Vertical Aid Climbing - IRATA Level 2 Training 

Thank you Atlan🙏🏻🙏🏻. This is so good to hear and confirmations like this tell me I am on the right path. Thank you🙏🏻🙏🏻

@@TheRopeAccessChannel You are on the right path for sure. What Altan said for sure. Great editing. Jim

@@aerialrescuesolutions3277 Thank you Jim!

I appreciate that! Thank you for watching🙏🏼🙏🏼

Thanks! Better get ready, You'll be doing that next week ;-)

Hi Julien, thank you for your input. I love the parent child story. That’s a cool one. I’m sorry to inform you that I am stealing it 😜😜🙏🏻🙏🏻. Also thanks for the Grillon information. I will look into that. That could also be a nice add on to the Grillon video I am planning. Of course I should be perfectly able to find it online myself, do you have any reference material on that! I’m out of town on a 2G data tower. I can barely reply to this haha.

Hi Julien, thank you for your input. I love the parent child story. That’s a cool one. I’m sorry to inform you that I am stealing it 😜😜🙏🏻🙏🏻. Also thanks for the Grillon information. I will look into that. That could also be a nice add on to the Grillon video I am planning. Of course I should be perfectly able to find it online myself, do you have any reference material on that! I’m out of town on a 2G data tower. I can barely reply to this haha.

Not the best my friend. Just good enough with a camera to make a nice video about it ;-)

Thanks brother🙏🏻. I see what you are saying about keeping the etrier low. However are we not always loading the top anchor anyway? At some point we are suspended from it. I can imagine when aiding trad on rock it can be an issue. But as our anchors should be able to hold 15kN a little bit of body weight bounce should be ok. It should not be more force than clipping in and leaning back. Just to clarify, your way is the safer one. 99% safe vs 97,3% I am totally making these nrs up of course and do you see what I mean?😉

I know what you mean and we both agree it's not a big deal either way. I am not trying to pick holes because your video is awesome and you demonstrated a solid technique. Applying common sense, it wouldn't happen anyway but a foot loop on the top eyebolt does give the opportunity to stand up and raise the ventral attachment above the eyebolt. Should the top eyebolt fail, it would be a high fall factor down to the eyebolt below. Cheers dude!

@@simonthomson1631 👊🏼👍🏼

I think that if the bolts are further apart you would be forced to reach higher where your main bolt would be over FF1 high. With adjustable lanyards it will be a more static and controlled movement but if you need to stand up in the footloop and reach you will already pass ff1. Sitting at home behind the computer I find it hard to visualize though. I know the guys from @AccessTechniques1 have a video out on exactly that subject and the force on the cowstails was quite high.

Make before brake! I like it 😃😃😃 Thanks for sharing thath👍🏻👍🏻

Because when learning I think it is best to become aware of having to lock and check your carabiners. Switching from screw to triact never is an issue. But people who have learned with only triact have a hard time remembering to check their system. Which sort of shows that they never were when using triact. They were trusting the springs to function. Unfortunately they wear out, get dirty etc. And in my work I encounter a lot of screwgate carabiners, so it is best to start with that. And one more thing, in basic training, we are not climbing for speed, we need to be safe. Taking the time to screw a carabiner also gives you time to stay focused on all the steps in the system.

The best question yet my friend🙏🏻🙏🏻. This is so cool to hear! I am working on it and it will be around the fall ‘22. For now there is a Patreon set up that I am not actively promoting. Only one tier available. It basically means that for every video I release, you buy me a cup of coffee😉

I think some information is missing in translation here. You need two independent points of attachment when suspended. A MGO Y with absorber is still only one point of attachment. Two hooks yes and only one carabiner to the harness. Therefore only one point of attachment.

Great observation and there are some simularities. But it sort of stops at a 3 point system and we all use a harness. The biggest difference is that in rope access the bolts are all perfect. I have seen some footage of trad aid climbing that in my private would love to do, but it would be way too sketchy to use in a work situation. Safety first in work, safety third in private 😜😜 Do you think "real" climbers think about the forces possible on even a 1 meter piece of dynamic rope? What I have seen in the past they use knotted slings or daisy chain slings for connections (still have a daisy chain on my harness). Those are static and that can result in big forces. I think climber mostly take a calculated risk. What if there is no place to put a piece but 1,5 meter up? You would have to go into FF1,5/2 to put a new piece in. There is no real choice right? Let me say that I am absolutely not up to date to all the latest trad/aid/rockclimbing techniques. Maybe I know something, maybe a lot, I have no idea, and it seems to me in outdoor climbing risk acceptance is at a whole different level 😉

