The equivalent of opening your house up to someone willingly or unwillingly and giving them a room to sleep in and then the same visitor demanding that his room be independent of the rest of the house…in a nutshell 😂
Yeah, Sizwe really tried to make the Independence movement look bad. Willfully ignoring the multi-racial nature of the movement by ignoring the Cape Coloured Congress, desperately trying to racialise the issue, not taking the issue seriously, and stacking the panel with people hostile to the idea.
I’m a big fan of Sizwe and an avid fan of his podcast but this was a truly a poor attempt at moderating a debate. He clearly has his own views and sees it fit to interrogate Craig while not challenging the baseless inflammatory accusations being made by the other panellist. As brilliant as Sizwe is, I fear he is out of his depth as a journalist and broadcaster
I agree - I'm increasingly less impressed by Sizwe - when he interviewed Gayton Mackenzie he was openly hostile and biased - when he interviewed Fikile Mbalula his demeanour was meek, respectful and more professional - here he is openly biased and one sided. He is at best inconsistent in his approach and I think he really is out of his depth as you fear. Don't think I'm going to follow this channel anymore - it's frustrating in it's inherent bias through Sizwe's moderation.
You're an idiot. You lack understanding and you're poorly raised. This country does not and will not be sliced up by the tourist who frequent it in cape town.
If you want answers give the man the opportunity to answer you. This interview was conducted in bad faith. This is one reason we want independence we are tiered of trying to make the country better just to be dismissed and insulted. The SABC is just a mouthpiece of the ANC
F off to Europe, bloody coloniser. No European has the right to own African land. We are going to deal with you eventually, once your white loathing ANC has been voted out
Lol! The SABC also use to be a mouthpiece for the Broederbonder! Funny how the tables turn! If white people hate South Africa so much I’m sure Holland and Britain would welcome them back with open arms.
the problem is that people define self-determination to suit whatever they are trying to achieve. I would argue that there's no definition of the term that has anything to do with this advocation in the context of South Africa
Independance means taling land where they will decide what goes in that country. Major consequences for township/capeflats blacks n coloureds. White supremacy Bullying n racism will prevail. Who will you complain to? Scores of people will be squeezed out of WC n youll see scores of Zim cheap labour continuing.
@@MegaNanoT Mr Van Heerden himself said in this video that historically there were no Bantu in the Western Cape. You can't have it both ways. History is very very clear that no Bantu tribes were found South of the fish river.
@@pieter-venter Wrong. Van Heerden said there were no BANTUSTANS in the Western Cape. Bantustans are Native Reserves that were re-branded "Homelands" (Bantustans) in the 20th century. They were dumping grounds for expelled, ethnically cleansed populations. There were no 20th century native reserves in the Western Cape however as the Eastern Cape was always the Cape colony's native reserve, which is what he was saying, hence better conditions no matter which government was governing. (It was the best province under ANC too.) Also 1662 already colonists (Shryver and 22 men) went on expedition to encounter Xhosa pastoralists & stole and brought back a thousand head of their cattle. 1770 just happens to be when the colony frontier expanded east to Fish River & it lead to the critical mass of native resistance which resulted in the 100 year war & the native reserve.
Better do it will the lights are still on. Gugulethu and khayalitsha people can be deported back to north africa ill pay tax to send them to their ancestral home
We all tired of blacks,we vote to let you in and you demand the entire land after stealing Zimbabwe... I am tell you whites won't leave our land. If you don't get your Nguni brother's and Zimbabwe politics out the sub continent you going to see South Africans chase you. Zulus won't let whites leave and minorities won't setlle without the original 92 referendum signed. Blacks darling Jews in Cape Town wont be voted for either.we tired of hearing blacks say everyone stole your land,the gaslighting won't be forgotten or forgiven. Blacks still vote on racial lines it's pathetic
Many want it not just them...there are even legitimate African groups who want it....one's who have legally resided in the Western Cape for many years...and we're born there...
They like to be ruled by whites. Look at representation, majority of people in leadership jn Cape town and WC are whites, who only make 15% of WC population.
