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Uncovering The Truth About Quran Preservation With Dr. Marijn van Putten 

MythVision Podcast
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Check out Dr. Marijn van Putten links: 🔥
His new book:
brill.com/view/title/61587
Book:👉 www.amazon.com/Grammar-Awjila...
Academia SIte: 👉 leidenuniv.academia.edu/Marij...
Dr. van Putten's Patreon: 👉 / phdnix
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Check out Dr. Bart D. Ehrman’s lecture “Did Jesus Call Himself God? A Closer Look at the Evidence!” Here in this link. MythVision will be here! mythvisionpodcast.com/bart
=====================
Thank's to Abdullah Gondall for the questions and slides for this episode.
1) Is the Quran “preserved”? In the theological sense of dot to dot
2) What is mutawatir, and are the qiraat (Reading Traditions) “mutawatir”? How many total Mutwatir Qiraat? 7 or 10 or 14 or 25?
3) How many variants exist in the whole quranic corpus? An approximate number?
4) (Sanaa lower text#1,2,3) What is the significance of the Sanaa manuscript/palimpsest? The lower text & its variants
5) (modern variants#1,2,3,4) Are there any significant meaning changes due to any of the variants?
6) What exactly is the dialect of the Quran, and is that the dialect Muhmammad was speaking in. Historians say some arabic pronunciations are lost
7) Does anyone even know what does “ahruf”(Ah-roof) mean? Can you elaborate on the 40 different opinions
8) Do you think the Quran was burned to eliminate the growing variants in the empire?
9) What is the magnitude of variants between companion codices? Ibn Masud vs Ubay vs Zaid for example (Whole chapters missing according to each)
10) Do any Mutwatir Qiraat deviate from Uthmanic Rasm?
11) Is there significant variability in manuscripts? Or manuscript evolution?
12) Can canonical readings be rejected? Why did Tabari reject canonical readings?
13) Can any canonical readings be grammatically incorrect?
14) What if 2 canonical readings contradict? Are there any examples
Timestamps
0:00 Introductions
4:50 Is the Quran preserved from a theological perspective?
15:53 What is Mutawatir? How accurate are they? Are the qiraa’t mutawatir? And how many are there?
24:35 Is it possible to have questionable chains of transmission? - Ibn Ahmed’s case
31:30 How many variants exist in the Quranic corpus? Non-canonical readings. Impact of reciters’ linguistic flares on the reading of the Quran
35:49 What is the significance of the Sanaa manuscripts?
41:10 Sanaa lower text 1 - Surah Baqarah 2 : 222. Is the Sanaa lower text older than the canonized/modern version?
46:07 Sanaa lower text 2 - Surah Munafiqun 63:3.
50:58 Sanaa lower text 3 - Surah Tawbah 9:18
55:38 Are there any significant meaning changes due to variants? Can they be reconciled with the main canonized text?
58:12 Variants of Surah Maidah 5:6
1:00:17 Variants of Surah Qasas 28:48
1:04:55 Variants of Surah Anbiya 21:4
1:08:51 What is the dialect of the Quran? Was this the same dialect for Muhammad?
1:16:33 What is the impact of having the Quran revelation in a dialect that was not the vernacular for Muhammad and his companions?
1:20:11 What does Ahruf mean? The story of the seven ahruf
1:24:25 Did Uthman burn other versions of the Quran? Were these supposedly burnt copies drastically different from the standard text?
1:29:11 What is the magnitude of variants between companions' codices? - Ibn Masud vs Ubay vs Zaid
1:32:35 Do any of the Mutawatir/qiraat deviate from the Uthmanic rasm?
1:37:53 I sphere significant variability in the manuscripts or manuscript evolution? - Variants on how Mary conceived her child.
1:44:10 Are there grammatical errors in the Uthmanic standardized version of the Quran
1:51:19 Parallels between the Christians, Jews, and the Muslims in the way in which they were writing their respective religious manuscripts.
1:57:57 Can canonical readings be rejected? The case of Tabari rejecting some canonical readings. What makes a reading valid?
2:02:03 What happens when 2 canonical readings contradict each other? Examples of such instances
2:04:15 Is there intertextuality between the Quran and other non-Islamic mythologies? (Borrowing from other non-Muslim Stories)
2:15:11 Final remarks
#MythVision #MarijnvanPutten #Quran

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23 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 1,3 тыс.   
@aliataie101
@aliataie101 2 года назад
20:63 is not a canonized "grammatical error." It is a variant reading that makes perfect grammatical sense both ways. 1. in hāḏani... 2. inna hāḏayni... Both are grammatically correct. The first is a conditional sentence while the second is an emphatic statement. 1. "These two are nothing but sorcerers." 2. "Indeed, these two are sorcerers." Variant reading, yes; but not grammatically incorrect.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 Год назад
Pick up Shady Nasser's two books 📚 and read it
@faisalwho
@faisalwho Год назад
Dr Ali Ataie sir, you are my proverbial man-date. I have so much to ask and learn from you!
@faisalwho
@faisalwho Год назад
@@inquisitivemind007 you have no idea who Dr. Ali Ataie is do you. This man will run circles around nasser in his sleep.
@kamomaru1
@kamomaru1 Год назад
my teacher my mentor even if im older that you i respect you brother
@ef4768
@ef4768 Год назад
@@inquisitivemind007 Dont disrespect The Dr like that 😂 you have no idea. Blind to the truth.
@Mohammad_Qunbos
@Mohammad_Qunbos Год назад
It's an understatement to say that Quran was precisely preserved as a text. Quran is a recorded sound that no writing system can accurately reflect. Try to learn Quran Tilawah and you will understand how super precise it is in recording the lengths, weights, heights and widths of sounds. It even employs a tunic system that doesn't exist in Arabic or in any language in the whole region. For example. The word (faqasat) which means: "then it became hard" needs a rise in the voice after the end of the sound "fa". otherwise it will change the meaning and become: Then it hatched". The recording process rules are so precise to the point where you say: AAAA or AA or AAAAAA. The Ra sound is always heavy. Make a single mistake and you will immediately be corrected.
@ryojs4286
@ryojs4286 Год назад
11:00 Man what a snake, he says in the decade between the Prophet SAW dying and it being standardized it could've been changed when literally the ENTIRE ARABIAN PENNINUSALA of MUSLIMS MEMORIZED IT AND BECAME HAFIZ YOU DON'T GET MISTAKES WITHOUT SOMEONE POINT IT OUT.
@TheOneLogic69
@TheOneLogic69 Год назад
Not precisely preserved. Disagree.
@Mohammad_Qunbos
@Mohammad_Qunbos Год назад
@@TheOneLogic69 Prove it!
@TheOneLogic69
@TheOneLogic69 Год назад
@@Mohammad_Qunbos What does Quran mean to you?
@Mohammad_Qunbos
@Mohammad_Qunbos Год назад
@@TheOneLogic69 The message from our creator
@omarfaruque3932
@omarfaruque3932 2 года назад
My brother Derek! Thanks so much for doing this great interview. I learned a lot and enjoyed it!
@Wise__guy
@Wise__guy Год назад
﴿ إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ ﴾ (Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.)
@adamsulaiman639
@adamsulaiman639 Месяц назад
who are the 'WE?' the 'hafidz?'
@abood_176
@abood_176 18 дней назад
​@@adamsulaiman639 In this verse God almighty refers to himself by saying "WE" as a respect or glorification It is common in Arabic language and many other languages Even a human king use the same "WE" when declaring a new roles for example. I hope you understand now brother 😁
@adamsulaiman639
@adamsulaiman639 18 дней назад
@@abood_176 Quran 70:40 is the human king confused? Peace
@abood_176
@abood_176 18 дней назад
@@adamsulaiman639 what do you mean "is the human king confused"? The last comment I told you that one person can refer to himself as "WE". I didn't say God is a human king. The verse 70:40 "So I swear by the Lord of [all] risings and settings that indeed We are able" What is confusing about it 🤔
@adamsulaiman639
@adamsulaiman639 18 дней назад
@@abood_176 Quote: 'WE as a respect or glorification' in indospeak = penasaran. is that how you 'see' THEM ?
@umair.a
@umair.a Год назад
Jihad means struggle in the way of Allah. Prayer and Zakat (charity) is part of Jihad. May Allah guide you for this incredible research 🙏
@khunza2009
@khunza2009 Год назад
Indeed struggle against self (the ego) to bow down in prayer and give zakat (charity)...thats the REAL Jihad
@elfenomeno5498
@elfenomeno5498 2 года назад
Nice Interview. I am a Muslim and I have no problem with what he said. Please more scholars who are objective as he was.
@danma3548
@danma3548 2 года назад
So you have no priblem with him saying that Muslims can't know wether they have the Quran of Muhammed? All he did was say that Muslims have the Quran of Uthman. Of course you do, it's the only Quran in town 😂 Also, Van Putten is sure the Quran was not preserved: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-iPrLGTtpcBc.html
@he110w0rld8
@he110w0rld8 2 года назад
@@danma3548 There are some problems with his epistemic framework, but he's clearly an intelligent and well-intentioned scholar, unlike the lying, deceiving and deranged Christian missionaries that talk about the matter, - which is a shame because I expect better from Christians!
@yousefazzabi7169
@yousefazzabi7169 2 года назад
@@danma3548 If Christens had a Gospel of one of his disciples do you think they will abandon it so why when Muslims have the Quran of Prophet Muhamed's disciple (Uthman) we should abandon it?