@@TheRopeAccessChannel great observations and I completely agree with your assessment. It seems like climbers are becoming more aware and concerned about the fall factors associated with taking a “daisy fall”. On easier aid climbing terrain it’s becoming more common that some climbers will skip using daisy chains and keep them clipped to their harness gear loops until they use them for jumaring or for clipping into the anchor (the rope is still tied in short as the primary connection point but the daisys can be easily adjusted in length while at the belay which is convenient). Currently my aid climbing system utilizes a Petzl Evolv Adjust with a AM’D Ball Lock on each end. Then for ladders I’m using the Yates Big Wall Aiders with Petzl Owall (non locking ovals) . The locking carabiner gets clipped into the carabiner at the top of the Aiders or alternatively to the hero loop. While this system feels more robust than the use of traditional sewn daisy chains it’s still not rated as PPE and Petzl doesn’t make it clear which rope they use for this device as they do with the Connect Adjust lanyard. It’s pretty common practice for aid climbers to replace the cord with a similar length of dynamic rope. This is done primarily done either because of wear on the rope or for the purpose of using a thinner diameter to help make it easier to lengthen. Other popular options/alternatives to sewn daisy chains are the Yates Adjustable Daisy Chains (and other similar products) which use webbing with an adjustable cam lock buckle. These have the huge advantage of being able to be released (lengthened) even while under load. This can be a slight convenience on up to crucial depending on the angle of the climbing. Roofs that are horizontal are when this provides the biggest advantage and makes this type much more efficient. They are stronger than the pockets of sewn daisys but still only intended for body weight applications. Eventually wear on the webbing will cause them to begin slipping and at that point the webbing strap should be replaced. Climbers usually get a number of big wall climbs out of them before they get worn to the point of slipping. The other popular one is made by Metolius that uses a simple two piece “buckle” that the webbing is threaded through and back through the second piece so that it locks when weighted but can be shortened or lengthened with relative ease. These are the lightest adjustable option but likely the least strong according to pull tests. There is a small company who has made a similar product that is touted to be significantly stronger as shown by pull test results. Depending on preference a fifi hook may be used and can be on a sling of fixed length or one of the available adjustable models (ie: Kong Adjustable Fifi Hook or Skot’s Wall Gear Alfifi. The later of which has a cult following of enthusiastic proponents). I suppose to a certain extent strength is a moot point (as long as it’s rated to a minimum of 3 or 4 kn) because if the daisy doesn’t break in a fall (with a significant fall factor) the resulting shock load run would risk of causing the piece of pro below the climber to fail. The failure of the first piece could realistically cause one or more subsequent pieces to fail (depending on the quality of the placement/grade of difficulty). Either way it’s going to be unpleasant at best to take a daisy fall. While proper technique, especially doing things in the correct order can go a long way towards making the climber safer it would likely fail to be sufficient from a rope access point of view. I will try to link a video that does a good job of showing a typical aid climbing progression and is utilizing adjustable daisys as well as one where no daisy chains are being used.

@@brianrodman1033 thanks for explaining. I see the basic system is still the same and its good to see people are starting to think deeper into the what ifs. Looking forward to that video

@@TheRopeAccessChannel Here is a “How to aid climb” instructional video: (the presenter is using the fairly current system with two Yates adjustable daisy chains and generally still makes limited use of a fifi hook rather than using traditional pocketed daisys w/ a fifi hook like would have been more common pre 2000 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-QdRrBJpqhNk.html Here is a video where (Chris MacNamera, who published the “Super Topo” Yosemite Big Wall Guide Book in the early 2000’s along with a Super Topo How To Big Wall Climb” Book as well as owning/running the SuperTopo dot com website that was a climbing forum and route info resource ) is aiding without daisy chains- less stuff for beginners to get tangled and manage, intended for easier grades of aid climbing. But as you can imagine that is going to feel very insecure for many climbers due to the worry of dropping an aid ladder or feeling insecure without their double daisy umbilical cord. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-IVJSx6dqjno.html I briefly mentioned adjustable fifi hook set ups, I believe. Well one of the newest and very popular (at least with Yosemite aid climbers) pieces of gear is an adjustable fifi hook called the Alfifi by Skot’s Wall Gear. It’s like the mating of a fifi hook and a Yates adjustable daisy. It may not sound like something that would offer any improvement but it is exceptionally fast, efficient, and effective for aid climbing. It will most often be the only connection that the climber uses to weight or hang from during the aid climbing sequence while they climb either with 1) no daisy chains attached to their aiders 2) with pocketed daisys connected to the aiders just to prevent them from being dropped or 3) with adjustable daisys which are generally left fully lengthened and used mainly for aider retention, alternatively they may utilize the adjust daisy chains to some degree generally on tougher and more overhanging terrain. Need to find a good example of someone using the Alfifi to illustrate it in action.