I got the impression that Mpofu Walsh didnt fo his homework bc he failed to challenge Mr. Craig on his view. I expected Walsh to bring up arguments to present to Craig instead of just throwing the question from one panelist to the other with his "How do you respond to that xyz?". This could have been a great discussion
I would also preferred a much more substantial discussion where we discussed the merits of Cape Independence for the people of the Western Cape (and the rest of South Africa) rather than just focussing on whether random people thought it racist or not. If people understand the what, why, and when, then it is easier to reach an informed decision (either way)
@@philcraig6175 wow nice to see your comment Mr. Craig, though I don't agree with your decision to secede from South Africa . I believe that there's more to gain by building a stronger country and not creating Oranias and Western Cape Republics. I enjoyed the debate all the same. And I am an Anglophone Cameroonian and my part of Cameroon has been pushing to break away from the rest of Cameroon but it's degenerated into a bloody civil war.
@@ngalahansel6066 "I believe that there's more to gain by building a stronger country and not creating Oranias and Western Cape Republics" South Africa and the rainbow nation is failure since the beginning, Orania is developing at a surprising rate so why not develop more, it is working, it is a basic human right, it is the new trend in the world so we will develop more of what is successful in SA.
@@philcraig6175 Can you plz tell us about your family...? Where are you originally from? How did you end up speaking the way you do, like a fresh import from the UK? In which part of the Western Cape did you grew up? Where did you attend primary school?
It is clear that Mpofu had no idea and did little to no homework. At times he regurgitate the same false statements as fact. He is clearly biased and not worth listening to.
This is a so-called "democratic" country so let the WC residents decide and not politicians some of which many people don't even know. Thanks Phil Craig.
@@Nelson_Mandela_ Can happen "by blood" because there is no democracy in SA and those who demand democracy might turn to other means of reaching their legitimate goal.
@@nedor64 that's certainly the analysis that the very pro-independance Cape Coloured Congress believes. It's what separates them from the rest of the Cape independence movement who believe it can be done peacefuly. They believe that the rest of the country is too imperialistic and too desperate to to keep power centralised in Pretoria/Johannesburg that violence is most likely the most realistic option to achieve independence.
Sizwe missed an opportunity to scrutinise the DA government and what are they really achieve in the Western Cape. Crime is national government responsibility. Health, education etc.
What about the lived experience of those in other parts of the country that never voted for the ruling part? They too are suffering from a government they never elected, the same way as the people Craig is advocating for
The South Africa constitution does not allow secession. Section 235: Mentions the right to self-determination of communities, but within the framework of a united South Africa. This right focuses on cultural, linguistic, and religious autonomy, not territorial separation.
@Kekeletso Molefi Actually that's inaccurate - even if you combine all municipalities in the WC they collectively outperform the other regions - that's despite problems with some badly run municipalities.
I'm listening to this debate for the 2nd time, the DA was also represented in the 1st debate. In that debate, the DA as the government of the Western Cape stated is official position on the WC's Independent i.e. it doesn't support this, so, using its governance track record as a means of justifying this absurd idea is not relevant. Phil Craig is a European expat who clearly moved to the WC assuming that its an extension of his European experience, his passion for this "independence" is driven by the idea of the WC as an outpost of Europe. This is a pipe dream
Always making it a race thing. It’s not about race. Phil didn’t mention anything negative about another race in this whole interview. Just unite for once man.
This man keeps talking about Coloured and Blacks as if we vote the same way. Coloured people don't support the ANC government. It is Black voters who vote for the ANC.
Not every coloured person in South Africa lives in Cape Town and the Cape Flats and not all coloureds in South Africa live in isolation from black communities. There are in fact, South Africans of all ethnicities who vote parties of their choice including the ANC, and that has nothing to do with colour but rather, more with history and the dynamics that govern their communities as we speak. In Limpopo, members of black communities founded around the historically agricultural town of Groblersdal vote for FF+ so what makes you think there's not a single group of coloured people out there who would vote for ANC? What you've expressed is what Malema would normally refer to as the "chicken view."
im colored from cape flats and the DA has oppress ppl of colour since they in control in cape town and white privilege has sky rocketed in cape town currently ...soo ppl of colour KNOW YOUR DA PLEASE!
Yap, the coloured came to SA as slaves, when Africans refused to be enslaved. They were lied by the whites that they are better slaves than black people
They can ask for independence in Europe. Not here on African land,where the land has been fertilised by our ancestors. The ANC shouldn’t have been soft on such people and we will have to show them in 2024, that South Africa belongs to the natives.