@shaunshaikh8617
@shaunshaikh8617 2 года назад
@@danma3548 Some people will react to academic discourse like pearls thrown to swine. Be sure that your polemics mean very little to most of us. But peace.
@danma3548
@danma3548 2 года назад
@@shaunshaikh8617 the conclusions of academic discourse should mean a lot to you. We don't even need academics, your own hadiths destroy everything you believe in. Your quran is missing the verses of stoning that that was sent down to muhammed as quran
@mohammadshuayb3944
@mohammadshuayb3944 2 года назад
Huge respect for keeping this open to access here on You tube. Thanks.
@xingyimaster1987
@xingyimaster1987 2 года назад
As a muslim i saw nothing problematic here. If anything its an affirmation of what muslims believe The Quran is preserved amd variants exist as per the hadith of the 7 ahruf. Much respect to u both for the interview.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
No it is not preserved as there are about 40 scribal errors that have been passed down. Also what about the canonical readers like that junk reading of Hamzah Zayyat that Ahmad ibn Hanbal couldn't stomach ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oJxqC5aQXgg.html
@xingyimaster1987
@xingyimaster1987 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007. It has been preserved. U heard him say it in this very interview. Preservation is not affected by an extra waw or a kasrah instead of a fathah here and there. All the so called differences are easily reconcilable amd give a richer meaning of the text. Even the examples in this video were very easy to explain.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@xingyimaster1987 richer meaning? Of course you're going to say that. No one apologists is going to admit these scribal errors, no matter how small they are, have entered into the Quran. What about how to read it like Hamzah Zayyat who Ahmad ibn Hanbal couldn't stomach and others say he has poor grammar. How the hell did his reading within 100 years end up being from Allah?
@xingyimaster1987
@xingyimaster1987 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 if he said poor grammar, all that means is he had unfamiliarity with that use of grammar. Heres a challenge show me one direct contradiction between two variants that cant be reconciled and show me a grammatical error in the Quran. U wont be able to. Dont send me your videos. Type one of each here.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@xingyimaster1987 unfamiliarity? You mean Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Tabari, Ibn Mujahid etc Quran teacher forgot to them then that hey you may be unfamiliar with Hamzah’s dialect but it's from Allah do don't talk bad about it or pick holes in it? Explain the contradiction of Lots wife as explained in Tafsir al-Jalalayn ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dejD-qBMhE0.html
@Stardust475
@Stardust475 2 года назад
What an interview will need to re listen! Thank you Derek, can't believe you got him to come on. Great work
@j2shoes288
@j2shoes288 Год назад
Abdullah ibn Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Gabriel, upon him be peace, taught me to recite the Quran in one reading and I requested another. I continued to ask for more until he stopped at seven readings.”
@kml9434
@kml9434 Год назад
Othman Can't change it, because hundreds and thousands memorized it at that time.
@murielpucoe9213
@murielpucoe9213 8 месяцев назад
And the memories were lost with the guys whovdied at war 5:17
@user-id1zo2bl6h
@user-id1zo2bl6h 2 месяца назад
False statement
@da-bloon-master3308
@da-bloon-master3308 Месяц назад
​@@murielpucoe9213islamic wars were one of the most outnumbering wins in history almost no muslim men died in war and the people who didnt go in war ie woman survived and had their memory as well as the men who survived which had their men
@extraTime836
@extraTime836 Год назад
Thank you to Derek and Dr. van Putten! Listening from 6:50 to 10:04, non-muslims scholars (in this case Dr. van Putten) confirm that Quran is preserved from around 650 (shortly after prophet Muhammad pbuh. death) up until now, 2023! Thank you very much for your effort in research!
@obaidulhaque7687
@obaidulhaque7687 Год назад
But , What dr van putten failed mention or brought into research , where is Our Prophet Moh copy of Quran , It was someone hand ,,,,, Nope Utamaan is not the Person who compile it ( Quran)
@OksintasObones
@OksintasObones 7 месяцев назад
It was first written in Syriac and Aramaic then translated gathered in one book and called it Qur'an .. fabricated a new religion based on many previous ones .. mohamed never existed
@hassanb5912
@hassanb5912 Год назад
Was it me or did Marijn debunk everything that Derek threw at him with those super heavy loaded questions. It was like Derek was trying to sway another point of view or narrative but Marijn brought it back to the traditional stance. Good interview. I would love to see you now ask the same loaded questions to someone like Dr Ali Atai who has credibility in all the semetic languages also so the audience can get a fair and balanced opinion from both views.
@MCXM111
@MCXM111 Год назад
What else do you expect from Derek who says that Apuss is his friend and teacher of Islam? 🤦🏻‍♂️🤣
@musamusashi
@musamusashi Год назад
Very interesting, just found your channel and i really dig your work. On the specific issue, we should always keep in mind that the Qur'an is an oral tradition before it is a written one. Keep them coming.
@allahisthegreatest6302
@allahisthegreatest6302 2 года назад
Derek i watched your video about 6 years ago. Really helped me with the music in the backround was a very touching video
@AJansenNL
@AJansenNL 2 года назад
Oooooh, I was hoping you would get him on! Wonderful!
@thetruthseeker5448
@thetruthseeker5448 2 года назад
Yes, this is so wonderful. Opened a big can of worms on the historicity of the Quran, which claimed to be a MIRACLE! But not a miracle as it seems. Remember he used the term STANDARDISED Uthman Quran, and there should NOT be any form of standardisation if it is a miracle and true words of God/Allah. Yes the ''Utman's Standardised Version of Quran'' is well preserved. But what and where were the other texts used to *standardise* the Quran? Sanna Manuscripts are a classic example. Even though the meanings of the two different texts [standard vs Sanaa] seems to be similar in context, an authentic, miraculous, divine, well preserved text should not have such differences or written-overs at all as it is a miracle with divine origins. This is history repeating itself, nothing but!
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
@@thetruthseeker5448 hmmm the can of worms is not so bad then.???
@Kuuzie1
@Kuuzie1 Год назад
At first i underrated mythvision but now the quality of experts brought on board is commendable. No room for apologetics, polemics 😅.
@mashfiquehaque3150
@mashfiquehaque3150 Год назад
It felt like Derek had very tiny moments of 'joy' in this session.
@faiqrahim289
@faiqrahim289 Год назад
😂😂😂 wallahi i too was looking at his face how dumb he gets when he hears what he didn't want to.
@xpressvisa4720
@xpressvisa4720 Год назад
Excellent, very informative presentation. The questions and the answers provided great contents. Thank you for sharing
@Arjan_2
@Arjan_2 2 года назад
It’s a miracle having so many quality shows
@sqorpy86
@sqorpy86 2 года назад
Halfway through the interview, as usual beautiful scholarship, a question I would’ve liked to explore more, as I think I know that Arabic was written without dots which can make huge difference in meaning of words, and then dots came at a later date, and the issue of “dotting” the written Arabic language is a debate and sometimes used as an argument against the transition between oral tradition of reciting and the written codex
@sqorpy86
@sqorpy86 2 года назад
One more thing, grammar, Arabic grammar was set into tangible rules in a proper text later on, how could that have affected the codex since Arabic has many vowels and ways of writing certain words especially in reference to plurals, males and females suffix and even the “mothanah “ when u refer to dual nouns
@thenun1846
@thenun1846 2 года назад
Excellent content yet again Derek! We.....are.......MYTHVISION
@sojernon8689
@sojernon8689 2 года назад
Case in point, the Quran is not perfectly preserved, there is no miracle
@Logia1978
@Logia1978 2 года назад
@@sojernon8689 Have you even heard what he said?
@sojernon8689
@sojernon8689 2 года назад
@@Logia1978 yes, since the canonization the text is well preserved but not the 100% miraculous preservation Muslims claim. Also note he distinguishes the original Quran prior to the canonization and what came about after it. There is no certainty about how well it reflects what Muhammad originally said.
@Logia1978
@Logia1978 2 года назад
@@sojernon8689 The canonisation of the text is 100% preserved.... Every single word of the modern quran can be traced back to first century manuscripts.... The issue is not the text but the reading... The faith part is that the othmanic text represent what Muhammad taught. We can not confirm or dismiss.... After that the othmanic codex is the same and is preserved til today....
@sojernon8689
@sojernon8689 2 года назад
@@Logia1978 I think what you’re trying to say is that the skeletal structure is preserved since the canonization? But the skeletal structure is not the same as the words, that’s why we have contradicting qirat.
@imranbasit8276
@imranbasit8276 Год назад
May God bless you for such an academic podcast, Ameen.❤
@chamwow4075
@chamwow4075 Год назад
Derek it looked like you were overjoyed when you thought that your guest was going to say something negative about the preservation of the Quran, however, he flips it around, reaffirming preservation, then you realize that in your mind you were making a mountain out of a mohill. Very funny the look of disappointment on your face…. haha. La elaha ella Allah, Mohammad rasoul Allah.
@kml9434
@kml9434 Год назад
😂 totally true
@halim3682
@halim3682 Год назад
the answer to 52:44 “Jihad” literally means striving, or doing one's utmost. Within Islam, there are two basic theological understandings of the word: The “Greater Jihad” is the struggle against the lower self - the struggle to purify one's heart, do good, avoid evil and make oneself a better person. so you can call the prayers and zakat Jihad too.
@theastronomer5800
@theastronomer5800 2 года назад
Very true about the book prices! There are a number on early Islam and the Quran that I can't afford but would love to have. This is purely out of interest, my field of study was astrophysics.
