I have a Piano (Yamaha Upright JX113T) which doesn't seem to have the problem described in this video. I bought mine last year. Maybe Yamaha has addressed this issue in their upright pianos since this video is 3 years old?
"don't buy an upright you can't you will never be able to learn advanced piece because of gravity and how you can't hit the notes repeatedly" Japanese guy comes solves the problem with a little metal string.
Bengie g This is actually not a new concept. The Fandrich piano with its Fandrich Vertical Action (with several patents and awards for repetition) is celebrating 25 years.
praestant8 Definitely not new, Darrell Fandrich invented the Fandrich Vertical Action that Del Fandrich (Darrell's brother) used for a little while in his Fandrich upright piano. Darrell is still manufacturing his vertical actions today.
S C But, are Fandrich's widely availible? I understand that the Granfeel is limited in its availiblity, but that may change. The other thing is that this only requires an addition by a licensed tuner. Does the Fandrich have the same luxery?
Puddintane pianos with Fandrich Vertical Actions are being made today and no you can't just have them installed because it's a complete action This design is not new in any shape or form do your research . I would be surprised if he was able to get a patent in the US if the comment below is true. Then the patent office missed something. As for his second spring that changes the tone, If this were ever available my guess is whoever had it installed would be quite disappointed with the results. Proper Piano preparation and voicing would get you much better results in terms of tone. When it comes to a grand piano touch fast repetition is not the only factor.
Don't be fooled. The piano industry despises change. There has been almost no evolution to the design of the modern piano. Some ground has been gained in the production of the felt hammers. And Kawai has experimented with plastic action parts. ( I like them ). However, I personally have ideas such as supporting the string downbearing from above, eliminating the need for sound suppressing ribs under the soundboard, along with many other thoughts on how to improve, not change the overall performance of this wonderful instrument.
HsuperJ No repetitive motion is one of several reasons why I don't like uprights . A second reason is clarity of sound . This guy is going to be rich soon .
@@v.dargain1678 one of the very many reasons I hate the piano in general is because the action sucks. Even a high end grand's action is way too heavy, way too unresponsive, way too insensitive.
@@34672rr but still you cant beat the natural acoustic sound of acoustic piano..be it upright or grand...maybe you can said high end digital sound almost the same..but for someone that high taste in sound, most of them will choose the acoustic sound...maybe the action is not like digital piano but the sound that produce from acoustic is just more beautiful..i starting with digital but when i heard the acoustic piano i just feel in love with acoustic right away, the sound just to beautiful to compare with digital piano
Thank you for this historic, needed improvement to upright piano action! Kudos to Yukimitsu Fujii. Serious pianists who can't own a grand, can now enjoy the same grand repetition speed in uprights! Many homes have no space for a grand. Many pianists lack the financial means to afford the more expensive grand pianos. Uprights pianos equipped with these two additional springs on all 88 keys are the greatest vertical piano action improvement to date!
This is very interesting. As a piano technician, I believe that He can make major difference in piano manufacturing. I could imagine many piano manufacturers using his new design for an improved functionality of an upright piano, whose action design has remained mostly the same for over a century, excluding earlier birdcage actions.
Thank you for an excellently made video. A couple of things that I hope may help: 1 I think the video should be renamed "Repeats more like" rather than "Sounds like" 2 Bechstein put a similar idea on their upright models I to IV and 6 to 9, made mostly from about 1890 to 1920. These work well but they add a loop for the spring to connect to, which is a bit cumbersome when you want to work on them, and also usually means that the check has to be regulated so the hammer checks much closer to the string; otherwise they tend to double bounce. However the Bechsteins sound very warm and rich and restore well. Thanks again for taking the time to show us this. If you're ever in Oxford UK please do visit us. Best wishes, Marcus Roberts
But to tell the effect of the 2nd spring, they should have taken the same models of piano to compare with and without the spring, it is obviously not the case in the video 5:19
- GBoGBo - The first spring primarily effects how _frequently_ one can play the keys. It doesn’t really effect how the note feels in terms of resonance. That’s what the second spring is for... minimizing the fraction of time the hammer hits the string to hopefully maximize the resonance (vibration) of the string (by not limiting it as much).
Fast trills are also a thing. To play fast, you need to stay „in“ the keys. I regularly have skipped notes when I try to trill quickly on an upright since i do not release the keys completely. And why should I, my grand does not require me to. I‘d actually rather have a high quality digital (preferably a hybrid like the Avantgrand or Novus) than an upright.
I have a Piano (Yamaha Upright JX113T) which doesn't seem to have the problem described in this video. I bought mine last year. Maybe Yamaha has addressed this issue in their upright pianos since this video is 3 years old?