@@archiemokhethi8464 They need to be removed. Land should belong to natives and that doesn’t include any European, west African, East African,Zimbabwean, Zambian, Congolese, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani. Brazilian etc. Only the native such the Khoi, amahlubi, Basotho, Venda, Zulu, Tsonga, Tswana,Swati, San etc. That’s what needs to be establish to liberate the native as we haven’t had any freedom since 1652. We need to take back what belongs to us, so we can build ourselves like any other nation in the world even Zimbabweans, Japans, Nigerians etc got their opportunity to build themselves abs thrive without disturbance from non-natives.
Cape independance won only 0.01% election, the second time they won 0.06%. Why didn't they win the elections in the Western Cape if everybody in the Western Cape wants independence, they can't even win 1%
Yep. People in the province have been opened up to a new potential future that is local, offers direct democracy and is far from central government. Many similar movements exist all over the world where people want smaller - not bigger, government.
@@PeterJohnJnb Try and do that and we will go to war. No one will brake SA. You trying to steal our natural resources. We carry Russian weapons now so don't even try to do something stupid
Another British determining what happens to South Africa in 2023??... As Mugabe said keep your Britain, we will keep our Africa....go get independence there
Wow, Sizwe is a hostile interviewer here towards the pro-independence interviewee. The panel is stacked against the issue and they come cross, including the interviewer, as desperately trying to racialise the issue in an attempt to shut it down and not talk about the real issues that are fueling the growth of the independence movement. It feels like that the purpose of this interview was to convince black people outside of the Western Cape that it is a project by racist whites instead of having a serious discussion about why this movement is growing and becoming a real issue. I think Sizwe really disapoints here, very unprofessional.
@@bongz7452 I agree, the "Brit" (as you call him), did seem to loose his cool at one point which did him no favours. However that is not what I am talking about, the biased and often loaded questions the interviewer asked is the hostility I am talking about. In this format, where the host is supposed to be a mediator between all the panelists, it is problematic if he is seen to be taking a side. Its okay for guests to be biased, that is why they are on after all (to represent a point of view) and even hostile but not the host. Unless their format is polemical where the host is supposed to be opinionated but then the show must do us the viewer the favour by telling us that. Otherwise the how show is duplicitous and comes across as trying to trick us, the viewer.
This wasn’t a debate, it was 3 people opposing everything one guest said, honestly expected an intellectual non biased debate about what it means and would mean if the western cape was self governed
I'm no longer enjoying the way Sizwe is interviewing or "debating" his guest. I know its his job to turn it up but they way he interrupts and speaks over his guest and also the arrogance in his responses and the notion of always wanting be right, seesh. I'd walk off!
@@kamvamgwaza7142 ridiculous. Blacks and other minorities will call you a far right bigot if you call for white only european countries. Worthless idiots
I won’t be surprised if Phil and his followers already have some form of a revised Dompas in mind.If something like this would be allowed to happen, trust me , another TRC would be assembled by our grand children.
The Western Cape independence movement is a dizzy one, but at this point, the race question is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What exactly would we have the DA do about racial inequality in SA? The ANC has had ample opportunity to address inequality by doing the basics right, but the ruling party has failed, with hundreds of billions at their disposal every single year. What did South Africans think would be the result of the rampant corruption, wastage and inefficiency in the country's public services like education, healthcare, police etc? Did you think there would be no consequences? Just last week, a man died because he was a witness to corruption at the University of Fort Hare; a historically black institution. A few weeks ago, it was discovered that money that was meant for school feeding schemes, was being looted by KZN government officials and when Christopher Pappas complained about the issue in a live stream, the chair of the ANC in KZN responded by saying he should be "dealt with". As we speak, NSFAS is being looted right under our noses by the largely ANC board, after they decided to centralize accommodation accreditation. Meaning it would be a lot easier for them to accept bribes to accredit accommodations owned by their fellow comrades. These things have been happening for years, so did you not think there would be consequences? South Africans find themselves here because of themselves and the ANC. SA's tax revenue is more than the GDP of most countries on this continent, but it is being looted by scoundrels with no foresight beyond themselves and parties at KONKA. Kids don't finish school, parents don't bother involving themselves in their child's education, and so kids end up living in shacks making more kids. Crime is rampant because of widespread police incompetence, ineptitude and corruption, which has led to the DA having no choice but to create their own crime fighting force, since they are unable to get the ANC government to strengthen law enforcement legislation. It all goes back to the ANC.