@Wotasheeep
@Wotasheeep Год назад
Well, start by reading the quran I guess. A lot of people are giving them away for free. How can we read book reviews without reading and experiencing the book firsthand, am I right? XD
@theastronomer5800
@theastronomer5800 Год назад
@@Wotasheeep Are you assuming that I have not read the Quran? Why would you assume that? I have read the Quran more than once (I have three translations at home, one English-Arabic with commentary by well-known scholar), I have the 9-vol English-Arabic set of Sahih al-Bukhari and have read countless other hadiths online, I have read countless tafsirs by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, al-Jalalayn, Maududi and others, the commentaries by al-Tabari, and I have and read a couple of Sharia books. However, one does not need to read the Quran if one is only interested in things like textual variants or the origin of the stories found in the Quran and would like to find out what scholars have to say on the topic.
@Wotasheeep
@Wotasheeep Год назад
@@theastronomer5800 I am terribly sorry if I offend you, I was just pointing out that you can get the quran for free, because you were talking about book prices. That's all. My additional comment was supposed to be a bit of a joke, hence the smiley face :) But hey, that's good if you've read the quran, even all of those other essential stuff. It can be a reflection for myself as well. Even though I was born and raised az a muslim, in a country with muslim as the major population, I can't even be sure that I know more than you regarding my own religion. Thank you. That is a problem of muslims nowadays. I believe it wasn't a problem back then, during the golden age of islam. I hope we always strive to know the truth and never be misguided. Have a nice day random stranger :)
@theastronomer5800
@theastronomer5800 Год назад
@@Wotasheeep No offence taken! As for your historical comment, I would disagree. I think it's only now that many Muslims are actually finding out about Islam, thanks to all the sources being available online in more and more languages (many writings of Islamic scholars were for example not translated into English until recently) and also to the fact that they can read. This is likely the main reason that so many are leaving the religion. The same was true for Christianity until just a couple of centuries ago. Muslims have also done VERY little textual and source criticism on the Quran, unlike Christians on their Bible, and most of the work in these fields is being done by Western scholars (with strong opposition by Muslims, because they don't like any facts which contradicts their beliefs, as Christians didn't about their Bible). Keep in mind that during the ancient time and Middle Ages most people could not read and write. At best, it is estimated that ~5% of people could read and fewer write (it's the more difficult skill to learn). Also, Islamic sources were not translated into other languages so the people only knew "cultural Islam" and what they were told to do/believe. I'm from Poland myself and for centuries the Christian mass in Poland was in Latin! Which person from a small town, a farmer (most of the population...) could afford to spend many years in school to learn to read their own language, and after that start on another one like Latin or Greek?! So, people had no idea what the Christian texts or scholars said until these were translated into different languages and the average person went to school. As for the Golden Age that you mention, remember that most of the famous people (scholars) from that time were NOT what you would consider devout Muslims. There were highly educated people and hence had many issues with the religious ideas and many were declared heretics, their works censored, and some were in prison. Here is just a short list: Ibn Sina - rejected the Hereafter, accused of being a kafir and an atheist by scholars Al Maarri - rejected the idea that Islam had a monopoly on truth, thought it was simply a matter of geographical accident what faith people adopted, regarded by historians as one of the three foremost atheists in Islamic history Al Razi - heretic, was told that he should be executed for his ideas on religion and prophecy, he was censored for his opinions Al Kindi - disagreed with the Quran, his library (know to all Baghdad) was confiscated and he got 50 lashes, fell into depression Ibn Al Haytham - "father of optics", leader of heretical branch of Shiism, pretended to be insane to avoid execution, was under house arrest for 10 years Al Farabi - argued against prophets, went against teaching of imams, shows that since all religions can present the same types of argument, one cannot tell which religion is right, which are wrong, or even if any are right Thabit Ibn Qurra - Sabian, kafir, studied magic Ibn Rushd - accused of heresy whose books were burn Jabir Ibn Hayyan - was accused of being a magician Ibn Battuata - accused of slandering religious leaders, had at least 6 marriages, lovers and fathered several children on his travels Ibn Bajjah - many Muslim biographers consider him to have been an atheist Al Khatib - a fatwas was issued in which his work on Sufism and philosophy were branded heretical, jailed and died in prison Al Jahiz - a heretic who was told that he should be executed
@budding4708
@budding4708 11 месяцев назад
You seem to be a well read person.I am seventy years old and have gone through the atheistic and agnostic and historical/factual grind.You can never get to the Quran through this route. Quran is an emotion The text speaks to you.I advice you to read the footnotes of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Mohammed Asad translations.My sincere advice...
@QuranicIslam
@QuranicIslam 2 года назад
The problem of the initial question is that it is wrong "was the Qur'an preserved dot for dot?" ... well, there were no dots! So you can't say yes or no.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
There were minimal dots on early manuscripts not none.
@QuranicIslam
@QuranicIslam 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 You get the point. Besides ... there were on _some_ early manuscripts which had those very minimal dots. And that doesn't mean there were any in how they were written down by the Prophet's scribes. The point still stands; the question is wrong.
@OriginalAndroidPhone
@OriginalAndroidPhone 2 года назад
There was no divine SKELETAL text either. The text is there to capture what was spoken to Prophet. So whether that spoken word such as colour is spelt with an English or American spelling doesn't alter the preservation of the oral speech.
@QuranicIslam
@QuranicIslam 2 года назад
@@OriginalAndroidPhone Sorry but it has been proven that all manuscripts (except one) descend from the Uthmanic Archetype. So call that text-type archetype what you will. I call what was even before Uthman, what the Prophet had *his* scribes write down, the Prophetic rasm. And no, I think the rasm is important and part of the revelation.
@Gemparkzz
@Gemparkzz 2 года назад
Great interview.. keep it coming Derek. Good job
@rg6310
@rg6310 2 года назад
Any other documents or tradition that had this much hard dedication to preserve as close to the original as Islam has for centuries? I really want to know
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
Give credit where credit is due. No doubt out of all the religious books in the world 🌎 the Quran is no 1 when it comes to being as it was written 1400 years ago.
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 fair play . But you hate it tho.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@snf321gotti6 the contents of it isn't great. If I get into which part then this debate will go on forever so I'll leave going down that route.
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 ok. Just know that we have views and opinions on those aspects that don't necessarily mean what the outside world attributes to it. .
@TheAslauga
@TheAslauga Год назад
The stutter and the difficulties of both speakers to say the truth is sooo obvious..hahaha..just say it dude..it is very very perfectly PRESERVE! Caught it by suprise ehh?
@marshalsmarketinggrid4158
@marshalsmarketinggrid4158 7 месяцев назад
Finally someone agrees
@scurvy77777
@scurvy77777 2 года назад
Can you "literally make a mistake accidentally"? Isn't a mistake by definition an accident? Can you make a mistake on purpose? So many questions.
@AkramSaheb
@AkramSaheb 2 года назад
That's not the question the question is did they do those mystics.. but if u look at it it's less than 1% 5-10 lines of the Quran.....
@sisi-qw9xs
@sisi-qw9xs Год назад
Readings existed at the time of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace
@lastprophet8338
@lastprophet8338 2 года назад
Still the standard narrative of the Qurans has giant holes in it.
@lastprophet8338
@lastprophet8338 2 года назад
@@TT-hx9nj What evidence again??
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@TT-hx9nj yes there is like your fraudulent canonical reader Ibn Amir ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AwgcuCYqnsU.html
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@ahmarshaikh7427 why are you showing a link to a video that doesn't address the fraudulent single chain of transmission of Ibn Amir's reading?
@kamranharoon7249
@kamranharoon7249 Год назад
Based on my limited understanding, this is the closest historical research and scholarship comes to highlighting the care our forebears took to preserve and transmit the Quran to future generations. I am sure many Muslims learned as much from this discussion as I did. Thank you both and Jazak Allah Khair.
@nazirimam997
@nazirimam997 Год назад
What a great conversation alhamdullilah.
@stevesmith4901
@stevesmith4901 Год назад
This was so so informative and interesting!
@robertherring9277
@robertherring9277 2 года назад
Great show!
@afifkhaja
@afifkhaja 2 года назад
This is awesome! Please interview Ahmad Jallad, Shady Nasser, and Asma Hilali as well. I think you already have a talk with Sean Anthony which I will watch next
@thenun1846
@thenun1846 2 года назад
He already had a discussion with Shady Nasser. But agreed with your other options too!
@merlinx8703
@merlinx8703 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 Aww she doesnt agree with your conclusions
@merlinx8703
@merlinx8703 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9SCECRhQHW0.html Hythem sidky agrees wih her
@merlinx8703
@merlinx8703 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 48 : 51
@merlinx8703
@merlinx8703 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 iam talking about haythem sidky and this video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9SCECRhQHW0.html He mentions Asma Hillali as one of the 3 major works on the Sanaa manuscript He does not say Asma Hillali is wrong and also he agrees with the opinion that the Sanaa reading is a companion reading
@Wotasheeep
@Wotasheeep Год назад
I appreciate the honesty. A good researcher is an honest one. May God guide us all :))
@maherhaobsh1975
@maherhaobsh1975 Год назад
Very scientific and helpful even to the rational religious Muslim . Thank you for the chance to enjoy rare objective dealing with Islam .
@brendandmcmunniii269
@brendandmcmunniii269 2 года назад
If it was preserved, why did it take from the time of writing in the mid 8th century to the 1920s for a final version to win approval ?
