You say the exact opposite of what my wife says. I brought up that there was a new cooperative expansion for viticulture releasing and she said "but how would I beat you?". lol
Cooperative games brought me back into board games... starting with Pandemic. I have Essentials + Tuscany + Rhine Valley and my group is just about to try it in the next month. If I had not bought those, I might go for Viticulture World first. For the versions I have, I could relax the worker placement blocking if I felt it was too restrictive, but my group values the experience more than a winner. When we played Pillars of the Earth that has restrictions on spots and we had no problem with that. Just pick something else.
Glad to hear the game itself is pretty sound and that the pack is optional. History is history and yes it’s horrific in some aspects but being made aware of it and the impact it had is what allows us to learn from it and improve ourselves. Before this was brought up, I had no knowledge of the subject, now I learn something new,
yup, with hindsight, i think the best way stonemaier could have handled the whole thing was to publish with the new cards that are coming instead of the conquistadors, but also include a section in the rulebook diving more into the history of the viticulture industry in south america, and talk about the conquistadors there, rather than putting them on display as characters that we have to interact with.
@@TheBrokenMeeple well, i don't think anyone has "gone after" anything here, only pointed out places where games can handle subject matter better in the hopes that the industry will do better in the future (and as a result, the industry is consistently doing better over time) :) and yeah, santa maria has stirred up a lot of "what the????" responses over the years, though the designer was always very active engaging in discussion with those who expressed concerns and never dismissed or brushed off anyone's opinions, which helped a lot. and ultimately the game got an expansion that gave more agency to the oppressed as well.
@Paul i'm pretty sure that's not a quote from me, but regardless there's no denying the problematic nature of santa maria (the designers themselves have expressed regret at how they handled the subject matter), and i'm not sure why you think i am denying it?
i guess just to be clear, let me add that i respect the intent the developers had with santa maria... making a game that's purposely designed to create cognitive dissonance amongst players who would otherwise not think twice about the casual acceptance of the colonization theme in boardgaming, and maybe get them to re-evaluate that perspective. did it succeed at what they intended? no, not at all. the irony they employed was way too subtle for starters, plus there were plenty of other issues. honestly, their authorial intent was probably doomed from the start, and i believe they'd agree with that too, based on conversations i've had with them. is the game a stepping stone towards a better and more thoughtful industry? i'd say yes, but YMMV. do i hope it gets a revamp down the road along the lines of the upcoming puerto rico re-envisioning (which i had a small hand in making happen)? f*ck yes! see here if you haven't heard about it: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-k66uVuGs5aY.html :)
My wife and I did the intro, and we don't really get it. It's coop but we do our own victory points?? That a fail. Unless we read something wrong. We loved the board though. We liked how you can upgrade the spaces.
i didn't play the intro one, so i'm not sure myself. if you ask here: boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/360226/viticulture-world-cooperative-expansion you're sure to get a solid response :)
I just had a look at the solo rulebook and on the last page it has ways to decrease and increase the difficulty level. They might work. Would "no restriction on the wake-up track" make Africa easier? I think that means you and Jen may take the same wake-up track benefit.
I agree that coop is better than competitive for this theme, but it seems more complex than the original “elegant” design. I value elegance so much that I play without the Toscana expansion.
having a lot of fun with viticulture with friends and family and couldn’t believe how many picked up the game within minutes. Yes I think improving the industry is just in the best interest of boardgame publishers that need all the sales they can get. I think I am in agreement with you Rahdo that some historical text could be included like in science based games from genius games ( genotype, cellulose, cytosis ). recently playing cartaventura and it has a nice blurb about the historical context of their game. I am playing lLhasa and their wild west game is around Bass Reeves the original lone ranger who as a black lawman.. so good
Thanks for the video, Rahdo! I do have one question I'd like to hear your thoughts on. Would you say you prefer Concordia with the Solitaria expansion or Viticulture with the Viticulture World expansion better, and why?
I've watched Maggie's video and read mixed opinions about the conquistadors. My take on this matter is sadly learning how toxic the gaming community can be.
There has always been Stonemaier bashing, i wouldn't call it toxic just for that, but it's true there are lots of people who kind of ruin other people's experience. Like come on guys not cool.
why? that would have simply cost more money for me to buy a full new game with all the core pieces and cards and stuff, rather than an expansion to an existing game.
@@rahdo but people who bought the original viticulture bought it for that game. The expansion changes it to a coop game. So the expansion would appeal to the Venn diagram of people who would like both (I.e. those that don’t like competitive but like coop have to buy base game and coop). So it makes more sense to not set out solo and coop modes in expansions. And I’m noticing this is happening more often which makes the hobby more inaccessible to different types of gamers. Also, if they make a brand new game, they can really make a game for teh coop design rather than augment an existing design
@@CresentSoul I agree with you. This is basically something else.. and doesn't really live up to it's potential. I would also wager that base + expansion is more expensive than just getting the co-op game you wanted..
@@Big_Dai it's not more expensive for people who arleady own the base. this was made for people who already love viticulture and want to play it as a co-op, by people who fit that description (i know, i talked to them at great length about the development of the expansion). so this is by far the most cost effectively way to get this experience into the hands of people who want it :)
I know that the big draw for Tuscany expansion is the new board. Since this game adds its own new board, is there any reason to pick up Tuscany as well if your plan is to only play Viticulture cooperatively with World?
AFAIK the only element from Tuscany that can be used with VW is the orange structure cards and TBH I doubt you'd miss them. The VW board incorporates some of best ideas from Tuscany.
The Viticulture World board is two-sided and one side allows you to play with Tuscany’s structure cards. I don’t know if it works with the special workers that were also added in Tuscany though.
I watched the Thinker Theme video as soon as you recommended it a few days ago. I want to congratulate them for making a statement that needed to be made. And I applaud Jamie for stepping up to the challenge to fix this oversight, although I still wonder how this slipped through. I got a chill as soon as you mentioned Cortez and Pissaro. If not the actual history, is no one on the design team familiar with Neil Young's "Cortez the Killer"?
honestly it slipped through because they felt like they'd done enough with the disclaimer, and because jamey and the other developers simply didn't have the cultural context to appreciate what including those cards meant. honestly, i would have included myself in that lack of understanding as well if A&M hadn't spoken up about it. but as soon as they did, to me it was immediately obvious what a huge blindspot i had. i understand why it's important to take down statues to confederate generals in the american south, but never occurred to me that this was the same sort of thing. which is why it's so important that A&M gave voice to this issue, and it's so deeply depressing that there are so many who refuse to listen to them but rather dismiss them as "it's just a game" "it happened 500 years ago" "grow up" and much worse. the amount of callous disregard i've seen for our fellow gamer geeks i've seen over the last week is staggering (and i can only image how much A&M have had to wade through directly). which is why it was so brave of them to speak up. they knew what was coming, but they couldn't stay silent. I admire and respect them so much for it!
I have no interest in this, but always fun to watch Rahdo talk about something he's excited about 😀 Also, Maggie did a wonderful job expressing the pain and grief this sort of thing can cause. Highly highly recommend that video.