Yet Again Cape Town....Sizwe did a great job....It was Craig who was getting all agitated, shifting In his chair,scratching his head,and rambling on,when Sizwe wanted to bring the other panellists in... Oscar van Heerden,Kudus to you...Cool,Calm and Collected...Son of the Soil.... Kaapenaar deur en deur....We will not accept independence....It's a pipedream after all...
The ANC would benefit from an independent Cape.. They would instantly get rid of the bulk of DA voters and get to govern un challenged in the rest of South Africa. It looks like a win win.
@@ellishaindobo1794 I've lived in Africa for longer than you my friend. But keep going with your way of thinking. Its clearly not helping you or the poor people of SA. They've all gone down under the ANC as much as Bafana Bafana (from 17th to 67th since 1995). Same with the value of the Rand and your childrens future. Keep voting along racial ANC lines instead of competent DA government, as seen in the Cape.
That white guy should be investigated if he is a South african or a british citizen . He needs to check how many pasports he has and if he has a South african citizenship , how he got it. I rest my point there. It looks like there is coffee ☕️ selling with this guy.
The moderator is like a police officer shouting "There's nothing to see here" at an enormous accident......PLEASE!! It is quite clear that given the chance the majority of WC voters would support W Cape independence. This narrative trying to spew racism is a desperate attempt to squash what is happening. The only reason so many people migrate to the western Cape is because it is run successfully and many of the voters who vote for the DA would like to see the province have national competency controls over the province too as the ANC continues to prove themselves incompetent.....that can only happen with seccession. The government cannot stop it from happening - as much as the other panalists keep saying so.
Because, it turns out, the "colonized" are in fact colonizers from the rest of South Africa. Not only that but many are imperialists from the Guateng metropol seeking to enforce their imperialist will on what they consider a colony of South Africa, the Western Cape.
The ANC had plurality of the vote in the Western Cape for quite a number of years so saying the national government didn't match provincial since 1994 doesn't add up. Also if a Republican is in national office in the U.S. and New York State votes Democrat, the next step isn't secession. And no, it was in fact only 0.6% for independence in the vote, the party he includes to claim more support is VF+, which agreed with the principle of a province holding referendums, not Cape independence. And your Cape Town numbers are decade old. The 2016 CPT community survey showed: Black 42.6% Coloured 39.9% White 16.5% Asian/Other 1.1%
This presenter has a nerve! I see DA councillors working hard on ground level improving the lives of the poor in western cape. They give them fish for a while to gain strength, then take their hands and teach them how to catch those fish. There is the difference in provinces. That is the kindest thing to do. The strongest help the weakest to become strong. If my parents just left me without showing me the ropes in life, i would have become a coach potatoe. I think by now we have killed apartheid in the 30 year anc reign. Sars list of taxepayers do not lie. The 8nflux of illegal immigrants in sa, and the gold mafia has robbed many funds that should have been applied to education, housing for the poor. This is where the problem lies.....NOT WITH RACISM BUT GANSTERISM. open borders for criminals who place us in total darkness
They are so racists they like to go on holiday in the western cape buy houses there like the roads without potholes like the service that are up to standard everything that is working like it should be ..she did not contributed to anything the DA achieved but still HAVE her apartheid againts whites because they want us to have nothing critize when we do beter that them
"We don't have to be helpless cargo on someone else's ship" Mr Craig, a free man who willingly relocated from Britain to the Western Cape, to enrich himself, is using the tragic history of the Cape coloured people to argue his point. He's THAT greedy!
If you ask him, how far back does his family go in South Africa...? You will discover that this Craig is first generation and a chlild of a recent immigrant in South Africa. Andrian Verwoed was a child of an immigrant too, not a voortrekker. There is something particular in South Africa about them. Many Europeans who moved to South Africa to seek tranquility or to start a business say, as recent European immigrants they arrive in South Africa as anti-racist but in no time; they become staunch racist. Others have said they were warned by whites in South Africa against paying Africans a living wage. All of these and the other, including this independence nonsense, is about self preservation.