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
Go back to j Smith and show him this interview . Please .
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@snf321gotti6 😆
@hmansour89
@hmansour89 2 года назад
@@snf321gotti6 Lol, Well said. It's baffling how some people don't apply any critical thinking on the source of information they get from. Most people just look for confirmation bias
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
@@hmansour89 👍
@stevenv6463
@stevenv6463 2 года назад
What was standardized in 1920s is having a specific verse on a specific page on a specific position.
@PBAmygdala2021
@PBAmygdala2021 2 года назад
Derek: I hope you'll keep doing more crossovers, such as with Andrew from Religion for Breakfast.
@bowrudder899
@bowrudder899 2 года назад
The host is incorrect about Psalm 22:16. He forgets that the Hebrew manuscripts didn't originally have the vowel diacritics.
@kennethwhite8045
@kennethwhite8045 Год назад
I would like to know if the Doctor could produce a chapter like the Quran. Secondly, the Quran is that which is orally recited, not that which is written in a book. For example, I can recite my ABC's perfectly, but I might make a mistake in writing it down.
@adamnasser2995
@adamnasser2995 2 года назад
Great interview! One key thing to understand is that when Marijn talks about the text being preserved from Uthman onwards he means the rasm, which was a skeleton that had no marks for short vowels and hardly any dots to distinguish the many consonants that look alike. That's where the oral recitations come in though these have thousands of variants. Besides the canonical 2000ish and companion 2000ish there were many thousands more read by non canonical readers after Uthman. These are all collected in an academic work called Mu'jam al qira'at by Abd al-Latif al-Khitab. It has about ten volumes coming to 6000 pages total listing variants and their reciters (about 5 variants per page).
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
To add that the regional scribal errors he mentioned are hereditary and have been passed down into today's Quran.
@alanbishopman
@alanbishopman 2 года назад
This is a clear mis-representation of the state of the canonical Qira'at. The first characteristic which ought to be mentioned and emphasized is the overwhelming (even nearly invincible) agreement among them. This is the statistically accurate way to discuss the Qira'at, lest lay people come away with the impression that there are overwhelming differences among the canonical Qira'at, which is false. As Van Putten himself conceded in a tweet from Feb. 10th of this year: @ PhDniX: "And while I agree with Nasser that not all of the canonical readings are completely mutawātirah, this does not mean that *nothing* of it is mutawātirah. The canonical readers agree on variants that have effect on the meaning at least 98% of the time." Any additional variation variation among non-canonical readings would only be relevant from a purely abstract historical perspective, since they pose no theological problem for Muslims (precisely because they're non-canonical). To be clear, I'm not a Muslim, and therefore I'm not trying to trivialize the differences which do exist among the canonical Qira'at. But, if we're going to criticize Islam, we need to be honest. And discussing these Qira'at in a way that minimizes or obscures the fact that they have a 98% level of agreement is dishonest.
@adamnasser2995
@adamnasser2995 2 года назад
I'm doing no such thing trying to obscure the level of agreement. Van Putten says in the video itself that the roughly 2000 are out if c. 70,000 words and so the differences are less than 1% (sic). I assume the readers of my comment will have watched the video. My point rather is to add that there were thousands more disagreements recorded of dozens of non canonical reciters besides the ones he mentioned. That is to be expected when there are so many other reciters and did not all comply with the rasm unlike the canonical ones. It gives a more complete picture of the oral landscape in which variants may have arisen. The scale of variety is relevant to the question of whether variants were ever innovated.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@alanbishopman you clearly don't know anything about your own religion like your so called reading from Allah called Hamzah Zayat whose reading was seen as a piece of junk ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oJxqC5aQXgg.html now all of a sudden is from Allah now is it?
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
At 1.38 .00 seconds he asked the question on scribe error becoming part of the cannon. Interesting answer .
@thetruthseeker5448
@thetruthseeker5448 2 года назад
Amazing! Enjoyed every second of this as much as with other Islamic scholars. Not or never to Islamic apologist 'scholars' yet more to ex Muslims as to why they left Islam, for us to know their personal stories, wisdoms, and argument. Cheers Derek I cant wait you reach 5OK sub, wonder why this channel is so underrated
@dark_attack7896
@dark_attack7896 6 дней назад
Thankyou for Your Reaction, Peace and Happy Always. INDONESIA LOVE YOU.
@stevenv6463
@stevenv6463 2 года назад
Great interview, good to see an expert talk on this. At around 1:16:00 the professor says that Hafs an Aasim is not in the dialect of the prophet. Is Warsh an Nafii closer to his dialect? I believe it does read ى as "e" and drops the pronunciation of hamzas.
@samboy90
@samboy90 2 года назад
The Qur'an was revealed in different dialects. It's basic knowledge.
@stevenv6463
@stevenv6463 2 года назад
@@samboy90 No one is disputing that but the question is about which readings align with which dialects more.
@Ebionarius
@Ebionarius 2 года назад
Van Putten is of the view that the dialect underlying the Qurān was "Old Hijazi". He deals with this in his articles. He is of the view that this dialect had imālah (e), indicated by a yā and alif maqsûrah, and that it lacked hamzah within words (mūmin instead of mu'min). He has also expressed the view that the Hejazi dialect pronunced words such as salāt, hayât and zakāt as salôh, hayôh and zakôh. In that sense, he would probably say that Qira'āt that have preserved such readings are "closer" to the dialect that the prophet and his companions spoke. He is otherwise a secular scholar, and does not consider the Qur'ān preserved in the sense that it is word for word exactly what Muhammad announced. But he does consider the Uthmanic rasm a fairly stable and well preserved manuscript tradition. He calls it "Uthmanic", without saying anything regarding if Uthman actually was a caliph or not etc. But that is his view as far as I have been able to gather. He also seems to hold the view that later Qira'āt are overlaid on the original orthography/rasm of the Qur'ān. That is, they are derivative and secondary to the skeletal text of the Qurān. Not original in the sense that religious Muslim believe. They tell us more about the linguistic sensibilities of the Basran and Kufan scholars in Ummayyad and Abbasid times, than the language of the first generation of Muslims.
@skrm5311
@skrm5311 Год назад
Quran doesn't only say, it's in the tongue of Arabs and clear to understand. Quran also says, "It has clear verse and unambiguous verse, and only the wicked minded will go to unambiguous verse to reject truth". So, unknown and ambiguous words doesn't mean lost pronunciation. Different word other than known dialect certainly doesn't mean lost word for sole reason of all word needs to be in known vocabulary.
@thomaschapple4749
@thomaschapple4749 2 года назад
Interesting stuff but in direct contradiction to the material the likes of Jay Smith is producing. Smith is an evangelical christian I know and has an agenda, but his contention that the written material is very late (a couple of centuries after Mohammed) is presented as academic research... i
@hmansour89
@hmansour89 2 года назад
Like you said , Smith is coming with an agenda. His views are absent from peer reviewed journals and the consensus of scholars of authority
@thomaschapple4749
@thomaschapple4749 2 года назад
But his basic contention about the late date for a written source should be easily refuted if so..
@zeustn9525
@zeustn9525 2 года назад
@@thomaschapple4749 it has been refuted but people choose selectively what suits their agenda. In the 70s maybe he could have gone unchallenged but nowadays with all the early manuscripts that have been carbon dated, those extreme revisionist theses are untenable
@thomaschapple4749
@thomaschapple4749 2 года назад
@@zeustn9525 I look forward to hearing about these reputations fromn academics not Believers
@zeustn9525
@zeustn9525 2 года назад
@@thomaschapple4749 well you just heard one of them. The manuscripts that have been dated lately leave little doubts about the date of the canonisation of the codex. But there are also some very clever studies on the text itself that show there was an archetype then 4 copies from which all the other manuscripts descend... which is exactly what the Islamic tradition reports.
@BenM61
@BenM61 8 месяцев назад
Asma Hilali thinks the Sanaa Palimpsest is actually the work of a student learning to write the Quran. Which means the work is not written by a professional scribe but by a novice who was writing from memory and not copying from a text in front of him. In one instance there is a note that says ‘do not say bismillah’ at the beginning of surah 9. All Muslims know every surah in the Quran starts with bismillah except surah 9. It seems the teacher was correcting the student not to write bismillah at the beginning of that surah. That’s a telltale sign it was not written by a professional scribe.
@asbjrnbergh7172
@asbjrnbergh7172 2 года назад
Another interesting side of this is what happened in the process, when the Quran was written. You can find about a thousand of documentable texts that have been the sources of the Quran, but there is hardly any quotes. Did that mean that those who wrote /compiled the Quran did not have access to written sources? Did they change it by will to fit an Islamic version , or did they just wrote down what they had heard through oral memory?
@zeinedinegasmi1660
@zeinedinegasmi1660 2 года назад
it is named "Quran" because it is _read_ , hence *orally transmitted* written sources follow the process
@asbjrnbergh7172
@asbjrnbergh7172 2 года назад
@@zeinedinegasmi1660 , maybe it was just oral in the beginning, there were about 40 different recitations, around the time the rasm was written down, the archetype that all Qurans of today stem from.
@asbjrnbergh7172
@asbjrnbergh7172 2 года назад
@@zeinedinegasmi1660 Professor Gabriel S. Reynolds: "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."
@deen6008
@deen6008 2 года назад
@@asbjrnbergh7172 Liberals and Atheists go into it thinking "Someone lied". They dont believe in Miracles or these kinds of things. They dont know...that we Muslims trust the 1st...3 generations of Muslims. Those are the best generations ever. Muhmmad pbuh said that the Angels were shy of Uthman. Thats what kind of guy he was. These people were righteous people. They dont lie. But if your liberal like these guys or if your an atheists. You take that out your brain lol. Thats the issue.