Very interesting. It seems as if this little innovation should be used by all piano manufacturers. I do hope Mr. Takumi is getting credit for it and financially benefiting.
@@nightlysalvation5692 I think she was just trying to be polite, lol But while the difference is rather nuanced (and the comparison unfair because the first piano sounds noticeably farther away from the mic), the second piano sounds considerably brighter to me. It could be for any number of reasons though, since they're different models of piano and all. While a subtle distinction, it doesn't require expertise to discern either, just attention and an ear. That difference between slightly more mellow and slightly brighter could give any song a distinguishably different sound and therefore feel, sometimes for the better and sometimes the worse. It depends song to song, people's personal preferences, etc., but iirc bright sounding pianos (Steinway's typically are bright) are more popular in countries like the USA and Japan
I think this is a good idea. There have been springs added to upright actions to improve repetition, but this system in the video looks good. Innovation like this brings something new to the table
Interesting, thank you. Summary: 2 springs added. First spring returns lever faster to allow for more notes per second (14 with vs 7 without). Second spring pulls hammer off strings faster to make the strings sound less muted (and more like a grand piano).
Alex Vennos The Steinway & Sons upright is probably the closest sounding to a grand and that would probably cost 50K. It’s probably better to just a buy a grand.
@@Berettadv Such a horrible instrument, I can't believe our idiot ancestors came up with a rube goldberg machine of an instrument which can't even play glissando/portamento. They were simply trying to have one person play as many notes as possible. Thus the convoluted evolution of the piano, which just sucks. Not only does it lack key functionalities of musical instruments especially the human voice, the theory that developed around piano is just utter dogshit, and has colored western music with the tinge of dogshit ever since. And I am a keyboard player
This allows for faster repetitions but would also change the action because you would need to press against the spring during the last part of the key movement. As a result, the piano would feel like a spring-based synthesizer keyboard instead of an acoustic. This experiment was tried before and this why most upright piano actions have springs to reset the jack that are not in the way of the movement of the key. If you want a high quality action with fast repetition on an upright then you need to look at the premium European uprights that use magnets instead of springs to accelerate the repetition. Check as examples the Steingräber SFM or the Seiler SMR upright actions. But these uprights cost as much as 6-7 foot Japanese concert grand piano...
Awesome! So simple. Really great for young pianists. At the end of the day you can't get an upright to a grand for reasons other then just action work, but this is really a far leap in our world.
Yamaha or Kawai should add this as an optional feature to their higher end upright range. Many aspiring pianists would be willing to pay a premium for an upright that is able to play nearly as well as a larger grand piano.
My Wurlitzer Spinet from 1940-1950 featured actions like this, they return at 3/4 of position and according to our original tuner (bless his soul) and our new one it's one of the best sounding spinets which are part of the upright piano, considering it was an affordable piano then, and never had its hammers reshapen until this year, so 70-80
I am enjoying many times the piano that is so good! You hear the sweet tones of strings all day! I love to buy this one tomorrow! See you there? OK let's go now!
As a technician, myself, I would not belittle this man or the work of others, because they are making demonstrable improvements. Priority does not matter. And what have you, if a critic, created to help others today? The action of an upright can be made to repeat very well, indeed, by catching the hammers closer to the strings. An expressive, sotto voce repetition results. Anyway, the goal of technicians is to make the mechanism of either grand or upright not a mechanism, but a natural extension of the player's fingers. That these mechanisms are organic and fallible makes them all the more interesting. Like people, pianos are high strung and responsive to TLC.
Over 40 years ago I was given an upright piano by a friend. It was built around 1903 in America. When I had it tuned by the local tuner, he told me it was a very special piano and was an upright concert grand. He said it was specially made and also that all three pedals functioned, which isn't the case for most uprights. He mentioned that its action was aided by some sort of springs. Unfortunately the Piano tuner passed away a few years later. It does need some work (bridal stops and hammers need reshaped) and I have never had it tuned since (no piano tuners in the area). I hope to send it off to a store in the next few years to have it tuned and fixed. The keys do respond very quickly when played, even in the shape it's in. I am not a trained pianist, so there was no rush to get it repaired. Now that I am retired, I am planning on playing again. Meanwhile I have a Packard Pump organ that belonged to my great grandmother and a Hammond T500 that belonged to my mother (and three guitars, including a twelve string) so I am not without a instrument to play.