I am a Cape Tonian, I am all for independence..let's understand this..we have a right..our Khoisan heritage..this is not racist but the coloureds want our heritage ..Khoisan..Go WC..
Lol this Craig guy is a liar... It will never be independent!!!!! Never!!! We will move forward whether they like it or not. Remove the ANC and have a functioning party through out the country. Everything else must be in Europe. Asisova ngabo!
They used to say that the sun "never" set on the British Empire, well those days are over and those colonies of the empire are independent. Now we must finish the job and make the Cape independent and separate it from that left over of the British Empire, South Africa.
Well done, Phil Craig👍 I admire your patience in having to keep on repeating yourself to people who quite obviously don't understand how secession works, and think they can get away with trying to make it a race issue.
Yeah, Phil fell for the race baiting of the interviewer and the two other panelists. I got the feeling that this particular program was done in bad faith.
@@arkuis I thought Phil did well to dismiss their race baiting with the contempt it deserved. The interview was absolutely done in bad faith, I agree. But that just shows how people have to resort to cheap racism accusations because they can't offer a valid counter argument. It's weak and lame and pathetic.
....and what makes you say that ? Are you not confusing class differences (present in every society) with race differences ? You can't deny there are "poor" Whites, as well as very affluent Blacks.
@@markriordan9010 it is true that there are poor whites. But in the case of Cape town, white people who could not do well at school, who are poorer in the sense that they own one car, one house and are making ten thousand rands income per month. These white fellow South Africans can still earn a living by opening up their homes to tourist. For example, Europeans and others are willing to pay R30 000 for a mere three weeks stay. Again, they can take advantage of living in a safe neighbourhood and operate as Uber drivers or sell home made cup cakes, etc. I know a women, who are in this business. People of the Western cape don't even need employment. As soon as the apartheid spatial planning is dismantled, Capetonians would take advantage of their tourist popular province and, make money for themselves.
Yes finally! They seriously think that we can't see past they lies and propaganda it's really annoying! And they really being delsional thinking we Africans will allow an independent Western Cape😂..the only thing coming is land coming back to its rightful owners violently cause we been talking and no results have come so it's time to join the struggle for Economic Freedom in our lifetime!
You really want to bet on the SANDF? They not what they used to be... They could not even stop a riot in KZN. It was common citizens who had to step in and defend themselves
These are ideas of Hendrik Verwoerd. The Afrikaners have always wanted to create a separate state within South Africa since 1642.We fought against such racist ideas and we will fight against them with all we have.
Only an enemy seeks to saw division to united people, Capetown must correct / not allow this kind of division that others are trying to plant in this country
What happens when EC wants its own independence and self determination? WC must understand that, that is not America and they not in Texas! The idea is nonsensical to say the least!
Basically these so called "independence" people want to go back to apartheid and the group areas act; they are just too dumb to realize it. The fact that we have at the helm of this nonsense a british foreigner is the epitome of white privilege !!...I mean imagine a African expat to Europe even having airtime on national to advocate for a "independent" piece of Europe. Even tolerating this is a testament of our patience as South Africans.
The Nuuspod debate on RU-vid is a much better quality debate on Cape independence than this. For anyone wanting to get a better understanding of this issue I would strongly suggest that video. They have a diverse panel of Western Cape politicians who genuinely understand provincial political talking about the subject at length and present well articulated positions for and against Cape independence. Not a motley collection of opinionestas forming a panel that is biasedly stacked for a particular opinion presenting a shallow alarmist view from Gauteng that is almost totally disconnected from the realities of Western Cape politics.
Our constitution allows for self-determination in spite of its implications. South African land that's administered according to the prescripts of the constitution, cannot be let go on basis of a desire for self-determination. If our constitution can be party to literally severing of land for private interests then 'it' is the enemy of the sovereignty of our country. However much certain lands are currently under private proprietorship, mainly of foreign origin, even in those circumstances a consolation can be gained through the fact that to they still abide by our constitution and laws. If this secession is obtained the implications are that this seceded group, through their infinite resources and proximity to our newly-set shores, will undermine our autonomy by influencing our political and economic conditions unassailable because they'll be occupying sovereign soil. I'm even not sufficiently versed as regards this issue, but I'm positive that the cons far outweigh the pros for the nation if this agenda progresses.