@asbjrnbergh7172
@asbjrnbergh7172 2 года назад
@@deen6008 , I build my arguments on an article by professor David Cook, so I don't take this out of my brain. I don't think you will find many scholars on Western universities, that support the idea that the Quran is just based on divine revelations. It clearly shows traces of human influence.
@mohammedshakeel7668
@mohammedshakeel7668 Год назад
Jihad literally means to strive in the way of Allah. For ex, if a man wants to sleep with a woman but stops himself for the sake of Allah, that is jihad. To pray & give charity is also jihad. Contrary to western beliefs the word jihad has nothing to do with holy war, there is a completely different term for that which is only mentioned once in the Quran if Im not mistaken
@conspirisi
@conspirisi 2 года назад
I'm quite a way in to this, but isn't the traditional Muslim explanation reasonable, in that there were variants that were fringe or unusual emerging, so the Uthamani codex endeavour was initiated to address the issue? From the scholarly perspective is there undue attention on dismantling an entirely reasonable explanation that, in and of itself, didn't appeal to any supernatural cause. Forgive me if you've already dealt with this in this discussion.
@dreamflier
@dreamflier 4 месяца назад
Great interview amd conversations here. Derek is a great host with the right interjections here and there.
@JohnSmith-vh5mc
@JohnSmith-vh5mc 2 года назад
Can Mr. van Putten produce a letter by letter RASM comparision of the codes(mushaf) of Uthman and todays Hafs stripped down to RASM? Everyone would love to see such comparision to be at ease about the preservation issue.
@Antikalifen
@Antikalifen 2 года назад
Its really wonderful that you interview neutral critical scolars and not those biased Christian apologists or those activists who demonizing Islam making it look like something completely different in history of religions
@natalikronwald6177
@natalikronwald6177 2 года назад
So true! As an ex-convert to Islam who has studied both Islamic studies (secular) and Islamic divinity/theology (religious) (two seperate study subjects at university in the country I’m living) I really appreciate critical scholarship and I’m so thrilled that Derek gives actual scholars a platform. I’ve been so frustrated lately to see either Christian or Muslim apologists mostly occupying the field. Their fights always remind me of the Spider man memes where two spider mans are pointing their fingers at each other lol
@natalikronwald6177
@natalikronwald6177 2 года назад
@@ahmarshaikh7427 how often do you want to keep spamming that @ me still ? lol (I don’t mean to be an ass but I just wondered)
@natalikronwald6177
@natalikronwald6177 2 года назад
@@ahmarshaikh7427 no worries! I’m sure you meant well.
@trinitymatrix9719
@trinitymatrix9719 2 года назад
This scholar is very isl am biased and not very useful for truthful learning.
@trinitymatrix9719
@trinitymatrix9719 2 года назад
@@ahmarshaikh7427 Please go and listen to the best scholars on the field - Dr. Shady Nasser for example
@alanbishopman
@alanbishopman 2 года назад
I'm not a Muslim, so I won't defend the preservation or divinity of the Quran. But, I do know BS when I see it, and Van Putten's reasoning (in many cases) is patently circular. Without delving into the finer details of the Arabic Qira'at, just a few examples will suffice: 1. The differences in the readings of Q 5 : 6 (wipe vs. wash the feet) reflect "sectarian" differences. Van Putten says that if the written text was originally ambiguous, then it must have been open to interpretation by different sects. And if different sects uphold different interpretations of the text (which they do), then that must mean that these are nothing more than different interpretations of what was undoubtedly an originally ambiguous text. 2. The differences in the vocalization of Q 21 : 112 and Q 43 : 24 (say vs. said) reflect the trivial choices of the eponymous readers. Van Putten says that the eponymous readers (Hafs etc.) were working from an originally ambiguous text, and they had to apply their own individual guesswork to make sense of it. And if the Qira'at differ from one another in seemingly trivial ways (and they do), then that must mean that the original text was susceptible to multiple, independent, and ultimately trivial readings (i.e. the text itself was originally ambiguous). In short, Van Putten sees the state of the Qira'at (as we know it today) as evidence of the ambiguity of the original text, but that very same ambiguity is the primary, unproven assumption underlying Van Putten's analysis of the state of the Qira'at, in the first place. Again, since I'm not a Muslim, I won't say that this automatically vindicates the traditional Islamic understanding of these issues. Far from it. But, let's be honest: if anyone else had made this argument (i.e. anyone without a PhD) he would have been laughed out of the room immediately.
@rg6310
@rg6310 2 года назад
@@ahmarshaikh7427 the Quran was preserved through people’s hard dedication and devotion not a magical unexplainable miracle but still very impressive
@lordsneed9418
@lordsneed9418 2 года назад
@@ahmarshaikh7427 that academic said that the quran is not 100% preserved. He agrees that human errors , variations and corruptions were introduced after muhammad's time. this is obviously difficult for muslims who think that islam is true because quran 15:9 says that allah will preserve/protect the quran, and if a supposedly perfectly infallible being is saying he will preserve something, you'd expect it to be preserved perfectly and infallibly. You would not expect the text to be preserved fallibly and almost perfectly , like how humans would preserve/protect a text.
@lordsneed9418
@lordsneed9418 2 года назад
@@ahmarshaikh7427 If you believe that the quran has been perfectly preserved then you should be able to answer this question . When the quran 17:102 quotes what moses said to pharoah, did moses say "you have already known that none has sent down these signs except the lord of the heavens and the earth " or did moses say " I have already known that none has sent down these signs except the lord of the heavens and the earth" according to the "canonical" reading of al-Kisāʾī , moses said "I have already known", but the other "canonical" readings say that moses said "you have already known". Which is it? Either one thing could have been said on that occasion by moses or another, not both. Whichever quote is correct, the other must be wrong because he only could have said one of them on that occasion. There are at least 14 other examples in the quran of different "canonical" readings directly contradicting each other by quoting characters saying different things on the same occasion. You can't do the normal cope of claiming that it's all just like malik/maalik because these are quotes in the quran of what characters said on particular occasions , so only one version of what he said could be true and match what that character actually said on that occasion.
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
@@lordsneed9418 yes this is a good point . Both readings are seen as true and that causes a some what lost in translation effect . In the original Arabic it's not an issue as both words are same but when read can be read or understood differently so some ambiguity is inherent but this has no theological problem . The question is did he say it I know or you know ...still stands and that's a matter of interpretation and translation .
@alanbishopman
@alanbishopman 2 года назад
@@lordsneed9418 al-Kisa'i's reading in Q 17 : 102 is not a contradiction. Just think about it logically. The Quran is (according to the traditional theological definition) the verbatim speech of God only - not the verbatim speech of anyone else. In other words, the Quran does not purport to be the verbatim speech of Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus etc. Indeed, this should be obvious to anyone who reads the Quran, if for no other reason than that the Quran is in Arabic, and none of these individuals (by the Muslims' own admission) spoke Arabic during their lifetimes! The Quran's claim is simply that God speaks and that God tells the story. Ostensibly, we can trust God to re-tell the story accurately, but it's important to note that (whether or not you're a Muslim) God isn't under any obligation to report these stories in a comprehensive, "courtroom transcript-style" fashion. Such a requirement would certainly clash with the Islamic doctrine of the eloquence of the Quran (i.e. how could Pharoah, for example, be as eloquent as God? Is God forced to constrain his own eloquence in order to produce a wooden, literal, word-for-word translation of exactly what Pharoah said?) No. The Quran, from the Muslim perspective at least, is beyond human speech (or as Seyyed Hosein Nasr once put it "the ippsissima vox of God, in the Quran, shattered the Arabic language, and transformed it..."). Thus, precisely how this should be resolved is unimportant to me, since I'm not a Muslim. But I can at least recognize that, for a Muslim, the Quran may encompass any number of specific solutions (e.g. obviously one could say that God intended to express the meaning of both, without actually attributing either one to Moses. Or we might apply modal logic, such that there is a possible world where Moses said "I know" and a possible world in which he said "you know"). The point is: if we read the Quran the way it's meant to be read, then there is no contradiction.
@PlanetDeLaTourette
@PlanetDeLaTourette 2 года назад
51:30 The first sentence marked in red can also be found in the text that Osama B.L. used as legitimisation (Sword verse, or something). If we see those two versions as interchangeable and it's imposed on that verse, then it's kinda weird.
@mogbaba
@mogbaba Год назад
07:25 What's the documentation for believing that the current Quran is actually the Uthman version? Documenting s dialuge after 200 years is difficult, or impossible if you have not recorded by modern devices. but documenting a book is fairly easy. I know for a fact that none of the Uthmanic Qurans are found. So what is the documentation for an academic researcher?
@trinitymatrix9719
@trinitymatrix9719 2 года назад
Please also go and have an interview with Dr. Shady Nasser who also is an expert on the topic.
