim that UA nazi are "heros" and want with this "heros" enter to EU

​@@dineke346Voorlopig staat uw reactie er nog. Je hebt gelijk. Als er in Vlaanderen op een betoging een Vlaamse Leeuw te zien is wordt er al van extreem rechts gesproken. Of "bloed en bodem" rood en zwart. Net zoals de vlag gebruikt in Oekraïne...

@@Bigliever heb ook al 2 x een uitgebreidere reactie getypt, mbt Bandera maar die stond er nog geen minuut.

Hij gaat tegen de gevestigde ideologie in en dan wordt je genegeerd. Het gaat niet om waarheid, maar om ideologie, helaas. Daarom laten veel mensen zich niet overtuigen.

@@TinusTegenlicht precies, in deze verwarrende uitzending worden belangrijke feitelijkheden simpelweg niet benoemd. DNW is wat Jensen msm alternatieve media normt

@@dineke346 Wat een onzin, je kunt toch niet alles benoemen en bespreken in een uur tijd. En in andere gesprekken kwamen bepaalde zaken wel naar voren, zoals bij McGregor en Kees van der Pijl op DNW. Wat wordt dan niet benoemd volgens u?

@@TinusTegenlicht dat de CIA Maidan coup zorgvuldig is voorbereid en uitgevoerd met behulp van bewapende fascisten die op de aanwezige politie en op de demonstrerende burgers schoten. De mensen als McCain , Verhofstadt, Nuland en Biden due de demonstraten maandenlang een glorieuze toekomst in Europa voorspiegelden, plus miljarden steun toezegden. De bevolking kende niet anders dan corruptie en werd een democratisch, vredig welvarende toekomst voorgespiegeld. Er was niet sprake van een neurale tendens vanuit de bevolking om zivh tegen Rusland te vertzetten.

@@TinusTegenlicht Van der Pijl noemt uitsluitend feitelijkheden en noemt man en paard en niet de aanname dat er vanuit de bevolking een tendens was om zich meer naar Europa te wenden. Hij beschrijft van uur tot uur de toedracht van de Maidan coup. Ik noem slechs Mc Cain, Nuland, Verhofstadt, van Baalen, Biden en de gewapende Bandera milities. Dit is maar 1 voorbeeld.

Was Crimea Russian in 1100?

@@xxvxxv5588 yes. Chroetsjov who was an Oekrainer gave it to Oekraine round 1950 in the USSR time. It was in the thougt that the USSR always would exist.

Less than 6 per cent of Crimea’s written history (from the 9th century BC to date) belongs to the Russian chapter. Before 2014, Crimea was under Russian control for a total of only 168 years.157 In fact, Russia is just one of several powers that have aimed to dominate the peninsula. At the dawn of its history, Crimea was a Greek land. It later developed at the intersection of different civilizations and empires. Until the mid-15th century, the peninsula was a space of unique cohabitation between the Khanate of Crimea, Genoese colonies on the coast and the Principality of Theodor (Byzantium) in the southwest. Thereafter, the khanate expanded and became, for over 300 years, a dominant power as a protectorate under the Ottoman Empire. Crimea was an Orient in miniature, with a Turkic-Muslim culture. Russia invaded Crimea in 1783, as part of a westward expansion seeking control of the Mediterranean and the Middle East. The ambition of Catherine the Great was to establish a new Byzantium in Constantinople, with her grandson Constantine as its emperor. Defeat in the Crimean War of 1853-56 temporarily halted Russia’s continuing territorial aspirations in the region by leading to a ban on military arsenals in the Black Sea, although within 14 years Russia unilaterally abrogated this obligation and continued its military build-up. Imperial Russia and later the Soviet Union were mistrustful of the indigenous population of Crimean Tatars. The Russian policy was one of forced displacements, colonization and Russification to enshrine dominance. The peninsula’s demographics underwent change following the forced outward migration of Crimean Tatars after the annexation of 1783 and the Crimean War. A further major deportation in 1944 marked a continuation of the long-standing imperial practice of expelling native populations and taking over their lands. According to the last official Ukrainian census of 2001, 60 per cent of the population of Crimea consisted of ethnic Russians, while 24 per cent were Ukrainians and 10 per cent Crimean Tatars, the three most numerous groups.