Ignoring the comments by non piano players, this is a very exciting change. Because gravity is much more gentle than a spring, I would imagine that the longer the spring, the better. Just a thought. I don't really understand why gravity can't be used instead, using some kind of counterweight, or perhaps it would make the mechanism too involved and clunky
The other spring you added, to make the hammer leave the string more rapidly, is something we've never come across. A great idea which it would be good to try! If this works, then the title "Sounds like a Grand Piano" would make sense. Perhaps "Repeats and sounds more like" is the correct title. Marcus
I think we both know what makes a piano sound like a grand piano, and that is a grand piano. C Bechsteins sound great no matter what they are. A Yamaha U-1 or U-3 have great boards and therefore sound pretty damn good. The taller the piano, the longer and thinner the bass strings are. The closest upright in comparison to a 6 foot plus grand, for me was a 1899 Mason and Hamlin . That was just a unique treasure at the school I was attending, ( American Institute of Pianoforte Technology, Moulten St. Los Angeles 1991 )
they are bar none my favorite. Mason & Hamlin had the most creative genius working for them at the time your piano was built. His name is Richard Gertz. If you want, look him up. He is the reason your piano is there with the best of them.
MrTommy4000 Thanks for the info, I will definitely be looking up the name. I got the piano for free, before a sledge hammer was taken to it. Its now finally taking shape, and I'll be starting the action rebuild over the winter.
Your piano probably has brass flanges, be careful with those. One more thing to help you... If you are replacing the hammers, talk with Wally Brooks in Connecticut. He is the best in the business. So is his wife. Good luck and have fun. I'd be glad to offer my 2 cents anytime if you need another opinion.
who will win, a highly advanced and technical piece of music, or a good piece of music, however complex or technical? Music has nowhere to "advance" to. People have tried and failed to advance music, but it doesn't make it any better.
Tirelessly to reinvert the traditional piano technology which looks nothing can go further for most of the people. This makes Japan as one of the top frontier on sicentific, industries and technologies for the rest of the world.
Awesome! Thanks for posting this it was very interesting. Did Your modification stiffen the touch any? I’m 64, and have been playing since 5 and really never noticed this before. I play on a digital piano these days, but still have a Yamaha grand. I also had a Baldwin studio sized upright that probably needed this modification. What I don’t like the most is what I call “return oscillation”. That’s when the key keeps bouncing up and down after you let up on it. It doesn’t instantly come to complete rest. That problem prevents you from playing really fast notes or arpeggios. So I solved that problem by adding a felt stop being some of the moving parts. This was a major problem with the Fender Rhodes piano. it’s problem was a little different, the hammers continued to bounce up and down after letting up on a key. The solution was the simplest of all. I just added a long piece of felt the length of the keyboard, underneath the hammers.
Why don’t more manufacturers do this? To entice musicians to buy the more expensive instruments? I’m glad I came across this video because I’ve wondered why it is noticeably more difficult to play fast songs on my upright than on grand pianos... and uprights have a slightly “heavier” feel to the key depending on the brand. I’m glad they also mentioned the lower vs. side mount of the hammer and how it affects resonance. I hope more companies can implement this new mechanism!
I've played upright piano all my life, and I thought I was just a shit piano player and could never hope to play more complex pieces, but now I think it's just my piano.
It's probably not, here's Valentina Lisita playing La Campanella beautifully on an out of tune, public upright piano ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ez_X4em2f9M.html
Nah dude i think he meant the actions of keys on an upright piano. I played one and the keys cant be repeated very fast. That La campanella vid you showed is just a bright piano that is out of tune but has the same ability of a grand piano that can press notes repetitively. So he isn't able to play La campanella completely.
As a piano tech, I can provide some feedback on this. In the first place, this has already been accomplished with a piano called the Fandrich which is named after the tech who devised it years ago in Olympia, Washington(or maybe it was Seattle because he had a collaborator named Trivelas also design it who was located there). I played it on a prototype at a NAMM show and later on a Czech made instrument either then or on another occasion. While no doubt it appears to be an impressive mechanism, there would be a fairly limited market for this in the States unless it was priced low enough, because if it was expensive, most people would say, "why should I buy this when I can actually acquire a grand that has a grand sound to it?" (hence the title of this video is misleading because it doesn't make the upright "sound" like a grand. Instead it "plays" like a grand. Nevertheless, I wish Mr. Fujii luck with this!
Doesn't look very expensive. I think it would make perfect sense. But that would cut into the ultra expensive grand piano market. So I doubt the big manufacturers have an interest in it.
@@patrickjones8255 Well you have to factor in tooling costs at the factory the extra time it will take to ensure the tension is right for all 88 notes on a piano. an addition like this can drive up the price way more than you would think. Especially since the lower cost pianos tend to be tooled for cost with pre-assembled actions that act as a drop in. You would have to add this onto the production line which is several more steps compounded 88 times. Not to mention this does change the feel of the action. The spring acting against the jack does add tension and a lot of people don't like a different feeling action and this will be on the floor right next to other pianos that sound just as nice but for a lower cost. You can already buy a peral river grand fro 2500-5000 usd depending on the market and the store. And They do in fact sound about as nice as most of the higher priced uprights and it has a grand action. Not to mention the asthetics of a grand are generally much nicer. That is what you are competing with. so adding an extra 400 usd manufacturers cost adds about another 1000 wholesale which adds another 1000 on top of that resulting in a piano that is 2000 usd more expensive because they added 1 spring. Not to mention opportunity costs of making less pianos due to the extra time needed to make and regulate this piano resulting in lower numbers of that piano being produced driving up the cost further.