@adamnasser2995
@adamnasser2995 2 года назад
Check out Derek's recent videos and you'll have a nice surprise :)
@knowledge_lantern
@knowledge_lantern 2 года назад
did you see the first part Trinity he said quran is preserved all of it and the bible doesnt even come close its laughable xd xd xd
@trinitymatrix9719
@trinitymatrix9719 2 года назад
@@knowledge_lantern allah was nowhere near to preserve anything as he clearly promised us and challenged us in the qran, unfortunately ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-F8l7GU-tvkw.html
@trinitymatrix9719
@trinitymatrix9719 2 года назад
@@knowledge_lantern allah said - we easily busted 😂 🤦‍♂
@trinitymatrix9719
@trinitymatrix9719 2 года назад
@@knowledge_lantern Even if quran was preserved, it would be preserved with countless of contradictions, errors and scientific failures. So ur argument is pretty much pointless. Did u know there are 30+ different arabic versions of q0ran? Allah lost count on how many different qurans he have 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pWCSLmgOhdE.html
@doghun4416
@doghun4416 2 года назад
Salam / Peace. In the third example for lower text and modern text comparison (example from surah tawba), jihad means struggle in the way of Allah swt. It's a wide concept. You can consider fighting, praying, giving alms, fighting against evil temptations as parts of the Jihad concept. So praying and giving zakat can be considered under the concept of Jihad. When you look at the second example (surah munafiqun) where you see "they increased their disbelief", this expression is actually mentioned in somewhere else in the Quran in a similar way (3:90 and 4:137). So, I guess at that point the scribe of Sana'a manuscript was probably confused so that he mixed up the order of verses in a sense. Lastly, when you guys talk about the preservation you mentioned that Quran says "it will be preserved" and so muslims are doing their best to memorize it and protect it and because this is a self-fulfilling prophecy.... well actually it's not self-fulfilling when you understand how Allah swt do things from the Islamic point of view. Without his "permission" or "approval" or "confirmation" nothing actually "happens". If we succeed in doing something, it is actually because He let us do that. Allah (swt) knows best.
@theastronomer5800
@theastronomer5800 2 года назад
Hmm, that's an interesting point by Dr. van Putten - from what I read/heard, I was read to believe that the language used in the Quran is that of northern Arabia, not the Hejaz region (eg: Dr. al-Jallad, who studies epigraphy). Can anyone shed some light/references on this topic?
@conservativemuslim
@conservativemuslim Год назад
What you mentioned is wrong according to Islamic tradition- The dialect of Quran is Hijazi to be more specific Qurashi. Uthmaan, may Allah be pleased with him, said to the Companions when they wrote the Mus-haf (physical copy of the Quran), “If you differ with Zayd ibn Thabit on the Arabic of the Quran, then write it in the tongue of Quraysh, as the Quran was revealed in their tongue.” [Al-Bukhaari and others]
@bocchusmorocco
@bocchusmorocco 12 дней назад
Your channel is amazing Derek, thanks for the enlightenment. Cheers from Morocco
@IslamicSchool-at-Al-HudaMosque
@IslamicSchool-at-Al-HudaMosque Год назад
Istighfar (Astaghfirullah) is the road to happiness and relief. Start chanting it whenever you are distressed, and it will, insha Allah, lift you out of your anxiety, place you in a tranquil position
@siaboonleong
@siaboonleong 2 года назад
Conclusion is that the Qur'an is not perfectly preserved according to normal definition
@amanpalestina9664
@amanpalestina9664 Год назад
What is YOUR Definition of *PERFECTLY PRESERVED* then, to CONCLUDE
@siaboonleong
@siaboonleong Год назад
@@amanpalestina9664 I guess it will be what they claim word for word letter for letter ? Basically it is the same as it was originally spoken. But that will be hard to prove .
@amanpalestina9664
@amanpalestina9664 Год назад
@@siaboonleong : Ya its true. Chinese Paper Technology wasn't available yet until the 8th Century. Scrolls and Parchment wont be able to carry through the Semitic Lingua-Pranka as advance as the Chinese Civilization, at large. Abjad (Semitic Alphabet) were at its infancy burdened with NO VOWEL in any Semitic Writing, Hebrew, Aramaic, Hijazi etc. Most importantly Muhammad himself is The Unlettered Prophet. The ONLY logical way is through the *Verbal Transmission* which is guarded by the 7-Hafs, 10-Qiraat, Wash and Tajweed etc. Only during the Caliph Uthman time the Writing System were developed properly with the introduction of the Indian Numerical System. This video explained it well and DR Marijn van Putten expressed it (Al-Quran) as *THE MOST STABLE* There is NO such thing any available Perfectly Preserved original. Guesses has to be made on the Egyptian Heliograph and Babylonian Writing and NOBODY knows how it sounds like. Nobody knows what language Moses 1,200+BCE speak and the earliest Septuagint is in the 1st Century and it was in Greek. Nobody knows how earliest Bible ended up in Greek Kone too and there is none in Aramaic available. The oldest Yalur Vedas is 2nd BCE and nobody knows the earliest BOB.
@mohammedabdulla4028
@mohammedabdulla4028 Год назад
This is a discussion of history and facts that can be respected by all Muslims. This discussion bear no resemblance to the hate speech and Islamophobia. Most of what the professor is saying is well understood by many educated Muslims. However, it is refreshing yo hear this discussion among Westerners instead of the traditional fear mongering against Islam.
@andrewcole4843
@andrewcole4843 Год назад
Where is the 650AD version Marijn is checking against? And the 4 sent out? I thought first non variant was 8th or 9th century?
@sdscipio
@sdscipio 2 года назад
Mythvision brings the best Religious content on RU-vid. Congratulations for taking on Islam
@luisaah5707
@luisaah5707 2 года назад
Hamad abdel Samad is great as well. If you could invite him to the show that would be great.
@ahmedamir4240
@ahmedamir4240 2 года назад
Do you compare a distinguisged scholar in Leiden to an ignorant and no scholar !!!!!
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@ahmedamir4240 🤣 I agree with you on that.
@takiyaazrin7562
@takiyaazrin7562 2 года назад
@@ahmedamir4240 Ignorant Sheikhs wanted to kill Hamed
@ahmedamir4240
@ahmedamir4240 2 года назад
@@takiyaazrin7562 You said ignorant, so they can be no sheiks people like this guy his arguments shall be refuted and if he is Murtad or renegade God only has the authority to punish him in the hereafter unless he did not launch a war or violent actions against believers
@saifeldeenobeidi4628
@saifeldeenobeidi4628 4 месяца назад
Can I post this video on my tiktok?
@elliot7205
@elliot7205 Год назад
Something is missing here. You will note when uthman heard of differences he and the committee went back to the source and made a comparison with the source instead of keeping the source aside and making a comparison of the two that are differing.
@whootoo1117
@whootoo1117 2 года назад
1- I'm watching almost 30 minutes now and he didn't mention the oral preservation of the quran. 2- He didn't tell that quran is the primary source of islam, while hadith is secondary and all of quran is mutawatir or with the process of multiple different people who narrated or taught the same thing in 100% level. Both Derek and the guy Marijn seem to try hard to get a point to criticize the preservation but they failed. Quran is different than bible and right now, there are at least 20 million people who know orally by heart. These people are called Hufaz in plural and Hafiz in singular and they even live in your city and pray in your local mosque. Text and writing preservation in quran is secondary to this type of oral preservation. If you produce a new wrong text and call it quran, no one will take you serious, because most of the people know by hear and mistakes will be apparent when read. An extraordinary book.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
All the Quran is mutawatir 😆 is that why you don't know is basmalah is verse no 1 of Surah Fatiha or not ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9vFLNWGNDxE.html
@tacom0nsta658
@tacom0nsta658 2 года назад
He's a historian, he's not interested in tradition, and not interested in our claims. That's fine though.
@Sixtra
@Sixtra 2 года назад
Derek you are the man! Don’t mean it as some sort of ass kissing 😂 but you really manage to bring all of the major academics to your channel. Great stuff dude 🤓👌
@reyazahmadnaik9159
@reyazahmadnaik9159 7 месяцев назад
In quran One word is used more than 700 times. Jala, ج ع ل Meaning to make but physical material not involved Example To make any policey
@hamza1947
@hamza1947 Год назад
Great talk man. I wish you would get Ali Ataie on next....
@BashirAdebauo-fc3ln
@BashirAdebauo-fc3ln Год назад
Derek need to apologize about his view and what he said in the past about Quran prior to this interview Before this interview , he said he was of the view that Quran is like Bible
@feliksj.kwiatkowski2935
@feliksj.kwiatkowski2935 2 года назад
On what basis does the interviewee assert there was a complete Koran in existence at about 650 AD? Where is there any complete manuscript from that era?
@adamnasser2995
@adamnasser2995 2 года назад
He said we have basically the complete Quran (or to be specific, the rasm which didn't have vowels and sparse dotting to tell various consonants apart though it could be easily guessed usually) when you put all the 1st century fragments together. Much or most verses are covered by more than one 1st century fragment. Some "fragments" cover multiple surahs. But bare in mind the rasm isn't enough to preserve they meaning on its own and the readings of it did have disagreements.
@tomasmatias4109
@tomasmatias4109 2 года назад
@@adamnasser2995 then you don't have the complete Quran in the first century.
@iliasalmaudi8365
@iliasalmaudi8365 2 года назад
@@tomasmatias4109 we absolutely do. The entirety of thr Quran is found in 1st century manuscripts with a few holes in some folios it leads scholars to say around 95-99% but those are natural deteriorations that are easily supplemented with other manuscripts close in age. Refer to Dr Hythem Sidky's interview on blogging theology.
@tomasmatias4109
@tomasmatias4109 2 года назад
@@iliasalmaudi8365 suit yourself. If that is what you believe, that is what you believe.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
Here is an analogy. If you have a human body where one arm is in one museum, another is in another museum and the body in the 3rd. Do we have a complete body? Answer is yes. Are they in one place? Answer is no they are spread out.