@@janjorgendevries2927 there have been referenda and over 80% choose to belong to the Russian Federation. The same happined in the Donbass with the same result. They have proposesed to held new referenda under UN controll but that was rejected, for the outcome would gave the same result. The genocide against the donbass, 14.000 victims, through the Kiev regime is even not mentioned.

@@janjorgendevries2927 your opinion is clear to me, why not talk about the coups that the USA arranged since ww2, 70 to be extact, not to mention all the wars they started and the colour revolutions with the help of Soros.

Wat zou je hem vragen als je de kans kreeg?

Tucker Carlson , last february , interviewde V. Poetin . Aanrader

Wat is de waarheid

@@reinduhr Geen idee. En als ik eentje had zou het ieder geval niet over politiek gaan.

@@edmundfrancispietrodleon9825 informeer , inlezen en oordelen , geduld uitoefenen en ZELF bepalen , niet laten misleiden door onze media. Veel geluk.

agree, much better host, Nima

its not a journalist, you follow a conversation between two people and there is a camera

@@dnaindex 🤷‍♀️ didn‘t you get it? Call it „the host of the channel“ then 🙄 It’s just rude to behave like this host did I’ve never experienced on other channels I watch. Btw the channel info says the channel would be a „initiative between a journalist and“ two other people. 😉

Misschien even aan Ad vragen? Wie zijn "logische gespreksindeling" kan volgen moet nog geboren worden... Hij hoort zichzelf zo graag en kan niet luisteren naar een ander. Sorry.

Verbrugge’s zelf gecreëerde gespreks chaos opruimen?

@@danyholtappels8355 Een eigenschap van bevlogen mensen is, dat ze heel gepassioneerd kunnen zijn in hun gesprekken. Ik kon het gesprek prima volgen en ik houd daarbij in gedachten, dat zonder deze bevlogenheid DNW er niet zou zijn. Ik ben Ad daar zeer dankbaar voor.

@@annekedercksen7071 dan ben jij de geknipte persoon om Jelle te hulp te schieten want ook "arme Jelle" is in dit gesprek helemaal "het noorden" kwijt.

Being an opponent of the USA is dangerous, being it's friend is deadly.

What are you trying to say with 'this view included the Balkans'. What Russia has to do with Balkans? Balkan is occupied by nato today. There are no Russians there. Nato bombed former Yugoslavia, not Russia. It was part of nato expansion. Some balkan countries joined nato against people's will, Montenegro, Macedonia.

@@drnda2007 As a child I didnt know this I just perceived the people as being the same.

Russians are less spoiled by the western woke ideology. In Russia men are men, women are women. They are not bully, they are normal. The West is bully when they are trying to spread their rules all over the world including Russia. They managed to do it with Ukraine and now you see the result. Because the West is not only arrogant, they are ignorant without understanding of history and culture. Ukraine was a peaceful and happy country before the western organized coup in 2014.

@@sliptrikk3018 You need to learn World history.

Hongarije claimt ook een deel, oekraine wordt opgedeeld

@@filmdude5058Is it right to see Ukraine as an artificial state made out of various bits from former empires? In short, a typical buffer-state that had to remain neutral at any cost. Alas, the nationalist clique in Kiev already started cheating about that in the 1990s. Extremely pushy, corrupted, and dangerously revengeful guys... Definitely unreliable partners.

@@fabiengerard8142 yes

Spot on.

He's worried about being called antisemitic 😆 🤣

ah, geen Benny Morris? 🌝

@@ericspoor8175 Die heeft in het debat dat gemodereerd werd Lex Friedman laten zien dat hij staats historicus is.