What do you mean with hanging device?

@@TheRopeAccessChannel Can it be used like rig or ID Because it is used as a positioning device. Example: I need to go over the edge and do something that is relatively close to the edge and the job requires horizontal movement. For such work, for example, can I use two grillons, or either grillon and asap?

@@nenadmrakovic7409 the first thing to do with questions like this is, check the user manual and the manufacturers website. But I’ll give you the answer😉. Yes you can👍🏼

The horizontal one is out already. The vertical one is in the making and planned for fall of 2022

@@TheRopeAccessChannel I'm sorry, I meant both with I beam clamps. My apologies

@@Dan21rod gotcha. I can make that. And will of course. But the principles are the same right. It doesn’t matter if you use steels or clamps. Just stay on two point at all times😉👊🏼

That depends…. It varies per region and scheme. According to IRATA 15kN. According to Dutch regulations 12kN. I think (parts of) Canada 16kN and US rope rescue has different requirements. And then there is your risk assessment that will tell you if you need more or not

@@TheRopeAccessChannel thanks for the reply mate. Your right, I should be more regionaly specific. What im trying to understand is in Australia if AS/NZS 5532 recommends 18kN for 2 person limited free fall anchor and we install a 15kN rope access aid anchor, dose this mean we can't be on the same anchor in the aid route that we are doing a rescue off? Like a hard point rescue.

@@mrmurray4374 I looked that norm up and found this document: multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1298707O/a001au-anchorage-strength.pdf That sums it up pretty clear. And I can definitely see where this can become confusing. It sure is for me 🤔. Mostly because it doesnt make sense. One or two people shouldnt matter. Our backup should limit the max force to below 6kN. With regards to aid climbing, I would say 18kN for two person with a limited (less than 600mm) fall and 12kN for 1 person. Seems inconsistent, why not double it for two persons if they want to think like this.. I can see why in a fall arrest system for 2 people there will be a difference. In that case, if they both decide to jump of the roof at the same case, there is a potential shockload of 2x6kN=12kN. And when taking that in mind why only increase to 21kN, shouldnt it be just doubled again to 30kN? And btw, how do you get a rope strong enough to be stronger than 21kN? (requirement for 2 person rope system) In a system like that you can't use knots. Staying above 15kN is already on the edge. Part of the reason we get asked to do jobs, is because there are no anchors or other traditional solutions. We risk assess it, write down our findings. In that we can say that performing a pick of rescue can never put a force of above 6kN on the anchor and therefore 15kN is good enough. (because it is the same for one person). "In aid we take care to never share a backup anchor, so at least 3 anchors between two people." Just to be clear, I never do that consciously, 12/15kN is plenty strong for anything 2 people. It might be a phrasing to explain why you can justify two persons on 12kN anchors. I wish I could help on this, and to me it doesnt make any sense at all.. Maybe somebody else can chime in on this.

@@mrmurray4374 By the way, a good place to ask is the Ropelab facebook page by Richard Delaney. A true brain trust of all things rope. facebook.com/groups/RopeTestLab

@@TheRopeAccessChannel thank you so much for putting so much effort into that response mate. I totally agree, I'm desperately trying to break it all down and I think I've accidentally stepped into a black hole lol. I've had loads of different answers but non with any documentation to back it as fact. All I know is something isn't adding up and I won't be able to rest till I get an answer that is backed with proof. Again, thank you so much for you reply and thanks for all your great videos.

Hola

Awesome! How can I help?

I have done similar jobs before, but there was always some sort of back up involved in case of stuff sliding down.. We used lifting spansets or double length climbing slings. I think it can be done safely. Even with lifting slings, or I should say especially with lifting slings. Take a 2 ton WLL spanset strops, wrap it a few times and it will still hold way more than 15kN as a MBS. I don't know it will stop a slide. There are a lot of variables and it can be done. And 4ft seems short. 9 ft or something would be better, you need 3 or 4 wraps. And it is cumbersome. A proper risk assessment and wms should make it clear. Sometimes you really need to test on location.. That said.... If you really want to do it safely.. Use these: industrieelklimmen.nl/product/tiger-horizontal-vertical-beam-clamp/ Work like a charm. By the way, you were in your right to refuse. There needs to be a solid plan in place before these kind of things get done. And not some L3's ego saying and wishing it to be true..

That’s exactly part of what I am saying in this video. This setup/method works if the anchor points are close enough together and you can limit your FF to 1 or preferably below that. If you get above that it might be better to think of a different method.