@Alias_Reign
@Alias_Reign Год назад
The interesting things with the Sanaa texts is it relates to sahih hadeeths where the prophet mentioned that gibrail taught him to recite in different ways. The Islamic scholars say this was due to some words having different meanings in different dialects. For example in the Qurashi dialect a word meant a certain thing but in the Yemeni dialect that word meant something different. The Arabs wasn't a cohesive people before Islam, and even today different words have different meanings in North Africa vs Saudi Arabia and this is after standardisation of the Arabic language.
@Phyziacom
@Phyziacom 2 месяца назад
Excellent and Genuine academic work! far from far-fetching or bias. I love it
@misswarda78
@misswarda78 2 года назад
Woop Woop 🙌 You have nailed it. 🎉
@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo
@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo 2 года назад
Nailing is a different religion.
@juadwhite1391
@juadwhite1391 2 года назад
@Vicky Wells May you give me your take on this interview Vicky?, do you think that this scholar supports your theory regarding Qur'an having glaring preservation issues? (With my infinite respect to you).😊
@misswarda78
@misswarda78 2 года назад
@@juadwhite1391 Hi Juad. Marijn makes it very clear that the Uthman Quran IS well preserved however the BIG issue (that Marijn conceded) is that we have ZERO source materials from the first 70 years of Islam (before the creation of Uthman Quran) and this interrupts our knowledge of what was ‘preserved’ before this. We know lots of Islamic material was burned and destroyed to create the Uthman Quran and so this is for me the ‘glaring problem’ in our ability to be confident in the Quran. (Although the Quran is also supported by the oral transmission which creates additional issues)
@zeustn9525
@zeustn9525 2 года назад
@@misswarda78 just to clarify, if the canon is fixed in 650 then the "missing" documents period covers 40 years from the start of the prophetic ministry or 20 from the prophet's death. Also, we do not "know" that the alternative codices have been all burned. One tradition claims so but the Sanaa palimpsest clears contradicts it. And in anyway it's impossible to prove it because it implies the absence of documents to prove it!!
@thetruthseeker5448
@thetruthseeker5448 2 года назад
I also beg the question, why on earth many Quranic materials were destroyed [which is a historical fact] to make way to ''create'' Uthman's Quran to be the foundation of the standardised version less than a century between Mohamed's preaching and creation of Utman's Quran. What were the destroyed material and why? Furthermore an existence of a book called Quran does not qualify to claim it is the words God. On the same note what qualifies Mohamed or any other to be ''a'' prophet of God.
@theastronomer5800
@theastronomer5800 2 года назад
The preservation is different because of the very different ways in which the religions developed. Christianity for a long time was a fringe religion, while Islam conquered and expanded very quickly.
@sojernon8689
@sojernon8689 2 года назад
Case in point, the Quran is not perfectly preserved, there is no miracle
@PixelogistFacts
@PixelogistFacts Год назад
@@sojernon8689 Not according to the academic research from professor Marijn Van Putten. Unlike you, he doing a proper research on the Quran. While you graduate from Whatsapp University.
@ridhuan2335
@ridhuan2335 Год назад
True, usually religion develop slowly with ketchup added here and there like christianity. Theres one god at the start, then after some multiple meeting, it become 3 fully god person. Islam is an exception. its still strong and doesnt seems to die out.
@theastronomer5800
@theastronomer5800 Год назад
@@ridhuan2335 You are forgetting that fact that Islam is an Abrahamic faith, and the Jewish religion emerged from a polytheistic world of the region, with Yahweh being one of the gods worshiped and eventually became the only god worshiped by the Israelites (the Bible speaks of not worshiping those "other" gods). Also, you speak of 3 persons in Christianity, but one of them is the holy spirit which the Quran also speaks of. As for Islam dying out, that goes against the evidence. If you look at many Islamic countries the people are fed up with this backwards ideology. In Iran, a 99% Muslim country, only about 40% of people believe in a god (less for the younger population). As people become more educated about their sources, history, science, etc, they tend to leave these ancient superstitions behind.
@theawesomeman2316
@theawesomeman2316 Год назад
​@@theastronomer5800You take Iran as an example 😂😂😂. Iran is a majority Shia country and Shia people go against many teachings of Islam. There is a reason why there is a clear distinction between Shia and Sunni Muslims because Shia people have a lot of different beliefs than Sunni's. You can't look at one country failing due to politics and say that Islam as a religion is dying. Iran is such a small percentage of "muslims" that their downfall is of no significance to Islam as a whole.
@MohammadArifRahim
@MohammadArifRahim Год назад
Please have the book in e-book format.
@eminozy
@eminozy Год назад
❤thank you. Humbled. Affirmed. Alhamdulillah.
@pradeenkrishnag2368
@pradeenkrishnag2368 2 года назад
Try to bring historian Tom Holland in the next podcast..
@osamaanees8406
@osamaanees8406 Год назад
Two things can be true at the same time. 1:03:00. If you speak in another language you can translate a sentence into English but it wont convey the same meaning. e.g I can speak Urdu and say "Wo Udr hai". If I translate it into English it would be "He is there" or "She is there" or "It is there". The "Wo" is gender neutral. All of them can be true. Hazrat Musa (PBUH) did not speak Arabic. He might have spoken in a way where it meant both things. So put two and two together.
@motiongraphics4280
@motiongraphics4280 2 года назад
Canadian linguist and Middle Easterner Robert Kerr sheds new light on the origins of Islam. According to his research, the alphabet used in the oldest known manuscripts of the Quran shows rather than the founding book of Islam appeared in the area currently covered by Jordan, Syria and Iraq and not in Mecca or Medina. Research Phd Robert Martin Kerr The Department of Archaeology & Classical Studiesis pleased to present a lecture by: Dr. Robert Kerr The historical origins of Islam: Some archaeological and linguistic remarks ”
@futurecrunk
@futurecrunk 2 года назад
This was fantastic.
@thetruthseeker5448
@thetruthseeker5448 2 года назад
I have a question, why on earth many Quranic materials were destroyed [which is a historical fact] to make way to ''create'' Uthman's Quran to be the foundation of the standardised version less than a century between Mohamed's preaching and creation of Utman's Quran. *What were the destroyed material and why* Furthermore an existence of a book called Quran or similar does not qualify to claim it is the words God. On the same note what qualifies Mohamed or any other to be ''a'' prophet of God.
@omarelkadi2297
@omarelkadi2297 2 года назад
Considering the prophet part, I am a born Muslim, so I am pretty much lucky not needing to ask this question. However, recently I started trying to take the others points of view, and I have an opinion in this if you are believing in an Abrahamic religion (Christianity and Judaism), which could be a good start. To be the prophet of god, your delivered message should have at least the core messages of GOD, and luckily there is a clear statement of what it is in the TORAH, especially for non-jews (Gentiles). To be a righteous gentile and have place in the kingdom to come, according to the Jews and TORAH, you have to follow to the 7 laws of Noah, which to a great extent only Muslims (in addition to the Jews) are following the 7 laws, which if you asked any knowledgeable Jew or rabbi (such as Tovia Singer) of the Islamic laws, he will definitely tell you that Muslims are righteous Gentiles (in comparison he will arise very strong doubts against Christians, just to show that it is not that easy this to occur in coincidence even in the type of Religions "Abrahim Religions I mean"). By the way, almost all Muslims do not know the 7 laws of Noah (at least from Islam) but they are following them as they are among the laws of Islam. So because of Mohamed, 1.8 billion are currently righteous gentiles (according to Judaism) i.e. Mohamed is not just a messenger of God, but probably a successful Messenger. I hope this is a good start for you (The argument validity is only limited to those already believing in Abrahamic Religion). Good Luck in finding the truth
@omarelkadi2297
@omarelkadi2297 2 года назад
Considering the other point, I will just copy a response to other commenter that might be helpful "good luck and I hope you find the truth, and a better knowledgeable replier than me :D": Their is a difference between Koran and Mus'haf; I believe you mean the Mus'haf. According to Islam (at least my understanding about it) Koran by its nature is an oral book of gods word transmitted by the angel Gebril to Mohamed who taught it to his early followers, where all Muslims have to memorize parts of it as it is used in as part of their daily prayers (not specific parts; thus, not all use the same part of the Quran in their prayers) and many of the early companions memorize it a word by word (and this tradition still exists till now, many Muslims actually memorize it all word to word by the age of 10), which is the main form of its preservation (it is almost impossible for so many Muslims to forget or replace the same word; unless it is by a divine well) ; So, by definition it doesn't make sense asking about a physical evidence of an oral book. However, the Mus'haf, which is the written book, has been written early after the death of Mohamed after many of the companions died in an early wars based on the collections the memorization of the companions and also written documents as some of the companions were will educated and can write; the Mus'haf and Quran are different entities for Muslims. We might even not have a Mus'haf (a written document) if these wars never occurred. As Muslims expanded and other non-arab (or arab with other dilactate) joined Islam some written copies of the Mus'haf has been created with some mistakes (probably similar to those discovered in Sanaa manuscript), which although non-significant to non-muslims, is very important to Muslims, and probably Usman feared that the Quran (the oral book) might be affected by such variants similar to what happened to the Torah, so he burnt these variants of the Mus'haf, and kept a single copy will revised based on the oral book. I think parts of manuscript containing the written words of the Quran and books referring to the wording of Qurans exist till now. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%27haf#:~:text=The%20word%20mu%E1%B9%A3%E1%B8%A5af%20is%20meant,or%20book%2C%20in%20many%20verses
@thetruthseeker5448
@thetruthseeker5448 2 года назад
@@omarelkadi2297 Whether you are a Muslim or there are more than 1.8 billion people believing in Islam does not make Quran is true. To bring Judaism and Christianity to make a comparison and to claim Islam is better also does not make Quran is the truth either. You are contradicting yourself, Christianity / Bible has the BIGGEST following amongst the humanity for millennia to this day. And that does not make Bible is the truth.