Yes. Of course. I had never thought of that. The effect of gravity will be different when the hammer mechanism is vertical from when it is horizontal, broadly speaking. Well done.
My parents have an upright piano that can play notes repeatedly without having to let the dampers down. It's over a hundred years old too. There is a limit to how fast you can play it, which this video seems to be more about, but in the beginning he mentioned you can't play a note without letting the key come back all the way. That's just not true for all uprights.
I can see this being a big seller in the United States there are a lot of people that like the sound of a grand piano but not the room for a grand piano in the house to small this would be a solution to the problem an upright that sound like a grand piano the man in this video that developed this piano should sell it abroad he would make a fortune doing this so I hope these are sold in the U.S because a lot of people like the sound of a grand piano but have no room for one these people would buy the upright that sounds like a grand piano.
@@ronb6182 "I can see this being a big seller in the United States. There are a lot of people that like the sound of a grand piano but not the room for a grand piano in the house to small. This would be a solution to the problem: an upright that sounds like a grand piano. The man in this video that developed this piano should sell it abroad. He would make a fortune doing this, so I hope these are sold in the U.S because a lot of people like the sound of a grand piano but have no room for one of these. People would buy the upright that sounds like a grand piano." I didn't change anything except the punctuation (and capitalizing the first letter of each new sentence). How is that one sentence? That's easily six. It only flows like one long run-on because of the lack of punctuation. I'm not trying to crap on this guy's ability to write (and I'm pretty sure English is not his first language anyway, so props to him for being multilingual.. probably), nor am I trying to say that all internet communication has to have perfect grammar, punctuation, must be devoid of slang, and can never use run-on sentences even though they're more conversational in nature. In fact, I understood this comment perfectly fine too, but that's you and me. Obviously there are some other people who see a chunk of raw text and have trouble reading it or just don't want to struggle through that. The comment is edited too, so to be fair I have no idea what it could've said or looked like before. But how hard would it have been to at least try to break it up a little? Even if it's wrong. Just something, ya know? I gotta admit, it flows a lot better that way, and it's easier on the eyes and brain too
@@JMRabil675 I know this is late, and I kinda already did it to an extent in my last comment, but I may as well finish fixing this comment for you and anyone else who may find it helpful: "I can see this being a big seller in the United States. There are a lot of people that like the sound of a grand piano but don't have the room for one because their house is too small. This would be a solution to the problem: an upright that sounds like a grand piano. The man in this video that developed this piano modification should sell it abroad. He would make a fortune doing this, so I hope these are sold in the U.S. because a lot of people like the sound of a grand piano but have no room for one of them. People would buy an upright that sounds like a grand piano." I tried to keep it as similar to the original text as possible
Not this piano, but fandrich pianos are sold in the US which have a repetition spring on their action. They are pricy though. But do sound nice and have a good scale on them.
The sound should have nothing to do with it. The strings, hammer felt and soundboard etc determine the sound. The spring shown, affects the touch and to give the ability to rapid play of a note.
bennemann It could just be that the second upright piano sounds better than the first. There isn’t any real explanation. It doesn’t automatically mean the spring makes it sound better.. Although I’d suspect action does have a bit of an impact on how a piano sounds because you’re (probably) getting more resonance with velocity, however imitating a grand piano.. that part is bs. I played on a $15k grand and several others and filmed it. Even my iPhone’s camera captured better sound quality than whatever camera they used to film this. You probably can’t replicate a grand piano without a grand piano, sadly.
The video could have explained this better. The effect in sound is caused by the fact that with the second device the hammer lingers on the string for a briefer time, reducing the dampening effect the hammer has on the string it has struck. Part of the reason grands sound so good is that gravity automatically limits this unwanted dampening. Still, even on grands technicians will play with hammer weight to avoid the hammer sitting on the string for longer than is optimal.
@@andrewsilver7048 grand piano only sounds "better" because it's louder and bigger and usually better maintained, tuned more often and usually has better rooms it's played in. The upright, like any instrument, is just an instrument, it's sound is determined by what's played on it. an 8 string bass doesn't sound any better than a 4 string bass
Technology? They're just strategically placed springs... probably made from nothing more than music wire itself. Not to take away anything from the guy that came up with the idea, because it IS a good idea.