@thetruthseeker5448
@thetruthseeker5448 2 года назад
@@omarelkadi2297 And again your explanation on the text does not hold any water at all. As I mentioned in my comment what you are following is Uthman's *STANDARDISED* version of the Quran, The STANDARDISED version was created by *destroying* other written texts and it is a historical FACT! And this happened in a very short period of time, and that itself create more confusion. How could a divine miracle, the purest, the best could and the most truthful divine revaluation [Quran] could have so many texts within a very short period of time [I am not talking about recitations but only written texts] Did God/Allah failed miserably to make it clear that there would be only ONE written text from the beginning than creating confusions amongst mankind for nearly 2 millennia. Finally who is Uthman to create and standardise the Quran, Mohamed supposed to be the messenger. Didn't God/Allah know Mohamed could not write, and leave it to another person/s. How could they be divine miracles.
@omarelkadi2297
@omarelkadi2297 2 года назад
@@thetruthseeker5448 I am sorry if my argument is not clear and allow me to further elaborate: this argument is addressed towards the your question "what qualifies Mohamed or any other to be ''a'' prophet of God", and it is NOT "that there is too many Muslims; then it is probably the right religion". My argument is that because of Mohamed, 1.8 billion Muslims become qualified as a righteous gentiles and has a chance in the world to come based on the Jewish faith by following a very specified laws written thousands of year before Mohamed and I added Christians are not qualified according to the same faith (which is very surprising as Jesus was a Jew and preached mainly to the Jews) as a comparison just to elaborate that it is less likely to be by chance (there larger number actually intended to support the argument). I hope the argument is more clear now, of course it is not the argument that will cause a paradigm shit, but I hope it can be a start to your path in searching for the right religion.
@saeedhamam8297
@saeedhamam8297 2 года назад
One more thing what the "scholar" forgot to mention is why such variations existed in the first place? the simple fact that was narrated by the tradition (hadith) was to accommodate dialects of different tribes, though the traditional view (opinion not hadith) was that Arabic is a static language with different dialects from the dawn of history, modern historians found that modern Arabic came into existence a mere century before the prophet peace and blessing of God upon him (actually Quran created and unified Arabic grammar), this meant that at the time of the prophet the difference between tribes scattered of more than 3 million km² was more than a mere dialect, so the Quran had to accommodate this because of two reasons the first is the dissemination of Quran among the tribes, the second is the reluctance of these tribes to use Quraish's ( the prophet tribe) "dialect" out of tribal pride. What Othman had codified was Quraish "dialect" and that was clearly mentioned, all of that was missed by the "scholar".
@AJansenNL
@AJansenNL 2 года назад
Did you watch the whole video? Because he clearly mentioned all those things.
@saeedhamam8297
@saeedhamam8297 2 года назад
@@AJansenNL I watched until the supposed contradiction of "they said two magics" vs. "they said two magicians" ignoring the simple fact that a multitude of people do say multiple things at the same time, refusing this simple fact of life gave me indication I should be watching something less biased.
@saeedhamam8297
@saeedhamam8297 2 года назад
@@AJansenNL Did he mentioned modern historians' opinions on the state of the Arabic language at the revelation time, he did not, while it is the only reason keraat existed in the first place, this is one thing he missed.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
Whatever you know he knows and he knows a lot more that you don't.
@saeedhamam8297
@saeedhamam8297 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 Of course he knows and that is my problem with him he does not convey that knowledge to the audience, he is telling half truths, and in some cases he pretends to miss basic logic when that is convenient for him, that is my problem with him.
@QwertyKeyboarduk
@QwertyKeyboarduk Год назад
Has Dr Ali Atai been on this chanel ? Just came across this discussion and loved it. Perhaps having an Islamic academic on would help elaborate on discussions like these.
@Kuuzie1
@Kuuzie1 Год назад
Do you mean a Muslim scholar? Otherwise, this guest is an Islamic scholar (an expert, non-muslim scholar in Islamic studies).
@a12ja34r
@a12ja34r 5 месяцев назад
@@Kuuzie1I mean he literally brings ex Muslims to talk about Islam? And Ali ataie although is biased towards Islam will bring evidence he won’t just speak out of his ass😂😂
@elliot7205
@elliot7205 Год назад
Why does van putten doubt the standardisation of the uthmanic text?
@RstesotTv
@RstesotTv 2 года назад
The 3rd Caliph that burned all the original versions? The oldest texts are in the 700-800-900 yrs... Today there are 30 versions...
@snf321gotti6
@snf321gotti6 2 года назад
There are 30 versions of the j Smith theory ...
@2012stvn
@2012stvn 2 года назад
so which koran was revealed to mohamed and how do muslims know?
@merlinx8703
@merlinx8703 2 года назад
He says that all the variants go back to a parent varient And muslims do believe that 7 recitations were revealed
@2012stvn
@2012stvn 2 года назад
@@merlinx8703 so which one is with alla?
@merlinx8703
@merlinx8703 2 года назад
@@2012stvn Muslim believe in an Umm Kitab all revelation stems from there from there came the Torah, the Psalms, the Ingeel and the Quran and that would include the different readings All of them are included in the Umm Kitab
@2012stvn
@2012stvn 2 года назад
@@merlinx8703 so the Umm Kitab, is on the eternal tablets ?
@merlinx8703
@merlinx8703 2 года назад
@@2012stvn I am not sure The Umm Kitab may be part of the Tablet or it may be the tablet By tablet you mean Loh e Mahfooz?
@Ha-Elyon
@Ha-Elyon 9 месяцев назад
Meanwhile the companions had different amount of surahs
@lordsneed9418
@lordsneed9418 2 года назад
Why does Marijn say that there are no inherited scribal errors when the scribal errors copying in the uthmanic mushafs lead to different uthmanic archetypes which form a stemma structure and these differences in the uthmanic mushafs lead to differences in between different "canonical" readings ?
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
He means after the regional codices there are none that are hereditary. If you want to INCLUDE the 4 Uthmanic master copies then he will say yes.
@thepoorsultan5112
@thepoorsultan5112 2 года назад
He is inconsistent and he is clearly wrong!!! Marijn believes that the medinian codex is the main codex out of which others are copied and scribal mistakes made Muslim traditions say that Uthman made different codices and they had differences and these are deliberately left and not scribal mistakes.
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@thepoorsultan5112 I think what Marijn was trying to say is apart from the scribal mistakes in the Uthmanic codices there are no other scribal mistakes that have been passed down into today's Quran which is true.
@thepoorsultan5112
@thepoorsultan5112 2 года назад
@@inquisitivemind007 The differences between Uthmanic codices are not scribal errors Uthman deliberately left out these differences because they were part of the 7 ahruf We can even find these differences in sana palimpsest lower text Marijn believes that the medinan codex is the codex made by uthman and all other comes from it Quran 5:53 in medinan codex we find يقول الذين آمنو In Iraq we find و يقول الذين آمنو So according to Putten this (و) should be a scribal error Guess what? We find (و يقول) in sanaa palimpsest lower text Another example Van Putten believes that Uthman made 4 codices and they are Medinah, kufah, basrah, syria And that makkah is not even part these Quran 25:25 we find In all codices except makkah ونزل الملاءكة In makkah وننزل الملاءكة So according to Puten (وننزل) should be a scribal error? Guess what? ‏Can be found in sanaa palimpsest lower text (وننزل) And the upper text of sanaa (which us post Uthmanic standardization) has (و نزل) If those are “scribal Mistakes” how come we find it in sanaa’s lower text which is pre Uthmanic?
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
@@thepoorsultan5112 What's the Sana Palimpsest got to do with the 4 Uthmanic master copies? Uthman ordered all companion codices/version to be banned and to be replaced by Uthman's version so it doesn't matter what the bottom layer of the Sana Palimpsest says - the government of Uthman says stop. What you've been told about those differences being deliberately put in is a load of nonsense that you've been fed. Look in the description section below this video to see why ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-X2wZu7RWA2w.html
@oneing4206
@oneing4206 2 года назад
Derek’s ignorance is astonishing.
@fajartiyarabdulmajid7807
@fajartiyarabdulmajid7807 2 года назад
He is biassed...
@potkinazarmehr
@potkinazarmehr Год назад
Its not even certain that Osman existed. The canonised version of Quran we have today was in fact produced by Abdul Malik. Even if Osman existed he didn’t have the means to canonise the Quran and send it to other places.
@rijadhadzic3396
@rijadhadzic3396 2 года назад
1:00:15 no its not a sectarian difference. In sunni islam we have both washing the feet, and wiping over the socks. This is a fiqh issue so as we see here the qiraat only add meaning to the deen of Allah while preserving maximum eloquence in its recitation.
@jeffmoliere4092
@jeffmoliere4092 2 года назад
What was the influence of the Petra scrolls?
@inquisitivemind007
@inquisitivemind007 2 года назад
Same as viagra has on a 85 year old man 👴- none.
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